63 replies to this topic

[Mind]

Not so clear to me as to how the ultrasound leads to AB removal. Seems to be indirect. The microbubbles + ultrasound (SUS) open the blood brain barrier, then this stimulates/activates the microglia to fragment and consume AB (page 5). What is the mechanism here? Am I missing something, or is the complete process yet unclear/unknown. Not that it needs to be known to have an effective treatment, just that it is always nice to know.

 

Also, what about the microbubbles? Need to inject those to make it work, correct? Made from a base solution of polyethylene glycol 6000, distearoyl-phosphatidycholine, distearoylphosphatidylethanolamine, and pluronic F68 (a "relatively" non-toxic surfactant). Octofluoropropane is the gas core.

[DeadMeat]

Not so clear to me as to how the ultrasound leads to AB removal. Seems to be indirect. The microbubbles + ultrasound (SUS) open the blood brain barrier, then this stimulates/activates the microglia to fragment and consume AB (page 5). What is the mechanism here? Am I missing something, or is the complete process yet unclear/unknown. Not that it needs to be known to have an effective treatment, just that it is always nice to know.

 

Also, what about the microbubbles? Need to inject those to make it work, correct? Made from a base solution of polyethylene glycol 6000, distearoyl-phosphatidycholine, distearoylphosphatidylethanolamine, and pluronic F68 (a "relatively" non-toxic surfactant). Octofluoropropane is the gas core.

 

They suggested albumin from the blood, that gets into the brain and can bind to Abeta as a possible mechanism. But they still need to confirm it in vivo though.
 

Albumin may have a putative role in mediating Ab uptake by microglia
Phagocytosis of Ab by microglia and perivascular macrophages has been shown to be assisted by blood-borne immune molecules, including Ab-specific antibodies (20). Another Ab-neutralizing molecule is albumin, which is present in the blood and may establish a ”peripheral sink” (25), although some reports argue against such a gradient (26). The fact that Evans blue dye–bound albumin can be detected in the brain after SUS treatment suggested to us that albumin may assist in Ab engulfment not only in the periphery but also in the brain. After BBB disruption by  ultrasound, albumin enters the brain where it is rapidly phagocytosed by glial cells but not by neurons (27). Albumin has also been demonstrated to bind to Ab and inhibit its aggregation (28). To determine whether albumin may facilitate Ab uptake by microglia, we incubated microglial BV-2 cells in culture with Ab42 with and without albumin (10 mg/ml; equivalent to 20% of the  concentration in human serum) and found a 65% increase in Ab42 uptake in the presence of albumin (t test, P = 0.0188) (fig. S3). This result suggested that after SUS treatment, albumin may enter the brain and bind to Ab, facilitating microglial phagocytosis. However, further work needs to be done to demonstrate a role for albumin in Ab uptake by microglia in vivo.

 

And if that really was the mechanism of effect, I assume it wouldn't have worked without the injected microbubbles no.

 

Here, we aim to establish whether a transient opening of the bloodbrain barrier (BBB) using repeated scanning ultrasound (SUS) could assist in Ab clearance. Only one method has been demonstrated to open the BBB noninvasively and repeatedly, that is, nonthermal focused ultrasound coupled with intravenous injection of microbubbles, which are used as ultrasound contrast agents (9). Ultrasound delivery is based on the principle that biologically inert and preformed microbubbles comprising either a lipid or polymer shell, a stabilized gas core, and a diameter of less than 10 mm are systemically administered and  subsequently exposed to noninvasively delivered focused ultrasound pulses (10). Microbubbles within the target volume become “acoustically activated” by what is known as acoustic cavitation. In this process, the microbubbles expand and contract with acoustic pressure rarefaction and compression over several cycles (10). This activity has been associated with a range of effects, including the displacement of the vessel wall through dilation and contraction (11, 12). More specifically, the mechanical interaction between ultrasound, microbubbles, and the vasculature transiently opens tight junctions and facilitates transport across the BBB (13).

[sthira]

For depression, how do you know where to place the device on your head? Or neck?

[pone11]

There are two threads about this now, maybe the moderators of this forum would consider merging them?

 

If there are others please post them here?

 

www.longecity.org/forum/topic/65846-transcranial-ultrasound-stimulation-tus/

 

The original thread was primarily about using ultrasound on the brain to make people happy.   One post in that original thread then branched off to discuss the alzheimer's research.

 

Now by combining them you get a thread with a correct title, but the actual content of most of the first page is completely irrelevant to the topic.   I don't think that is going to encourage people who first encounter the thread to contribute.

[sthira]

"Before starting the study, Hameroff tried using ultrasound on himself. He had a colleague put a standard ultrasound device on his right temple for 15 seconds. Immediately afterward, he felt nothing, but within the next hour or two, his mood noticeably improved."

http://consumer.heal...ter-678645.html

[lourdaud]

This is very intriguing. Has anyone got anything new to report? OpaqueMind, have you had any luck with your device?

[Kalliste]

The bubble part is annoying. I wonder what the effects of repeated US-stimulation alone would be. This should be easy to test. I bet nobody will touch this for human AD patients in a decade

[sthira]

Well, you can buy one for $100 or so and try placing against your right temple for a few seconds a day and hope for the best. Do you feel better? Is it placebo? And if it doesn't work on the depressed brain, maybe try rubbing it on your face for improved skin? Does ultrasound make face skin look younger? Or try rubbing it on hurt joints? Does ultrasound make hurt joints feel better? I'm trying to find the risks of using one for depressed brains, facial skin, hurt joints -- and the risks seem small. Other than the loss of a hundred or so bucks, your time, and potentially dashed hopes if the goddamned thing doesn't work... What other risks might there be? Fried brains? Seems unlikely but who knows..

[YOLF]

 

Yesterday, I tried the 2 MHz ultrasound for the first time. I have to say that I was more alert, more energetic, and overall more enhanced.   For those 6 hours or so, processing was more "amplified." I was working on some web coding exercises and  reading and typing were noticeably faster than usual. In my opinion, there is definite possibility of using transcranial ultrasound for cognitive enhancement. It could be a powerful tool for treating ADD and depression.  I wish the initial effects would be permanent but I think there is also the possibility of gradually increasing baseline functioning. Also just judging on this first time use, I think the effects are stronger than both tDCS and LLLT.

 

The probe diameter is about 1 inch and I stimulated 5 areas on my forehead. At first I tried 30 seconds on one area, but I didn't notice an effect. Then I decided to increase to 1 - 1.5 minutes for each of the 5 regions, and then the stimulating effects were very obvious to me for 6 hours before I needed to rest for an hour.

 

If anyone is interested in trying this, I have found some affordable options. I purchased a Sonotrax Lite 2 Mhz doppler off ebay for $100. Here's an exact link:

 

Sonotrax lite Fetal Heart Doppler

 

 

I like this particular device because the probes are interchangeable. It would be easy to swap a 2 Mhz for a 8 Mhz for instance. The more expensive models have fancy features such as a LCD screen but this is not required for our purposes since the LCD screen is designed to display heart rate. 

 

I have also seen 2 mH portable dopplers for as low as $40:

 

Sonoline B Fetal Heart Doppler, Backlight LCD FDA 2Mhz- USA Seller

Great! excellent experience.

Is there more parameters besides the 2 mhz?

I remember reading an article about the capacity of Ultrasound of inhibiting or activating the neurons (similar to cathodal and anodal in TDCS), apparently that depends on the velocity of application... I need to find that article again.

 

Can you explain velocity of application? The speed of the waves should be the same at the same wavelengths/frequencies, where does velocity come in? Does that mean moving the doppler in a circular motion at precise speeds? I have a sonic facial cleanser and it recommends moving at certain speeds. Don't think it mentions what settings are what frequencies. I used it along my scalp when this study came out the same way I used it for my face and it might have worked. I'll have to repeat it. It's a fourspeed european model presumeably designed for dermatologist to use on patients I think, US models like it apparently require a script, but I think that's more of a marketing thing. I got a good deal on it. I'll let you guys know what it is next time I post here.

[YOLF]

 

 

 

This seems like a low risk procedure, and it would not surprise me to find some osteopath who currently uses it for some kind of "soft" condition.   

 

To asses risk, the next level of experimentation, should test this frequency of ultrasound on various tissues and cells, IMO. Would need to find out if the vibrational/mechanical motion that affects the plaques (breaks it into small pieces, I assume, that can be effectively removed innate systems?) affects other types of structures/tissues in the brain or body.

 

I would also add, that if this is proven safe, I would get it done "tomorrow" (so to speak). Seems like it could be one of the least toxic methods with the least side effects, of clearing plaques from the brain.

 

I have a safe ultra sound device intended for facial cleansing. I think it could be a good lead. There ability to reverse aging in skin is well documented. Mine is covered in curcumin though. Cost was around $60 when I got it. But if we can measure the output, it conducts the vibrations to the skin using brushes of various design to determine transmission efficiency (mild, medium, strong) for different areas of skin, skin types, and whatnot. No silicon required. I use food oils with great success.

[YOLF]

I wonder if the brain is the only organ that could benefit from this?

 

Maybe we should be SUS'ing our entire body once every X number of months/years

 

There are two threads about this now, maybe the moderators of this forum would consider merging them?

 

If there are others please post them here?

 

www.longecity.org/forum/topic/65846-transcranial-ultrasound-stimulation-tus/

Benefits to skin are well proven, though mostly marketed to women and there are lots of look alike devices that don't do the same thing that clouds consumer judgement. It's not widely believed that it works, but I use it. It's also mostly sold as a makeup remover. I obviously don't use it for that. It does make my skin look younger though. Would love one with a bigger head or something like an ultrasound bed.

[YOLF]

The bubble part is annoying. I wonder what the effects of repeated US-stimulation alone would be. This should be easy to test. I bet nobody will touch this for human AD patients in a decade

I've been using my facial cleanser for over a year and they've been around for about a decade and a half now. I haven't heard of any bad results from using it continuously. I haven't been using mine daily though. Maybe a few times a month and when I see skin problems forming.

[YOLF]

Well, you can buy one for $100 or so and try placing against your right temple for a few seconds a day and hope for the best. Do you feel better? Is it placebo? And if it doesn't work on the depressed brain, maybe try rubbing it on your face for improved skin? Does ultrasound make face skin look younger? Or try rubbing it on hurt joints? Does ultrasound make hurt joints feel better? I'm trying to find the risks of using one for depressed brains, facial skin, hurt joints -- and the risks seem small. Other than the loss of a hundred or so bucks, your time, and potentially dashed hopes if the goddamned thing doesn't work... What other risks might there be? Fried brains? Seems unlikely but who knows..

Will try this right now using the clinical strength setting on my US facial cleanser with a curcumin cream I make. Will have to see if I still have the box and manual with the technical details. Will put it in a blog post as it might be considered off topic to this discussion.

[YOLF]

Ok, blogged my use of a clinical grade ultrasonic face cleaner.

[sthira]

Ok, blogged my use of a clinical grade ultrasonic face cleaner.

Thanks for your interesting initial blog. I'm thinking about purchasing one of these myself. No Alzheimer's here, but certainly depression, anxiety, and the desire to continue aging gracefully. You don't mention if you're using 1-, 2-, 3-, or an 8-MHz device, and I suppose you willar some point. As for the facial rejuv aspects, instead of gel, you might try just slitting open an aloe leaf and using aloe as a water-conductor. And there's anecdotal ev around that ultrasound at 2-MHz may help improve absorption rates of your various skin serums and magical creams. Thanks again for your documentation efforts, I'm still on the fence wrt to buying one of these.

[YOLF]

Well it has 4 settings, not sure what they are right now, but I think I did find them at some point, determined that this one has the right ones and never thought about it again. I haven't found the documentation yet, but this machine does improve absorption of creams almost immediately. You can put the creams on and it will leave a shiny slick, then apply the machine on the low setting or any really, and the layer of cream will almost immediately dissipate. It's not like a spinning brush either, there is no loss splatter. I just watched that happen doing my shoulder.

 

I could probably come up with a way to measure the frequency using a dish of water and measuring the relative change of patterns in the water. It's low tech, but it should work. That's if I have to do it though, would rather read it from the manual if it's available. This thing was pretty cheap too, I might just buy another so I can do this two handed, maybe even a spare.

[YOLF]

1 of my machines is 1mHz. I would appreciate feedback as to what this could do to me knowing my health condition at this setting if anyone knows yet before I try this.

I think I would give it a try given your circumstances and let us know what happens.

[ceridwen]

I tried it went to sleep after and when I woke up my tinnitus was a bit less. This is very variable though so don't know if it is connected. Often much less after sleep but this has now persisted for a few hours. How often would it be advisable to use Ultrasound?

[meatsauce]

Does someone have a new link for the device that we should get? The product is not showing up on the links that are on the first page. Thanks!

[YOLF]

If you're looking for something to use at home, one of the ones mentioned here will work.

Edited by YOLF, 02 May 2015 - 01:30 PM.

[BieraK]

Could a more cheap device like this works for doing a transcranial session?
http://www.ebay.com/...=item1c31d987b7


Or this other cheap device of 1mhz?
http://www.ebay.com/...=item3394b33f17
Last device has some "up" and "down" buttons for intesity (?), the first has some similar buttons, I assume that the buttons are for the same thing: "intesity".... (Is intensity different from frequency?)

I'm asking for that devices because are sold in my country, easy to get and low cost.
 

Edited by BieraK, 12 May 2015 - 06:13 AM.

[YOLF]

They are in the same frequency range, so it'll be about the amplitude. I don't see any reason based on the data that would suggest it doesn't work. I tend to favor those that advertise deeper penetration ratings and more frequency settings as we may discover uses for those as well. When I use mine, I tend to use all four settings. Still looking for the box...

[YOLF]

I'm not sure if that one's waterproof though. Says it has an AC adapter but doesn't mention using it wet or having a lithium batter. The lithium battery on mind is a convenient feature and I can use it in the shower with an ear full of water or oil to conduct the frequencies. Shower cleansers also make good replacements for creams that are usually used with them.

 

If you can find a waterproof one, with more speeds, that's the one I'd go with. Where are you from?

[adamh]

If you're looking for something to use at home, one of the ones mentioned here will work.

 

I checked out the blog post but it does not mention names or where to get them. It just says one is 5 speed, one is 4 speed and so on but no info on what brand or where sold. The ebay one might be good. Its certainly cheap enough but I might get one with more bells and whistles.

[Ark]

How about ultra sound therapy on the stmanch and spine?

[YOLF]

 

If you're looking for something to use at home, one of the ones mentioned here will work.

 

I checked out the blog post but it does not mention names or where to get them. It just says one is 5 speed, one is 4 speed and so on but no info on what brand or where sold. The ebay one might be good. Its certainly cheap enough but I might get one with more bells and whistles.

 

The links are there. I used Amazon Affiliate links, so they are probably being blocked by an adblocker of some sort.

How about ultra sound therapy on the stmanch and spine?

Why not? Or are you looking for suggestions?

[Ark]

If you're looking for something to use at home, one of the ones mentioned here will work.

I checked out the blog post but it does not mention names or where to get them. It just says one is 5 speed, one is 4 speed and so on but no info on what brand or where sold. The ebay one might be good. Its certainly cheap enough but I might get one with more bells and whistles.

The links are there. I used Amazon Affiliate links, so they are probably being blocked by an adblocker of some sort.

How about ultra sound therapy on the stmanch and spine?

Why not? Or are you looking for suggestions?

Just checking the effect, thanks.

[Mind_Paralysis]

Most fascinating... It's too bad Lostfalco is MIA, since his experience, if he did receive it, would have been most interesting. I see great potential in this - modulating the brain in a very non-invasive way - theoretically it could be very accurate and very low on side-effects.

 

I'm thinking the ALZ and anxiety/OCD patients may be the first to experience benefits - but once we know more...!

 

Imagine, as an ADD-er... wearing a specialized helmet - at times - composed out of individual modules, composed out of soft-body semi-organic nano-electronics, which you can fold, assemble and disassemble, and adapt to the task at hand - need focus? Use the section for your frontal lobe. Need motivation? Use the section for your posterior cortex.

 

And so on, and so forth. It could be a fantastic kit, for both clinicians and patients.

 

A semi-organic device is definitely the way to go - the soft-body electronics (most of you have this in the OLED-screens of your smart-phones for instance) will make it more durable, and semi-organic battery-packs, such as the ones based on genetically engineered algae, which are being developed as we speak, should be much easier to make soft-body than traditional lithium-batteries.

 

But enough! I'm getting lost in engineering dreams, as always.

 

Has anyone actually tried this, for a mental or neurological condition, here on Longecity? Describe your experiences, please.

Edited by Stinkorninjor, 16 August 2015 - 11:36 AM.

[YOLF]

If you didn't read about my use of this stuff, I use it periodically on my face, for my ears, and all over my scalp to make my skin younger and healthier... I think I said I'd use it weekly, but I haven't... 

 

I do notice some cognitive benefits for at least a day after using it on my scalp and it can cure a breadache (celiac) to some extent  and speed recovery as well as cure other types of headaches if I happen to have them, so maybe it can mix up the AB if nothing else and further expose it to our body's inborn removal processes. I also take sulforaphane/broccoli extract which has an enzyme in it that can apparently remove AB on a daily basis. Still Tau is the problem, but I do believe we have some ability to remove this too. Perhaps with regular supplementation of various protein enzymes we could yield improvements in removal? 

 

There are also whole body vibration machines for more systemic results.

 

For now, this (see below) is what I have at my disposal. The idea would be to shake things up to stimulate the removal of metabolic byproducts and provide more things to help the body remove the now available for chelation or destruction byproducts.

http://www.vitacost....es-240-capsules

http://www.vitacost....tarian-capsules

http://www.swansonvi...LcsMaAqUs8P8HAQ

http://www.vitacost....0-mg-60-vcaps-1

http://www.vitacost....oxide-dismutase

 

I'd be taking the enzymes isotonically or in some cases sublingually to improve the absorption. I know the glutathione is so rapidly absorbed that oral doses can only be detected using tissue samples. The same might be true for SOD which I powder and seem to get good results from.

[natasjlp]

some articles I've been reading on the subject. Certainly interesting: 

 

http://www.futuretim...tm#.VoN8kPmANBf

 

http://www.scienceal...campaign=buffer