42 replies to this topic

[VerdeGo]

So, I tried lemon balm in tea form today. It seemed rather weak (1600 mg of dried leaf material), and I'm guessing capsules or essential oil would have given me a better effect.

 

It was strangely stimulating. About an hour later I rubbed lavender essential oil on my wrist (one drop like usual), but the stimulating effects of the lemon balm overpowered the lavender, and I never entered into a state of pure relaxation or sedation. Kinda weird since the two combined should have activated the benzodiazepine receptors. Six hours later I'm still up, though I haven't tried to sleep. No noticeable effect on mood. Next time I'll either use two teabags or just shell out the $30 for the essential oil. 

 

I'm also confused about nicotine and lemon balm. Apparently lemon balm displaces nicotine from nicotinic receptors, so where is the excess nicotine going if it can't bind to its receptor? If anything, vaping seemed a little less rewarding tonight, but I still got the effects. 

[Groundhog Day]

I've used it in the past for sleep and to cancel out caffeine jitters from morning dark chocolate, when I could tolerate a little caffeine -- I no longer can.

 

It never did much for my chronic insomnia, gave me a weird focused sedation sometimes, sometimes nothing, so I never really used it, but in the last week it's been big for me. I'm now taking much more at 450mg -- 300mg first thing in the morning and another 150mg in the afternoon and it's helped me fall asleep at night and sleep more so I'm going to ride with it for at least 2 months.

 

I also have a long history of anxiety.

 

Just updating my experience. After about a month of this, 450mg a day, I had a strange situation at night where my face and head exploded with muscle twitching, maybe like 1000 twitches in 30 minutes.... that lasted 2 nights, and then spread to throughout my body, fairly consistently, all throughout the day and of various degrees.

 

I did not know of Theanine's relationship with glutamate -- it appears it can raise glutamate:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15279898

 

All I know is that I am now being evaluated for some serious diseases. I was at a fragile point and the theanine may have pushed me over the edge if it was being converted to glutamate and stimulating calcium influx.

[gamesguru]

administration of theanine to mice increased the glutamate concentration in the liver and heart, and not in tumors

what about the Human Brain?

 

stabilizes glutamate concentration in the brain

Our results suggest that l-theanine is effective in ameliorating positive symptoms and sleep quality in schizophrenia. The 1H magnetic resonance spectroscopy findings suggest that l-theanine stabilises the glutamatergic concentration in the brain, which is a possible mechanism underlying the therapeutic effect.

but how?

by activating autoreceptors and downregulating overregulated receptors, i might assume?

L-Theanine has been found to have affinity for all three glutamate receptor subsets with IC₅₀ and K_i values (respectively) of 24.6+/-0.9µM/19.2+/-0.7µM (AMPA), 41.5+/-7.6µM/29.3+/-5.4µM (Kainate), and 347+/-47µM/329+/-44µM (NMDA); these were 80-30,000 fold less potent than the endogenous ligand L-glutamate.^[35]

 

but really, it's complicated

http://examine.com/s...ine/#summary4-3

 

L-theanine administration results in neuroprotection and prevents glutamate receptor agonist-mediated injury in the rat model of cerebral ischemia-reperfusion.
Theanine and glutamate transporter inhibitors enhance the antitumor efficacy of chemotherapeutic agents
Theanine as a glutamate antagonist at a crayfish neuromuscular junction

Edited by gamesguru, 04 September 2015 - 05:37 PM.

[Groundhog Day]

 

administration of theanine to mice increased the glutamate concentration in the liver and heart, and not in tumors

what about the Human Brain?

 

stabilizes glutamate concentration in the brain

Our results suggest that l-theanine is effective in ameliorating positive symptoms and sleep quality in schizophrenia. The 1H magnetic resonance spectroscopy findings suggest that l-theanine stabilises the glutamatergic concentration in the brain, which is a possible mechanism underlying the therapeutic effect.

but how?

by activating autoreceptors and downregulating overregulated receptors, i might assume?

L-Theanine has been found to have affinity for all three glutamate receptor subsets with IC₅₀ and K_i values (respectively) of 24.6+/-0.9µM/19.2+/-0.7µM (AMPA), 41.5+/-7.6µM/29.3+/-5.4µM (Kainate), and 347+/-47µM/329+/-44µM (NMDA); these were 80-30,000 fold less potent than the endogenous ligand L-glutamate.^[35]

 

but really, it's complicated

http://examine.com/s...ine/#summary4-3

 

L-theanine administration results in neuroprotection and prevents glutamate receptor agonist-mediated injury in the rat model of cerebral ischemia-reperfusion.
Theanine and glutamate transporter inhibitors enhance the antitumor efficacy of chemotherapeutic agents
Theanine as a glutamate antagonist at a crayfish neuromuscular junction

 

 

I found this on a holistic blog:

 

l-theanine is an analog of glutamine. Glutamine is first converted into glutamate. Therefore l-theanine is going to be glutamate before it becomes GABA. Glutamate is the precursor to GABA. As discussed in great detail above, if one is not able to convert their glutamate to GABA adequately for the many reasons presented, then one ends up with excess glutamate. If they are able to convert their glutamate to GABA, then this wouldn’t be an issue. Thus, why l-theanine may be beneficial for some people and not others. It depends on whether they are able to get from glutamate to GABA.

 

http://www.holistich...ance-glutamate/

 

 

I'm wondering if Lithium can help reverse the damage:

 

 

Lithium acutely inhibits and chronically up-regulates and stabilizes glutamate uptake by presynaptic nerve endings in mouse cerebral cortex

 

[TruthHurts]

I've used it in the past for sleep and to cancel out caffeine jitters from morning dark chocolate, when I could tolerate a little caffeine -- I no longer can.

It never did much for my chronic insomnia, gave me a weird focused sedation sometimes, sometimes nothing, so I never really used it, but in the last week it's been big for me. I'm now taking much more at 450mg -- 300mg first thing in the morning and another 150mg in the afternoon and it's helped me fall asleep at night and sleep more so I'm going to ride with it for at least 2 months.

I also have a long history of anxiety.

Just updating my experience. After about a month of this, 450mg a day, I had a strange situation at night where my face and head exploded with muscle twitching, maybe like 1000 twitches in 30 minutes.... that lasted 2 nights, and then spread to throughout my body, fairly consistently, all throughout the day and of various degrees.

I did not know of Theanine's relationship with glutamate -- it appears it can raise glutamate:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15279898

All I know is that I am now being evaluated for some serious diseases. I was at a fragile point and the theanine may have pushed me over the edge if it was being converted to glutamate and stimulating calcium influx.

I think I'm having a similar issue.

I had taken, if I'm not mistaken, two cups of coffee and 1050mg of theanine in the course of about 12 hours. After a bowl of yogurt (I think, because of the calcium) I started getting consistent twitching in mostly my toes. I think I've been ingesting somewhere around 1000-4000mg per week, for the past month or so.

[TruthHurts]

Update.

1 day later, still had twitching. Reduced/minimized everything that could increase glutamate and calcium. Twitching slowly ameliorated.

3rd day or so I had 1 cup of coffee with ~200mg l-theanine, and the twitching came back at about 25% of my worst point. Right now (another 3 days later) I'm able to do the same without the twitching.

So I'm thinking my suspected hypercalcemic(ish) state combined with increased glutamate activity from the caffeine + l-theanine was doing a bit of damage. Glutamate overactivity + a lot of calcium = no bueno. That holistichelp.net article helped a ton with this.

Started using a vitamin K2 MK-4 supplement, which should protect my brain further from excess calcium.

TL;DR: Just don't take more l-theanine than necessary, especially if your calcium is too high.

[Mr Serendipity]

Yesterday I tried theanine again, as I have been  using it occasionally as a self hypnosis aid. No calmness like the previous times I used it, just irritability. Theanine is a no go for me now, that irritability was so non relaxing, and it lasted so long as well.

[gamesguru]

Yesterday I tried theanine again, as I have been  using it occasionally as a self hypnosis aid. No calmness like the previous times I used it, just irritability. Theanine is a no go for me now, that irritability was so non relaxing, and it lasted so long as well.

 

Try ordering Japanese tea from an authentic source.  It provides the perfect 1:1 ratio of caffeine to theanine, as well as consistent levels of epicatechin and other serotonin modulators which help to tame the irritability (and other symptoms of excessive alpha-wave activity) of which you complain.

 

When Europe was using small beer as a means of preserving water and often drinking up to 3 liters per day, Asia had discovered pasteurization and the steeping of tea.

[Keizo]

So, I tried lemon balm in tea form today. It seemed rather weak (1600 mg of dried leaf material), and I'm guessing capsules or essential oil would have given me a better effect.

 

It was strangely stimulating. About an hour later I rubbed lavender essential oil on my wrist (one drop like usual), but the stimulating effects of the lemon balm overpowered the lavender, and I never entered into a state of pure relaxation or sedation. Kinda weird since the two combined should have activated the benzodiazepine receptors. Six hours later I'm still up, though I haven't tried to sleep. No noticeable effect on mood. Next time I'll either use two teabags or just shell out the $30 for the essential oil. 

 

I'm also confused about nicotine and lemon balm. Apparently lemon balm displaces nicotine from nicotinic receptors, so where is the excess nicotine going if it can't bind to its receptor? If anything, vaping seemed a little less rewarding tonight, but I still got the effects. 

I can't speak about lemon balm. But it's a known fact that certain sedatives cause paradoxical effects. As an example some people get creative, energetic etc from taking benzodiazepines, and it's not even about euphoria (like might be the case with narcotic painkillers causing similar things). The most famous example is perhaps ambien (zolpidem, altho a benzo analogue) where some people take it and once they get over the tired phase they get energetic and want to do stuff. In fact back in the day I used low dose benzodiazepines to stay awake when my sleep schedule got out of control in order to put it back, it worked better for me than caffeine (caffeine usually makes me want to go to sleep due to the tension). (Note: Benzodiazepines are usually terrible for long-term regular use even at prescribed doses.)

 

Lemon balm is a herb right? So I imagine that gives it complex mechanism, but the thing is even single molecules can be extremely complicated in their effect --- benzodiazepines are very complicated in what they can do.

Not sure if this is up-to-date information but it's interesting:

 

As far as L-theanine I do not agree with it's effects on me, it seems to make my mind cloudy, and sometimes energizing and sometimes sedating.

Edited by Keizo, 20 April 2020 - 07:14 PM.

[DaveX]

Theanine is a mild antagonist of NMDA (glutamate) and a still slightly milder antagonist of AMPA (or the other way around). Not sure if it also raises GABA in addition to that or as part of a cycle of that (as sort of suggested here). Consequently, it has the varying effects, very dependent on one's current subjective state of mind, of these actions, even though they are altogether mild compared to anything else.

It also seems to have a dopaminergic effect and is at the same time protective of dopamine neurons.

Overall, it is a calming effect, however, with at the end of it probably a slightly stimulating or refreshing effect, which feels to me like AMPA coming back into stronger action. I don't find it anything dramatic at all, although I can feel different parts of the spectrum of it. I generally find it increases my well-being and concentration, although it has a very short half-life.

 

When combining it with L-Glycine, I found it can either be confusing or slightly increase the action of both... Glycine and Theanine are partly related in their actions, although I think glycine is just one part in a chain of the actions of Theanine. Generally I would not combine them, except maybe as a cure for alcohol intoxication or hangover, which they are both recommended for as well and which I generally have only positive experience with (though mainly with Glycine).

[Mr Serendipity]

Theanine personally is a no go for me if I can't get consistent effects, and I'm trying to find the balance in my daily morning stack now, rather than take things as and when I need it, i.e. my daily morning stack should give me the balance between calmness and a clear mind throughout the day after taking it once in the morning, no need to take things later on. I also avoid ecgc's ever since I had a very bad experience with them when taking grape seed extract: https://www.longecit...n-cause-anemia/

 

And I don't like caffeine of stimulants in general, the only thing I'll take is a maximum of 2 teaspoons of cocoa in the morning, and even that may be reduced to one teaspoon as I'm experimenting with it along with a couple of new things I'm taking in my stack (as written below).

 

I'm more interested in herbs and spices at the moment, as I've had some great success with turmeric/curcumin extract for balancing my serotonin in the brain. Turmeric has been better for me than the inconsistent results of 5-htp or tryptophan which overloads me and causes brain fog. I've also been waking up not feeling tired or being tired throughout the day, after adding it to my stack. There is a study which says turmeric combats the effects of sleep deprivation, which might be a reason for some of these effects: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/28931469

 

Another thing I'm trialing is this new passionflower complex which has an equivalent of 250mg of passiflora, lemon balm, and avena sativa per tablet. While I can't say which actual ingredient is affecting me, I assume it's the former 2. It makes you very calm, though a bit out of it. However I'm still trialing this, and now experimenting with one tablet in the morning with my stack, rather than more than one tablet taken as and when I need it.

 

While I have hopes for the passionflower complex. Theanine is 100% out for me. And turmeric is definitely a mainstay.

Edited by Jesus is King, 21 April 2020 - 08:01 AM.

[gamesguru]

Theanine is a mild antagonist of NMDA (glutamate)

 

Yes perhaps thats why it enhances the effect of caffeine, like Memantine with Adderall.

 

Again, a Japanese tea provides EGCG and epicatechin, which have proven and anecdotal benefits on overall mood.  You try to strip one ingredient out of a perfect invention and wonder why you beat your head against the wall in frustration?  Wonder no more.

[BlueCloud]

Yes perhaps thats why it enhances the effect of caffeine, like Memantine with Adderall.

 

Again, a Japanese tea provides EGCG and epicatechin, which have proven and anecdotal benefits on overall mood.  You try to strip one ingredient out of a perfect invention and wonder why you beat your head against the wall in frustration?  Wonder no more.

I absolutely LOVE japanese tea, and have a whole collection of various sencha teas ( ariake, midori, etc..) , but despite drinking up to 5 or 6 cups a day, I can’t say I’ve ever felt anything at all from it ( i still drink it for the taste and the other non-anxiolytic benefits) . L-Theanine in contrast does work for me quite often (depending on the brand ). 

Edited by BlueCloud, 24 April 2020 - 07:18 PM.