14 replies to this topic

[twistednerve]

Hello.

I started taking 100mg of ginkgo biloba and the benefits were almost immediate. The longer I am on it, the better I feel, both in mood and in cognitive function.

In fact, I feel ginkgo biloba lifted a very deep seated depression I've been having for many years. And also has improved the cognitive difficulties I've been having (ADHD like symptoms, intrusive thoughts, difficulty recalling and forming memories, slow to complete simple tasks, etc.).

Sadly, I've noticed every time I eat carbohydrates for a duration of six hours after taking ginkgo biloba, I feel extremely sick. Dizzy, disoriented, mental clarity lowers, hands get cold, sometimes I get tremors and a lot of other symptoms resembling hypoglycemia.

Is it safe to still use gingko? I'm not sure if it's blood sugar the issue. I don't have diabetes or any other blood sugar related condition. Since gingko is a MAOI , maybe the issue is not just carbs, but I may need to eat a diet without foods said to interact with MAOI. (tyramine rich foods?). Then perhaps my symptoms are of high blood pressure?

Anyone's input would be appreciated since I would hate to stop the ginkgo. Changing diets is not a problem.

[OneScrewLoose]

The MAOI effect of Ginkgo is completely negligible. Do you have naturally thin blood? Have you looked a nocebo effects? Here's a post in another forum I made:

 

I really think you need to consider nocebo effects. This is not from a place of judgement, I have dealt with many myself, and it doesn't make one's mind weaker. Placebo effects seem to be strong in about 30% of the population, and there seems to be no personality aspects that predispose one to these effects. Not intelligence, willpower, stability, or anything. It seems to be randomly distributed in the population.

Let me tell you about my experiences. After 1 DXM trip, 3 weeks later I started to get bad HPPD (visual distortions). it seemed so strange that one trip, especially from a dissociative instead of a psychedelic, could cause this, but I accepted it. What kept happening though, was that, more and more, any drug I took, no matter the class, made my HPPD worse. Even supplements at one point were contributing. It only stopped, when I convinced myself 100%, that it was a nocebo effect. What people don't realize is that psychogenic/placebo does not mean it's not real. It is a very real, authentic experience that just has a different mechanism. Convincing myself it was nocebo stopped drugs from making it worse, but that didn't fix it. I still have around the same level from before I convinced myself. Strange, no?

I like the idea of being susceptible to placebos though. To me, this indicates, that eventually, perhaps I can have direct effects on my mind that people who aren't susceptible might not be able to have! What seems like a weakness might very well be able to be developed into a strength. This is why I meditate.

Check out this documentary:


Those weren't the only nocebo effects I was having. I was getting increased spasm w/ vocalizations, to the point where I thought I had Tourette's for a while. I still have those spasms, but now it's only when I lay down. I also got increased social anxiety from about everything I took around this period. I knew it was nocebo when Green Tea Extract did that. It was scary, but empowering in the long run, as I knew it was something I could stop, and I did. For context, all of this happened around a nervous breakdown.

For perspective, at one point, for a year, I was convinced that 100% of my problems were psychogenic. This made me happy, as I felt I could 'fix crazy'. I got deeply depressed when I came across convincing evidence that it is probably biological.

A much more recent nocebo effect was CBD. The first 3-5 times I vaped it, it seemed to greatly increase my anxiety at rather small doses. But given its mechanism of action, I became pretty convinced it was nocebo. Once I convinced myself 100%, those effects disappeared, it seemed to help me a bit, and now I take 10x as much.

 

For me, placebo effects are good, it means there's nothing wrong with me, and if I sharpen my mind, perhaps I can take control! I invite you to consider that you are not permanently damaged. Sure, cocaine can change the brain after one or a few uses. But you have to take a mathematical approach to it: For how many people are those effects significant? What is the probability that the one time did this to me? And to reiterate, I'm not saying it's not real; this is often an implication when people take about psychogenic problems. It is 100% happening to you and you are experiencing it and going through it. All I'm saying is that the mechanism would be different, and this empowers you in the long run.

 

What brand is it? How long have you been taking it continuously? Are you on anything else, especially aspirin?

[twistednerve]

@OneScrewLoose,

 

thanks for the reply.

 

I don't think this is a nocebo effect, as I never really experienced any. If anything, I tend to experience a lacking desired effect and only the most common side effects, and mildly. So nothing special in that department for me.

 

I don't know if I have thin blood, I never had a situation where I can't stop bleeding or any sort of random internal bleeding.

 

I'm currently taking:

 

Lithium Carbonate extended release 450mg each taken in separate doses

L-theanine 100 to 200mg one time a day

5-HTP 100mg one time a day

Inositol 200mg one time a day 

Folic acid 800mcg one time a day

Chromium picolinate 1mg one time a day

Fenugreek extract, around 1g one time a day

Fish oil, around 1g one time a day

Pantoprazole 80mg each taken in  separate doses

 

About two times a week, I also take around 500mg L-tyrosine.

 

Depending on insomnia and anxiety levels, I might take up to 0.50mg Xanax/alprazolam per day.

 

I've been taking gingko biloba for about two weeks, but haven't taken it continuously (as in, every day. I skip some days to grab a better hold of the effect it's having on me)

 

and the brand is Smart Powders.

Edited by twistednerve, 06 May 2015 - 10:53 PM.

[Luminosity]

Haven't heard of your problem.  Now sure how gingko would interact with the other things you are on.  I took Gaia Organics liquid alcohol Gingko extract. I took it on an empty stomach, but not after dinner.  It worked o.k. for me.  Sometimes the form and/or brand can make a difference.  I'd recommend that one.   Take it alone on an empty stomach and wait twenty to thirty minutes to take or eat anything else, except water, so you'll know what the deal is.   

Edited by Luminosity, 07 May 2015 - 05:58 AM.

[OneScrewLoose]

This might help:
http://bit.ly/1cpl6CI

It looks like there's a potential significant interaction between the lithium and the ginkgo.

Do not, under any circumstances, go off the lithium in favor of the ginkgo. If you need to go off the lithium for the ginkgo, talk to your doctor about changing to something like Lamictal , which he will probably be open to.

[twistednerve]

Lithium interacts with most things moderately on that website. Lithium does hit a lot of things so I'm careful about dosing and usually aim lower.

However I don't think this is a lithium interaction issue, as I've taken ginkgo without lithium on Saturday and felt specially sick. That day I had a lot of carbs for lunch and ate sweets throughout the day. It could be hyperglycemia as ginkgo affects insulin in random ways.

I'm not sure, though. Going to just control my diet and lower the dose a little bit more.

Thanks, OneScrewLoose

[Godof Smallthings]

You are taking so many things it is difficult to give reliable advice.

[twistednerve]

I been just on lithium since Wednesday and also reduced the dosage by half. Let's see how I feel on ginkgo on Sunday.

[OneScrewLoose]

My fear is that something else is effecting you and it's coinciding with when you take Ginkgo. I've never heard of these kinds of symptoms from Ginkgo. But from some of that other stuff? Definitely. Stop the Ginkgo for a week and see if they come back at all. Because if they do, then you need to talk to your doctor. Not doing what I just mentioned could put your health at risk.

[twistednerve]

Yeah, took the gingko today with no other medication. Felt slightly dizzy. After lunch I felt dizzier. Now I just snacked on some chocolate and a coke and I feel it coming, again. Definetely blood sugar, dunno if it's hypo or hyperglycemia.

 

I probably am prone to diabetes since I had really high blood sugar when I was overweight. Ginkgo is said to affect insulin, so I guess I should just quit carbs or quit ginkgo. 

 

 

And no, it's not something else as I take that stack for a loooong time, now.

Edited by twistednerve, 09 May 2015 - 05:57 PM.

[Luminosity]

Lithium might remain in your system for quite a while.  I'm not familiar with it; but it seems like a powerful drug.   

 

Should you be snacking on chocolate and a coke?  What is your diet and routine like?  What don't we know?  Any recreational substances?  Tobacco? 

[twistednerve]

No recreational drugs. Not a smoker, never drink alcohol.

 

I have a weakness for chocolate and Coca-Cola like beverages (carbonated, with sugar and caffeine) and sometimes both snack and binge on that.

 

I have a high protein diet, but often I go on carb binges... Which I attribute to lithium.

 

 

[Luminosity]

Thanks for the info.  Glad to hear you don't do drugs, tobacco and alcohol.  

 

Do you restrict carbs?   I think that low or no carb diets are not healthy and lead to binges.  Unless an M.D. told you to restrict carbs, I'd carefully transition to eating the more digestible carbs, like rice, tapioca and sweet potatoes.  Then go back to other carbs until you eat a normal amount of carbs.  They are needed for serotonin, among other things.  I don't think that a lot of cola and chocolate are good for you.

 

Why are you on a high protein diet?  Who suggested it?  If you eat more protein than you need, you strain your kidneys.   

 

I don't know much about lithium.  I hope you will talk to a doctor who does and maybe patient support groups.

 

Food for thought:  sometimes people with mental illness, among others, are attracted to diets and routines that aren't healthy.   Mental illness thrives in an acidic environment nurtured by bad habits.  The illness actually wants the patient not to be healthy and have acidic blood.  So it whispers bad ideas into their heads, usually much worse ideas than you have had.  Think about where impulses may be coming from.  

 

The more you tell us, the more use we can be.  

 

You have signs that your kidneys and related organs might be strained.  Be careful.  Seek out moderation and healthy food.  Eat vegetables and fruits.  Here's link to my thread on Chinese medicine:  

 

http://www.longecity...inese-medicine/

 

The thread below also seems possibly related.  It shows how an extreme diet coupled with a substance can hurt some people's kidneys:

 

http://www.longecity...nd-proteinuria/

 

_________________________

 

I'm not even done editing this and someone used the anonymous "feedback" system to say it "needs references"  Not a fan of that particular system.  Since it's been in place, participation on the site is way down.  When I do post, which is far less often, I often feel stung or sniped at.  Yes I am a sensitive person, as were many quality people who used to use this site.    

 

I've been studying natural health for over thirty years and have over fifty years of life experience.  I myself followed extreme diets and did other things I would not do again. I share my experience with those who want it. If you don't, you don't have to follow my advice.  

 

 

Edited by Luminosity, 11 May 2015 - 03:16 AM.

[twistednerve]

I've been worrying about my kidneys, yes. I don't do that much protein often, just when my appetite for carbs is too high. Higher protein intake makes appetite lower. 

 

I don't restrict carbs, no. I eat more than I should, actually.

 

Lithium + mineral supplementation + various aminos + high protein intake last year (was working out a lot. and eating more protein than I should, maybe) made me worried, so I'm now going to do every test I can to see if my kidneys are fine.

 

I'm not sure why ginkgo biloba was causing that, but it definetely was the ginkgo. I'm gonna switch to a better brand and see what happens.

 

[Luminosity]

By their own admission, M.D.'s lab tests for kidney issues can't spot early stages of kidney failure, let alone more subtle issues.  I'd look think about going to a good acupuncturist/Chinese herbalist and diet and lifestyle according to Chinese Medicine.