234 replies to this topic

[Dakman]

Your attitude and what vibe I get from your online personality here has lead me to believe you'd lie about this.

 

Sorry if that hurts 

[shadowhawk]

It doesn't.  Simply more ad hominem stuff wich is typical. 

[Dakman]

You seem to attract that from everyone that comes in contact with you

 

I'm sure it's not your fault though

 

I mean, how could it be you?

 

There's no way, you're always right and everything you say is awesome and unquestionable 

[shadowhawk]

More of the same nonsense.  You have said absolutely nothing meaningful but make personal attacks as is typical.  We have many here at longecity who think this kind of thing is debate.  Not all but there is a bunch that attack any theist that says anything positive about religion. Just read these posts.  Go look in the mirror.

[The Brain]

Attacking the positive???, looks to me it's just the negative that's being discussed, and the negative is some pretty nasty shit.

As usual as like every other christian I've met they want to hide the negative aspects of their religion, and it's every sect, the more fringe the worse it is, the more secretive, the more extreme the values and rules the more they want to hide.

Edited by The Brain, 29 May 2015 - 01:21 AM.

[shadowhawk]

This is proof of something like racism hate speech and bigotry nothing against God or reasons to believe in God.  It says absolutely nothing.

[sthira]

God in the Christian view values respects allows and created free will in man. We get to choose and He does not keep us from doing so. If He did we would not have free will. That this fits reality with its limited determinism is obvious. One aspect of free choice is we get to choose what is against the ethics God has revealed to us.

Does God already know what we decided to choose with our free will?

It is against Gods ethics to molest children and God does not turn us into robots without a choice to prevent us from doing so. That being said, we are accountable for our choices and we will be judged for them with consequences, We also get to choose to follow God and not molest children.

Does God already know that some people will freely choose to molest children? Who will be judged and how they'll be punished are already known to God?

If God already knows, yet won't act because he values free will over child molestation, is God all-powerful?

[shadowhawk]

Free will means you chose between choices.  It does not mean you have unlimited choices.  You do not know beforehand what you will choose because the choice is freely made.  You are not forced to choose A. or B..  Foreknowledge of which choices another is going to make is something completely different.  No human has that ability or can know what is freely chosen.  This is related to time.  Time is moving and becomes from one moment to the next.  Therefore we can experience choice because it (the choice) hasn't taken place yet.  Suppose we were outside time, then we would know what took place in time, we would have foreknowledge.  We exist within time and God is greater than time and created it exists both within time and outside it.  God is timeless yet he deals with creation through time.  We choose but He knows what we are going to choose.  We experience choice but God knows what we are going to choose.  God  is also within time and deals with us in time.  He foreknows what we are going to choose and in time asks us to choose.  In this we are accountable for our choices and if we choose to use the good wrongly we will be making the choice and are accountable for it.  A child is good and so is the person who is an adult human.  That adult human can choose freely to do evil and molest the child.  He or She will be justly accountable for that act and in time will be judged for it.  I would like to carry this on farther but my daughter is graduating so I will come back later.  First things first. 

[The Brain]

Wow, you know all this about god but you don't know if he's even real

Lol

Edited by The Brain, 29 May 2015 - 04:22 AM.

[sthira]

Did God create a bad situation for himself? That is, he knows some people will molest children. And while he doesn't want that to happen, he already knows it will happen. Yet he values perpetrator free will over child safety. He'll deal with perps later? He already knows how he'll deal with them?

So what is the point of your prayer to God? If people molest children, God already knows it, and he'll deal with them later, why pray? Isn't prayer like this going against the values of free will over child safety that God has chosen for us?

Are we toys or play things to God? He hopes we'll behave, already knows we won't... Totally confusing this all powerful and loving God. Certainly you must understand why people wonder and doubt? I mean, wouldn't you be seriously deranged if you didn't question God's actions? Maybe God wants us to reject him, and maybe God loves atheists the most because they see right through this mess he created? And maybe what that mess is is a godless, pointless, meaningless, value neutral universe? Or: unless we attribute God to this place; unless we attribute a point to existence; unless we attribute a meaning to life; unless we attribute value to the universe, then none of it exists. God doesn't exist unless we make it up, nor does meaning, values, laws... None of it exists until we create it. We create these to serve us, when they stop serving us, we let them go. That's Wittgenstein's point (quoted either in this thread or another, I forgot..)

Edited by sthira, 29 May 2015 - 05:07 AM.

[The Brain]

"Did God create a bad situation for himself? That is, he knows some people will molest children. And while he doesn't want that to happen, he already knows it will happen. Yet he values perpetrator free will over child safety. He'll deal with perps later? He already knows how he'll deal with them?"



Regarding this comment, god would also know that these victims he allows will be seriously negatively affected to the point as we know some will go on to abuse others, god has set up these victims to be first abused then be abusers creating a vicious circle of sexual abuse.

god has a sick fascination with the dark side of sex, I'm leaning towards believing that god is a bit of a pervert actually

[sthira]

Or maybe God just doesn't exist? We're on our own here? The world is just so sad. So much useless suffering. I'm very sorry for you, Brain. I wish I could relieve your suffering. And I wish all useless suffering would snap out of existence. Unfortunately as we both know, prayer doesn't help much with these matters unless that prayer is followed up by human action. There seems to be no there there when it comes to God and the question of sentient suffering.

[The Brain]

Unfortunately the concept of god causes suffering without him even being real

[Dakman]

Yes, we all have to suffer Shadowhawk's defense of a psychotic child abusing invisible friend 

[shadowhawk]

Yes, we all have to suffer Shadowhawk's defense of a psychotic child abusing invisible friend 

Nonsense, you must be looking in the mirror.

[shadowhawk]

Or maybe God just doesn't exist? We're on our own here? The world is just so sad. So much useless suffering. I'm very sorry for you, Brain. I wish I could relieve your suffering. And I wish all useless suffering would snap out of existence. Unfortunately as we both know, prayer doesn't help much with these matters unless that prayer is followed up by human action. There seems to be no there there when it comes to God and the question of sentient suffering.

It is just nature and the material god created it that way.  You or what is left of you, is going to be burned in this gods hell when the sun expands and consumes the earth.  You will be baked long before that.  Are you saying this god does not exist?  It makes sense unless ...

[The Brain]

Proof god is going to expand the sun please?

[Dakman]

Oooooooh, maybe that's what global warming really is, that twisted prick god is going to fry us all slowly for his viewing pleasure 

[sthira]

Or maybe God just doesn't exist? We're on our own here? The world is just so sad. So much useless suffering. I'm very sorry for you, Brain. I wish I could relieve your suffering. And I wish all useless suffering would snap out of existence. Unfortunately as we both know, prayer doesn't help much with these matters unless that prayer is followed up by human action. There seems to be no there there when it comes to God and the question of sentient suffering.

It is just nature and the material god created it that way. You or what is left of you, is going to be burned in this gods hell when the sun expands and consumes the earth. You will be baked long before that. Are you saying this god does not exist? It makes sense unless ...

But how is this uncaring, unknown God useful to you in any way? You say God created nature -- cruel, harsh, short -- and for all of our misery and suffering, for what? Why? Why so much useless pain and suffering? What loving, powerful, knowing God treats his creations this way?

If you were going to create a tiny universe in a Petri dish is this what you would create? A world of explosions and death punctuated by glimpses of kindness?

If you were God over your grand daughter and could help give her a happy, peaceful, kind life filled with love and goodness, wouldn't you give this life over a life filled with useless suffering that ends in eventual cold death? Others here are asking, quite reasonably: what God who permits the rape of babies is in any way good to us? Your God must stand over the pit of burning babies and explain, Weisel said.

If I was God and had control over the sun and the stars and the vast explosions in time and space, I'd make things nicer. We get that you love to make big blasts, God, and that you're really keen to make all sentient life uselessly suffer, then die painful deaths. But where is happiness, goodness, kindness -- unless we stupid flawed humans create it ourselves? Where is medicine unless we create it ourselves? Where is art and dance and literature and music unless we create it ourselves? Thanks for your sun and your vast fury, God, but what is your point? Why do we exist? To worship you? You, God, give us the sun and stars and tiny glimpses into what is transcendent, then you take them away, explode them, and make us pine away in brief, pointless moments of existence. Why? Why not just be cool?

Your God may be all powerful and will implode and explode the universe again and again. But your God seems more hateful and cruel, full of fire and pain than any universe I would create myself if I had the powers of all-knowingness, all-powerfulness, all-loveliness.

[shadowhawk]

Proof god is going to expand the sun please?

Google it.  It will do you good.

[shadowhawk]

Oooooooh, maybe that's what global warming really is, that twisted prick god is going to fry us all slowly for his viewing pleasure 

No,that is your mythology.  Not God bit god will be doing it, you know the materialistic creator.

[shadowhawk]

Sthira: But how is this uncaring, unknown God useful to you in any way? You say God created nature -- cruel, harsh, short -- and for all of our misery and suffering, for what? Why? Why so much useless pain and suffering? What loving, powerful, knowing God treats his creations this way?

Not God who is the creator spirit but god who is the creator physical.  Your god.  The god who created pain and suffering.  The god who is cruel, harsh and promises death.  Your god whom you call reality and is going to consume you in the hell of the sun before eternal cold and  darkness.  There is no hope for all who enter here.  Stop complaining because he doesn’t care.  
 

If you were going to create a tiny universe in a Petri dish is this what you would create? A world of explosions and death punctuated by glimpses of kindness?

Well my God is going to do something about it and says this is not the way it is supposed to be.  Your god is not  going to do something about it and your fate is set.  Don’t worry about what you want or would do, he doesn’t care.  I am sure (not) he appreciates your faith.

If you were God over your grand daughter and could help give her a happy, peaceful, kind life filled with love and goodness, wouldn't you give this life over a life filled with useless suffering that ends in eventual cold death? Others here are asking, quite reasonably: what God who permits the rape of babies is in any way good to us? Your God must stand over the pit of burning babies and explain, Weisel said.

I had a Brother who I loved more than any other person.  He was killed in a horrible industrial accident.  I was very angry at God.  He had a wife and three young children.  I saw his body all crushed up in the machinery.  Why God!  I called God every name I knew.  About six months later I snapped out of my anger at God.  If there is no God my brother does not stand a snow balls chance in hell.  If your god is god there is absolutely no hope.  I reasonably ask you what is your god going to do about it.  Your god is the burning pit and we all, including babies will be in it. Explain.

If I was God and had control over the sun and the stars and the vast explosions in time and space, I'd make things nicer. We get that you love to make big blasts, God, and that you're really keen to make all sentient life uselessly suffer, then die painful deaths. But where is happiness, goodness, kindness -- unless we stupid flawed humans create it ourselves? Where is medicine unless we create it ourselves? Where is art and dance and literature and music unless we create it ourselves? Thanks for your sun and your vast fury, God, but what is your point? Why do we exist? To worship you? You, God, give us the sun and stars and tiny glimpses into what is transcendent, then you take them away, explode them, and make us pine away in brief, pointless moments of existence. Why? Why not just be cool?

But - reality, you arn’t even close to being either God/god.  So what you think does not matter when it comes to playing God/god.  Did your god invent medicine and kindness?  Your god is given credit for music, dance and literature?   Wow, what faith.  My God understands Intelligent Design and His followers have produced all those things in great abundance.  We believe we were made in the image of God the Creator. Christians have been in the forefront of medicine, hospitals, charity, kindness and intellectual pursuits.  And, your God, what did he inspire?

Your God may be all powerful and will implode and explode the universe again and again. But your God seems more hateful and cruel, full of fire and pain than any universe I would create myself if I had the powers of all-knowingness, all-powerfulness, all-loveliness.

But you don’t have those powers, even a little bit.  Yet you want to accuse God for not doing it right?  In fact if you were going to do it, all would be well.  Are you serious?

If your complaints reflected your physical god, then you would accept reality as god created it.  What you describe fits in well with your world view and god.  However you sound more like a Theist.  There are rights and wrongs to be corrected and changed.  There is sin and hate and cruelty.  The world is full of fire and pain.  My God has a plan to correct all that.  Your god; tough that is just the way it is.  We choose our world views by faith.

[Dakman]

 

Proof god is going to expand the sun please?

Google it.  It will do you good.

 

So is god responsible for all the stars that have and will in the future supernova then ???

[The Brain]

When was the last time you heard of a christian church leader stand before their congregation and appeal to the children to come forward if they were the victims of sexual abuse ?

When was the last time you heard of a christian church leader stand before their congregation and appeal to the sexual abusers in their midst to come forward to stop the suffering of children?

When was the last time you heard of a christian church leader stand before their congregation and appeal to them to join him in prayer with god and ask for an end to the suffering of children at the hands of child sex abusers ?

When was the last time you saw christians with placards protesting against child sex abusers for their sins?

Can anyone answer these questions ???

Are these questions to hard or do they raise an uncomfortable issue of christians not wanting to address sexual abuse of their children ?

[sthira]

It's probably unfair to single out Christians as more child abusive and dismissive of child sex crimes than the population in general. Do you have data? Were you yourself molested by a priest? I know a few who were. It's awful.

Meanwhile, @Shadowhawk:

I'm asking questions that clearly you cannot answer. No one can answer them. The questions are as old as anything in human history: who are we, why are we here, do our lives have meaning, does a creator exist, where is divinity in such a troubled little world?

You appear to suggest two gods: one for me that's evidently bad (this creator physical God), and one for you that's evidently good (the creator spirit God).

But I don't claim to know much of anything about the two Gods you've offered. I don't believe or disbelieve in either; so you're incorrect to call either God my own Sthira God.

So maybe answers to our deep questions should come from the Gods themselves, if they exist, and not from us. We should hear from the Gods in clear ways that we all can easily understand. Why is this idea so ludicrous to you? You say God appeared one time long ago through Jesus Christ, so why not appear again here in modern times? Or are you in waiting? We raise ourselves up, we question, and why shouldn't we? And if Gods don't answer, why is it so preposterous to conclude that Gods probably don't exist? If the Gods are in fact answering -- and only your particular tribe of folks is hearing -- but the rest of us don't get any answers, well, how is that our mistake? Maybe the Gods' communication skills should encompass us all?

This is why I only half-jokingly ask the Gods to post their comments here. Why not, dear Gods? Isn't it past time for the Gods to modernize their messages here in this troubled, interconnected world? The ancient God of the bible is not very relevant to most people's modern lives.

The ancient biblical arguments justifying God's negligent behavior in the presence of so much useless suffering are not satisfying to most people. There are more child sex slaves suffering today, for example, than in any other time in history. That God chooses the free will of perpetrators over child safety is beyond awful. How can anyone belong to a sect that says such a God or Gods -- either the creator spirit God or the creator physical God -- is worthy of belief? All knowing, powerful and loving -- where's your evidence in the face of so much useless suffering?

Again Wiesel: "All the words in all the mouths of the philosophers and psychologists are not worth the silent tears of that child and his mother, who live their own death twice."

[shadowhawk]

 

 

Proof god is going to expand the sun please?

Google it.  It will do you good.

 

So is god responsible for all the stars that have and will in the future supernova then ???

 

 

Yes both God/god are involved.  That is nothing compared to the Big Bang with its beginning. 
 

[shadowhawk]

 

 

When was the last time you heard of a christian church leader stand before their congregation and appeal to the children to come forward if they were the victims of sexual abuse ?

When was the last time you heard of a christian church leader stand before their congregation and appeal to the sexual abusers in their midst to come forward to stop the suffering of children?

When was the last time you heard of a christian church leader stand before their congregation and appeal to them to join him in prayer with god and ask for an end to the suffering of children at the hands of child sex abusers ?

When was the last time you saw christians with placards protesting against child sex abusers for their sins?

Can anyone answer these questions ???

Are these questions to hard or do they raise an uncomfortable issue of christians not wanting to address sexual abuse of their children ?

 

 

Can't get off of child abuse can you?  Weird I wonder why.  By the way i know of no children sexually abused by Christians I know, mine haven't been.  The children I know of, have been abused by school teachers, parents and relatives.  I am not going to engage your endless suggestion that Christians abuse children.  That is bull.  Shall we ask over and again,  when was the last time you abused children, never accepting the answer..  Get real.
 

Edited by shadowhawk, 03 June 2015 - 04:16 AM.

[shadowhawk]

It's probably unfair to single out Christians as more child abusive and dismissive of child sex crimes than the population in general. Do you have data? Were you yourself molested by a priest? I know a few who were. It's awful.

Meanwhile, @Shadowhawk:

I'm asking questions that clearly you cannot answer. No one can answer them. The questions are as old as anything in human history: who are we, why are we here, do our lives have meaning, does a creator exist, where is divinity in such a troubled little world?

You appear to suggest two gods: one for me that's evidently bad (this creator physical God), and one for you that's evidently good (the creator spirit God).

But I don't claim to know much of anything about the two Gods you've offered. I don't believe or disbelieve in either; so you're incorrect to call either God my own Sthira God.

So maybe answers to our deep questions should come from the Gods themselves, if they exist, and not from us. We should hear from the Gods in clear ways that we all can easily understand. Why is this idea so ludicrous to you? You say God appeared one time long ago through Jesus Christ, so why not appear again here in modern times? Or are you in waiting? We raise ourselves up, we question, and why shouldn't we? And if Gods don't answer, why is it so preposterous to conclude that Gods probably don't exist? If the Gods are in fact answering -- and only your particular tribe of folks is hearing -- but the rest of us don't get any answers, well, how is that our mistake? Maybe the Gods' communication skills should encompass us all?

This is why I only half-jokingly ask the Gods to post their comments here. Why not, dear Gods? Isn't it past time for the Gods to modernize their messages here in this troubled, interconnected world? The ancient God of the bible is not very relevant to most people's modern lives.

The ancient biblical arguments justifying God's negligent behavior in the presence of so much useless suffering are not satisfying to most people. There are more child sex slaves suffering today, for example, than in any other time in history. That God chooses the free will of perpetrators over child safety is beyond awful. How can anyone belong to a sect that says such a God or Gods -- either the creator spirit God or the creator physical God -- is worthy of belief? All knowing, powerful and loving -- where's your evidence in the face of so much useless suffering?

Again Wiesel: "All the words in all the mouths of the philosophers and psychologists are not worth the silent tears of that child and his mother, who live their own death twice."

On one level it is simple.  If there is a God you are not going to be the one who determines what or how He does things because frankly such a thought is laughable.  You are doing very little about the problems you complain about.  So I am a Christian and I believe there is a Christian God who in fact loves us and cares much more than you do about issues you raised and many more.  What I am interested in is how He is going to solve the problems that neither you or the god of the atheist will solve.  And that is an issue very deep and great.  Are you interested in investigating whether there may be an answer or is this just getting off crying in our beer?   There is a process going on here from our space/time perspective. 

[The Brain]

"I am not going to engage your endless suggestion that Christians abuse children. That is bull"


Are you for fucking real???, you're sounding crazier than Old Fool now...

[shadowhawk]

"I am not going to engage your endless suggestion that Christians abuse children. That is bull"


Are you for fucking real???, you're sounding crazier than Old Fool now...

Quite an overreaction.  Something very weird is going on here.