234 replies to this topic

[shadowhawk]

Didn't God create "the materialistic God"?

We need no "objective basis for morality." We protect as many people as we can through laws we create for ourselves, by ourselves. This has nothing to do with "each man does what is right in his own eyes." We live in a society; we attempt to protect people from harming themselves and others. God remains absent.

In your view god of materialism only, created God.  God created the material world but not the god of the material world which obviously is not a necessary being having come into existence from something else. 

 

If man creates his own laws then each man does what is right in his own eyes.  Take Nazi Germany for example but there are many more.

[sthira]

^^ If God didn't create the "material God" as you say, then what did?

If people don't create laws, then who does?

[shadowhawk]

You, Shadowhawk, write: "God will intervene and already has..." Fine, I believe you. But now what? When is the intervention going to happen? Where? How? Meanwhile, as we wait for God to intervene, we must look out for ourselves and do our best in the face of a world often filled with useless suffering. We create laws, we create medicine, we create art, literature, science, philosophy, religion -- all of it we create for ourselves, on our own, without God, in part to protect us from the useless suffering that accompanies our existence. Meanwhile, God remains absent. Silent. Nothing. We wait for God's intervention. Ok, fine. Whenever you're ready, God. But while we're waiting, we'll make our own laws to protect our children from our own molesters.

Yes because God didn't make us blow up dolls who could do nothing and we have free choice, we can choose the good or evil.  What is the good?  Gods will and God himself.  What is the evil?  Choosing against God.  Man has used literature, philosophy, religion and innumerable other things in evil ways.  We are not our own saviors.  Choice involves amog other things, time to choose.

[shadowhawk]

God created the material world which itself needs creation.  So God did not create a material, self creating god.  Some laws come from God such as the Tao.  They are moral laws.  There is civil law which are laws such as speeding laws which we use to control an orderly society.  There are other kinds of law but is beyond the scope of our topic here.

[sthira]

At least you're consistent. That is, you're maintaining that God values free will over protecting children from sex predators. In this case, plainly God is wrong (or "evil" as you assert) and so we must establish our own laws to protect the rights of children.

What is "good;" what is "evil"? These are abstract terms used to indicate decisions that individuals and groups make in the world within the contexts of societies. We choose for ourselves, and our godless answers are in a continuous process. God, if God exists, remains mute.

[sthira]

God created the material world which itself needs creation. So God did not create a material, self creating god. Some laws come from God such as the Tao. They are moral laws. There is civil law which are laws such as speeding laws which we use to control an orderly society. There are other kinds of law but is beyond the scope of our topic here.

So are you saying that God created the material world, kinda kickstarted the whole universe, then let it do its own thing?

Are you also saying that God created some things (the material world) but not other things (a material God)? The material God created itself? So, if the material God can create itself, can the the universe create itself?

Further, you say some laws are created by God and others are not. How do we determine which laws were created by God and which laws were not? Have we ever been mistaken?

[shadowhawk]

At least you're consistent. That is, you're maintaining that God values free will over protecting children from sex predators. In this case, plainly God is wrong (or "evil" as you assert) and so we must establish our own laws to protect the rights of children.

What is "good;" what is "evil"? These are abstract terms used to indicate decisions that individuals and groups make in the world within the contexts of societies. We choose for ourselves, and our godless answers are in a continuous process. God, if God exists, remains mute.

I could go into a long discussion of various laws, distinctions, where they overlap and other aspects.  Some laws can in fact be evil and we have seen many examples of this.  Why do I call them evil and make a moral judgement on them?  They were created in exactly the way you say moral laws are created.  In your view they are good.  What is morality based upon?

[shadowhawk]

 

God created the material world which itself needs creation. So God did not create a material, self creating god. Some laws come from God such as the Tao. They are moral laws. There is civil law which are laws such as speeding laws which we use to control an orderly society. There are other kinds of law but is beyond the scope of our topic here.

So are you saying that God created the material world, kinda kickstarted the whole universe, then let it do its own thing?

Are you also saying that God created some things (the material world) but not other things (a material God)? The material God created itself? So, if the material God can create itself, can the the universe create itself?

Further, you say some laws are created by God and others are not. How do we determine which laws were created by God and which laws were not? Have we ever been mistaken?

 

 

I said God created the material world and it was good.  He gave Humans limited free choice.  We have taken the good world and chosen to use it wrongly.  He gave us moral laws but gave us the ability to create a building code for example.  There are different kinds of law as I said, but they are different and unless you can't see the difference I don't find traffic laws as interesting as the moral code here.
 

[sthira]

I agree with you that some laws can be wrong, and of course we have seen many historical and current examples of bad legislation. This has nothing to do with God.

We create laws for ourselves for myriad reasons. We create them to protect children from sexual predators, for example. We create our own laws to protect people from harming themselves and harming others. We -- not God -- create laws in societies because we are attempting to maintain some semblance of order in a chaotic, godless world. God, if God exists, appears to have nothing to do with any of our activities.

[shadowhawk]

[sthira]

God created the material world which itself needs creation. So God did not create a material, self creating god. Some laws come from God such as the Tao. They are moral laws. There is civil law which are laws such as speeding laws which we use to control an orderly society. There are other kinds of law but is beyond the scope of our topic here.

So are you saying that God created the material world, kinda kickstarted the whole universe, then let it do its own thing?

Are you also saying that God created some things (the material world) but not other things (a material God)? The material God created itself? So, if the material God can create itself, can the the universe create itself?

Further, you say some laws are created by God and others are not. How do we determine which laws were created by God and which laws were not? Have we ever been mistaken?

I said God created the material world and it was good. He gave Humans limited free choice. We have taken the good world and chosen to use it wrongly. He gave us moral laws but gave us the ability to create a building code for example. There are different kinds of law as I said, but they are different and unless you can't see the difference I don't find traffic laws as interesting as the moral code here.

If people can fashion laws to create a building code or to keep traffic orderly, why can't people also create laws to protect some people from trampling on the rights of other people? Why is God necessary to tell us it's wrong to sexually molest a child, for example? Can't we just figure out these limits on negative behavior on our own, without God?

[shadowhawk]

I agree with you that some laws can be wrong, and of course we have seen many historical and current examples of bad legislation. This has nothing to do with God.

We create laws for ourselves for myriad reasons. We create them to protect children from sexual predators, for example. We create our own laws to protect people from harming themselves and harming others. We -- not God -- create laws in societies because we are attempting to maintain some semblance of order in a chaotic, godless world. God, if God exists, appears to have nothing to do with any of our activities.

 

In fact God has much to do with the activities of man and we are in the middle of this process.  If what is moral what we create in our own eyes, then we have not escaped chaos, we are in it.

 

[shadowhawk]

 

 

 

God created the material world which itself needs creation. So God did not create a material, self creating god. Some laws come from God such as the Tao. They are moral laws. There is civil law which are laws such as speeding laws which we use to control an orderly society. There are other kinds of law but is beyond the scope of our topic here.

So are you saying that God created the material world, kinda kickstarted the whole universe, then let it do its own thing?

Are you also saying that God created some things (the material world) but not other things (a material God)? The material God created itself? So, if the material God can create itself, can the the universe create itself?

Further, you say some laws are created by God and others are not. How do we determine which laws were created by God and which laws were not? Have we ever been mistaken?

I said God created the material world and it was good. He gave Humans limited free choice. We have taken the good world and chosen to use it wrongly. He gave us moral laws but gave us the ability to create a building code for example. There are different kinds of law as I said, but they are different and unless you can't see the difference I don't find traffic laws as interesting as the moral code here.

If people can fashion laws to create a building code or to keep traffic orderly, why can't people also create laws to protect some people from trampling on the rights of other people? Why is God necessary to tell us it's wrong to sexually molest a child, for example? Can't we just figure out these limits on negative behavior on our own, without God?

 

Yes, we can have a Nazi Germany and if it was not for carpet bombing Germany we can have a Nazi world.  We may yet.  Your statement fits right in with that.  Don't forget what they  did to women and children.  We are living in the middle of a similar history right now.

 

[sthira]

^^ We could have lived in a Nazi world, but we don't. We may yet live in a worse world than that, or we may not. It's up to us to decide. God has nothing to do with any of it. God was absent during the Nazi German crimes; God remains absent to us today.

[shadowhawk]

Well our subject we have been discussing is morality and I said without God each does what is right in his own eyes.  So a child molester is only doing what is right in his own eyes.  I condemn such actions based upon objective morality which if found in God while you condemn such people based upon you subjective feelings which are no different than the molester.  You each are doing what is right in your own eyes though the conclusion may be different.. And all Brain wants to do is say something ugly about Christians.

[The Brain]

When they clearly won't accept that their god is a disgusting pedophile enabler then you're damn right I'll say the ugly TRUTH

[shadowhawk]

I hear an old tune from a stuck record.  Well there are better things to do. 

[sthira]

Well our subject we have been discussing is morality and I said without God each does what is right in his own eyes. So a child molester is only doing what is right in his own eyes. I condemn such actions based upon objective morality which if found in God while you condemn such people based upon you subjective feelings which are no different than the molester. You each are doing what is right in your own eyes though the conclusion may be different.. And all Brain wants to do is say something ugly about Christians.

A child molester may be "doing what is right in his own eyes" but a child molester is hurting a child. In hurting the child the child molester is also hurting those close to the child who love and care for the child's wellbeing. In molesting the child, the molester is also hurting the larger society within which we live by adding more pain and useless suffering to world. That's why it's illegal to molest a child: it hurts people and societies. Laws against molesting children have nothing to do with God, my subjective feelings, or "each doing what is right in his own eyes."

[The Brain]

I hear an old tune from a stuck record. Well there are better things to do.

You still haven't answered the question of if god were to amend and update his rules for humans that men are to sexually abuse a child .....


Answer whether you'd sexually abuse a child if god told you to Shadowhawk ??????????

[sthira]

I hear an old tune from a stuck record. Well there are better things to do.

You still haven't answered the question of if god were to amend and update his rules for humans that men are to sexually abuse a child .....



Answer whether you'd sexually abuse a child if god told you to Shadowhawk ??????????

Yep. That's the question. And unfortunately for Shadowhawk if he's to remain consistent and faithful to his God he'll have to answer yes, he would. Ain't there a bible story about this type stuff to help guide him? I'm sure there is... Didn't the all infinite loving, powerful & knowing God ask some poor guy to murder his own son or some such psychotic nonsense?

Edited by sthira, 11 June 2015 - 02:48 PM.

[The Brain]

How about you Ark...

You're a full blown god drone who can't separate god and reality

If your almighty sky daddy told you the only way to get into heaven with him is to rape a baby in front of him or spend eternity in hell would you do it????????


I bet you would, I bet you'd rape that baby........ So desperate to be with your god you'd find a way to excuse it and justify it in your mind

[shadowhawk]

 

 

I hear an old tune from a stuck record. Well there are better things to do.

You still haven't answered the question of if god were to amend and update his rules for humans that men are to sexually abuse a child .....



Answer whether you'd sexually abuse a child if god told you to Shadowhawk ??????????

Yep. That's the question. And unfortunately for Shadowhawk if he's to remain consistent and faithful to his God he'll have to answer yes, he would. Ain't there a bible story about this type stuff to help guide him? I'm sure there is... Didn't the all infinite loving, powerful & knowing God ask some poor guy to murder his own son or some such psychotic nonsense?

 

So you have set up a ridiculous hypothetical.  The answer if I am consistent is no because the real God does not have these values.  If God was like your god, then we do what is right in our own eyes and if you felt like molesting someone you would.  Just because someone is hurt isn't the deciding factor.  Natural Selection remember?  In that case protecting the weak is a sin against nature.  Plus, how can  you trust a brain whose evolution was only toward survivability not the ethics of the weak?  Your god doesn't care for the week at all.  So stop talking like a Theist as if there is some code to protect the weak.  Ever watch female ducks being raped by a flock of males?  They eat their young if they feel like it and humans are just acting out their nature when they feel like it.

[The Brain]

Evasion

Plus

Deflection

Equals

Scumbag

Who would molest a child if his god told him to

[old_school]

Brain, I just realized something. If you turned your avatar upside down you head would look just like a toilet bowl.

[The Brain]

Well at last you've said something that can be backed up with proof


Speaking of toilet bowls, your credibility is still in the bottom of one, Old Fool


So how about you creepy, would you rape a baby to get into heaven to hang out with sky daddy?

[shadowhawk]

He is just a parrot saying the same thing over and over no matter how ridiculous.  No use arguing with a bigot.   

[old_school]

Well at last you've said something that can be backed up with proof


Speaking of toilet bowls, your credibility is still in the bottom of one, Old Fool


So how about you creepy, would you rape a baby to get into heaven to hang out with sky daddy?

 

Not only does your head look like a toilet bowl. It also appears to be full of toilet trash.
 

[The Brain]

Oh wow, your insults are old school too, lol


How about answering the question, because if you don't then it can be assumed you are a potential child molester

So what do you say Old Fool???

You either declare you would refuse to rape a child if your god demanded it

Or you admit to it by not answering???

He is just a parrot saying the same thing over and over no matter how ridiculous. No use arguing with a bigot.

Too funny, have you reread your other 70 page thread that was locked because it was going nowhere


Lol, moron ...

[old_school]

Oh wow, your insults are old school too, lol


How about answering the question, because if you don't then it can be assumed you are a potential child molester

So what do you say Old Fool???

You either declare you would refuse to rape a child if your god demanded it

Or you admit to it by not answering???

He is just a parrot saying the same thing over and over no matter how ridiculous. No use arguing with a bigot.

Too funny, have you reread your other 70 page thread that was locked because it was going nowhere


Lol, moron ...

 

 

Toilet trash.
 

[shadowhawk]

Look Old School there is no use answering him because he is just calling names.  He made up a character of God which does not fit reality and demands to know if you would follow him if he made some request which is immoral.  Then he demands an answer and thinks he has made some point.  We won't answer this nonsense.  Answer a fool according to his folly.  Well I can think of many names that fit him but Bigot is the main one.  So being for free speech, let him rave but only respond if he makes some point with substance in it, which is almost never.  Typical with many of these guys of that perspective.