234 replies to this topic

[The Brain]

There is no god

And that IS reality


Clowns

[The Brain]

Look Old School there is no use answering him because he is just calling names. He made up a character of God which does not fit reality and demands to know if you would follow him if he made some request which is immoral. Then he demands an answer and thinks he has made some point. We won't answer this nonsense. Answer a fool according to his folly. Well I can think of many names that fit him but Bigot is the main one. So being for free speech, let him rave but only respond if he makes some point with substance in it, which is almost never. Typical with many of these guys of that perspective.

Cringe worthy bumlicker.

Trying to control the actions of Old Fool so you can control the conversation which is to deny and deflect.

Shows exact what a low scumbag you are morally and ethically

No surprise really though, you are someone that would rape children for acceptance into heaven after all

And your god would sit there and watch as you penetrated that small child and damaged them internally, sit there and watch as you ejaculated in and on that child then watched you as you sneaked away.

[shadowhawk]

There is no god

And that IS reality


Clowns

 

"PROOF" please. 
 

[The Brain]

The fact there is no proof of your god is my proof

[shadowhawk]

 

[old_school]

The fact there is no proof of your god is my proof

 

Why did you choose a username that you can not live up to?
 

[The Brain]

Why not choose a bullshit story you can argue without being made an Old Fool

[shadowhawk]

IS GOD SILENT?  KIND OF SILENT?  HAS SPOKEN?

"Have you ever heard someone say that if God existed, he would give us more evidence? This is called the “hiddenness of God” argument. It’s also known as the argument from “rational non-belief”.

Basically the argument is something like this:

1. God is all powerful
2. God is all loving
3. God wants all people to know about him
4. Some people don’t know about him
5. Therefore, there is no God.

In this argument, the atheist is saying that he’s looked for God real hard and that if God were there, he should have found him by now. After all, God can do anything he wants that’s logically possible, and he wants us to know that he exists. To defeat the argument we need to find a possible explanation of why God would want to remain hidden when our eternal destination depends on our knowledge of his existence.

What reason could God have for remaining hidden?

Dr. Michael Murray, a brilliant professor of philosophy at Franklin & Marshall College, has found a reason for God to remain hidden.

His paper on divine hiddenness is here:
“Coercion and the Hiddenness of God“, American Philosophical Quarterly, Vol 30, 1993.

He argues that if God reveals himself too much to people, he takes away our freedom to make morally-significant decisions, including responding to his self-revelation to us. Murray argues that God stays somewhat hidden, so that he gives people space to either 1) respond to God, or 2) avoid God so we can keep our autonomy from him. God places a higher value on people having the free will to respond to him, and if he shows too much of himself he takes away their free choice to respond to him, because once he is too overt about his existence, people will just feel obligated to belief in him in order to avoid being punished.

But believing in God just to avoid punishment is NOT what God wants for us. If it is too obvious to us that God exists and that he really will judge us, then people will respond to him and behave morally out of self-preservation. But God wants us to respond to him out of interest in him, just like we might try to get to know someone we admire. God has to dial down the immediacy of the threat of judgment, and the probability that the threat is actual. That leaves it up to us to respond to God’s veiled revelation of himself to us, in nature and in Scripture.

(Note: I think that we don’t seek God on our own, and that he must take the initiative to reach out to us and draw us to him. But I do think that we are free to resist his revelation, at which point God stops himself short of coercing our will. We are therefore responsible for our own fate).

The atheist’s argument is a logical/deductive argument. It aims to show that there is a contradiction between God’s will for us and his hiding from us. In order to derive a contradiction, God MUST NOT have any possible reason to remain hidden. If he has a reason for remaining hidden that is consistent with his goodness, then the argument will not go through.

When Murray offers a possible reason for God to remain hidden in order to allow people to freely respond to him, then the argument is defeated. God wants people to respond to him freely so that there is a genuine love relationship – not coercion by overt threat of damnation. To rescue the argument, the atheist has to be able to prove that God could provide more evidence of his existence without interfering with the free choice of his creatures to reject him.

Murray has defended the argument in works published by prestigious academic presses such as Cambridge University Press, (ISBN: 0521006104, 2001) and Routledge (ISBN: 0415380383, 2007). The book chapter from the Cambridge book is here. The book chapter from the Routledge book is here."

[sthira]

.,.Dr. Michael Murray, a brilliant professor of philosophy at Franklin & Marshall College, has found a reason for God to remain hidden.
His paper on divine hiddenness is here:
“Coercion and the Hiddenness of God“, American Philosophical Quarterly, Vol 30, 1993.

Thank you for the article; I downloaded and read it. Dr. Murray's arguments for God remain questionable for many reasons. Is it really the case, for example, that God runs the risk of revealing himself too much to people? The truth seems rather the opposite -- that God does not reveal himself enough. If God is revealing himself at all here in this present moment, then where? When? How? Nor is it the case that "God stays somewhat hidden." Rather, God appears to stay entirely hidden. If God is present right now, again: where, when how?

Where is God, for example, in cases of useless suffering as in child molestation? When is God available to anyone -- either a believer or not -- who is crying out in pain? How is God doing anything -- either positive or negative -- anywhere right now in this world? I'm not asking about the world of the bible: but here, right now?

Where, when, and how is God in the lives of people who believe in God?

God, if God exists, appears (according to your own language) to have chosen "free will" over (one example) child protection. And for this, God is wrong and God's errors require us to step in and enforce the child protection laws that God won't, can't, or doesn't exist enough to prevent. God could choose to reveal himself -- protect children from attackers -- yet does not. God could chose to come out of hiding, yet God fails.

I'm not saying God does not exist. I don't know if God exists or not. I'm not trying to "win" any arguments with you or with anyone. I don't care about arguments either pro or con. I care about the existence of God. None of anyone's human arguments either theistic or atheistic matter much to me. Rather, this issue is on God. God needs to answer, and until God answers we shall correctly remain in a state of unknowing. Agnosticism is the most reasonable position to remain until God shows up, or doesn't. And who is to say with any authority whatsoever that this state of unknowing isn't exactly where God wants us? How would anyone know otherwise?

[shadowhawk]

Most Theists do not agree that God is "entirely," hidden.  That is not the argument.

[The Brain]

God is all powerful
God is all loving
God wants all people to know about him
Some people don’t know about him
Therefore, there is no God.
In this argument, the atheist is saying that he’s looked for God real hard and that if God were there, he should have found him by now. After all, God can do anything he wants that’s logically possible, and he wants us to know that he exists. To defeat the argument we need to find a possible explanation of why God would want to remain hidden when our eternal destination depends on our knowledge of his existence.


Didn't god create the bible as his contact with humanity

[shadowhawk]

He could kick your butt and why doesn't He?  You are right since he does not use such tactics there must be no God.

[Dakman]

God being all knowing must have had knowledge that his message has failed to reach us and has caused immeasurable problems

[shadowhawk]

God being all knowing must have had knowledge that his message has failed to reach us and has caused immeasurable problems

He didn't fail to reach us or you.

[shadowhawk]

The topic concerns lack of convincing arguments.  I think there are many convincing arguments with evidence.  Here is my own list and I Invite any one who thinks there is No good evidence for theism to pick one and discuss it with me.

 

Arguments for theism:

    The argument from abstract objects
    The contingency argument
    Kalam cosmological argument
    Fine-tuning of cosmological constants
    Galactic, stellar and planetary fine-tuning
    Origin of the building blocks in the simplest replicating cell(Dean Kenyon, Charles Thaxton)
    Origin of biological information in the simplest replicating cell (Stephen C. Meyer)
    Sudden origins of all major body plans in the 3-5 million year Cambrian explosion(Stephen C. Meyer, Jonathan Wells)
    The moral argument (William Lane Craig)
    The argument from near-death experiences
    The argument from irreducibly complex molecular machines (Michael Behe)
    The argument from evil (yes, that’s what I said)
    The arguments from mathematical effectiveness, simplicity and beauty (Eugene Wigner)
    The argument from the incompatibility between naturalism and rationality (Alvin Plantinga)
    The argument from the incompatibility between naturalism and consciousness (Angus Menuge)
    The argument from the natural limits to biological change (Ray Bohlin)
    Etc.

And then there are arguments for Christianity in particular:

    The argument from fulfilled prophecy
    The argument from accuracy in describing the human condition
    The logical consistency and testability of Christianity
    The superior moral character of authentic Christians in history
    Etc.

Historical arguments for Christianity

    historical criteria for extracting minimal facts and the earliest evidence for the resurrection in 1 Cor 15
    the minimal facts argument (Habermas/Craig/Licona)
    the best explanation of the changes in the concept of resurrection (Wright)
    the earliest sources for the empty tomb
    the best evidences for the empty tomb, from the earliest sources

Negative apologetics

Scientific objections:

    what about the progress of science and God-of-the-gaps?
    doesn’t the Bible require the creation of the earth in six 24-hour days?
    didn’t aliens seed the earth with the first life?
    what about quantum fluctuation and chaotic inflationary models?

Philosophical objections

    the problems of evil and suffering
    the problem of religious pluralism and religious truth claims
    the problem of postmodern skepticism (i.e. – the problem of wanting to be lazy and popular)
    the problem of rational morality and purpose on atheism
    the problem of moral relativism
    the fate of the unevangelized (what about those who never heard of Jesus)
    the hiddenness of God (why isn’t there more evidence for God’s existence?)
    are all religions basically the same?
    isn’t the doctrine of the Trinity self-contradictory?
    can God make a rock so big he can’t lift it?
    did God create evil?
    who made God?
    can people twist the Bible to mean anything?
    who has the burden of proof?
    what about the blind men and the elephant?
    isn’t faith is opposed to reason and evidence? (a debate between a Christian and a postmodern relativist)
    what makes Christianity different from other religions?

Emotional objections

    memo to Christopher Hitchens: a sneer is not an argument

Freethought objections

    Does Christianity or atheism justify mass murder?
    Wasn’t Hitler a Christian? Is Christianity like Nazism?
    Does the Bible condone slavery?

Moral issues

    a case for the pro-life position in plain English
    adult stem cell research is superior to embryonic stem cell research

Mentoring

    the importance of being able to argue both sides of a question
    why does talking about religion make people uncomfortable?
    how to talk to your co-workers about your faith

Apologetics advocacy

    does the Bible teach that faith is opposed to logic and evidence?
    the six enemies of apologetic engagement
    why men flee the feminized church
    why won’t Christians defend their faith in public?
 

[The Brain]

God being all knowing must have had knowledge that his message has failed to reach us and has caused immeasurable problems

He didn't fail to reach us or you.

Your man in the sky needs a new PR manager

Or perhaps bible 2.0

Better yet seeing as the world is as christians say close to end times god could make an appearance again for a refresher and kick start for those who just can't trust in a man made document from ancient times.

Such an unbelievable story needs some serious backing up if you want to maintain interest

[shadowhawk]

 

 

God being all knowing must have had knowledge that his message has failed to reach us and has caused immeasurable problems

He didn't fail to reach us or you.

Your man in the sky needs a new PR manager

Or perhaps bible 2.0

Better yet seeing as the world is as christians say close to end times god could make an appearance again for a refresher and kick start for those who just can't trust in a man made document from ancient times.

Such an unbelievable story needs some serious backing up if you want to maintain interest

 

Well I presented a whole list of evidence topics.  Would you care to seriously talk about any of them?

A Case for the human spirit.

 

Do we have a soul or spirit or are we only physical, a body?  The atheistic naturalist says we only have a body and no spirit.  Prove you have a spirit is the challenge and no Bible.  Well the Bible can tell us many things but if you won’t accept it, try this.

The case:

    The law of identity says that if A = B’ if A and B have the exact same properties
    If A = the mind and B = the brain, then is A identical to B?

    Here are 6 arguments bu J.W. Wallace to show that A is not identical to B because they have different properties

Not everyone of the arguments below might make sense to you, but you will probably find one or two that strike you as correct. Some of the points are more illustrative than persuasive, like #2. However, I do find #3, #5 and #6 persuasive.

1) First-person access to mental properties

*    Thought experiment: Imagine your dream car, and picture it clearly in your mind
    If we invited an artist to come and sketch out your dream car, then we could see your dream car’s shape on paper
*    This concept of your dream car is not something that people can see by looking at your brain structure
*    Physical properties can be physically accessed, but the properties of your dream care and privately accessed

2) Our experience of consciousness implies that we are not our bodies

*    Common sense notion of personhood is that we own our bodies, but we are not our bodies.  I learned this as a child.  My Dad only had one hand, yet he was all there.

3) Persistent self-identity through time

*    Thought experiment: replacing a new car with an old car one piece at a time
*    When you change even the smallest part of a physical object, it changes the identity of that object
*    Similarly, your body is undergoing changes constantly over time
*    Every cell in your body is different from the body you had 10 years ago
*    Even your brain cells undergo changes (see this from New Scientist – WK)
*    If you are the same person you were 10 years ago, then you are not your physical body

4) Mental properties cannot be measured like physical objects

*    Physical objects can be measured (e.g. – use physical measurements to measure weight, size, etc.)
*    Mental properties cannot be measured

5) Intentionality or About-ness

*    Mental entities can refer to realities that are physical, something outside of themselves
*    A tree is not about anything, it just is a physical object
*    But you can have thoughts about the tree out there in the garden that needs water

6) Free will and personal responsibility

*    If humans are purely physical, then all our actions are determined by sensory inputs and genetic programming
*    Biological determinism is not compatible with free will, and free will is required for personal responsibility
*    Our experience of moral choices and moral responsibility requires free will, and free will requires minds/souls

Therefore We (our spirit) and our body, are not the same.  We are a dualistic being consisting of body and spirit.  Our body dies, being physical but our spirit never dies. Being spirit.  I could have used the Bible but I didn’t.  The next question is what next?

[The Brain]

Ummm, I don't read anything you post if its over a paragraph long...

[shadowhawk]

Lets try this again without anyone who cannot think..

 

Do we have a soul or spirit or are we only physical, a body?  The atheistic naturalist says we only have a body and no spirit.  Prove you have a spirit is the challenge and no Bible.  Well the Bible can tell us many things but if you won’t accept it, try this.

The case:

    The law of identity says that if A = B’ if A and B have the exact same properties
    If A = the mind and B = the brain, then is A identical to B?

    Here are 6 arguments bu J.W. Wallace to show that A is not identical to B because they have different properties

Not everyone of the arguments below might make sense to you, but you will probably find one or two that strike you as correct. Some of the points are more illustrative than persuasive, like #2. However, I do find #3, #5 and #6 persuasive.

1) First-person access to mental properties

*    Thought experiment: Imagine your dream car, and picture it clearly in your mind
    If we invited an artist to come and sketch out your dream car, then we could see your dream car’s shape on paper
*    This concept of your dream car is not something that people can see by looking at your brain structure
*    Physical properties can be physically accessed, but the properties of your dream care and privately accessed

2) Our experience of consciousness implies that we are not our bodies

*    Common sense notion of personhood is that we own our bodies, but we are not our bodies.  I learned this as a child.  My Dad only had one hand, yet he was all there.

3) Persistent self-identity through time

*    Thought experiment: replacing a new car with an old car one piece at a time
*    When you change even the smallest part of a physical object, it changes the identity of that object
*    Similarly, your body is undergoing changes constantly over time
*    Every cell in your body is different from the body you had 10 years ago
*    Even your brain cells undergo changes (see this from New Scientist – WK)
*    If you are the same person you were 10 years ago, then you are not your physical body

4) Mental properties cannot be measured like physical objects

*    Physical objects can be measured (e.g. – use physical measurements to measure weight, size, etc.)
*    Mental properties cannot be measured

5) Intentionality or About-ness

*    Mental entities can refer to realities that are physical, something outside of themselves
*    A tree is not about anything, it just is a physical object
*    But you can have thoughts about the tree out there in the garden that needs water

6) Free will and personal responsibility

*    If humans are purely physical, then all our actions are determined by sensory inputs and genetic programming
*    Biological determinism is not compatible with free will, and free will is required for personal responsibility
*    Our experience of moral choices and moral responsibility requires free will, and free will requires minds/souls

Therefore We (our spirit) and our body, are not the same.  We are a dualistic being consisting of body and spirit.  Our body dies, being physical but our spirit never dies. Being spirit.  I could have used the Bible but I didn’t.  The next question is what next?

[shadowhawk]

Ummm, I don't read anything over a paragraph long...

OK, have a nice day

[Dakman]

So why is god such a no show then???

[shadowhawk]

So why is god such a no show then???

I don't believe He is no show.  Here is a list of some of the things I have talked about as evidence for God.  Many of them are in the evidence for Christianity topic.  Tell you what, you choose one of the topics below and we will discuss it but until you do this is but a cliff and not a sound objection.

 

Arguments for theism:

*   The argument from abstract objects
*    The contingency argument
*    Kalam cosmological argument
*    Fine-tuning of cosmological constants
*    Galactic, stellar and planetary fine-tuning
*    Origin of the building blocks in the simplest replicating cell(Dean Kenyon, Charles Thaxton)
*    Origin of biological information in the simplest replicating cell (Stephen C. Meyer)
*    Sudden origins of all major body plans in the 3-5 million year Cambrian explosion(Stephen C. Meyer, Jonathan Wells)
*    The moral argument (William Lane Craig)
*    The argument from near-death experiences
*    The argument from irreducibly complex molecular machines (Michael Behe)
*    The argument from evil (yes, that’s what I said)
*    The arguments from mathematical effectiveness, simplicity and beauty (Eugene Wigner)
*    The argument from the incompatibility between naturalism and rationality (Alvin Plantinga)
*    The argument from the incompatibility between naturalism and consciousness (Angus Menuge)
*   The argument from the natural limits to biological change (Ray Bohlin)
    Etc.

And then there are arguments for Christianity in particular:

*   The argument from fulfilled prophecy
*   The argument from accuracy in describing the human condition
*   The logical consistency and testability of Christianity
*   The superior moral character of authentic Christians in history
    Etc.

Historical arguments for Christianity

*   historical criteria for extracting minimal facts and the earliest evidence for the resurrection in 1 Cor 15
*   the minimal facts argument (Habermas/Craig/Licona)
*   the best explanation of the changes in the concept of resurrection (Wright)
*   the earliest sources for the empty tomb
*   the best evidences for the empty tomb, from the earliest sources

Negative apologetics

Scientific objections:

*   what about the progress of science and God-of-the-gaps?
*   doesn’t the Bible require the creation of the earth in six 24-hour days?
*   didn’t aliens seed the earth with the first life?
*   what about quantum fluctuation and chaotic inflationary models?
*   what is science?

Philosophical objections

*   the problems of evil and suffering
*   the problem of religious pluralism and religious truth claims
*   the problem of postmodern skepticism (i.e. – the problem of wanting to be lazy and popular)
*   the problem of rational morality and purpose on atheism
*   the problem of moral relativism
*   the fate of the unevangelized (what about those who never heard of Jesus)
*   the hiddenness of God (why isn’t there more evidence for God’s existence?)
*   are all religions basically the same?
*   Isnt the dctrine of the Trinity self contrdictory?
*   can God make a rock so big he can’t lift it?
*   did God create evil?
*   can people twist the Bible to mean anything?
*   who has the burden of proof?
*   what about the blind men and the elephant?
*   isn’t faith is opposed to reason and evidence? (a debate between a Christian and a postmodern relativist)
*   what makes Christianity different from other religions?

Emotional objections

*   memo to Christopher Hitchens: a sneer is not an argument
*    mockery is not an argument
*   logical fallacies are not arguments,

Free-thought objections

*   Does Christianity or atheism justify mass murder?
*   Wasn’t Hitler a Christian? Is Christianity like Nazism?
*   Does the Bible condone slavery?

Moral issues

*   a case for the pro-life position in plain English
*   adult stem cell research is superior to embryonic stem cell research

Apologetics advocacy

*   does the Bible teach that faith is opposed to logic and evidence?
*   what is Faith?
 

[The Brain]

Omg, the creator of the universe needs all that to confirm his existence...

[shadowhawk]

To much for your little brain?  Well I am interested in things of substance so Ill pass on having these childish conversations.  CU

[The Brain]

Seriously if your god needs that much support to verify his existence you should be getting paid as a personal assistant or something

Lol

[shadowhawk]

CU

[platypus]

Perhaps many believers intuitively understand that they are deceiving themselves...that's when the search for "proof" commences.

[shadowhawk]

Perhaps they will learn the difference between "proof," and "evidence."  Just saying....

[The Brain]

Or learn between god and no god ...

[shadowhawk]

So, where are those with something intelligent to say about the topic?