25 replies to this topic

[muddycat]

2 Years ago, I received a brain injury due to Vyvanse.  I had concentration due to OCD/INsomia, not ADHD.   However, this wasn't completely known at the time so I was prescribed 20MG Vyvanse to be tritrated up to 40MG.  I took 20MG for a week and 40MG for a day.  I had a severe overdose reaction with the 40MG, causing migraines, heart palpitations, insomnia, muscle tension confusion.  For three months after that, I had severe dementia-like memory loss, confusion in lighted areas, and non-existed attention.  Before this reaction, I had an IQ of 150 and a super memory of events and spatial awareness.  It turns out that original issue was in fact a severe sleep disorder that developed 1-2 years prior to the Vyvanse incident that depleted my Serotonin.  Although with time I have partially recovered, I still have some memory and attention issues that I never had before.  I have tried D5 Mucuna but it gave me severe nausea.  Although I am taking antidepressants, I still need to restore Dopamine and Serotonin functions as neurotoxity and long term depletion requires more intervention.

 

Any advice on supplements that A. Contribute to increasing neurotransmitters and B.  Promote neuroprotection (Such as PQQ?) and neurogenesis.  

 

 

[Supierce]

SAMe boosts serotonin and dopamine. Nicotinamide Riboside and PQQ are good for neuroprotection and neurogenesis. I don't recommend taking SAMe and NR together. For me, that combination caused an extreme case of caffeine-like jitters.

[aribadabar]

I tried Vyvanse 60mg (and even 120mg once) a few times and although it definitely has the strongest brain-boosting effect of anything I have tried so far I have not experienced any  memory issues. The talkativeness, teeth clenching, some muscle tension, the complete lack of hunger dissipated within 8-10h after intake.

 

I would not say 40mg is big enough dose to be considered overdose.

 

My guess is that your memory problems are caused by the sleep disorder not by the Vyvanse intake.

 

 

[airplanepeanuts]

 I don't recommend taking SAMe and NR together. For me, that combination caused an extreme case of caffeine-like jitters.

 

I have no problems with the combination.

[synthetic]

I noted your status. Hmm..  what are you concerned about? I would not suspect that Vyvanse is really a great concern. I was't able to locate information on it's general kinetic profile; may that be receptors, transporters, conformational changes. Presume it's MOA is similar to that of d-amphetamine salts, it's agonistic. I understand what you may be talking about given that you have been thinking about how Vyvanse works, and your noted use of antidepressants; SSRI, NDRI, and the general idea of inhibition, and your concern about 5-HT reduction, but I don't see this happening. Classical SSRI compounds can increase and decrease neurotransmitter concentration, increase and decrease cellular communication, which varies between different pathologies; depression, OCD, anxiety. I enjoy the idea of a class of drugs terms SSRE's, which work in the opposite way as  SSRI's. The term 'enhancer' is used in SSRE, and it's simple that enhancing communication is more effective then directly modulating it with inhibition, but they don't always enhance everything given current market SSREs -- because you have high concentration available, that is always excellent, but that doesn't mean that you will experience maximal biological interaction due to ligand activity, the concept of metabolism and enhanced communication is more inline with euphoric compounds.

 

Why would a sleep disorder delete your serotonin? There are stimulating and non-stimulating stimulants, ones that induce euphoria, perceptional enhancement, compounds that increase cognition. Amphetamines can be concerned neurotoxic, but not as much as other drugs, and the reason they are neurotoxic is because of the idea of an idea of a excitotoxin, which can apply in different situations.

Edited by synthetic, 11 June 2015 - 04:24 PM.

[muddycat]

I was diagnosed with amphetamine neurotoxity.   Turns out I was very much not A.D.D. (OCD) and I had an overdose reaction on a low dose.  

 

I have had to receive treatments, including amino acids and lighter stimulants to counter the effects of the Vyvanse reaction.  

 

The main problem I always had was insomnia and extreme concentration/obsessivenss issues.  My attention span was always good, just I was so obsessive/had chronic insomnia that it was difficult to concentrate

 

 

[synthetic]

I was diagnosed with amphetamine neurotoxity.   Turns out I was very much not A.D.D. (OCD) and I had an overdose reaction on a low dose.  

 

I have had to receive treatments, including amino acids and lighter stimulants to counter the effects of the Vyvanse reaction.  

 

The main problem I always had was insomnia and extreme concentration/obsessivenss issues.  My attention span was always good, just I was so obsessive/had chronic insomnia that it was difficult to concentrate

 

Yeah, that's certainly possible. I've been on amounts of 60mg+/day amphetamine salts without negative effects whatsoever for years. For me, it's odd that you would experience such a general response to your treatment. Is there a reason why you chose to take Vyvanse, and not Adderall or Dexedrine? I relate your question to MDMA, and your concern is valid and note where you're coming from.

 

I've had seizures and convulsions from single dose SSRI. I was hesitant of them in general, and given that, I only consumed less than 50% of the actual dose amount, and still had the reaction. 

Edited by synthetic, 11 June 2015 - 05:31 PM.

[OneScrewLoose]

Who diagnosed you with amphetamine toxicity? The thing about Vyvanse, it is released over about 8 hours. Some people take doses of 30mg instant release Adderall multiple times a day, which hits your system all at once (I once had a prescription of 3x30mg per day).

[synthetic]

Who diagnosed you with amphetamine toxicity? The thing about Vyvanse, it is released over about 8 hours. Some people take doses of 30mg instant release Adderall multiple times a day, which hits your system all at once (I once had a prescription of 3x30mg per day).

 

Clearance theory is an indication of such topics -- I've noted people dying due to cardiac events, some valid, others due to overdose of combinational reasons. For me, I would not expect such drastic implications considering the general class of drugs, and his acute dosing. I personally know that derivatives and their forms can change broadly in pharmacodynamics. I'll even given the example that a drug's enantiomers; one can be completely safe, while the other toxic.

 

I would take Dexedrine, perhaps on 3-5mg. I've noted various body sensations with amphetamines, which I don't care for. I've taken them for their marked use in ideas such as ADHD spectrum, wakefulness, euphoria and their ability to increase aspects of cognition through their activation mechanism. I've noted their ability in all domains. Given the reasonable amount I may have consumed without any ill effects, I'm sorry the OP has had this reaction. I've read positive literature on Modafinil, perhaps consider the use of caffeine instead. I can't tolerate caffeine, but I can amphetamines.

Edited by synthetic, 13 June 2015 - 03:20 AM.

[OneScrewLoose]

Which SSRI gave you the seizure?

[synthetic]

Which SSRI gave you the seizure?

 

Umm.. Zoloft.

[synthetic]

I recommend Deprenyl, 5-HTP and Centrophenoxine; although I would discontinue the use of your SSRI. You could research your specific SSRI and see if you note any interactions.... There are changes such as diet, exercise, vitamin and minerals that may be helpful.

Edited by synthetic, 13 June 2015 - 04:56 AM.

[OneScrewLoose]

 

I recommend Deprenyl, 5-HTP and Centrophenoxine; although I would discontinue the use of your SSRI. You could research your specific SSRI and see if you note any interactions.... There are changes such as diet, exercise, vitamin and minerals that may be helpful.

 

I disagree. There's nothing that is going to slow his recovery if he is taking an SSRI, and will only accelerate it if it's working as an antidepressant, as depression shrinks the hippocampus and reversing the depression brings it back to normal size.

I recommend Bacopa for its capacity to increase BDNF and positively affect memory. It takes 8-12 weeks to take full effect though. Selegiline will help protect the dopamine system.

For the insomnia I recommend looking into clonidine. If other sleeping pills have failed, it can stop a racing mind in a way that other drugs just can't.

FYI, sleep issues don't simply 'deplete serotonin'. Lack of a sleep has a huge effect on a wide variety of the systems on the brain.

If you are taking antidepressants, you may want to look into switching to amitriptyline. It's unique among any drug in that it activates both TrKA and TrKB receptors, the binding sites of BDNF and NGF. These means in can help grow dendritic connections and help restore what you lost in and of itself. I don't believe there is a single other drug that acts on both of these receptors.

Those are some options. If you are interested in more, or you want me to elaborate, I'd be glad to.

[synthetic]

 

 

I recommend Deprenyl, 5-HTP and Centrophenoxine; although I would discontinue the use of your SSRI. You could research your specific SSRI and see if you note any interactions.... There are changes such as diet, exercise, vitamin and minerals that may be helpful.

 

I disagree. There's nothing that is going to slow his recovery if he is taking an SSRI, and will only accelerate it if it's working as an antidepressant, as depression shrinks the hippocampus and reversing the depression brings it back to normal size.

I recommend Bacopa for its capacity to increase BDNF and positively affect memory. It takes 8-12 weeks to take full effect though. Selegiline will help protect the dopamine system.

For the insomnia I recommend looking into clonidine. If other sleeping pills have failed, it can stop a racing mind in a way that other drugs just can't.

FYI, sleep issues don't simply 'deplete serotonin'. Lack of a sleep has a huge effect on a wide variety of the systems on the brain.

If you are taking antidepressants, you may want to look into switching to amitriptyline. It's unique among any drug in that it activates both TrKA and TrKB receptors, the binding sites of BDNF and NGF. These means in can help grow dendritic connections and help restore what you lost in and of itself. I don't believe there is a single other drug that acts on both of these receptors.

Those are some options. If you are interested in more, or you want me to elaborate, I'd be glad to.

 

 

I don't expect great harm from the use of the SSRI, and as noted, he could experience benefits if they are inline with what he needs.... You're right though, depression can and dose effect brain morphology, additionally so, when stressed states are experienced; in this case depression/anxiety/OCD. I mentioned that I would discontinue the SSRI when taking something such as Deprenyl/Selegiline. I presume synergistic experience when consumed together, and this is what he may need. I would need to see his reports and additional information for insight into severity, since his complainant is so sever -- I'm hoping he's more anxious and worried. Not that I am doubting it at all, just seems much for acute dose - and with personal experience with amphetamines, I haven't experienced anything related to the OP.  I would expect his concerns to be more inline with some of chronic MDMA use.

Yeah, Selegiline is an option which was inline with Deprenyl, both are available. I would personally use Deprenyl over Selegiline, as I have used Deprenyl - it comes in a variety of methods; liquid, transdermal patch.

Edited by synthetic, 13 June 2015 - 06:48 AM.

[OneScrewLoose]

Umm, Deprenyl is simply one of the brand names for selegiline, like Celexa is for Citalopram. They are the same thing.

 

Selegiline is MAO-B selective at doses below 10mg, which means it does not inhibit the breakdown of serotonin. This means there would be no interaction with an SSRI at this dose.

[synthetic]

Umm, Deprenyl is simply one of the brand names for selegiline, like Celexa is for Citalopram. They are the same thing.

 

Selegiline is MAO-B selective at doses below 10mg, which means it does not inhibit the breakdown of serotonin. This means there would be no interaction with an SSRI at this dose.

 

They are....

[synthetic]

Umm, Deprenyl is simply one of the brand names for selegiline, like Celexa is for Citalopram. They are the same thing.

 

Selegiline is MAO-B selective at doses below 10mg, which means it does not inhibit the breakdown of serotonin. This means there would be no interaction with an SSRI at this dose.

 

They are....

[muddycat]

Both a conventional doctor and a naturalpath are directly trying to reverse long term effects.  Thankfully, the attention and memory recovered quite a bit over the last couple of years since the initial 3+ month aftermath of it.   During that 3 month period I went from just having massive obsessiveness with insomnia to the need for being taken care of almost like an elderly Alhzeimer's patient.  I understand that this seems very strange, and the doctors at first weren't able to determine that at first thought it was just to strange considering the low doses of Vyvanse I was taking.  

 

My personal theory is that I had developed an unbalance of between dopamine and serotonin as a child, which made the former very susceptible to over-excitement.

I was always very highly motivated with an excellent long-term memory and visual and auditory attention,  but always I had concentration problems related to obsessiveness.

   

It should be noted that I have never consumed any recreational drugs, so that is not a factor.  

 

In fact D5 Mucuna, which is a natural form of L-Dopa and antioxidants, did seem to completely restore the previous mental abilities of before. The biggest problem I had was nausea and a mess with my sleep again.  I stopped amino acid therapy due to severe GI Problems, which is suppose to be due to either blood brain barrier issues or too low serotonin.  I may go back to amino acids as mere supplements, not a replacement in treatment, if I can get the worst of the obsessiveness and general alertness symptoms treated with standard medication.

 

As for medications, I have been taking Viibyd 40MG and Trazadone (low doses as a sleep aid) for over a year.  While Viibryd did seem to lift the severe depression I went into after being self-motivated to feeling completely brain damaged, it didn't clinically help with the obsessiveness/all of serotonin related depression to promote normal productivity.  Therefore, my neurologist added Cymbalta for the last month (30MG for 2 weeks, 2weeks 60MG ). Over a two week period, I had notable improvements in recall of memory, situational awareness, and visual perception (before it was hard to process anything visually in movement or on a computer due to a lack of memory of things that happened a second before). Although I had some severe insomnia again before upping the dose  of Trazadone to 75MG, I have begun possibly noting some serotonin improvements such as decrease in depression and anxiety symptoms such as pacing and chewing.  However, the product-inhibiting obsessiveness symptoms have remained thus far.

For now, it's my plan to get NE and SE under control with this new medication plan, and supplement with SMALL amounts of amino acids if I still need help with dopamine itself.

[OneScrewLoose]

L-Dopa is not an amino acid, btw.

 

Usually twice the standard dose of an SSRI is required to control OCD behavior. This means 200mg of Zoloft instead of 100, 80mg of Prozac instead of 40, and in this case 80mg of Viibryd instead of 40. I'm not sure if you or your doctor would be willing to do that, but that's the standard for OCD.

 

You may want to try inositol, however:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/8780431

 

You'd want to take 18g/day, so I'd buy the kilogram package on Amazon.

[muddycat]

.

 

Usually twice the standard dose of an SSRI is required to control OCD behavior. This means 200mg of Zoloft instead of 100, 80mg of Prozac instead of 40, and in this case 80mg of Viibryd instead of 40. I'm not sure if you or your doctor would be willing to do that, but that's the standard for OCD.

 

 

Do you have any sources on this? It seems like target dose is 40MG, without any higher strength doses with others.   

[OneScrewLoose]

 

.

 

Usually twice the standard dose of an SSRI is required to control OCD behavior. This means 200mg of Zoloft instead of 100, 80mg of Prozac instead of 40, and in this case 80mg of Viibryd instead of 40. I'm not sure if you or your doctor would be willing to do that, but that's the standard for OCD.

 

 

Do you have any sources on this? It seems like target dose is 40MG, without any higher strength doses with others.   

 

 

Here you go. You can see that these doses are quite higher than the standard. This is typical for OCD.

[muddycat]

Does anyone know if serotonin syndrome causes brain damage.  It has been confirmed that I have dopamine toxity issues, but I was wondering if serotonin syndrome could also be neurotoxic.  Most seem to say no, but Idk.  

[OneScrewLoose]

Have you had serotonin syndrome?

[Flex]

Does anyone know if serotonin syndrome causes brain damage.  It has been confirmed that I have dopamine toxity issues, but I was wondering if serotonin syndrome could also be neurotoxic.  Most seem to say no, but Idk.  

 

Yes,afaik, due to hyperthermia but this is somewhat lowered by a mechanism, forgott which one.

Could be that there are other mechnism by which Serotonine snydrome can be also neurotoxic, dont know.

 

Disclammer: it could be contraproductive to do this on Your own. Better show a study to Your Doctor and get some advises like whether its safe or not, interactions & etc.

Otherwise You could make things worser .. You never know. Also I´m just an amateur so I might be wrong.

 

Anyway, look into this:

 

Neurites regrowth of cortical neurons by GSK3beta inhibition independently of Nogo receptor 1.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20374426

 

GSK-3beta inhibition via Lithium or Berberine

http://www.alzres.com/content/6/3/35

 

or Andrographis paniculata 

http://www.fasebj.or...bstracts/835.11

but Andrographis paniculata has also other effects which might be relative contraindicated by lowering transiently dopamine/monoamine transmission

 

Korean ginseng, Horny goat weed(icariin) and maybe astragalus are able, altough relative weakly, to inhibit Nogo:

The Nogo receptor, its ligands and axonal regeneration in the spinal cord; a review.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12815233

 

Treatment with ginseng total saponins improves the neurorestoration of rat after traumatic brain injury.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/25046825

 

Inhibitory effect of icariin on expression of myelin inhibitory factors in the central nervous system of rats with focal cerebral ischemia

http://www.scholarma...=,16,zh_cn.html

 

Activin Promotes Robust Axonal Regeneration in Brain-Injured Mice

http://www.brainprot...n-injured-mice/

Not sure whether "Activin A" is the same as Activin but if yes, then is Emodin from rhubarb an agonist:

 

Emodin prevents hypoxic-ischemic neuronal injury: Involvement of the activin A pathway

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC4107762/

 

The role and mechanism of action of activin A in neurite outgrowth of chicken embryonic dorsal root ganglia

http://www.researchg...al_root_ganglia

 

The exceptional properties of 9-methyl-beta-carboline: stimulation, protection and regeneration of dopaminergic neurons coupled with anti-inflammatory effects.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20374418

 

or Mr. happy stack

http://www.longecity...ne-uridine-dha/

but Uridine can also transintly decrease dopamine transmission

 

See also this thread for more informations :

 

Drug abuse and Nootropic Repair

http://www.longecity...otropic-repair/

 

Changes in hippocampal synapses and learning-memory abilities in age-increasing rats and effects of tetrahydroxystilbene glucoside in aged rats.

Treatment with high-dose TSG in rats at 24 months of age had significant improvement in the learning-memory abilities in the water maze tests associated with an increase in the number of synapses and synaptic vesicles, and an elevation of expression of SYP in the hippocampus

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17935895

tetrahydroxystilbene glucoside = Polygonum multiflorum = Fo Ti = in pin yin: He Shou Wu

 

from

Newly natural compounds that I´ve found with interresting effects

http://www.longecity...e-2#entry685129

 

Edit: here is a source of chinese herbs

http://www.acuatlant...ms-p-46157.html

 

better buy the brand products to minimizes any possible pollutants like heavy metals or pesticides

Edited by Flex, 30 June 2015 - 04:32 AM.

[muddycat]

Some research on the Natural Path incidates the SSRI's poop out due to depletion and reduction in serotonin production while others evidence indicates they are neuroprotective  

[OneScrewLoose]

The research on SSRIs right now is still very inconclusive. But if you have OCD, it's really the only way to go. Well, except for Clomipramine, the only non-SSRI approved for OCD (a tricyclic). If you don't like the SSRIs, that may be worth looking into.

The due have a reputation for pooping out, but that's for depression/anxiety. I haven't seen any research that they poop out for OCD, though that doesn't mean it's not there.