Posted 19 June 2015 - 10:49 PM
Hey, I recently moved to Southern California and this month the sun really is hitting like a pile of bricks. I have been consistently using Burnout sunblock, but I am wondering if it is not good enough for this amount of sun exposure, and if anyone has other suggestions for the scorching california sun? Preferably wanna keep it physical not chemical.
Posted 20 June 2015 - 04:22 AM
Add antioxidants, try to keep out of the sun, wear a hat... I think photostable chemical sunscreens would be better, Zinc Oxide just does not have a high PPD.
Staying out of the sun is unrealistic. All I can do is minimize my exposure by a few hours a day.
I have been considering antioxidant moisturizers. Right now I do Emu oil under the burnout. Any other suggestions?
Edited by TheFountain, 20 June 2015 - 04:22 AM.
Posted 22 June 2015 - 11:01 AM
Generally you'd want a combination of antioxidants - like vitamin C + E + Ferulic acid. Some DIY kits however don't work, it is important to use tocopherol as vitamin e. There are more antioxidants, the big question is always delivery into the skin.
Posted 23 June 2015 - 09:19 PM
Any Tinosorb sunblock (Avéne, Bioderma) with a Zinc Oxide sunblock on top (MDSolarScience, EltaMd). You can also apply some powder on top (e.g., Colorscience).
But isn't tinsorb chemical based?
Aren't sunscreens with this ingredient difficult to make less greasey?
What I have loved so fondly about burnout is it's less greasey formulation.
Posted 23 June 2015 - 09:55 PM
Any Tinosorb sunblock (Avéne, Bioderma) with a Zinc Oxide sunblock on top (MDSolarScience, EltaMd). You can also apply some powder on top (e.g., Colorscience).
But isn't tinsorb chemical based?
Aren't sunscreens with this ingredient difficult to make less greasey?
What I have loved so fondly about burnout is it's less greasey formulation.
Tinosorb S is chemical based and Tinosorb M is a hybrid which acts as both chemical and physical sunscreen.
Many Tinosorb sunscreens have Avobenzone as an ingredient and when you combine a zinc oxide sunscreen and Avobenzone, the zinc is said to degrade
the Avobenzone.
I only use one brand of Tinosorb sunscreen (Bioderma Photo Max spray 400ml) and it is fairly greasy but I use it on my hands mainly.
Stick with the Burnout. Great sunscreen. And PPD number is not a concern for zinc sunscreens because PPD is not real relevant in the longer UVA wavelength. (360nm+)
Edited by mustardseed41, 23 June 2015 - 09:56 PM.
Posted 24 June 2015 - 04:09 AM
Any Tinosorb sunblock (Avéne, Bioderma) with a Zinc Oxide sunblock on top (MDSolarScience, EltaMd). You can also apply some powder on top (e.g., Colorscience).
But isn't tinsorb chemical based?
Aren't sunscreens with this ingredient difficult to make less greasey?
What I have loved so fondly about burnout is it's less greasey formulation.
Tinosorb S is chemical based and Tinosorb M is a hybrid which acts as both chemical and physical sunscreen.
Many Tinosorb sunscreens have Avobenzone as an ingredient and when you combine a zinc oxide sunscreen and Avobenzone, the zinc is said to degrade
the Avobenzone.
I only use one brand of Tinosorb sunscreen (Bioderma Photo Max spray 400ml) and it is fairly greasy but I use it on my hands mainly.
Stick with the Burnout. Great sunscreen. And PPD number is not a concern for zinc sunscreens because PPD is not real relevant in the longer UVA wavelength. (360nm+)
So what you're saying is Zinc sunscreens that are well formulated are perfect for the UV wavelengths that we need protection from? So an evenly applied 30spf 19% non-nano zinc formula is adequate for the california UV spectrum?
Posted 24 June 2015 - 04:53 AM
Any Tinosorb sunblock (Avéne, Bioderma) with a Zinc Oxide sunblock on top (MDSolarScience, EltaMd). You can also apply some powder on top (e.g., Colorscience).
But isn't tinsorb chemical based?
Aren't sunscreens with this ingredient difficult to make less greasey?
What I have loved so fondly about burnout is it's less greasey formulation.
Tinosorb S is chemical based and Tinosorb M is a hybrid which acts as both chemical and physical sunscreen.
Many Tinosorb sunscreens have Avobenzone as an ingredient and when you combine a zinc oxide sunscreen and Avobenzone, the zinc is said to degrade
the Avobenzone.
I only use one brand of Tinosorb sunscreen (Bioderma Photo Max spray 400ml) and it is fairly greasy but I use it on my hands mainly.
Stick with the Burnout. Great sunscreen. And PPD number is not a concern for zinc sunscreens because PPD is not real relevant in the longer UVA wavelength. (360nm+)
So what you're saying is Zinc sunscreens that are well formulated are perfect for the UV wavelengths that we need protection from? So an evenly applied 30spf 19% non-nano zinc formula is adequate for the california UV spectrum?
Yes. Are you applying the correct amount?
From Wikipedia:
The dose used in FDA sunscreen testing is 2 mg/cm2 of exposed skin.[50] If one assumes an "average" adult build of height 5 ft 4 in (163 cm) and weight 150 lb (68 kg) with a 32-inch (82-cm) waist, that adult wearing a bathing suit covering the groin area should apply approximately 30 g (or 30 ml, approximately 1 oz) evenly to the uncovered body area. This can be more easily thought of as a "golf ball" size amount of product per body, or at least six teaspoonfuls. Larger or smaller individuals should scale these quantities accordingly.[73] Considering only the face, this translates to about 1/4 to 1/3 of a teaspoon for the average adult face.
Some studies have shown that people commonly apply only 1/2 to 1/4 of the amount recommended for achieving the rated sun protection factor (SPF), and in consequence the effective SPF should be downgraded to a square root or 4th root of the advertised value.[74] A later study found a significant exponential relation between SPF and the amount of sunscreen applied, and the results are closer to linearity than expected by theory.[75]
Posted 24 June 2015 - 08:32 AM
Any Tinosorb sunblock (Avéne, Bioderma) with a Zinc Oxide sunblock on top (MDSolarScience, EltaMd). You can also apply some powder on top (e.g., Colorscience).
But isn't tinsorb chemical based?
Aren't sunscreens with this ingredient difficult to make less greasey?
What I have loved so fondly about burnout is it's less greasey formulation.
Tinosorb S is chemical based and Tinosorb M is a hybrid which acts as both chemical and physical sunscreen.
Many Tinosorb sunscreens have Avobenzone as an ingredient and when you combine a zinc oxide sunscreen and Avobenzone, the zinc is said to degrade
the Avobenzone.
I only use one brand of Tinosorb sunscreen (Bioderma Photo Max spray 400ml) and it is fairly greasy but I use it on my hands mainly.
Stick with the Burnout. Great sunscreen. And PPD number is not a concern for zinc sunscreens because PPD is not real relevant in the longer UVA wavelength. (360nm+)
So what you're saying is Zinc sunscreens that are well formulated are perfect for the UV wavelengths that we need protection from? So an evenly applied 30spf 19% non-nano zinc formula is adequate for the california UV spectrum?
Yes. Are you applying the correct amount?
From Wikipedia:
The dose used in FDA sunscreen testing is 2 mg/cm2 of exposed skin.[50] If one assumes an "average" adult build of height 5 ft 4 in (163 cm) and weight 150 lb (68 kg) with a 32-inch (82-cm) waist, that adult wearing a bathing suit covering the groin area should apply approximately 30 g (or 30 ml, approximately 1 oz) evenly to the uncovered body area. This can be more easily thought of as a "golf ball" size amount of product per body, or at least six teaspoonfuls. Larger or smaller individuals should scale these quantities accordingly.[73] Considering only the face, this translates to about 1/4 to 1/3 of a teaspoon for the average adult face.
Some studies have shown that people commonly apply only 1/2 to 1/4 of the amount recommended for achieving the rated sun protection factor (SPF), and in consequence the effective SPF should be downgraded to a square root or 4th root of the advertised value.[74] A later study found a significant exponential relation between SPF and the amount of sunscreen applied, and the results are closer to linearity than expected by theory.[75]
Is one and a half pea size to my face adequate? I use vitamin E, Emu oil and clothing to protect the rest of my body.
But some days I wear the burnout on my arms. I am thinking of using the burnout primarily for my face and something less expensive for my body. Like maybe a cheaper mineral SS.
Posted 24 June 2015 - 02:53 PM
I personally never understood exactly how much a pea size is. Must less a 1/2 a pea size. 
Seriously, I'm kinda anal about sunscreen (go figure) so I use a plastic 1/4tsp measuring spoon and use that. 1/4 tsp for the face and same amount for the neck and same amount for both hands combined. I normally always wear long sleeve shirts.
I use the Bioderma sunscreen I mentioned before on my hands because I often rub the zinc off that I used to apply on my hands when I reach in my pockets. Plus the 400ml bottle I get from Amazon is much cheaper per ounce than Burnout.
Posted 27 June 2015 - 12:32 AM
Zinc oxide sunblocks can be quite drying. That's why many of them contain oils to offset the effect of dryness. Moreover, most ZnO sunblocks create a whitish cast so it's not easy to apply the sunblock twice without looking like Friendly Ghost Casper. Applying a Tinosorb sunblock underneath the ZnO one is, IMO, takes care of this problem.
Also:
Zinc Oxide however does offer good UVA/UVB coverage, but you're limited to a maximum of 25% in a product.
Unfortunately Zinc Oxide doesn't provide great UVA protection when tested. You're looking at a PPD (a measurement of UVA protection) of 6-8 at a 10-15% concentration.
With Tinosorb S and M, you can achieve PPDs of 40+."
http://www.reddit.co..._had_emergency/
Posted 27 June 2015 - 04:59 AM
Zinc oxide sunblocks can be quite drying. That's why many of them contain oils to offset the effect of dryness. Moreover, most ZnO sunblocks create a whitish cast so it's not easy to apply the sunblock twice without looking like Friendly Ghost Casper. Applying a Tinosorb sunblock underneath the ZnO one is, IMO, takes care of this problem.
Also:
Zinc Oxide however does offer good UVA/UVB coverage, but you're limited to a maximum of 25% in a product.
Unfortunately Zinc Oxide doesn't provide great UVA protection when tested. You're looking at a PPD (a measurement of UVA protection) of 6-8 at a 10-15% concentration.
With Tinosorb S and M, you can achieve PPDs of 40+."
Many people, such as The Fountain and myself, experiment until they find a zinc sunscreen they can tolerate. Such as Burnout. Again your ignoring the face that
Zinc can degrade Avobenzone. Look it up. Don't take my word.
Blah.... I've heard it many times. PPD means jack squat in a zinc sunscreen. PPD correlates more to protection between 320 and 360 nm than protection between 360 and 400 nm.
http://www.longecity...rs/#entry376483
With this in mind, I feel that each individual must make her own risk-benefit analysis of what SPF/PPD to wear. Please refer to this post for quotes from various publications with recommendations for minimum SPF. I have never seen any peer-reviewed publication make a recommendation on a minimum PPD. Please note that PPD is analogous to SPF in that PPD X absorbs 1 - 1/X UVA rays. However, this is a bit of an over-simplication because UVA rays between 320 and 360 nm are higher energy and thus contribute more to the PPD response than UVA rays between 360 and 400 nm, which are lower energy but more penetrating. Thus, PPD correlates more to protection between 320 and 360 nm than protection between 360 and 400 nm. It is virtually impossible to get PPD > 10 and excellent UVA-I protection from sunscreens currently available in the US. Please refer to this post for information on research that has demonstrated the superior efficacy of non-US formulations with Mexoryl and Tinosorb, as well as personal accounts from MUAers. Ultimately, the best approach may be to wear the highest SPF/PPD formulation that you feel comfortable applying liberally and that you can tolerate, afford, and obtain.
http://makeupalley.c....e=sunscreenFAQ
Edited by mustardseed41, 27 June 2015 - 05:03 AM.
Posted 27 June 2015 - 10:44 AM
Many people, such as The Fountain and myself, experiment until they find a zinc sunscreen they can tolerate. Such as Burnout. Again your ignoring the face that
Zinc can degrade Avobenzone. Look it up. Don't take my word.
Blah.... I've heard it many times. PPD means jack squat in a zinc sunscreen. PPD correlates more to protection between 320 and 360 nm than protection between 360 and 400 nm.
http://www.longecity...rs/#entry376483
(...)However, this is a bit of an over-simplication because UVA rays between 320 and 360 nm are higher energy and thus contribute more to the PPD response than UVA rays between 360 and 400 nm, which are lower energy but more penetrating. Thus, PPD correlates more to protection between 320 and 360 nm than protection between 360 and 400 nm.
That last link you posted doesn't work.
PPD does mean something even in a zinc oxide sunscreen. It shows the UVA protection of said zinc oxide sunscreen, which is not higher at 360-400nm than it is at320-360 nm. It also shows that this UVA protection generally is rather low. There is research showing low doses of UVA can cause skin aging so I personally would try to get as much UVA protection as possible.
If you play around with the basf sunscreen simulator, you'll find a few other ingredients which are even better than ZnO even in the longer wavelengths, like tinosorb s aqua or tinosorb m etc... While you can't buy these directly in the US, you can order them online.
In general, PPD does measure between 360-400 nm as well. http://onlinelibrary...02.x/abstract . Wavelengths of >400 nm would be even more penetrating by the way but we would not necessarily say they are more damaging because of that.
The question if I'd rather use a sunscreen with strong protection from 320-380nm vs one with medium protection from 320-400nm is difficult to answer. But I do not think that the latter is always superior or that for the latter "PPD means jack squat", this just isn't true.
Posted 27 June 2015 - 03:49 PM
Not only the Burnout sunscreen has low PPD, it also has low SPF. 18.9% of Zinc Oxide is simply not enough. Again, one has to choose what works best for him/her.
Also, the BurnOut Ocean one has aloe in it, and according to some studies, aloe can be oxidizing in the presence of sunlight.* The author asked a question if the BurnOut sunscreen is the best option considering the amount of sun exposure the author gets in California. And IMO, no, it's not.
"Many Tinosorb sunscreens have Avobenzone as an ingredient and when you combine a zinc oxide sunscreen and Avobenzone, the zinc is said to degrade
the Avobenzone."
MANY but not all!
*Toxicol Lett. 2007 Jan 30;168(2):165-75. Epub 2006 Dec 6.
Photo-irradiation of Aloe vera by UVA--formation of free radicals, singlet oxygen, superoxide, and induction of lipid peroxidation.
Xia Q, Yin JJ, Fu PP, Boudreau MD.
Posted 27 June 2015 - 04:01 PM
Many people, such as The Fountain and myself, experiment until they find a zinc sunscreen they can tolerate. Such as Burnout. Again your ignoring the face that
Zinc can degrade Avobenzone. Look it up. Don't take my word.
Blah.... I've heard it many times. PPD means jack squat in a zinc sunscreen. PPD correlates more to protection between 320 and 360 nm than protection between 360 and 400 nm.
http://www.longecity...rs/#entry376483
(...)However, this is a bit of an over-simplication because UVA rays between 320 and 360 nm are higher energy and thus contribute more to the PPD response than UVA rays between 360 and 400 nm, which are lower energy but more penetrating. Thus, PPD correlates more to protection between 320 and 360 nm than protection between 360 and 400 nm.
That last link you posted doesn't work.
PPD does mean something even in a zinc oxide sunscreen. It shows the UVA protection of said zinc oxide sunscreen, which is not higher at 360-400nm than it is at320-360 nm. It also shows that this UVA protection generally is rather low. There is research showing low doses of UVA can cause skin aging so I personally would try to get as much UVA protection as possible.
If you play around with the basf sunscreen simulator, you'll find a few other ingredients which are even better than ZnO even in the longer wavelengths, like tinosorb s aqua or tinosorb m etc... While you can't buy these directly in the US, you can order them online.
In general, PPD does measure between 360-400 nm as well. http://onlinelibrary...02.x/abstract . Wavelengths of >400 nm would be even more penetrating by the way but we would not necessarily say they are more damaging because of that.
The question if I'd rather use a sunscreen with strong protection from 320-380nm vs one with medium protection from 320-400nm is difficult to answer. But I do not think that the latter is always superior or that for the latter "PPD means jack squat", this just isn't true.
The link works perfect when I try it. Your link proves nothing. You seriously have your head in the sand if you think a good non nano zinc oxide sunscreen has low UVA protection. Eva Victoria....oh Eva....where are you???lol
Edited by mustardseed41, 27 June 2015 - 04:12 PM.
Posted 27 June 2015 - 04:05 PM
Not only the Burnout sunscreen has low PPD, it also has low SPF. 18.9% of Zinc Oxide is simply not enough. Again, one has to choose what works best for him/her.
Also, the BurnOut Ocean one has aloe in it, and according to some studies, aloe can be oxidizing in the presence of sunlight.* The author asked a question if the BurnOut sunscreen is the best option considering the amount of sun exposure the author gets in California. And IMO, no, it's not.
"Many Tinosorb sunscreens have Avobenzone as an ingredient and when you combine a zinc oxide sunscreen and Avobenzone, the zinc is said to degrade
the Avobenzone."
MANY but not all!
*Toxicol Lett. 2007 Jan 30;168(2):165-75. Epub 2006 Dec 6.
Photo-irradiation of Aloe vera by UVA--formation of free radicals, singlet oxygen, superoxide, and induction of lipid peroxidation.
Xia Q, Yin JJ, Fu PP, Boudreau MD.
I get it that you cant wear zinc sunscreen because its too white for you but saying 18.9% zinc is simply not enough is a joke. Most zinc sunscreens are a joke because they usually contain far lower amounts. Like less than 10%
This zinc sunscreen bashing reminds me of people who bash Retin-A cause they cant tolerate it.
Posted 28 June 2015 - 11:40 AM
The link works perfect when I try it. Your link proves nothing. You seriously have your head in the sand if you think a good non nano zinc oxide sunscreen has low UVA protection. Eva Victoria....oh Eva....where are you???lol
Eva Victoria said herself that in her own sunscreen she wants to produce she will use a mix of physical and chemical ingredients. Why do you think that is? Use the BASF sunscreen simulator. Even though zinc oxide protects against a long range of the spectrum, the UVA protection is not high. You can never reach a high UVA protection with zinc oxide alone, only a broad one. Now a different question would be do you need high UVA protection or is a protection factor of 10 enough. Which likely depends on how long you want to be outside in the sun and what you try to prevent. You could also have 5% zinc oxide, would also provide broad protection but even you in this case would not call the UVA protection strong I suppose. The strongest protection has to involve some chemical sunscreen.
Posted 28 June 2015 - 04:12 PM
Not only the Burnout sunscreen has low PPD, it also has low SPF. 18.9% of Zinc Oxide is simply not enough. Again, one has to choose what works best for him/her.
Also, the BurnOut Ocean one has aloe in it, and according to some studies, aloe can be oxidizing in the presence of sunlight.* The author asked a question if the BurnOut sunscreen is the best option considering the amount of sun exposure the author gets in California. And IMO, no, it's not.
"Many Tinosorb sunscreens have Avobenzone as an ingredient and when you combine a zinc oxide sunscreen and Avobenzone, the zinc is said to degrade
the Avobenzone."
MANY but not all!
*Toxicol Lett. 2007 Jan 30;168(2):165-75. Epub 2006 Dec 6.
Photo-irradiation of Aloe vera by UVA--formation of free radicals, singlet oxygen, superoxide, and induction of lipid peroxidation.
Xia Q, Yin JJ, Fu PP, Boudreau MD.
I get it that you cant wear zinc sunscreen because its too white for you but saying 18.9% zinc is simply not enough is a joke. Most zinc sunscreens are a joke because they usually contain far lower amounts. Like less than 10%
This zinc sunscreen bashing reminds me of people who bash Retin-A cause they cant tolerate it.
That's exactly what Eva would tell you. She uses 25% of ZnO in her sunblock. In fact, she used to use Bioderma Photomax with a 25% ZnO sunblock on top. Use the search button:) I can use zinc sunscreen without any problem since I am very pale. Nobody is bashing your beloved BurnOut, I am just expressing my opinion.
Posted 28 June 2015 - 04:29 PM
"An ideal sunblock would have either 25% ZnO which would result in about SPF 20-22 and PPD 22-25 or a sunscreen with Tinosorb M, Tinosorb B, Uvinul A." ~EVA VICTORIA 
Also, one of her most praised sunscreen is a Japanese sunscreen (Allie) with organic and non-organic filters (High PPD and high SPF).
Posted 28 June 2015 - 05:31 PM
"An ideal sunblock would have either 25% ZnO which would result in about SPF 20-22 and PPD 22-25 or a sunscreen with Tinosorb M, Tinosorb B, Uvinul A." ~EVA VICTORIA
Also, one of her most praised sunscreen is a Japanese sunscreen (Allie) with organic and non-organic filters (High PPD and high SPF).
I never claimed I agreed with everything Eva said. There are several things she has said that I don't agree with. One being re-applying zinc sunscreen every 2 hours.
She has also said numerous times that around 20% zinc is fine.
Posted 28 June 2015 - 08:50 PM
mustardseed41, well, then let's agree to disagree. If you disagree with something, it does not mean that what the other person is saying is a total joke.
If you told me the sun was not hot, I would disagree with you and say your opinion is a total joke.
Fair enough...we'll agree to disagree. 
Posted 30 June 2015 - 02:41 AM
Posted 05 July 2015 - 07:29 AM
Isn't tinsorb what every american sunscreen uses? What was the filter UK sunscreens used, mexoryl?
And is there any justifiable reason at, in the california UV spectrum, for somebody to go from burnout spf 32 face and body to a sunblock containing a combination of chemical and physical filters? Especially if re-application every couple hours is not a convenient option?
Posted 05 July 2015 - 10:41 AM
You may wish to experiment with putting vitamin c stable analogs on first before you apply other sunscreens.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3673383/
Do stable analogs work though? I have no strong opinion on this because of my limited knowledge but read some time ago that stable analogs are not comparable to e.g. l-ascorbic acid or tocopherol. I can imagine that it makes sense for a stable analog to not scavenge radicals as readily because it is stable. Are you aware of research on stable analogs specifically?
Isn't tinsorb what every american sunscreen uses? What was the filter UK sunscreens used, mexoryl?
And is there any justifiable reason at, in the california UV spectrum, for somebody to go from burnout spf 32 face and body to a sunblock containing a combination of chemical and physical filters? Especially if re-application every couple hours is not a convenient option?
No, avobenzone is what is used in most american sunscreens. A justifiable reason would be increased protection. Reapplication is not a relevant factor when deciding between physical / chemical as long as the chemical sunscreen does not rely on avobenzone. Reasons to reapply are a) if the product is removed from the skin, which applies to physical and chemical filteres and b) if the filter is inactivated by sun exposure, which is mainly an issue with avobenzone and not chemical filters per se.
Posted 05 July 2015 - 04:19 PM
Well its July 2015. I have my doubts it will get approved soon. Damn FDA. http://www.reddit.co...l_by_july_2015/
Posted 05 July 2015 - 08:26 PM
You may wish to experiment with putting vitamin c stable analogs on first before you apply other sunscreens.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3673383/
Do stable analogs work though? I have no strong opinion on this because of my limited knowledge but read some time ago that stable analogs are not comparable to e.g. l-ascorbic acid or tocopherol. I can imagine that it makes sense for a stable analog to not scavenge radicals as readily because it is stable. Are you aware of research on stable analogs specifically?
Isn't tinsorb what every american sunscreen uses? What was the filter UK sunscreens used, mexoryl?
And is there any justifiable reason at, in the california UV spectrum, for somebody to go from burnout spf 32 face and body to a sunblock containing a combination of chemical and physical filters? Especially if re-application every couple hours is not a convenient option?
No, avobenzone is what is used in most american sunscreens. A justifiable reason would be increased protection. Reapplication is not a relevant factor when deciding between physical / chemical as long as the chemical sunscreen does not rely on avobenzone. Reasons to reapply are a) if the product is removed from the skin, which applies to physical and chemical filteres and b) if the filter is inactivated by sun exposure, which is mainly an issue with avobenzone and not chemical filters per se.
But isn't Avobenzone one of the generic filters categorized under the Tinsorb umbrella along with several other's?
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users
Community Forum Software by IP.Board
Licensed to: ImmInst.org
