36 replies to this topic

[Mango]

So I took piracetam 400 mg around 2 pm, took it on an empty stomach to quicken the absorption. After 40 or so minutes I've noticed an effect similar to that of alprazolam.

 

Numbed emotions, narrowed peripheral vision, inhibited abstract reasoning (big time). Nothing like people said it would be. I even started to forget about trivial stuff such as where I left my keys, etc.

 

I've experienced a mild anxiolytic effect for sure, but absolutely NO cognitive enhancement in any direction whatsoever! In fact, I felt like a moron struggling with relatively simple tasks.

 

Memory benefits were NONEXISTENT as well. Inability to concentrate on whatever I was reading, a slight apathy (I don't give a f... attitude), lack of social anxiety (comparable to drinking a couple of shots) and that covers about it.

 

The next day at 10 am I tried the same with 250 mg choline (since some say it replenishes the choline drained by racetams, some say that for something like that to occur one needs to consume large quantities of piracetam first, but I took it for the sake of the test nevertheless). Absolutely no difference in effect. Later around 6 pm I took another 400 mg of piracetam which gave me insomnia only to be cured by 5 mg of diazepam. Another side effect was a strong strong feeling of agitation. Nervousness beyong comprehension.

 

That was my experience with piraceteam. It was my first (and probably last) nootropic to use.

 

I've read some testimonials claiming verbal fluency, "limitless" mind, etc. I am highly dissapointed since I couldn't even quote a comic book had I read one while "on piracetam".

[OneScrewLoose]

I get no cognitive benefits from racetams whatsoever. I might as well be eating magnesium stearate filler powder. Actually, with enough of that, I might even get some benefits from the magnesium, which would give it a leg-up over the racetams in regards to me.

[jroseland]

How much Potassium do you guys have in your diets?

[OneScrewLoose]

How much Potassium do you guys have in your diets?

 

I plug bananas.

[Seganfredo]

Alright. So I just subscribed myself into the Forum to talk about Piracetam.

 

You could say my experience is quite similtar to yours, Mango. I read all that "piracetam is the safest drug imaginable - only positive effects". My experience says: bullshit. Seems my brief acceptance of a chemical has come to an end. I guess I'll only keep my phytonootropics.

 

 

My experience (on a 800mg or 400mg dose):

• Numbed emotions, - check
• Very good anxiolytic effect/lack of social anxiety (better than drinking a couple of shots) - on the first two days -
• Absolute drowziness/sleepy-headedness to the point of not being able to function and HAVING to sleep it off;
• Waking up with/ feeling a scary numbness of limbs (foot, arms... and brain?? It's what I feel.) - this has been a bad enough red alert to prompt me to enter this forum.
• Shortness of breath, and waking up with the impression I wasn't breathing enough/properly - I actually almost stop breathing if I don't pay attention to my breath;
• Strong sexual enhancement - on the first two days
• Mild memory benefits on long forgotten memories (weird, not very useful, but was OK)
• Slightly augmented perception - brighter vision and accentuated smells - on the first day only, except the brightness (which is not very positive anymore);
• Mild/slightly serious depression (on second and third day - today - and seemingly getting progressively worse with every dose) - never had to struggle with that shit anymore since I solved myself on the first years of my adulthood; I feel dumb as hell for trying a minimum dose a few hours ago, as I had cleared myself of the drug-induced depression after waiting if off for a long time;
• Distortion of experience of time - closed my eyes on bed, and "a month/week" was experienced in 5m of clock time (second day). This experience was normal, that day.

• Inhibited abstract reasoning (big time). - check (1.6g dose)
• Continuously lost simple terms to the tip of my tongue (verbal fluency seems to have been restored after I stopped) 1.6g dose
• Forgetting about trivial stuff such as where I left my keys, etc - check 1.6g dose
• Felt like a moron struggling with relatively simple tasks - check 1.6g dose
• Apathy/Zero motivation (I don't give a f.../meh.../what am I doing here attitude) which deeply hinders me wanting to do my work, instead of the opposite 1.6g dose
• Inability to concentrate on a task AND GET MY JOB DONE. HOW HARD IT MADE FOR ME TO FOCUS AND PRODUCE!! 1.6g dose and continued after, while less pronounced

As as addendum, after a despairing SSRI induced-ED case in my teens that took about three eternal years to get satisfactorily corrected and even longer than that to stop being an issue (try to fathom the despair - it was during my teens), I've been leading a VERY natural and selective lifestyle that only leads to long-term sexual heath/improvement (I can be invited for sushi, yeah, but keep away all that soya shit). So, even though it was sexually enhancing to me (damn near to the point of turning me into a satyr), I rather not even play with that as I've been doing fine enough without it.

 

 

And that was MY experience with piraceteam. For me too, "It was my first (and probably last) [chemical] nootropic to use". Much more bad than good came from it. It's the third day since I've tried it and I can't function even as properly as before.

[Duchykins]

Should try low dosing it by itself.  500 mg.  Then if it's still shit, toss it.

 

Your breathing thing though?   That's elevated ACh activity for sure; respiratory arrest is the biggest reason cholinergic crisis can be lethal even if you're in a hospital, because there's not much docs can do about it.  This is not to say that the noots can cause a cholinergic crisis, they shouldn't be nearly that potent with the ACh activity in healthy people and at reasonable doses.  But if you push it you can still get a ghost of the kind of symptoms one would see in cholinergic crisis like flaccid paralysis, numbness.

 

I would get exactly the same thing with breathing, even my doc was thinking about diagnosing me with sleep apnea (I would be drifting off to sleep and then all of a sudden explode out of bed in a terrifying adrenaline rush, gasping for air, because I had been having longer and longer "pauses" between shallow breaths as I was going deeper into a sleep state, and the oxygen deprivation was enough to triggers some alarms in my body) (also waking from dead sleep in the middle of the night the same way) before I figured out what the problem was: bacopa and its acetylcholinesterase inhibition.   All that shit cleared up the day after I tossed out the bacopa.  I still take piracetam time to time with no problem at all.   So if you had one problem with acetylcholine then you probably had a few more and didn't realize it.  You're not taking any choline with the racetams I hope.  

Edited by Duchykins, 16 July 2015 - 07:48 PM.

[Seganfredo]

I did try 400mg this morning with black coffee and it was shit. Brain-fog, dysphoria, zero motivation/work effectiveness and severe numbness and uncomfortable brain/heart feelings back again. Still not ok now.

 

Please explain better the "cholinergic crisis" as it's pertained to piracetam use. Seems to me a red alert and I'll research all I can about it immediatelly.

 

All I'm taking: Panax ginseng; Hypericum perforatum; huge doses of complex B (Beneroc from Beyer and lots of Brewer's yeast [a source of choline]); Guarana extract + too much coffeee (as usual);  Equisetum arvense; lots of golden linseed and chia seeds; I drink about 2L of milk a day and eat loads of oats, Brazil nuts, gelatine and bananas. Also, I don't ingest callories from 2am to 19pm (intermittent fasting).

 

 

I'm researching now, but can't find anything that's useful (specially while I'm not feeling that wonderful from the piracetam). I also wonder what to do to counter the condition: exercise? Drinking water? I'm at a loss for how to deal with it. I'm kind of alarmed from the physical responses. Any info will be truly appreciated.

Edited by Seganfredo, 16 July 2015 - 08:51 PM.

[Duchykins]

 

 

 

I did try 400mg this morning with black coffee and it was shit. Brain-fog, dysphoria and severe numbness and uncomfortable brain/heart feelings back again.

 

Please explain better the "cholinergic crisis" as it's pertained to piracetam use. Seems to me a red alert and I'll research al I can about it immediatelly.

 

I've been waking up with the feeling of having skipped breathing. Also, it's happening while I'm awake. If I'm not paying attention, I don't breathe that properly.

 

All I'm taking: Panax ginseng; Hypericum perforatum; huge doses of complex B (Beneroc from Beyer and lots of Brewer's yeast); Guarana extract + too much coffeee (as usual);  Equisetum arvense; lots of golden linseed and chia seeds;

I drink about 2L of milk a day and eat loads of oats and bananas. Also, I don't ingest callories from 2am to 19pm (intermittent fasting).

 

Any info will be truly appreciated. I'm a rightfully alarmed from these physical responses. I'll go research, now.

 

 

 

There's no cholinergic crisis with piracetam by itself.  

 

Actually, you know the studies where they megadosed subjects with piracetam, looking for toxicity?

 

I believe the fact that none of them died from respiratory failure means piracetam is not nearly as potent or involved with acetylcholine as it is believed to be.  If the studies were legit.  

 

There have also been some nutjobs who have taken seriously ill-advised huge doses of piracetam without reporting breathing difficulty or needing to go to the hospital.  Unless they were trolling.  But people do sometimes complain of chest heaviness or breathing weirdness when taking some cholinergic with a racetam (but they blame the racetam first).

 

Multiple papers report on relationships between piracetam and acetylcholine always report on the muscarinic than nicotinic (even though I've seen one that says piracetam does not interact with muscarinic receptors directly), so that only drives the nail further home.   

 

You certainly don't need a "choline source" with it to make it work "better" (that would really just be the cholinergic having its own effects on someone, since Alpha GPC and Citicoline can be nootropic all by themselves).

 

 

Caffeine is cholinergic though.  Brewer's yeast contains quite a bit of choline.  

 

Chia seed's choline content is no match for flaxseed's, there's not much to worry about there.  

 

Linseed is often on lists of foods high in choline though.

 

A few studies found that several of the ginseng varieties are acetylcholinesterase inhibitors.  Actually quite a few of the noot herbs are.  

 

Panax ginseng specifically was found to trigger ACh release and indirectly stimulate muscarinic receptors.

 

Guarana doubtlessly also messes with ACh just because it contains caffeine, but I don't know how strongly or weakly or anything else about that.

 

Horsetail is beyond my ken, you'll have to google around for stuff on horsetail and ACh.  

 

St John's both inhibits choline reuptake and triggers ACh release depending on dose.

 

 

 

You don't have to be scared.  Just stop taking the herbs for now, reduce linseed and yeast (you don't have to stop them altogether because they are just foods with choline which is not a big deal), I'm sure that will help.  After a week or two, you could reintroduce your favorite herb and see how you do with just the one.

 

It's not the piracetam.

 

In the meantime it's important that you stay calm because getting all anxious just makes it worse.  Don't try taking stimulants because that won't help either, or sedatives.  There was several times when I woke in the night that I found lying partly on my stomach with some pillows propped under my left side and leg (so you're kind of tilting more toward the right side) let me breathe easier and go back to sleep (although it surely wasn't quality sleep).

 

That might actually have more to do with easing the load on your heart (thereby increasing oxygenation all around)  than your breathing muscles, putting more weight on the right side to sleep.  

 

But stay calm - if you were going to be in serious trouble it would have happened already, okay?  It will all wear off when you stop the supps that are doing this.

Edited by Duchykins, 16 July 2015 - 09:10 PM.

[Aurel]

Duchy: do you know if Piracetam needs time to grow? Took 4.8g yesterday and didnt felt any effect at all. After going through some old threads I ordered some more Pira (its cheap enough) as they suggest 4.8g two times a day which would empty the bottle in about a week or so. Will continue trying.

[Duchykins]

Stayed hydrated, don't go do a big work out since you'll just lose a bunch of electrolytes.  Just do your normal stuff.

Duchy: do you know if Piracetam needs time to grow? Took 4.8g yesterday and didnt felt any effect at all. After going through some old threads I ordered some more Pira (its cheap enough) as they suggest 4.8g two times a day which would empty the bottle in about a week or so. Will continue trying.

 

 

Grow?  You mean, effects building up or something?

[88LS]

Wow, what a redoncolous thread... If you don't like the effects of Piracetam, don't take it. It's as simple as that, no need to cry about it.

[Duchykins]

Wow, what a redoncolous thread... If you don't like the effects of Piracetam, don't take it. It's as simple as that, no need to cry about it.

 

 

Threads that start like this often become informative, so they're not useless or stupid.  People should keep talking about what they experience when they're trying these supplements, that actually part of the reason boards like this exist in the first place (since they're all so understudied).

[Aurel]

Stayed hydrated, don't go do a big work out since you'll just lose a bunch of electrolytes.  Just do your normal stuff.

Duchy: do you know if Piracetam needs time to grow? Took 4.8g yesterday and didnt felt any effect at all. After going through some old threads I ordered some more Pira (its cheap enough) as they suggest 4.8g two times a day which would empty the bottle in about a week or so. Will continue trying.

 

 

Grow?  You mean, effects building up or something?

 

Yes. Usually you expect to get some immediate effects from such a substance. So either I am a nonresponder or it will get better after 7 days or so. What do you think?

[Seganfredo]

Wow, what a redoncolous thread... If you don't like the effects of Piracetam, don't take it. It's as simple as that, no need to cry about it.

 

What a retarded, pitiful answer. If you don't like the content of the thread, abstain from broadcasting your uselessness and leave. It's as simple as that, no need to cry about it.

 

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

 

 

Back to what's important: Duchykins, your're saying that this was caused by my suplementation and has NOTHING to do with the piracetam?

 

I've always used widely varying amounts of those substances and it can be easily said that I abused them many times, never having this response.

 

The only two things I've implemented since this breathing thing started were Piracetam and Beneroc (833% daily intake of thiamine, 307% of riboflavin, 250% of nicotinamide, 110,4% of calcium pantothenic, 308% of pyridoxine) which means that, with my Brewer's Yeast intake, I definitely had waaayy too much Complex B vits, higher than 1k daily intake.

 

Also, around the net, it seems to be way too common for people to report tingling and numbness from Piracetam.

 

btw, I reached the posting limit for today...

Edited by Seganfredo, 16 July 2015 - 10:37 PM.

[Duchykins]

 

 

 

Duchy: do you know if Piracetam needs time to grow? Took 4.8g yesterday and didnt felt any effect at all. After going through some old threads I ordered some more Pira (its cheap enough) as they suggest 4.8g two times a day which would empty the bottle in about a week or so. Will continue trying.

 

 

Grow?  You mean, effects building up or something?

Yes. Usually you expect to get some immediate effects from such a substance. So either I am a nonresponder or it will get better after 7 days or so. What do you think?

 

 

 

I really don't know.  Piracetam isn't supposed to be one of the feel-good noots though.  You shouldn't "feel" it.

 

I only notice it when I'm actually out doing stuff.  If I have to be talking, I'll notice that I'm speaking more easily than usual, or while studying, I "scramble" less often and take my time.  Not major stuff, but helpful.   Piracetam is one of those things you should take for a good while before reaping full benefits.

 

I do the low doses though, otherwise I'll get a migraine (a real migraine, not one of those "you need choline" headaches, especially since my body has little tolerance for even weak cholinergics) since piracetam does tinker around a little bit in glutamatergic systems last time I checked examine.com. 

Edited by Duchykins, 16 July 2015 - 10:13 PM.

[Aurel]

Thanks!

 

offtopic: Duchy, at the moment I see your email address instead of your username. is that intended? Better check with an admin otherwise.

[Duchykins]

Yeah I'm trying to get it fixed.  Thank you

[88LS]

I like to think this forum is about people experimenting and finding SUCCESS with nootropics and supplements, not bitching and moaning like a bunch of old ninnies. Sad what this forum has become over the last couple of months... No wonder most of the intelligent discussion is moving to Reddit/Nootropics.

[88LS]

To prove my point just look at the joining dates of you two: The OP (Mango) Member Since 21 Jun 2015 and Seganfredo Member Since Yesterday, 06:22 PM. The popularization of this forum has led to an increase of pseudo-intellectual newcomers such as yourselves. Why would you keep bumping your head against the wall, if something doesn't work for you, MOVE ON. Nobody is placing a gun against your head and forcing you to take Piracetam. If you would take the time to search you will see that there has been hundreds of threads just like this one, discussing the effects of Piracetam.

[Duchykins]

 

 

 

Back to what's important: Duchykins, your're saying that this was caused by my suplementation and has NOTHING to do with the piracetam?

 

I've always used widely varying amounts of those substances and it can be easily said that I abused them many times, never having this response.

 

The only two things I've implemented since this breathing thing started were Piracetam and Beneroc (833% daily intake of thiamine, 307% of riboflavin, 250% of nicotinamide, 110,4% of calcium pantothenic, 308% of pyridoxine) which means that, with my Brewer's Yeast intake, I definitely had waaayy too much Complex B vits, higher than 1k daily intake.

 

Also, around the net, it seems to be way too common for people to report tingling and numbness from Piracetam.

 

btw, I reached the posting limit for today...

 

 

I almost didn't didn't see this edit, sorry.

 

You probably aren't getting an obscene amount of Bs from the Brewer's yeast.

 

This is a nutrition profile for 30g serving of the yeast:

 

http://nutritiondata...ustom/1323569/2

 

 

 

I'll help you put these numbers into perspective by telling you how much B vits I take, going on about 2 years now of doing this:

 

an active B complex that is like half of a B-50

extra 100 mg riboflavin and thiamine 

extra 300 mg pantethine

extra 5mg methylcobalamin  

 

so it's like this

 

B1 =           benfotiamine   25mg (1,667%)    +    thiamine hydrochloride  100mg (6,667%)   

B2 =           riboflavin 5'-phosphate  25mg (1,471%)   +    riboflavin USP  100mg  (5,882%)

B3 =           inositol hexanicotinate   25mg (250%)

B5 =           pantethine 325mg  

B6 =           pyridoxal 5-phosphate   25mg  (1,250%)

B9 =           folate as 5-mthf      400mcg  (100%)

B12            methylcobalamin    5250mcg  (87,500%)

and a few others that are not relevant here

 

I could actually triple the riboflavin, double the thiamine, double the niacin, triple the pantethine and I would still be fine.  Those would be closer to doses used in medicine (mainstream, not alternative) for various issues.  I do take these Bs for migraines, but a normal healthy person would be fine with the Bs I take as long as they not take high doses of one or two of the Bs all by themselves for months at a time.

 

As for the piracetam, as I said earlier, the racetams tend to be the first to be blamed for any side effect someone is having - but piracetam is very very rarely taken by itself.   Since a lot of people still think they need to take choline with piracetam there are many who are taking unnecessary amounts of alpha GPC or citicoline and it's bothering them, but they think it's the piracetam.

 

But go ahead and stop all that stuff if you want, stop everything until you go back to normal.  Good luck and hope you feel better.

[Baten]

The popularization of this forum has led to an increase of pseudo-intellectual newcomers such as yourselves.

 

Such elitism, I could hardly contain myself from laughing.

 

Newcomers to the longecity forums really isn't a bad thing, and should be welcomed if anything. The idea of a select little elitist circle really irks me a lot...

Edited by Baten, 17 July 2015 - 07:07 PM.

[Duchykins]

 

 

 

Such elitism, I could hardly contain myself from laughing.

 

Newcomers to the longecity forums really isn't a bad thing, and should be welcomed if anything. The idea of a select little elitist circle really irks me a lot...

 

 

You definitely have a good point there.

 

But I also see a lot of cranks LongeCity... they seem to be louder, post more often and generally outnumber the voices of reason...

 

Newcomers should still be welcomed.  Actually I think the cranks help to bore, exasperate and drive off some of the more serious members, which is something you would just expect to see in any kind of discussion board.

[Seganfredo]

blah blah, blah, retarded shit no one cares

 

No one asked and no one cares what you like to think. What are you still doing here?

 

I've said it but it bears repeating: you're useless. To prove my point just look at your number of posts: 77. Three out of those we well know are about bitching. Someone who has 77 measly posts can't talk about "the populartization of this forum." What? It happened during your 77 posts? GOODNESS LORD!, were they apart, then! Try to copy people who are cool and got knowledge to share, like Duchykins (1.000 posts - btw, congrats, lol). Who knows, you might even make some friends and quit being such an imbecile. Baten's got haft a thousand and he welcomes newcomers.

 

Take your own advice: "Why would you keep bumping your head against the wall, if something doesn't work for you, MOVE ON. Nobody is placing a gun against your head and forcing you" to be on this threat, so why don't you LEAVE. Go create some other post or play in the streets, anal retentive child.


 

Edited by Seganfredo, 18 July 2015 - 03:20 AM.

[Wingless]

Piracetam effects everyone differently. I can't think of any substance that has a more diverse range of subjective effects. Almost every discussion about Piracetam (and racetams in general) turns into a pointless argument. If a certain substance has negative effects on you, stop taking it, it's that simple.

 

I had to experiment a lot with dosages to notice any effect with Piracetam. I take it in doses of 4.8g or more, always with ALCAR and fish oil, usually with alpha GPC as well. The fish oil and ALCAR seem to help much more than a choline source.

 

When it works, it has powerful effects. Heightened awareness is a big one. I've also noticed it can be a strong antidepressant.

 

I should also add that Piracetam only works when I'm well-rested, eating healthy, and in a mindful/present sort of state. If you're underslept, eating shitty foods, and neurotic, it probably won't do a damn thing.

Edited by Wingless, 18 July 2015 - 04:07 AM.

[Duchykins]

 If you're underslept, eating shitty foods, and neurotic, it probably won't do a damn thing.

 

Nailed it.  That's how it is with all these supps.

 

It's also the same with migraine prophylaxis.  The number one med for that (for me) is ambien so I can keep the sleep constant.  If I don't have that then it doesn't matter how fancy my stacks are or what other prescription prophylactics I'm using, it will all go to shit.

[ron45]

Piracetam and many other noots remind me of the emperor's new hype. The hardest working ingredient in the average stack is caffiene. Smart drugs are a nice idea. But even the prescription stuff leaves something to be desired i.e. L deprenyl, why just L and no D which is reported to twice the clout in dopamine chemistry. I bought the book read it a lot and got enthused spent a bunch of money [ it's why your are here people] to find out what doesn't work in my quest for better concentration/focus. And my friends I'm here to tell you I don't have any clinically or experiencialy verified initials to flaunt. I just want to concentrate/focus better. Modafinil is great but no cigar in the focus area. l dep. the same.

 

I just left a website that should be pilloried for defamation of the name forum. There are several thousand hits and not on reply. ZERO discuussion and everything you click on claiming to be experience discussion is HYPE in full RGB color. They should also be called to the carpet for giving `nutriment' a bad and misleading name. Even if it's not a real word. I don't wish them luck. It's an obvious hit bordello. They make this forum look like Oxford or Sanford. We get real questions and mostly well informed if not scholarly replies. This may be the last bastian of good information on the subjects discussed here.

 

Ron

[Seganfredo]

Thanks a lot for the hand, Duchy, really. Yesterday night I wasn't feeling that great. My body temp dropped to the point my whole body was shivering like crazy for almost an hour and my nails were blue. I got my shirt off and ventilated my body, which helped me autoregulate, then put loads of clothes, took my mind off of it to relax, meditated, did some self-hypnosis.. Today I woke up normal and now I'm excellent again. Took a freezing cold shower and did great in my bjj classes, etc. At most I'm having a slight headache and weird sensation inside my eyeballs from time to time.

 

My best plan for now is to give it a few days and then give a tiny, 400mg or less, dose a try in the evening. I definitely won't lose an entire week to it again, but I'll try again, consciously.

 

 

@wingless "If a certain substance has negative effects on you, stop taking it, it's that simple."
No, it's obviously not that simple. All one has to do, most times, is to get used to the medicine, change dose, stop or start taking it at a certain time or with something; whatever. If it were that simple you should've dropped it as soon as it had no effect on you. Why bother? It's not having any effect.

To me, it worked wonders the first time, last weekend, when I skipped sleeping and went straight to a birthday lunch. I felt totally in control and calm. The dreamy effect of not having had any sleep was lessened and I was thinking clearly and just hit the bed at night.

Might even have something to do with the terror bodily responses I had the next day.

Edited by Seganfredo, 18 July 2015 - 06:12 AM.

[Duchykins]

I'm glad you're feeling better.  I know it was a horrible scary experience that I wouldn't wish on anybody.

 

 

[Aurel]

Do LongeCity members still do 23me testings? Would be great to compare Fredos genetics with others, as his experience is clearly one odd one. Maybe if we would gather enough data from different members we could start to give better advices on which stack would work for whom.

[Duchykins]

Do LongeCity members still do 23me testings? Would be great to compare Fredos genetics with others, as his experience is clearly one odd one. Maybe if we would gather enough data from different members we could start to give better advices on which stack would work for whom.

 

Funny you should say that when there is a 23andme box right here on my desk.  I haven't sent it back in yet.