167 replies to this topic

[platypus]

There is no algorithm for multiplication that does not get slower when the numbers get larger. Infinite lookup tables are impossible. There's no special "Cantorian infinity maths" that will magically make computation infinitely cheap. Therefore the size of computation is a huge problem.

[Julia36]

There is no algorithm for multiplication that does not get slower when the numbers get larger.

 

Infinite lookup tables are impossible.

 

There's no special "Cantorian infinity maths" that will magically make computation infinitely cheap.

 

 

Therefore the size of computation is a huge problem.

 

Yes, you deflate. Compact. Use determinism to put in few essentilas that necessary inflate to requored nu,bers including orders of infinity when run.

If you dont subscribe to determinism  agree you are in difficuoties and many thigns will be impossible for you.

 

 

You use progressive deflating symbols and this is indeed an algorithm!

 

eg e prime X pi = new symbol.

 

The consitutents of a new symbol might be  only the 7 marks in a digit 0->9. Dunno of this helps.

 

But a universal symbol book can also be gridded and to wroite it you can put 1 (page) 27(bottom co-ordinate) 3 (vertical co-ordinate).

 

You are dimension inflating there.

 

You read a map and arrive at your destination. But the map doesn;t need to be as big as the territory.

We have maps of the world from your computer terminal - indeed google is mapping the glaxy , then the uinioverse like it does street view.

 

the idea is resprentations.

 

 

instead of writing

 

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

 

169399375105820974944592307816406286208998628034825342117067982 <<<CONTENT_TOO_LONG>>>

 

 

 

You could write

 

π

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by the hanged man, 17 September 2015 - 12:19 PM.

[Julia36]

Unfortunately Longecity thinks it would have to run this webpage for an infinite time to allow the content I have tried to post above.

 

So do some maths departments who have computers running pi for decades.

 

There are other techniques eg samplings, approximations, amplitudenals, and tons of other shortcuts that can be applied predictively or retrodictively in mathematics.

 

 

 

 

You beleive in a universe of unresolvable mysteries. I beleive in a Cosmos of complete law and order, where nothing moves but by law, rule, order, number and limit, and is fathomable and inevitable.

 

That some of those laws are infinities is interesting but certainly not prohibitive.

 

Dimension maths and infinity maths are not terribly advanced areas I guess.

I find it helpful to putthings in a fish tank and study them.

 

This way even the most complex maths in 3 dimansions is understandable as it has limits, parameters, degrees of freedom and  ABSOLUTE DETERMINISM

 

2D algorithm

 

 

Here is an algoritrhm in a fish tank.

 

 

 

This one below baffles quantum theorists:

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by the hanged man, 17 September 2015 - 12:37 PM.

[Julia36]

>>>

Infinite lookup tables are impossible.<<<

 

No they're not. You simply convert infinite sequences to simple symbols and deflate them.

 

-why you can do it in nested hierarchies...

 

 

>>>There's no special "Cantorian infinity maths" that will magically make computation infinitely cheap.<<<

 

you are introducing cost, which is irrelevant, unloess you mean enerfgyu trade offs.

 

and specialsness of Cantorian infinity maths but it;s a logical unfolding from Cantor's accepted proof of infinity, and his work on orders of magnitude of infinities.

 

So you can multiply infinities of infinities and you can do this in  cardinal or any other seequences.

 

It's basic artithmentic!

 

>>>>> the size of computation is a huge problem.<<<<<

 

Funny.

Edited by the hanged man, 17 September 2015 - 12:50 PM.

[platypus]

It is easy to come up with computational questions that cannot be computed in this universe in a reasonable time because this universe is so small (that the required computer does not fit in it). Do you think that every well-posed question has an answer that can be found?

[Julia36]

No they must be illogically construed. A question is by definiation something capable of being answered or else you are tail chasing.

 

eg how many bicycles ?

 

But even then it's valid to just pen  a symbol for 'unknown'

 

and come back to it later.

 

 

 

_Platypus, what's your game?

 

Are you building something?

 

 

 

[platypus]

Theory and practice are very different...we are limited by both. 

[Julia36]

They are either different or not different. My view is that a rigorous theory is the same as a practice. amd have argued this in some labs.

 

Their argument for difference was that one couldn't predictl the environment. This has been a fundamental error on logic for hundreds of years which I shall now correct:

 

 

A theory is manifest in the mind. THe extenal tools like papert or sand or tablet and writing implement are not theory but practice.

 

Theory is from the Greek 'contemplation'.

 

You cant contemplate with tools, but in the mind alone.

 

Practice is much more limited. It depnds on being able to assemble matter in environments over which you have no absolute control.

 

A wind a germ, sunlight, some unknown may alter your experiment and confound the result.

 

that may be what is happening with the so-called observer effect in Quantum Theory.

 

Buit in pre-Socratic philosophy, correct thought was held superior because it takes place in the mind, and the importance of rigor of thought, long since discarded, was everything.

 

Einstein revived it with 'thought experiments' but it is seldom used and almost nevr used tothe exclusion of physical experiment.

Mathematics on paper is not contemplation but use of a tool in either.

 

In fact there is no difference, just a difficulty as you say. But I think it surpassable enough to compile expansions our of minds eg in microchip supplments to the brain. And these are already in use and new ones prototyping.

 

I confess I am at sea from this simple statement of yours.

 

Mathematics means you dont need brute calculation. Symbolic abstraction computes pretty well anything knowable. Mathematics is just number short-cuts.

From the course of the sperm up the uterus to the death chortle phut of the last electron of nerve, everything in you is caused by inevitable physics and cannot be hidden by numbers of events, which is bulk layers of time snowed into quantity. They wait for computing to separate and simulate.

 

Limits?

 

Language changes.  The dyanamic nature of things increases as you add dimenions in analysing.

 

But things can be thought simply, by breaking them down. One doesn't need a powwerful holding mind nor memory, just simplicity.

 

Limits are parameters and they are tempory, but hold long enough to use as laws.

 

If we get ahead of changes we can make amazing predictions and retrodictions..

 

But let no-one be fooled that the early success of technologies means we must master the infinite cosmos.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by the hanged man, 17 September 2015 - 02:11 PM.

[platypus]

>>>

Infinite lookup tables are impossible.<<<

 

No they're not. You simply convert infinite sequences to simple symbols and deflate them.

Again, you seem to have no idea what you are talking about. I think you should get more education in engineering and hard sciences. This should be possible online for free today. 

[Julia36]

 

>>>

Infinite lookup tables are impossible.<<<

 

No they're not. You simply convert infinite sequences to simple symbols and deflate them.

Again, you seem to have no idea what you are talking about. I think you should get more education in engineering and hard sciences. This should be possible online for free today. 

 

 

Platypus, ad hominem is not argument and is against this forum's rules you have agreed to follow on sign up.

 

I censor you.

 

 

 

FYI

from the online philosophy club.

 

 

"

 

Ad Hominem Arguments and Personal Attacks

Post Number:#1  March 12th, 2008, 11:38 pm

Philosophical Discussion: Ad Hominem Arguments and Personal Attacks
by Scott Hughes

Philosophical discussions generally consist of productive debate in which two or more people attempt to rationally argue for different sides of a question. They each try to think up and explain a logical argument in support of their position while constructively trying to offer logical rebuttals of the other person's position. Though called arguments, the philosophers generally have a lot of respect for each other and enjoy having the discussion in a friendly tone. In fact, it becomes very difficult to have a worthwhile philosophical discussion without a lot of respectfulness and friendliness.

Unfortunately, sometimes one person may use an ad hominem argument. An ad hominem argument consists of replying to a person's argument by merely attacking the character of the person making the argument. An ad hominem argument is also called a personal attack or an irrelevant insult. For example, if Joe claims that the sky is blue, Bob would be making an ad hominem argument if he responded by saying, "No, it isn't because you are an ugly moron."

An ad hominem is a fallacy, and it is illogical. Worse yet, it may cause the discussion to break down into an unproductive name-calling contest.

You may have trouble distinguishing an ad hominem argument from a non-fallaciously offensive statement. A claim or argument may not be an ad hominem argument just because somebody feels insulted or offended by it. You can figure out whether a statement is an ad hominem or not by asking yourself if the statement is truly relevant to the discussion. If the statement is evidence of the person's position about the topic, then it may not be an ad hominem even if it could be offensive. Nonetheless, if the statement just attacks the other person in the discussion, then it is an ad hominem. Generally, name-calling of any kind is an ad hominem. Additionally, saying that the other person is ignorant, stupid, or such will also almost always be an ad hominem.

You can avoid using ad hominem arguments by trying to stay on-topic in any discussion. Additionally, try to speak as nicely, politely, and respectfully as possible. If you constantly try to remain as nice and polite as possible, you will probably not slip up and make an ad hominem. To that end, avoid discussing anything while angry. If you feel angry or emotional, make sure to take extra care to speak or write in as nicely and respectfully of a tone as possible. Focus on making points only about the main topic, and do not comment on the other person's character or abilities (unless you wish to give them an honest compliment).

If someone calls you names or insults you, do not respond by doing the same. It is no less fallacious for you to return a personal attack than it was for them to make one. I find it most effective to just ignore insults in a philosophical discussion. If you try to mention the other person's ad hominem and reply to it, you will often end up getting into an off-topic and personal discussion. If you feel the need to reply to an ad hominem, simply and politely tell the person that the ad hominem remark is irrelevant. Talking about the fact that an off-topic remark is off-topic will bring you further off-topic. Just let it go and focus on the topic.

Calling someone a hypocrite is almost always an ad hominem fallcy. In fact, it is specifically referred to as an ad hominem tu quoque. It is fallacious. For example, if Mark claims that smoking cigarettes is wrong, and Mary tries to rebut it by accusing Mark of smoking cigarettes, Mary has probably made an ad hominem tu quoque fallacy. The fact that Mark smokes cigarettes does not disprove the claim that smoking cigarettes is wrong.

Also, calling the person who makes an argument biased is almost always an ad hominem fallacy. It is specifically referred to as an ad hominem circumstantial argument. Pointing out that someone has a reason to want a conclusion to be true is not a valid rebuttal to their argument.

Most importantly, you want to avoid making irrelevant insults. Do not call names. If you do, you are committing a fallacy, and you have greatly hindered the ability for the discussion to remain productive. Remember, the point of philosophical discussion is to have productive and constructive discussions about philosophical topics; it is not to have name-calling contests and insult each others' personal qualities.

What do you think? How do you stop yourself from making ad hominem arguments and personal attacks?"

 

http://onlinephiloso...topic.php?t=398

 

 

ad hominem in court is unfortunately allowed:

 

 

lecture follows on why ad hominem is wrong in philosophy

 

 

We are not lawyers &, not politicians, but we are philosophers, and the rules of argument are more rigorous. Science also attempts this, although fails in many cases where someone's status may elevate their likely to be published or not published.

 

However, doing my own stuff on infinity & dimension maths maybe I've gone further than you have available in your studies, and you use the word 'seem'.

 

But it's as well to avoid any glaring fallacies like ad hoiminems and straw men or we wont discover conclusions that aren't initially obvious.

 

Infinity is not conjecture. It has been proove to exist by Georg Cantor.

He also suggested orders of infinities.

 

One can calculate infinties usng metaphore (symbols)

 

However if you wish to have a debate where both of us are allowed ad hominem,  count me in!

Edited by the hanged man, 18 September 2015 - 11:02 AM.

[platypus]

It is not "ad hominem" to point out that you don't seem to understand much about mathematics, computing, physics or engineering. I'm trying to suggest more education for you in a friendly manner.

[platypus]

Similarly, it is not "ad hominem" for you to point out that I don't know much about Egyptology, linguistics or biochemistry. You would be simply stating a fact. 

[Julia36]

 

some great levctures on line in philosophy.

 

I take ur point that my views on infinity and dimenion maths may be new so I need to explain trhem. I found them simple and apparant so didn't bother.

 

Infinity maths just deals with orders of infinities one infinity two infinities etc. Aleph (ℵ) is used to notatte them

 

ℵ1 ℵ2  ℵ3  ℵ4  ℵ5  ℵ/\nth

 

it is that simple and  infinity is a number (many people refute this, so it deponds if youw ant to use it as a number or not. There is NO problem multiplying infinity with other numbers)

 

Re: Dimensions...just look @ it simply.

 

1 d 2 d 3 d 4 d 5 d   etc through to aleph orders (infinities of dimensions.

 

The laws that are inevitably generated with each new dimension (including negative dimension!)

are inescapable and absolutely follow as you add anither dimension.

 

There is nothin to create or discover if you do the maths right (without error) the laws or potentails, just unfold as calculation unfolds.

 

This is ideally suited to computers, which is computing ie calculation...yoyu'll reacll one of the early computers were called calculators and most offices had one.

 

 

Then computers

 

 

then bigger computers where technology is stuck

 

 

until quantum comuters are predicted to arrive by/during 2022

[Julia36]

The curious thing here is that A.I. maths hasn't arrived. I calculate- an argument to the future- based on trend,s on published papers, on patents granted, on convergent technology, on numbers of students studying weak A.I., and on a series of broadcast logical assumptions eg A.I. must lead to AGI must lead to Superintelligence,

that a Singularity will hit during 2022.

 

By A.I. maths I mean sentient computers doing discovery and 'creative' stuff including BIG numbers and new ways of calculation deflation and symbolics.

 

Few doubt they are coming.

 

High level language architecture A.I. is my field so AHCHOOOOO sorry I'm down with flu

 

 

it's not easy majoring in hypochondria

 

My point is we aren't going to stick with basic number theory but move to stuff presently too hard for us to get our brains round until we modify them.

 

The modification will come at speeds resytricted solely by what is possible for us & our machines, and their offspring ad infinitum, in the infinite cosmos.

 

Infinity and dimensiosn are just earlyish things we can do in maths.

Edited by the hanged man, 18 September 2015 - 11:44 AM.

[Julia36]

Similarly, it is not "ad hominem" for you to point out that I don't know much about Egyptology, linguistics or biochemistry. You would be simply stating a fact. 

 

O yes it is. What or who one is or what strengths or weakness one has is irrelevant to the argument.

 

As Einstein said.

 

Tractatus Logico-Philosphicus mentions no one in it.

 

 

If I cite Einstein the argument is weighted for or against..for by those who are fiond of him, against for those who know he was a flat-footed jewish retard who failed his doctorate, was dismissed for incompetance from his teaching post, stole his ideas at the patent office, was complained about as being ignornat by princieton stuidents and refused to debate his ideas on film in case he was exposed as the leader of a jewish gang who worked together to steal other scientsists work collating and refining it as the product of their ring leader, Albert.

 

So E=MC/\2 is unlikely to be right.

 

Or the opposite: Einstein was a superhuman intellect and you can see this by reading his work, and the fact he didn't wear socks is proof.

You CANT cite learned authority, nor refute an argument by 'He's a tosser'

 

Do you understand that?

 

The rule is to consider how you would program a computer..what facts would you enter?

NOT the fact the Hnaged man is ignorant or a nobel prize winner, but only the argument.

I am far from immune to ad hominem myself:)

 

No it doesn't have to be negative. Positive ad hominem is just as bad in philsophical debate.

We are decended from story tellers.

 

 

 

and our efforts to become computers is hampered by our heavy human programmes.

 

Edited by the hanged man, 18 September 2015 - 12:07 PM.

[Julia36]

It is easy to come up with computational questions that cannot be computed in this universe in a reasonable time because this universe is so small (that the required computer does not fit in it). Do you think that every well-posed question has an answer that can be found?

 

No, because the question would necessarily contain the answer. However if you tack on more and more limitations you are tail chasing

eg "in a reasonable time???"

haha

 

Dodgeson's playing with Schopenhauer;s 38

(fallacies)

 

 

 

>>>>Do you think that every well-posed question has an answer that can be found?<<<

 

yes, necessarily. No limits. Your question is a version of

 

Can God create a stone so big he cant pick it up?

 

 

I refer you to the important philosophical maxim

"There's no such word as cant!"

 

There are many things to consider in HOW to look at a question, inlcuding

how you order facts. A hierarchy is not always possible, and an order not often apparent.

 

So a good starting point is to restrict words allowed for argument, and have anything disallowed not in the current book The Concise Oxford English Dictionary.

 

But essentially argument is a chess game where the rules are agreed by both players.

 

Of course I agree I could do with more particular knowledge, but ad hominem is not argument.

 

So could you..nor is that.

 

How does it advance us to say we are ignorant in the vast sea of unexplored facts?

We must proceed and navigate by the unexplored stars.

 

I am aware of the trap of admitting an answer is necessarily contained in the question.However i think it must be correct to assert that or the question is not well formulated, and one does well to escape the Doctrine of the Tyranny of Language

by applying the biggest knowledge base of wisdom ie common sense.

 

That is defined as the greatest number of general axioms weighed in the correct balance.

 

What that balance is has to b decided by the subject..an individual, a group, a species, a form,

and the direction of logic to do with it's use to the existence and goal objects of the subject eg of Man.

 

Much of Western culture is based on executed men. Socrates and Jesus.

They are both convicted criminals and would not be allowed into decent society eg they could not be admitted to Freemasons, and Socrates would be on a paedophile register.

 

So what?

 

How does this invalidate the higher argument of philosophy where everyone is involved and only Truth is moderator, and therefore always rules correctly?

 

 

It is not true that religious fanatics are new or that their argument extreme..assassination is a finality for the deceased.

Quantum Archaeology shows people will be resurrected by science and the argument may then continue.

If Quantum Suffering (this forum) is correct the past is not only retrievable but suffering has not necessarily happened, and there is no final history.

 

What is emerging, esp in Transhumanism is a return to values eg human beings and sentient forms are better than other things.

 

No science is possible without determinism, and our aim in simple logic is to deduce from Cause to Effect from Effect to Cause, and

from Proposition to Conclusion forwards and backwards, then cross-reference conclusions for veracity which Z  is  useful for because it is necessarily error free.

 

We seek counter-intuitive conclusions found by

 

1. Doing chains of valid logic

 

2. Gathering propositions to relate.

 

One cannot do that in randomness, and whilst probability is a higher perspective view of events, the devil's in the detail, which must fall to the scientific method.

 

Philosophy is the only topic I know where freedom of expression is absolute.

 

Fine, but once we admit fallacies we lose advances. We should omit fallacies and omit errors.

 

WE are limited by reality (the most axioms that can be said about a thing).

 

 

but science is a method, not our collective wisdom. Where it is in conflict we must return to philosophers to resolve it.

 

Philosophers must constantly use common sense.

Edited by the hanged man, 18 September 2015 - 02:17 PM.

[platypus]

It is very easy to construct problems where even the list of possible answers would not fit in this universe (not enough fundamental particles available for storing the answer). Therefore there are problems that cannot be solved, or tasks that cannot be completed in this universe.

[Julia36]

It is very easy to construct problems where even the list of possible answers would not fit in this universe (not enough fundamental particles available for storing the answer). Therefore there are problems that cannot be solved, or tasks that cannot be completed in this universe.

 

No, that is sophism and a problem in itself.

 

Suggest you look at Newtonian 'fluctions.'

 

 

We were talking about questions though you are trying to move it to problems.

 

What is the nature of the good question?

 

>>>>not enough fundamental particles available for storing the answer<<<<<

 

how many grains of sand are there on the average beach?

 

Assume the universe is finite/

Edited by the hanged man, 18 September 2015 - 06:01 PM.

[platypus]

I do not understand what you are trying to say, can you be clear please? Grains of snad and particles in the universe quickly run out when doing serious computation...

[Multivitz]

The Quantum approach is to understand space /matter, they have been on the wrong road in it's interpretation. imo
Space don't bend. Who has the right to determine what happens next?
When we are allowed to say 'charged pair', when it makes perfect sense, instead of buying in to ridged ideas, maybe then Ai could imporve. It's all a bit psychopathic, either way you look at it. The idiot authorities can't get physics right let alone account for fluctuations.
I hope that the long number in this thread is divisible. For correct wave calculations, the number has to represent harmonics, something an indivisible number can not represent. Decay should not come from a dimensional number, radio waves don't decay. Just another interesting fact.

Edited by Multivitz, 06 January 2016 - 10:29 PM.

[N.T.M.]

Just something to put out there. I'm not well versed in quantum theory beyond that which applies to university-level chemistry courses, but I recall Dr. Krauss saying that determinism does not, in fact, conflict with quantum theory. That seems counterintuitive to me, but I'm not a physicist. 

[Multivitz]

When did he say that? I'm sure the maths could solve the idea, but I wouldn't want to suggest someone waste their time getting muddled up, only to find someone elses idea works better with the main Quantum ethos. Professor Stephen Crothers would have a few things to say on the subject.

[Multivitz]

Z=potential, this potential is omnipresent and can effect the past vaguely for some observers, but it is just a potential and moves to maintain a balance in an observed system. It's the tools that make it noticeable, and the interpretations, that make predictions tricky. Symbolics is the way ahead, but it must include contextual force and respect disparity. Disparity is something statistics alone tries to solve, not a good way. For those reasons alone, Ai should be left to the laundry washing machines of this world.

Edited by Multivitz, 13 January 2016 - 09:30 PM.

[Multivitz]

Gravity is electomagnetic, we are seeing it is in many ways these days. How can a system of understanding body movements be quantified if the bodies electrical charge can fluctuate at any time and with potentials that no one has any ideas about measuring it. Plasma physics might.
Someone had the ideal that you could use light for rough mass measurement, sorry but that's not reliable. When an orbiting body changes charge, its kinetic potential alters to, thus making marked orbital variances. Basic stuff.

[johnross47]

Just something to put out there. I'm not well versed in quantum theory beyond that which applies to university-level chemistry courses, but I recall Dr. Krauss saying that determinism does not, in fact, conflict with quantum theory. That seems counterintuitive to me, but I'm not a physicist. 

 

It might be connected to the fact that determinism and randomness are not opposites, which makes the last several pages largely beside the point. Equally, quantum randomness does not confer free will.

[platypus]

I do not understand why some people think that "true randomness" would be an abomination. 

[Danail Bulgaria]

I noticed, that the hanged man hasn't been posting from september 2015.

 

I hope he is fine.

 

He has a lot of knowledge, that he may give.

[johnross47]

I do not understand why some people think that "true randomness" would be an abomination. 

 

I can't imagine how any natural phenomenon could be seen as an abomination; it's natural; it just is. Existence is not a moral issue.

[N.T.M.]

 

Just something to put out there. I'm not well versed in quantum theory beyond that which applies to university-level chemistry courses, but I recall Dr. Krauss saying that determinism does not, in fact, conflict with quantum theory. That seems counterintuitive to me, but I'm not a physicist. 

 

It might be connected to the fact that determinism and randomness are not opposites, which makes the last several pages largely beside the point. Equally, quantum randomness does not confer free will.

 

 

Absolutely true (regarding free will). To argue that it does would be a non sequitur. Although several possible antecedents may exist ("randomness"), each is associated with a deterministic path. 

[johnross47]

I think there is a possibility that, "free will," is an outdated term which we would be better off replacing with another term to denote actions done without outside constraints, in the human behaviour sense; actions which an honest actor would own.