25 replies to this topic

[TheFountain]

So, recently on Joe rogans experience podcast Dr. Ronda Patrick appeared. And Joe explained that he had been doing cold water immersion to benefit his post work out regimen to which he appealed to Dr. Ronda for more info on the why's and the wherefore. 

 

Dr. Ronda eloquently stated that Norepinephrine production is increased by cold immersion (according to a mouse study) and that the subsequent benefits are definite energy increase, clarity of mind, and overall feeling of well being. 

 

Joe, during this podcast confirmed these 'effects' as far as he could perceive them from his cryo-therapy sessions in sub 100 degree cold immersion for seconds at a time. Apparently, the stressors that cold immersion brings from the aforementioned therapy are followed immediately by synaptic build up and subsequent norepinephrine production (also confirmed by multiple mouse and a couple observational human studies related to sports). 

 

The good Dr. then went on to include that she wasn't sure about the exogenous supplementation of Norepinephrine since it is considered a re-uptake inhibitor and can stunt the bodies endogenous production. 

 

The conversation was quite intriguing and brings the following considerations into play.

 

What are the absolute best ways of increasing endogenous Norepinephrine production and to what, or any degree, is it safe? Is there an upper limit? Etc. 

 

I know exercise helps, I know healthy eating helps, and I know cold immersion definitely helps, but for those who do not have access to cold immersion facilities, what are the best ways, and what of supplementation? Are there ways of supplementing without damaging the endogenous production of the protein? 

 

 

[Junk Master]

Great thread.  I've seen Tim Ferris use homemade 1/3 rubbing alcohol and 1/3 water ziplock bags to approximate cold therapy, but I'd really like a workable, viable, home solution.  One not requiring a Cryosauna, or cutting a hole in a frozen lake!

 

I really think this is the next frontier, along with a personally tailored peptide regime, in athletic performance.

[TheFountain]

 I've seen Tim Ferris use homemade 1/3 rubbing alcohol and 1/3 water ziplock bags to approximate cold therapy

Can you explain this more?

[Junk Master]

Here's a little rehash of Ferris explaining.  For home use he detailed (on his blog) an economical way to make reusable ice packs.  You fill a ziplock with 1/3 rubbing alcohol and the rest distilled water.  Then you add colored dye so no one drinks it!  Then you enclose the ziplock in another (or even two more), and keep them in the freezer.

 

He big on placing the bags on the back of your neck, and also working on submerging your face in freezing water, building up the tolerable length of time.

 

I'm really starting to believe in this stuff.

 

 

 

[resveratrol_guy]

Unfortunately, "hypothermia induces tau hyperphosphorylation in vitro and in vivo". In other words: get cold, accelerate Alzheimer's. I understand that doesn't make much sense, because after all, cold weather is a stressor which we've evolved to deal with, just like heat shock and the related heat shock proteins. And I realize that I'm oversimplifying this, and there's a continuum of hormetic responses between the survivable extremes of temperature. Suffice to say, have a look at the study.

 

"Tau phosphorylation is exquisitely sensitive to temperature, increasing by 80% for each degree below 37C, due to exponential decrease in PP2A activity during direct hypothermia, or anesthesia-induced hypothermia". I think I'm gonna throw on a sweater... seriously, I wonder if this is part of the rough correlation between latitude and Alzheimer's rates.

 

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 27 July 2015 - 08:27 PM.

[TheFountain]

Now wait a second, I thought Norepinephrine production decreased or stunted the formation of beta-amyloid plaque!

[TheFountain]

And if that's so, and short bursts of extreme cold does cause greater norepinephrine production, that would kill the idea of cold exposure causing Alzheimers. 

[Junk Master]

I don't think these guys care about any potential Alzheimer's risk.  These are young bodybuilder/guinea pigs who are into manipulating their performance/lifestyle.  A few are into making a buck too.

[Major Legend]

Unfortunately, "hypothermia induces tau hyperphosphorylation in vitro and in vivo". In other words: get cold, accelerate Alzheimer's. I understand that doesn't make much sense, because after all, cold weather is a stressor which we've evolved to deal with, just like heat shock and the related heat shock proteins. And I realize that I'm oversimplifying this, and there's a continuum of hormetic responses between the survivable extremes of temperature. Suffice to say, have a look at the study.

 

"Tau phosphorylation is exquisitely sensitive to temperature, increasing by 80% for each degree below 37C, due to exponential decrease in PP2A activity during direct hypothermia, or anesthesia-induced hypothermia". I think I'm gonna throw on a sweater... seriously, I wonder if this is part of the rough correlation between latitude and Alzheimer's rates.

 

I'm not surprised there would be side effects to heat or cold shocks.

 

Well we probably didn't evolve to suddenly go into freeze and come back out to return to heat instantly, our homeostasis probably allows some degree of change over a period of time, in the natural environment sudden 180 degree changes of weather is not normal. So I don't support cold showers, and cryo therapy, obviously it works because its essentially "shocking" your system to reboot, like a blood flush, there is also a large region of placebo effects as well, since most people doing it are sport heads. Also we know that sudden mild changes in cellular temperature can cause damage (methamphetamine).

 

Also yeah Norepinephrine is pretty essential for focus and motivation, beyond a certain dose it causes anxiety. Olive Leaf Extract lowers norepinephrine, and in my experience the reduction in anxiety also creates an equal reduction in motivation as well. The level of useful norepinephrine increase is within the region of common stimulants and mild exercise, so I don't think its hard to achieve, its not troublesome like dopamine is.

[TheFountain]

I don't think these guys care about any potential Alzheimer's risk.  These are young bodybuilder/guinea pigs who are into manipulating their performance/lifestyle.  A few are into making a buck too.

Not sure where you draw these assumptions. Joe Rogan is 47 years old. That's 17 years older than I currently am. I doubt he would do it if there was an associative Alzheimers risk. 

Or at least a quantifiable risk!

[Duchykins]

Is this how we're making decisions about our health and lifestyles now?  We hear something from celebrities (Patrick qualifies as a celebrity in fitness nut circles) who are going to be profiting from the new fad, and we already bought it without seeing scientific studies on it?

 

I get that she is a badass PhD and I respect that.  That's not the point.  She is not infallible though, all of us are vulnerable to the gamut of cognitive biases, which is what makes the scientific method so important.

 

The problem is appealing to the public before appealing to your scientific peers.  

 

That is always a red flag, from Intelligent Design creationism all the way to lifestyle fads.

[TheFountain]

 

The problem is appealing to the public before appealing to your scientific peers.  

 

 

She cited multiple studies. 

[Junk Master]

I'm not sure I understand your point about Joe Rogan.  He's a well known advocate for both marijuana, and has admitted to extensive anabolic steroid, and growth hormone use.  My point is these "body hackers" are not as interested in longevity as they are quality of life.  

 

If you were to ask Joe Rogan if he could be ripped, strong, virile, and smoke his weed until say 75...then contract Alzheimer's, I'm sure he'd take that deal...as would many of us.  Of course, he'd probably say that by then Alzheimer's research might have advanced, so he could have his cake and eat it too.

[Duchykins]

She cited multiple studies. 

 

 

 

 

You don't know how science works.

 

Anybody can cite studies.  That doesn't mean the studies were interpreted correctly, or that the studies themselves were any good.  

 

Due to the proliferation of junk journals these days, predatory journals, especially in the biomedical fields, the papers should be seen directly, their authors checked, their journals checked, and their publishers checked.  Open-access journals especially because while there are some very reputable and properly strict open-access journals out there, they are nearly outnumbered by bullshit online journals that have no quality control and virtually no review process to speak of.

 

So where are these studies?

[Duchykins]

I'm not sure I understand your point about Joe Rogan.  He's a well known advocate for both marijuana, and has admitted to extensive anabolic steroid, and growth hormone use.  My point is these "body hackers" are not as interested in longevity as they are quality of life.  

 

If you were to ask Joe Rogan if he could be ripped, strong, virile, and smoke his weed until say 75...then contract Alzheimer's, I'm sure he'd take that deal...as would many of us.  Of course, he'd probably say that by then Alzheimer's research might have advanced, so he could have his cake and eat it too.

 

I agree.  This is another reason we can't just take their word for it; we don't know their motivations are, or what their personal values are, or what cognitive biases are in play (at least a few are always in play with any of us simply because we are not really computers).  We have to see what evidence there is for it and what evidence there is against it.  

[Junk Master]

Amen to that.

[TheFountain]

 

She cited multiple studies. 

 

 

 

 

You don't know how science works.

 

NEEDS REFERENCES!

[Duchykins]

NEEDS REFERENCES!

 

 

 

 

 

 

You mean to say that my request to see references needs references?

 

What's mature about that, exactly?

[ceridwen]

Since I've been ill I've really tried to keep warm but it looks like we're going to have an early autumn this year

[TheFountain]

 

NEEDS REFERENCES!

 

 

 

 

 

 

You mean to say that my request to see references needs references?

 

What's mature about that, exactly?

 

Look at the quote I spoke about first. 

[APBT]

Extreme heat - think saunas - are a viable resource for increasing norepinephrine.  

[Junk Master]

Saunas also increase insulin sensitivity.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19203842

[TheFountain]

Okay from what I derived in my memory of the conversation dnd the research I read, The Alzheimers/cold risk is time based. In other words, short bursts of of extreme cold immersion will help build synaptic connections. I think the correlation of cold with Alzheimers was in long term arctic cold conditions. Nothing to do with short bursts of sub-100 degree immersion. 

[ViolentNomad]

 

 

She cited multiple studies. 

 

 

 

 

You don't know how science works.

 

NEEDS REFERENCES!

 

 

Well here is a report she wrote on the topic:

Attached Files

•  cold-stress.pdf   651.54KB   5 downloads

Edited by ViolentNomad, 22 October 2016 - 02:04 AM.

[logicmuffin]

Quick aside: norepineprine also directly regulates neurogenesis (http://www.nature.co...l/1395801a.html).

[ViolentNomad]

Along similar lines: https://www.youtube....h?v=aHOlM-wlNjM

Edited by ViolentNomad, 23 October 2016 - 12:55 AM.