48 replies to this topic

[david ellis]

DON'T FEED TROLLS

[The Brain]

He's a troll himself

[niner]

I have just discovered the original thread where these allegedly fraudulent practices by True Life Research were first discussed. 
 
The first thing I have to say after reading it is wow, what bizarre language Forty Six & 2 uses! He writes many paragraphs, but says nothing! He hides behind his highfalutin (but often grammatically incorrect) words, never really addressing any questions, or explaining any issues. If I were judging True Life Research by the way he communicates, I would take a dim view of the company. Aren't there any other representatives of TLR that could come to this forum, and talk in a more down-to-Earth, straightforward manner? Perhaps there are people at TLR who can express themselves in normal language, that could present the company, and these issues, in a better light.
 
Niner, I was also reading your discussion with Ceretropic in that thread (in these posts: #133,  #135,  #167,  #179), about the analytical methods used, and whether even if the samples tested were mostly taurine, some other active ingredients might still be present that do not appear in the analysis results. On this issue, there were two opposing statements made:

 

Ceretropic said: I discussed the results with the lab tech that ran them, and asked if there could be other things in the sample, with Taurine as a filler. He said that given the lack of other peaks, there was nothing else significantly structurally different in the sample.

 

Niner said: It would be easy for a low concentration active ingredient to be lost in the noise of the IR spectrum.

 

So these are opposing views. I don't really have the expertise to comment on this (my education was in physics, not chemistry), but are you still asserting that a low concentration active ingredient(s) could be present in the sample, but not show up in the analysis results?

 
It's not clear to me why nobody has taken up on Ceretropic's offer (in this post) to pay for lab testing of TLR's products, at any lab chosen. Niner, you seem to have considerable expertise in chemical testing methods: aren't you tempted to take up Ceretropic's offer?

 

I PM'd Forty Six & 2 and checked with him on the question of taurine.  He said yes, there is taurine present in the mixtures.  He also pointed out that he had said so a long time ago in the forum, but between the length of the thread and the overwhelming verbiage, that would be easy to miss.  Ceretropic's tech must have been assuming that there would be a large amount of non-taurine material in the sample.  If the active is present at a low concentration, it would certainly be possible to miss it under the taurine curve.  IR absorption is directly proportional to the concentration of the analyte, and IR is not known as a great quantitative tool at any rate.

 

I've already spent a lot more time than I'd like on Ceretropic's claims.  If he's still willing to pay for the analysis, and someone else wants to do the legwork, I could suggest an analytical method, and wouldn't mind looking over the results.

[The Brain]

I thought he repeatedly refused to comment on the taurine claims which is what kept the thread going.....or is that my failing memory ???

[niner]

I thought he repeatedly refused to comment on the taurine claims which is what kept the thread going.....or is that my failing memory ???

 

I just did a search of the forum for "taurine" from user "Forty Six & 2" and found this post from March 2015 where he does in fact say that taurine is used as a filler.  My recollection is that at first he felt like defending against Ceretropic's claims gave them more weight than they deserved, or something like that.  It would have been a lot better to be as transparent as possible, as early as possible.

[Hip]

One thing to bear in mind when considering Forty Six & 2's claim that taurine is used as a filler in the proprietary products capsules, but that there are also small quantities of the active ingredient in the capsules as well: this claim implies that the secret active ingredient is a highly potent compound on a weight basis. In other words, it implies that the active ingredient is potent at just a few milligrams, like say the nootropic noopept (effective dose is around 20 mg), rather than like say piracetam (effective dose is around 1000 mg). 

 

Now this might be true in some cases: some of these proprietary products could contain active ingredients that are potent at just a few milligrams, and so in these cases, you would expect most of the capsule to be taurine, if taurine was indeed used as a filler.

 

However, you would also expect that some of the secret active ingredients in these proprietary products are going to be more like piracetam in their potency, ie, their dose would be around 1000 mg, and thus you would have to have the whole capsule filled with the active ingredient in order to get an effective dose. So in these cases, there would be no need for a taurine filler.

 

So the question here is: are there some proprietary products in TLR's range that don't contain any taurine filler, but just contain pure secret active ingredient? Because by the law of averages, you would expect there to be at least some products like this, with no taurine filler. If not, if they all contained a taurine filler, it would suggest that these proprietary products are a scam.

Edited by Hip, 11 August 2015 - 05:26 AM.

[PWAIN]

Quite a few are effective at microgram and even nanogram dosages. A lot of new research is around signaling compounds that are found in really tiny amounts in the body. It is quite possible that that is where they are focusing their efforts.

Things like piracetam would hardly be revolutionary and would be a good reason to avoid them if that is their active ingredient.

Given the very positive outcomes some people are reporting, my guess is that they are using some cutting edge compounds.

One thing to bear in mind when considering Forty Six & 2's claim that taurine is used as a filler in the proprietary products capsules, but that there are also small quantities of the active ingredient in the capsules as well: this claim implies that the secret active ingredient is a highly potent compound on a weight basis. In other words, it implies that the active ingredient is potent at just a few milligrams, like say the nootropic noopept (effective dose is around 20 mg), rather than like say piracetam (effective dose is around 1000 mg).

Now this might be true in some cases: some of these proprietary products could contain active ingredients that are potent at just a few milligrams, and so in these cases, you would expect most of the capsule to be taurine, if taurine was indeed used as a filler.

However, you would also expect that some of the secret active ingredients in these proprietary products are going to be more like piracetam in their potency, ie, their dose would be around 1000 mg, and thus you would have to have the whole capsule filled with the active ingredient in order to get an effective dose. So in these cases, there would be no need for a taurine filler.

So the question here is: are there some proprietary products in TLR's range that don't contain any taurine filler, but just contain pure secret active ingredient? Because by the law of averages, you would expect there to be at least some products like this, with no taurine filler. If not, if they all contained a taurine filler, it would suggest that these proprietary products are a scam.

Edited by PWAIN, 11 August 2015 - 06:27 AM.

[Hip]

Quite a few are effective at microgram and even nanogram dosages. A lot of new research is around signaling compounds that are found in really tiny amounts in the body. It is quite possible that that is where they are focusing their efforts.

Things like piracetam would hardly be revolutionary and would be a good reason to avoid them if that is their active ingredient.

Given the very positive outcomes some people are reporting, my guess is that they are using some cutting edge compounds.

 

It's possible I guess, but generally speaking, if you are a chemist looking to create new biologically active compounds, you wouldn't really be concerned about what dose level (g, mg, μg, ng) is required to get the effect; rather as a chemist, you would just be looking at what effects you can achieve.  

 

If you take something like MDMA (ecstasy), a strong dose of that is in 200 mg range, whereas for LSD a strong dose in the 200 μg range, ie, one thousand times smaller. However, both are potent psychedelics. A compound's potency by weight does not really have any bearing on the final efficacy of the drug, and is not really something you would take in to consideration in drug design.

 

 

 

The trouble I see with these positive outcomes reported by people trying True Life Research's proprietary compounds is that some people passionately worship TLR as company, something I have never come across before. The strength of this passion is almost a like religious belief. To quote an earlier post on this thread: "[True Life Research are] a company of Love and Truth and the owner has done nothing but been kind and Loving to me". 

 

I guess a lot of people are deeply emotional affected by the "Truth = Beauty = Light = Love" sayings and charisma of Forty Six & Two. So this could create the ideal conditions for a strong placebo effect. Have there been any reports of positive outcomes from people who have scientific minds and are very skeptical about these proprietary products?

 

Again, let me reiterate, it could well be that these proprietary products do indeed contain active compounds, and that TLR are indeed a collective of highly innovative researchers. All I am doing here is discussing the issues, to try to clarify the situation.  

[niner]

 

Quite a few are effective at microgram and even nanogram dosages. A lot of new research is around signaling compounds that are found in really tiny amounts in the body. It is quite possible that that is where they are focusing their efforts.

Things like piracetam would hardly be revolutionary and would be a good reason to avoid them if that is their active ingredient.

Given the very positive outcomes some people are reporting, my guess is that they are using some cutting edge compounds.

 
It's possible I guess, but generally speaking, if you are a chemist looking to create new biologically active compounds, you wouldn't really be concerned about what dose level (g, mg, μg, ng) is required to get the effect; rather as a chemist, you would just be looking at what effects you can achieve.  
 
If you take something like MDMA (ecstasy), a strong dose of that is in 200 mg range, whereas for LSD a strong dose in the 200 μg range, ie, one thousand times smaller. However, both are potent psychedelics. A compound's potency by weight does not really have any bearing on the final efficacy of the drug, and is not really something you would take in to consideration in drug design.

 

 

It may not have an effect on efficacy, but it has a big effect on toxicity potential.  The more of a substance you consume, the higher the likelihood that an off-target effect will emerge.  The goal in the pharmaceutical industry is to maximize the activity at the receptor of interest so that doses can be as low as possible.  This is definitely a design criterion.

 

The trouble I see with these positive outcomes reported by people trying True Life Research's proprietary compounds is that some people passionately worship TLR as company, something I have never come across before. The strength of this passion is almost a like religious belief. To quote an earlier post on this thread: "[True Life Research are] a company of Love and Truth and the owner has done nothing but been kind and Loving to me". 
 
I guess a lot of people are deeply emotional affected by the "Truth = Beauty = Light = Love" sayings and charisma of Forty Six & Two. So this could create the ideal conditions for a strong placebo effect. Have there been any reports of positive outcomes from people who have scientific minds and are very skeptical about these proprietary products?
 
Again, let me reiterate, it could well be that these proprietary products do indeed contain active compounds, and that TLR are indeed a collective of highly innovative researchers. All I am doing here is discussing the issues, to try to clarify the situation.

I've read a number of cool, level-headed reports that TLR's proprietary mixtures were effective.  Colby did sound emotional above, but I think he was reacting to your criticism more than anything else.  When you find a substance that helps you, and no one else has been able to provide it, it does tend to make you protective of the provider. 

 

I have to wonder what your interest in TLR really is.  You dredged up an old claim that has no scientific merit, and even after detailed explanation, you're still hammering on this.  Why are you so swayed by a phony chemist who is a competitor of TLR, (you do see the conflict of interest there, don't you?) but you don't want to believe a disinterested person (me) who is a real chemist?  (Pharmaceutical Chemistry PhD, Analytical experience, papers, patents, blah blah blah...)

[The Brain]

Their products are starting to sound like homeopathy now.......


And Niner, your lanuage and comments allude to more than disinterest, pretty sure you were already backing TLR even before you seen Ceretropic's methodology

[Metagene]

I thought he repeatedly refused to comment on the taurine claims which is what kept the thread going.....or is that my failing memory ???

I just did a search of the forum for "taurine" from user "Forty Six & 2" and found this post from March 2015 where he does in fact say that taurine is used as a filler. My recollection is that at first he felt like defending against Ceretropic's claims gave them more weight than they deserved, or something like that. It would have been a lot better to be as transparent as possible, as early as possible.

Ding ding ding!

I am more than happy to admit I was wrong about TeamTLR. Regardless of how Forty Six & 2 felt about Ceretropic's claims, perceptions matter.

[Hip]

I have to wonder what your interest in TLR really is.  You dredged up an old claim that has no scientific merit, and even after detailed explanation, you're still hammering on this.  Why are you so swayed by a phony chemist who is a competitor of TLR, (you do see the conflict of interest there, don't you?) but you don't want to believe a disinterested person (me) who is a real chemist?  (Pharmaceutical Chemistry PhD, Analytical experience, papers, patents, blah blah blah...)

 

 

I have taken your views on this subject into account, Niner, especially given your strong chemistry background and experience. I now think these TLR proprietary products are probably legitimate. 

 

I am generally interested in the subject of trustworthiness of sources. On the Phoenix Rising ME/CFS forum where I often hang out, people discuss and share their experiences of online prescription-free pharmacies (and to a lesser extent, nootropic suppliers and body-building hormone and peptide suppliers). People want to find pharmacies that are trustworthy and reliable, that will supply real rather than fake drugs, and that will not use their credit card details for fraudulent purposes (such CC fraud in unfortunately quite common in some of the lower end prescription-free pharmacies).

 

If you look at my post here on the Phoenix Rising forum, I give some general ideas about how to check the trustworthiness and reliability of an online prescription-free pharmacy.

 

 

 

 

This Google search I think picks up all the proprietary products on the TLE website. There are around 30 of them. I notice that they come in all sorts of different amounts, from 10 mg to 2 grams.

Edited by Hip, 12 August 2015 - 01:15 AM.

[niner]

Their products are starting to sound like homeopathy now.......

And Niner, your lanuage and comments allude to more than disinterest, pretty sure you were already backing TLR even before you seen Ceretropic's methodology

 

Homeopathy like Merck, Novartis, GSK...?  Compounds that are active in doses of 1-20 mg are not homeopathy. 

 

You go ahead and look through all the TLR threads and find me backing them prior to Ceretropic's bogus claims.  If someone used legitimate methodology and showed that a supplier was selling garbage, I would not be supporting that supplier.  I'd be helping to bring them down.  I just want to see a clean marketplace with multiple suppliers.  Why is no one running analyses on any other vendor's products?   It would be great if all the vendors out there were subject to analyses, as long as the analyses were done correctly. 

[Mind]

I back-up niner's comments. He has been rational in evaluating the TLR situation as far as I can tell.

[Danillo Lino]

I'm interested in buying Senolytix, Dasatinib(D) + Quercetin(Q) from Teamtlr, but reading some posts, their products seems to be made just taurine, was it true? should I avoid buying anything from them ?

[niner]

The claims that their stuff was just taurine were from a competitor, and are not true.  People seem to be happy with their products.

[normalizing]

any updates on the quality teamtlr brings, more taurine findings etc?

[DareDevil]

I'm interested in buying Senolytix, Dasatinib(D) + Quercetin(Q) from Teamtlr, but reading some posts, their products seems to be made just taurine, was it true? should I avoid buying anything from them ?

Hi Danillo,

 

I did just that and have tried TLR's D+Q for several weeks now.

Based on effects and side effects they're the real deal. 

You can read my feedback starting here:

 

http://www.longecity...e-5#entry802382

 

DareDevil

[Nelson]

I've pre-ordered the SCIO device so that the online drugs purchased can be tested for QC.  This is probably a good SOP with all mail order drugs and compounds not just TLR.  I must agree that TLR communications are very strange, but they politely follow-up on the emails and try very hard to be helpful.