16 replies to this topic

[Mr Serendipity]

http://www.emaxhealt...deficiency-risk

 

 

Some Antioxidants Increase Anemia, Iron Deficiency Risk

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By Deborah Mitchell G+

2010-08-24 05:09

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We often hear about the benefits of antioxidants, but a group of scientists are warning that some polyphenol antioxidants may increase the risk of iron deficiency and anemia. Iron deficiency is the most common nutritional deficiency in the world.

The downside of Polyphenol Antioxidants unveiled in a new study

Polyphenol antioxidants are a type of phytochemical (plant-based chemical) found in most legumes and fruits, as well as red wine, chocolate, green tea, olive oil, and vegetables such as broccoli, cabbage, onions, and parsley. More than 4,000 of these antioxidants have been identified and are believed to be instrumental in fighting oxidative stress in humans.

Previous studies have indicated that polyphenols offer or have the potential to provide many health benefits, such as fighting prostate cancer and leukemia, decreasing the risk of heart disease, improving bone health, and helping prevent glaucoma and other eye conditions. A new study, however, points to a possible downside to some polyphenol antioxidants.

In the new study, which was conducted at Penn State, nutritional scientists discovered that certain polyphenols reduce the amount of iron that the body can absorb. This effect can result in iron deficiency and anemia in high-risk individuals, such as pregnant women and young children.

The scientists, led by Okhee Han, assistant professor of nutritional sciences, evaluated the polyphenol antioxidants grape seed extract and epigallocatechin-3-gallate (EGCG), which is found in green tea. They found that these polyphenols interact with iron in such a way in the intestinal tract that the mineral cannot enter the bloodstream, where it is needed to transport oxygen throughout the body.

Han and her colleagues concluded that individuals who are at risk for iron deficiency have an even greater risk if they consume large amounts of EGCG or grape seed extract. Therefore, they warn people who are at risk for this nutritional deficiency “should be aware of what polyphenols they are consuming.” Both of these antioxidants, which are available as extracts, should be used with caution.

 

SOURCE: Penn State news release, August 23, 2010

 

 

I've been taking megadoses of GSE recently, and my energy levels are way down. So I looked for GSE and tiredness in Google, and couldn't really find anything to tell me the reason why I'm getting it. But I did find someone on the curezone forum was also getting tired from GSE, and said it was akin to anemia she had experienced before. So I Googled GSE and anemia, and this article popped up.

 

Also someone wrote a thread with the hypothesis that Green Tea might cause anemia here at longecity.org.

 

http://www.longecity...n-cause-anemia/

 

Btw I'm taking megadose GSE to help with inflammatory for peyronies disease. Works really well, but this tiredness, stiff muscles/back pain, and tingling is worrying to say the least, at least I've found a connection.

 

Does anyone think taking extra iron will help counter this?

[Mr Serendipity]

I forgot to mention I also get the giggles on megadose GSE.

 

The only thing I can think will cause this, is low iron, causes low oxygen to the brain, which might cause the giggles.

 

Anyway I bought some liquid iron supplements, 2 different brands. Taken both, lets see if I feel any different in a couple of hours.

[niner]

Manny, how much GSE are you taking?   If you wanted to quantify things, you could get a blood test to look at iron levels.

[Mr Serendipity]

I can't say, as one day I spent the whole day capping the powder myself.

 

This is the powder I used: http://www.myprotein...oductsuggestion

 

I just measured the weight of 1 of my capsules on a mini sensitive scale. It was 0.59g, or 590mg.

 

And I was taking 6 of these, on some days 12. So I was getting 3.54 - 7.08g. One day I even took 18, so 10.62g. These were spread throughout the day taking 6 at a time.

 

I've never had any symptoms until I started taking 6 at a time.

 

The symptoms were:

• Tiredness, lack of focus, and wanting to sleep more (very noticeable)
• Lower back pain (very noticeable)
• Stiff muscles
• Giggles
• Tingling in hands (neuropathy)

I only made the connection to anemia yesterday when I saw that curezone comment. Then I googled it and found that article. And then I googled those symptoms with anemia, and they match.

 

I think the worse thing at the moment is, my hands still feel affected by the neuropathy, and I'm worried I may have caused permanent damage.

 

For information wise, my megadosing regime has most likely been going on for 5 days, maybe more, but I forgot to enter it into my exel sheet. No longer than 10 days thats for sure. So this happened in a very short period of time. Before megadosing I was taking 1 of those GSE pills in my pillbox with my other supplements without any problems.

 

Actually, most of this megadosing was my pillbox (with 1 GSE in), and 6 extra, so I was taking around 7 a day on average.

 

I shouldn't be anemic either, as my pillbox has a b-complex in, and I now and then take sublingual B12 (the methyl one).

 

The only thing I don't take is extra iron, which I only took yesterday. It didn't effect me straight away, even after a nap, but this morning I feel more focused and less tired.

 

I would still like to take megadose of GSE as it helps my peyronies inflammatory. For example take iron with my main supplements in the morning, then 6 GSE before bed, because surely it can't interrupt iron uptake in the intestine then (as the doses are far apart from one another). But I'm not going to risk it, especially experiencing this neuropathy which hasn't gone away yet. I'm also wondering if it's disrupting uptake of iron in the intestines as the article said, because I felt it could be more blood based rather than intestine based, just because it affected me so fast. I thought severe iron deficiency would take months or longer, not days.

 

Last thing that should be significant in this case, is I have thalassemia b trait, which is from my dad's side (he's Indian).

 

Thalassemia b trait shouldn't really effect me at all, but I think it still can ever so slightly, here is a description:

 

Thalassemia Minor or Thalassemia Trait. In this condition, the lack of beta protein is not great enough to cause problems in the normal functioning of the hemoglobin. A person with this condition simply carries the genetic trait for thalassemia and will usually experience no health problems other than a possible mild anemia. As in mild alpha thalassemia, physicians often mistake the small red blood cells of the person with beta thalassemia minor as a sign of iron-deficiency anemia and incorrectly prescribe iron supplements.

 

Thalassemia Intermedia. In this condition the lack of beta protein in the hemoglobin is great enough to cause a moderately severe anemia and significant health problems, including bone deformities and enlargement of the spleen. However, there is a wide range in the clinical severity of this condition, and the borderline between thalassemia intermedia and the most severe form, thalassemia major, can be confusing. The deciding factor seems to be the amount of blood transfusions required by the patient. The more dependent the patient is on blood transfusions, the more likely he or she is to be classified as thalassemia major. Generally speaking, patients with thalassemia intermedia need blood transfusions to improve their quality of life, but not in order to survive.

 

Thalassemia Major or Cooley’s Anemia. This is the most severe form of beta thalassemia in which the complete lack of beta protein in the hemoglobin causes a life-threatening anemia that requires regular blood transfusions and extensive ongoing medical care. These extensive, lifelong blood transfusions lead to iron-overload which must be treated with chelation therapy to prevent early death from organ failure.

Edited by manny, 21 August 2015 - 04:49 AM.

[Mr Serendipity]

I feel better taking a teaspoon of the iron liquid in the morning with my other supplements.

 

But I better be careful, people with thalasemia minor are more likely to become iron overloaded.

 

 

I have thalassaemia minor. Should I be taking iron supplements?

 

A doctor may recommend to someone to take iron supplements when their iron levels are low. For people who have thalassaemia minor, it is very important that they take iron supplements under their doctor's supervision, ONLY when their iron levels are very low, as iron supplements do not correct thalassaemia minor and may possibly cause complications.

 

The part of the blood affected in thalassaemia conditions is a molecule called haemoglobin. Haemoglobin is found in the red blood cells and plays an important role in carrying oxygen around the body from the lungs to all the organs. The organs then use that oxygen as fuel to perform their functions.

 

When haemoglobin hasn't formed in normal amounts, a person often feels very tired. One cause of improper formation of haemoglobin is a lack of iron. Iron is one of 3 components of haemoglobin. When a person does not have enough iron in their body/diet, they are then unable to form normal amounts of haemoglobin. This means that there are not normal amounts of haemoglobin to carry oxygen (fuel) to their organs, and thus the function of each organ requires more effort. This causes the person to feel tired.

 

When lack of iron is the cause of improper haemoglobin formation, this can be corrected by taking iron supplements. However, for some people, taking iron supplements must be carefully monitored. These people include those with thalassaemia minor and thalassaemia major.

 

A person with thalassaemia minor lacks one of the 2 other components of haemoglobin. Haemoglobin is made of iron and two globin proteins called alpha (a) and beta (b). A person with thalassaemia minor does not produce normal amounts of the (b) globin. They do, however, produce enough (b) globin that there is enough haemoglobin formed for them to function without normally experiencing any symptoms.

 

Because some haemoglobin is not forming properly, in thalassaemia minor, there will be some unbound (a) globins and iron. This unbound (a) globin and iron will circulate freely in the person's bloodstream and not usually cause any problems. What is important is that a person with thalassaemia minor already has some free iron circulating in their bloodstream, and so taking iron supplements, unless they have had a blood test showing they are truly low in iron, will only increase the amount of free iron circulating in their bloodstream. If the amount of free iron is high, a serious complication called iron overload may result.

 

Iron overload is the accumulation of iron in the body's tissues. Tissue damage may result, causing complications including growth retardation, diabetes and heart failure. This is a very serious condition. For people with thalassaemia major, iron overload is prevented by taking medication under the skin (subcutaneously) over near daily 10 hour intervals. For those with thalassaemia minor, iron overload can be prevented by making sure they do not take iron supplements UNLESS they are low in iron and are under the supervision of their doctor.

If you have thalassaemia minor and are considering taking vitamin supplements, the B vitamins may be helpful. Again, we would advise that you discuss this with your doctor.

 

I'm going to see if I can get a blood test.

[blood]

 

So I was getting 3.54 - 7.08g. One day I even took 18, so 10.62g. These were spread throughout the day taking 6 at a time.

 

Those doses are extraordinarily high (you're at batshit crazy doses).

 

Clinical trials with GSE (in general/ not specifically for Peyronie's) seem to max out at ~500-1000 mg/day.

 

Are there not other supplements to explore (maybe a combo of supplest & drugs could give better results than mega-doses of a single supplement)?

 

What does your Doctor say?

Edited by blood, 26 August 2015 - 02:26 AM.

[Mr Serendipity]

Well I never knew there were GSE trials for peyronies. I just took it because I could feel it helped with the inflammatory I get with peyronies.

 

Atm I'm only taking 1 capsule, but not sure if that's effecting me slightly negatively or not, or whether it's the iron supplement I'm taking now (1 dose). I woke up with numbness in my right arm today.

 

I haven't gone to see my doctor yet. I don't regularly go to the doctor, I haven't been in 8 years. But I'll probably ring up today and book an appointment, I really need a blood test I think.

 

 

[blood]

Well I never knew there were GSE trials for peyronies.

 
Apologies, my language was ambiguous, I don't know if there are clinical trials of GSE for Peyronie's.

I haven't gone to see my doctor yet. I don't regularly go to the doctor, I haven't been in 8 years.

Shouldn't you ask the Doctor about your Peyronie's (in addition to your iron deficiency concerns)? Maybe there is an evidence-based treatment that could help you..?

[niner]

There's also the possibility that all that GSE might have caused some form of nerve damage.  You might want to quit GSE entirely for a while until you get the numerous symptoms sorted out.  How are you feeling overall, now that you're at a lower dose?  Are any of the symptoms resolving?

[gamesguru]

GTPs inhibit dopamine^[1] and serotonin^[2] reuptake.  I limit myself to 7 cups, and feel the effects with as little as two.  Presumably, dysregulation could occur with chronic megadoses.

[Mr Serendipity]

Hey guys.

 

Well I picked up my blood test today.

 

Basically in the UK, if you don't get a call back from the doctors, everything is alright with your tests, and it seems like they drop helping you find the problem with your symptoms unless you hassle them again. But my symptoms seem to be ok atm, so I just went in and asked for a copy of the bloodtest.

 

 

 

I thought she was testing my thyroid, that what she told me, but evidently not.

 

I guess the RCB is ok for someone with thalassemia.

 

Now the GFR is worrying, because my mother has PKD. And when the doctor asked me if my family had a history of illness, I only told her about my grandads diabetes and grandmothers alzheimers (on my fathers side). But I forgot to tell her about my mothers and grandmothers PKD (on my mum's side).

 

So I've given the surgery a ring, the doctor should call me tomorrow. I only wanted a quick chat whether the result should be a concern or not considering the PKD. I don't like all this booking appointments, waiting for calls, or not hearing anything from them (and dropping your case) if they see your blood tests are fine. But I guess that's to stop the doctors being overwhelmed by hypercondriacs.

 

I rarely use the doctors, last time was like 7 years ago, but it would have been good to have a 5 min chat over the phone about the results, and to ask that small question about the GFR, rather than dropping it and going silent. Ah well let's see if they contact me or not.

Edited by manny, 03 September 2015 - 02:42 PM.

[gamesguru]

I thought she was testing my thyroid, that what she told me, but evidently not.

Now the GFR is worrying, because my mother has PKD.

but it would have been good to have a 5 min chat over the phone about the results, and to ask that small question about the GFR, rather than dropping it and going silent. Ah well let's see if they contact me or not.

You're asking about kidney health in the brain forum.

I mean we're brainiacs, but we don't know everything.

Personally, I'd ask this question in a free doctor forum, they usually reply within 24-48 hrs.  And I bet he says it's worrying, and to get further testing.

untimely forgetting of important questions/comments could be a sign of ADD, btw, especially if it's a frequent occurrence (i know that feel, bro)

 

http://www.mayoclini...nt/con-20028831

http://www.pkdcure.o...h-pkd-questions

http://www.pkdiet.co...iet/dietpkd.htm

[niner]

Yeah manny, what gamesguru said.  Your lower back pain could be a PKD symptom.   You should bring up your family history with the doctors, since it's almost always inherited.   I didn't see any tests for iron overload in your bloodwork.  You probably ought to ask about that, if it's a concern with thalassemia minor.  I'd imagine a ferritin level would be done, but there might be other tests.

[Mr Serendipity]

@gamesguru - I've posted this in the lifestyle/nutrition part of the forum. Though many users here are only into nootropics and cognitive enhancement, longecity is a forum about overall health and longevity. But thank you for the links, they probably have a better understanding of my results.

 

@niner - Well doctors test what they like I assume. Hopefully if my doctor does get back to me cause of my PKD, I might be able to get some more blood tests, and ask about the thyroid test and ferritin test.

 

If anything, the question is moving toward, what are the best supplements for kidney support.

 

As for healthy blood, I would take:

 

B12

B6 (in a b complex)

Vitamin C

 

But not iron as I can easily overload on that according to a thalassemia website, though I did take it for 3-4 days when I was experiencing those symptoms with the GSE (which I think helped as an emergency contingency, but is not good for long run as I've got thalassemia).

 

So kidney support is what I'm looking for at the moment, while I also wait to hear from the doctor.

 

Where I have PKD or not, I can't help, nor is there a cure. So it's something I can't really worry about except support my kidneys the best I can with supplements. And obviously not overloading my body with supplements either (I was taking around 15-20 a day), which noe come to think of it, could have effect the results of the GPR.

Edited by manny, 04 September 2015 - 07:18 AM.

[niner]

There was a large long term trial that looked at blood pressure control in PKD.  The results came in just last year, showing that rigorous control of blood pressure (95/60 to 110/75 mm Hg) improves outcome.  I would be hesitant to treat it with supplements unless you really know what you're doing, because you might make it worse.

[Mr Serendipity]

Well my doctor just rang me, and I told her about the PKD.

 

She thought I said CKD and said it was nothing to worry about because in 2010 my blood test said GFR is 65 and now it's gone up to 73. This would be understandable, as I was messing around with a load of drugs back then, such as anabolic steroids, anti estrogens, anti prolactin stuff. I also realised it was 5 years since i last saw the doctors, not 7.

 

Anyway luckily I heard her say CKD (as soon as she rang me she was in a rush to get off the phone, last 2 mins), so I corrected her saying it was PKD. Then she goes, ooo that's something we should keep an eye on, and told me to get a kidney blood test by ringing up the surgery in 6 months time (apparently she'll make a note on the system so I don't have to see a doctor to get it, reception can print it off). Then get 1 every year after that.

 

Other than the result of being easily able to get a kidney blood test, I'm a little peeved at the service. Too much rushing, not enough taking time to understand what's wrong. As noted, I've only been to the doctors in 2010 and 2015, I'm not a hypercondriac trying to find a problem out of nothing, I wanted to find the real problem with my symptoms.

 

For example I've just remembered the lower back pain I experienced before, and now I'm fasting, I'm experiencing lower back pain again. Which I now think is kidney pain.

 

But who knows, my goal is to drop weight, build muscle, and slowly titrate myself onto basic supplements again (vit c, b complex, d, k, magnesium).

 

Then focus on my business, make money, and then in 6 months time get a full blood panel privately done (excluding the kidney one which I'll let the NHS pay for).

 

I'd rather get a blood test when I'm at peak health, rather then doing it and knowing the results could be better if I had implemented a few lifestyle changes beforehand.

Edited by manny, 04 September 2015 - 01:44 PM.

[gamesguru]

Yes blood pressure is important.  So too is a mindful, high potassium, low sodium diet.

Other natural recommendations are alkaline diet and neutral proteins (basically non-acidic ones) ... take this recommendation with a grain of salt, however, as it comes from just one study on rats (below).

 

Citrate therapy for polycystic kidney disease in rats

Citrate salts that have an alkalinizing effect preserve GFR and extend survival.