7 replies to this topic

[Daniel Cooper]

I'm looking for a nootropic to help with benzo paws.  Anxiety and dizziness are the major symptoms.  I tried noopept but it gave me insomnia and seemed to increase anxiety.

 

What about piracetam?  Other racetams?  NSI-189? 

 

Anyone have any idea on anything that might help?

 

 

 

[gamesguru]

racetams, nsi/dihexa will help the cognitive impairment more than lingering anxiety.

Herbal Insomnia Medications that Target GABAergic Systems: A Review of the Psychopharmacological Evidence
Honokiol and magnolol are two major bioactive constituents of M. officinalis bark which proved to be efficient in sedative and hypnotic. Honokiol increased pentobarbital-induced sleep duration in a dose-dependent manner, and treatment with honokiol (20 or 50 μM) increased the [Cl-] concentration to 36.9 or 43.9 mM in primary cultured cerebellar neurons. Additional treatment of primary cultured cerebellar granule cells showed selective GABAA receptor α-subunit expression increase, on the other hand, chronic honokiol treatment did not affect GAD abundance.

 

Chronic Caffeine (8mg/kg) Alters the Density of Adenosine,  Adrenergic , Cholinergic, GABA, and Serotonin Receptors and Calcium Channe ls in Mouse Brain
1. Chronic ingestion of caffeine by male NIH strain mice alters the density of a variety of central receptors.
2. The density of cortical A1 adenosine receptors is increased by 20%, while the density of striatal A2A adenosine receptors is unaltered.
3. The densities of cortical  β1  and  cerebellar β2 adrenergic  receptors are reduced by ca. 25% , while the densities of cortical α1 and α2 adrenergic receptors are not significantly altered. Densities of striatal D1 and D2 dopaminergic receptors are unaltered. The densities of cortical 5 HT1 and 5 HT2 serotonergic receptors are increased by 26–30%. Densities of cortical muscarinic and nicotinic receptors are increased by 40–50%. The density of cortical benzodiazepine-binding sites associated with GABAA receptors is increased by 65%, and the affinity appears slightly decreased. The density of cortical MK-801 sites associated with NMDA-glutaminergic receptors appear unaltered.
4. The density of cortical nitrendipine-binding sites associated with calcium channels is increased by 18%.
5. The results indicate that chronic ingestion of caffeine equivalent to about 100 mg/kg/day in mice causes a wide range of biochemical alterations in the central nervous system.

 

You could go the GABA antagonist route ("upregulating").

GABA_A: Ginkgo^[1], puerarin^[2], and purported Muira Puama

GABA_B:Ginseng^[3], antidepressants^[4]

 

Or the agonist route ("tapering"):

Ashwangandha, kava, bacopa, rosmarinic acid, theanine, probably more items on this list: http://examine.com/topics/Anxiety/

Chrysin or apigenin^[1]

Circumdatin I^[2]

Edited by gamesguru, 27 September 2015 - 04:02 AM.

[Area-1255]

racetams, nsi/dihexa will help the cognitive impairment more than lingering anxiety.

Herbal Insomnia Medications that Target GABAergic Systems: A Review of the Psychopharmacological Evidence
Honokiol and magnolol are two major bioactive constituents of M. officinalis bark which proved to be efficient in sedative and hypnotic. Honokiol increased pentobarbital-induced sleep duration in a dose-dependent manner, and treatment with honokiol (20 or 50 μM) increased the [Cl-] concentration to 36.9 or 43.9 mM in primary cultured cerebellar neurons. Additional treatment of primary cultured cerebellar granule cells showed selective GABAA receptor α-subunit expression increase, on the other hand, chronic honokiol treatment did not affect GAD abundance.

 

Chronic Caffeine (8mg/kg) Alters the Density of Adenosine,  Adrenergic , Cholinergic, GABA, and Serotonin Receptors and Calcium Channe ls in Mouse Brain
1. Chronic ingestion of caffeine by male NIH strain mice alters the density of a variety of central receptors.
2. The density of cortical A1 adenosine receptors is increased by 20%, while the density of striatal A2A adenosine receptors is unaltered.
3. The densities of cortical  β1  and  cerebellar β2 adrenergic  receptors are reduced by ca. 25% , while the densities of cortical α1 and α2 adrenergic receptors are not significantly altered. Densities of striatal D1 and D2 dopaminergic receptors are unaltered. The densities of cortical 5 HT1 and 5 HT2 serotonergic receptors are increased by 26–30%. Densities of cortical muscarinic and nicotinic receptors are increased by 40–50%. The density of cortical benzodiazepine-binding sites associated with GABAA receptors is increased by 65%, and the affinity appears slightly decreased. The density of cortical MK-801 sites associated with NMDA-glutaminergic receptors appear unaltered.
4. The density of cortical nitrendipine-binding sites associated with calcium channels is increased by 18%.
5. The results indicate that chronic ingestion of caffeine equivalent to about 100 mg/kg/day in mice causes a wide range of biochemical alterations in the central nervous system.

 

You could go the GABA antagonist route ("upregulating").

GABA_A: Ginkgo^[1], puerarin^[2], and purported Muira Puama

GABA_B:Ginseng^[3], antidepressants^[4]

 

Or the agonist route ("tapering"):

Ashwangandha, kava, bacopa, rosmarinic acid, theanine, probably more items on this list: http://examine.com/topics/Anxiety/

Chrysin or apigenin^[1]

Circumdatin I^[2]

There's really no proof that muira puama is antagonistic to GABA - and thus it is exactly that "purported" - it's anxiogenic effects could have to do with beta-agonism or dopamine interactions ....some studies show agonism some show antagonism. 

 

 

Phytother Res. 2009 Apr;23(4):519-24. doi: 10.1002/ptr.2664.

Antidepressant profile of Ptychopetalum olacoides Bentham (Marapuama) in mice.

Piato AL1, Rizon LP, Martins BS, Nunes DS, Elisabetsky E.

Author information

 

Abstract

Depression has become of universal major importance, and it is therefore vital to expand the armamentarium for treating the condition. Lack of motivation and lassitude are major symptoms treated with the use of Marapuama (Ptychopetalum olacoides, PO) remedies by communities in the Brazilian Amazon. Considering the prominence of such symptoms in depression, the present study was designed to verify the effects of a standardized PO ethanol extract (POEE) on the forced swimming (FST) and tail suspension tests (TST). POEE i.p. (15-100 mg/kg) and oral (300 mg/kg) resulted in a significant and dose-related anti-immobility effect. We further examined the involvement of dopamine, noradrenaline and serotonin in these antidepressant-like effects. POEE effects were prevented when catecholamine synthesis was inhibited by -alpha-methyl-rho-tyrosine (AMPT) (100 mg/kg, i.p.), while inhibition of serotonin synthesis with rho-chlorophenylalanine methyl ester hydrochloride (PCPA) (100 mg/kg, i.p.) was devoid of effect. The blockade of beta-adrenergic (propranolol 2 mg/kg, i.p.) and D(1) dopamine (SCH 23390 0.5 mg/kg, i.p.) receptors prevented POEE anti-immobility effects; by contrast, blockade of D(2) dopamine (sulpiride 2 and 50 mg/kg, i.p.) receptors was ineffective. Consistent with traditional use, the results indicate that POEE possesses antidepressant-like effects, possibly mediated by beta-adrenergic and D(1) dopamine receptors.

© 2008 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.

PMID:   19067380   [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[nicklesprout]

i'm going to try Cerebrolysin next for my benzo PAWS symptoms. it seems to have an effect on GABA receptor response, if you google 'cerebrolysin gabaa' you will see what i mean.

[Flex]

No nootropics in my sleve ^^ but I would look into "non-nootropics" as well:

 

Zizipus Jujuba = suan zao ren

 

Herbal Insomnia Medications that Target GABAergic Systems: A Review of the Psychopharmacological Evidence

In another study by Ma Yuan et al., over-expression of the α- and γ-subunits of the GABAA receptor and glutamic acid decarboxylase (GAD65/67) in cultured cerebellar granule cells was observed after sanjoinine A (5.0 μM) treatment

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC4023459/

 

for me, there was actually an anxiogenic effect but it was short lived I guess You could relieve that with kudzu, given its related to 5-ht1b antagonism. I took IIRC rhizoma chuanxiong.

 

I know that Youre looking for something anxiolytic but the effect on GAD could help You.

Beside of that I would try kava kava because of its modulating properties on Gaba a receptors and Lemon Balm extract because of its gaba transaminse inhibition (degradation inhibitor)

 

There was another gaba modulationg herb mentioned in reddit /r/nootropics or /drugnerds but I forgott it and cant find it.

 

Edit:

 

as mentioned, Magnolia but it made me personally dizzy.

Lavender calms witout causing too much sedation

Panax notoginseng abolsihes my anxiety like I´ve taken low dose of drugs

 

those 3 have also nootropic effects

 

Edited by Flex, 12 October 2015 - 08:51 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

Informative stuff guys.  Thanks.

 

Any other ideas?

 

Like Flex, feel free to go beyond nootropics.  I'm really interested in two effects - in the near term something anxiolytic to counter the anxiogenic effect of down regulated or pathologically impaired gaba receptors, and then longer term something to help repair the damage that the benzos/z-drugs have done.  That damage unfortunately appears to be of an unknown nature but we think we know from studies that given increased rates of dementia later in life that some damage is being done.

 

Speaking of which, does anyone have a handle on the exact nature of the damage that these drugs are doing?

 

 

[Junk Master]

I found Swanson's combo Lemon Balm/ Magnolia Bark to be mildly effective.  Worth the money at least.

 

I'd steer you more towards Tianeptine Sulphate or Sodium though.  Those both had a much stronger anxiolytic effect for me.

 

Plus, I know people hate to hear it all the time but meditation and exercise!

[Flex]

Couldnt find the product but Swanson offers afaik full-spectrum stuff i.e. no extracts.

 

Try 200mg Magnolia extract. trust me, its potent. Though I dont remeber whether it was a 5:1 one & etc.

 

Btw: as I looked for swanson, I found a mixture and extract of Magnolia and Ziziphus:

 

Sedintol

http://www.iherb.com...-Capsules/40753

 

and Sedintol Plus

https://www.pureform...boratories.html