145 replies to this topic

[Tubzy]

Hi Tubzy,

How's your protocol going?

Any updates?

 

Thanks!

 

Good bro.  I actually just got my custom vehicle today.  Just dissolved the seti and applied 5% topically..it's on my head right now...lol

 

I also may add in CB as well at 2.5-3%

Edited by Tubzy, 13 November 2015 - 01:24 AM.

[Huckfinn]

How about hair loss/regrowth...

.....progress?

[misterE]

Diet and MPB are not correlated.

 

 

Well if prostaglandins play a role, which they obviously do, diet would have a major impact because prostaglandins come from essential-fatty-acids and the only way EFAs get into the body is by eating them directly.

 

You made an observation that homeless people rarely bald, perhaps because they don't eat as much EFAs as the average middle-class person.

Edited by misterE, 13 November 2015 - 02:01 PM.

[Huckfinn]

Wait a second:

Hairloss -- Prostaglandins

Prostaglandins -- EFAs

EFAs  -  Omega 3, 6, 9

i.e.:

Omega 3, 6, 9 basically bad for people subject to hairloss??

 

wow!

[Tubzy]

How about hair loss/regrowth...
.....progress?

So far so good. I actually just switched to topical yesterday at 5%. No itch or shedding today at all.

PGE2 is finally shipping soon. Once I add that it should way easier to evaluate. I have like zero itch and shedding with seti. Seti won't regrow more for maintainnce though.

Go on a diet or better yet try any diet, paleo, high carb, high fat etc. If your hair comes back please let us know....

There are obese people with loads of inflammation in their body with NW0s and homeless people with NW0s. If diet did play an important in hair loss wouldn't it be noted already? I do both low carb and high carbs diets e.g. cutting and bulking and don't notice any difference in my hair.

Perhaps, diet can affect prostaglandins but not significantly enough to influence impact on your hair.

Edited by Tubzy, 13 November 2015 - 07:15 PM.

[Huckfinn]

Thanks.
Just out curiosity: have you ever noticed any association between sweating and hairloss?
I don't mean "heavy" sweating. Just tiny speckles of sweat on scalp that appear independently from phisical effort.... Many hairloss sufferers seem to hsve that..
I had reasonably greasy face skin and am applying day and night a very light film of milk of magnesia and that has completely stopped it. Was just wondering if a similar procedure with the scalp would have a positive effect.

[The Ripper]

 

How about hair loss/regrowth...
.....progress?

So far so good. I actually just switched to topical yesterday at 5%. No itch or shedding today at all.

PGE2 is finally shipping soon. Once I add that it should way easier to evaluate. I have like zero itch and shedding with seti. Seti won't regrow more for maintainnce though.

Go on a diet or better yet try any diet, paleo, high carb, high fat etc. If your hair comes back please let us know....

There are obese people with loads of inflammation in their body with NW0s and homeless people with NW0s. If diet did play an important in hair loss wouldn't it be noted already? I do both low carb and high carbs diets e.g. cutting and bulking and don't notice any difference in my hair.

Perhaps, diet can affect prostaglandins but not significantly enough to influence impact on your hair.

 

I don't necessarily agree with this. I've read a number of articles and one or two studies even that talk about the connection between Japan's post-war westernisation and increase in male pattern baldness. The studies linked this I believe to an increase in dietary fat, which would make sense according to eMister's theory.

There's also the idea of wearing down the genetic bank of a population, whereby bad diet has the negative effect on gene expression over time which causes things like acne and hair loss to become increasingly prevalent.

My two cents on diet for hair loss would certainly be to look for something that's low inflammation and low fat. Is this going to stop hair loss if you are pre-destined for NW7? Probably not. But it might slow it down a little. 

[The Ripper]

 

Diet and MPB are not correlated.

 

 

Well if prostaglandins play a role, which they obviously do, diet would have a major impact because prostaglandins come from essential-fatty-acids and the only way EFAs get into the body is by eating them directly.

 

You made an observation that homeless people rarely bald, perhaps because they don't eat as much EFAs as the average middle-class person.

 

Isn't this an oversimplification since some prostaglandins are good and some prostaglandins are bad? I mean, say we could stop all prostaglandins from affecting the hair who's to say the lack of PGE2 wouldn't wreak havoc just the same as too much PGD2 would.

[niner]

You made an observation that homeless people rarely bald, perhaps because they don't eat as much EFAs as the average middle-class person.

 

I've heard it said that alcoholics are more likely to have good hair.  I've seen a lot of bums, winos, street people, whatever you want to call them that had pretty amazing hair.  Considering that homelessness seems like it would be stressful and their diet probably sucks, it does seem like there's something going on there.  FWIW, you can find a lot of info on the net giving reasons why alcohol "should" cause hair loss.  No data though, just a lot of speculation.

[zorba990]

Diet and MPB are not correlated.

Well if prostaglandins play a role, which they obviously do, diet would have a major impact because prostaglandins come from essential-fatty-acids and the only way EFAs get into the body is by eating them directly.

You made an observation that homeless people rarely bald, perhaps because they don't eat as much EFAs as the average middle-class person.

Isn't this an oversimplification since some prostaglandins are good and some prostaglandins are bad? I mean, say we could stop all prostaglandins from affecting the hair who's to say the lack of PGE2 wouldn't wreak havoc just the same as too much PGD2 would.

This is exactly what the new thinking is. For regrowth the idea is to change the state from elevated PgD2 to elevated pge2 while also stimulating other growth factors with wounding and other methods. I view this as similar to techniques for healing things like tendonosis which needs a good inflammation response restored. If it works then at some point the new tissue levels of pge2 may be self sustaining. Which would lower the risk of chronic pge2 and growth factor elevation (which I worry would lead to skin cancer risks).

[Vitalist]

 

You made an observation that homeless people rarely bald, perhaps because they don't eat as much EFAs as the average middle-class person.

 

I've heard it said that alcoholics are more likely to have good hair.  I've seen a lot of bums, winos, street people, whatever you want to call them that had pretty amazing hair.  Considering that homelessness seems like it would be stressful and their diet probably sucks, it does seem like there's something going on there.  FWIW, you can find a lot of info on the net giving reasons why alcohol "should" cause hair loss.  No data though, just a lot of speculation.

 

 

Alcohol damages the leydig cells in the testes leading to lowered testosterone production. This means less testosterone available for conversion to DHT, the main androgen that causes MPB. 

 

http://pubs.niaaa.ni...5-4/282-287.htm

Research with animals has consistently demonstrated an association between both acute (i.e., one time, one occasion) and chronic (i.e., long-term) alcohol consumption and low testosterone. As testosterone levels decrease, levels of LH and FSH would be expected to increase to stimulate the production of more testosterone. However, studies with young (i.e., pubertal) male rats indicate that both acute and chronic alcohol exposure result in profound testosterone suppression accompanied by lower or normal LH and FSH levels, when elevated levels are expected (Hadley 1988; Yen and Jaffe 1991). This suggests that the hypothalamic cells which produce LHRH do not function correctly when the feedback normally provided by testosterone is removed (i.e., when testosterone levels decrease). Thus it appears that alcohol's damaging effects on reproduction are mediated at all three levels of the male reproductive unit: the hypothalamus, pituitary, and testes.

 

[misterE]

 

I don't necessarily agree with this. I've read a number of articles and one or two studies even that talk about the connection between Japan's post-war westernisation and increase in male pattern baldness. The studies linked this I believe to an increase in dietary fat, which would make sense according to eMister's theory.

 

 

 

Exactly, the main source of fat back in pre-WWII japan was fish-oil; rich in omega-3 fatty-acids and low in omega-6. Omega-3 makes hormones that don't contribute to inflammation, while omega-6 does. After WWII Japan became more "westernized" and began eating fried-foods, hot-dogs, eggs, etc. All of which are high in omega-6. Also rice, which is extremely low in omega-6 was their main source of calories.

[misterE]

 

 

{1} Isn't this an oversimplification since some prostaglandins are good and some prostaglandins are bad?

 

 

{2} say we could stop all prostaglandins from affecting the hair who's to say the lack of PGE2 wouldn't wreak havoc just the same as too much PGD2 would.

 

 

{1} Well, omega-3 and omega-6 basically make the same type of hormones, but the omega-3 are much weaker or softer in their action. Usually the hormones made from EPA (eicosapentaenoic-acid) are "good" and the hormones from AA (arachidonic-acid) are "bad". According to William (Bill) Lands; one of the most influential and seminal researchers into EFAs, published data showing Americans have about 80% of their tissue-HUFA coming from AA and only 20% from EPA: that is a major imbalance!

 

Also anandamide; a hormone made from AA,  has recently been shown to not only cause obesity, but also inhibits hair-growth. Eating a low omega-6 diet lowers anandamide, as does omega-3 supplementation.

 

{2} That is a reasonable argument, but PGE2 is estrogenic and inflammatory, implemented in the cause of prostate-disease; a disorder that correlates with MPB.

[misterE]

 

 

I've heard it said that alcoholics are more likely to have good hair.  I've seen a lot of bums, winos, street people, whatever you want to call them that had pretty amazing hair.  Considering that homelessness seems like it would be stressful and their diet probably sucks, it does seem like there's something going on there.  FWIW, you can find a lot of info on the net giving reasons why alcohol "should" cause hair loss.  No data though, just a lot of speculation.

 

 

Alcohol inhibits lipolysis and induces angiogenesis, it stimulates leptin and HDL, and promotes series-1 prostaglandins (which are anti-inflammatory).

 

 

Alcohol damages the leydig cells in the testes leading to lowered testosterone production.

 

Is that why alcohol makes men confident, violent and horny?

[misterE]

FASEB J. 2007 Nov;21(13):3534-41.

 

Inhibition of human hair follicle growth by endo- and exocannabinoids.

 

Telek A, Bíró T, Bodó E.

 

Abstract

 

Recent studies strongly suggest that the cannabinoid system is a key player in cell growth control. Since the organ-culture of human hair follicles (HF) offers an excellent, clinically relevant model for complex tissue interaction systems, we have asked whether the cannabinoid system plays a role in hair growth control. Here, we show that human scalp HF, intriguingly, are both targets and sources of endocannabinoids. Namely, the endocannabinoid N-arachidonoylethanolamide (anandamide, AEA) as well as the exocannabinnoid delta (9) -tetrahydrocannabinol dose-dependently inhibited hair shaft elongation and the proliferation of hair matrix keratinocytes, and induced intraepithelial apoptosis and premature HF regression (catagen). These effects were inhibited by a selective antagonist of cannabinoid receptor-1 (CB1). In contrast to CB2, CB1 was expressed in a hair cycle-dependent manner in the human HF epithelium. Since we successfully identified the presence of endocannabinoids in human HF, our data strongly suggest that human HF exploit a CB1-mediated endocannabinoid signaling system for negatively regulating their own growth. Clinically, CB1 agonists may therefore help to manage unwanted hair growth, while CB1 antagonists might counteract hair loss. Finally, human HF organ culture offers an instructive, physiologically relevant new research tool for dissecting "nonclassical" effects of endocannabinoids and their receptor-mediated signaling in general.

Edited by misterE, 16 November 2015 - 06:53 PM.

[zorba990]

Check out. http://swisstemples.com/ this isn't about dietary manipulation. Diet is an important health element, but it isn't the solution to everything.

[Tubzy]

Diet isn't going to shit for hair loss..has been tried multiple times by many people including myself.  It could help with some inflammation possibly on the scalp but very very minimal if anything..diet is better for overall health not hair.  If it was that simple MPB would be solved ages ago.  Fat people, skinny people, pot heads, drug addicts etc. everyone battles MPB to some degree no matter what your lifestyle is....

Edited by Tubzy, 17 November 2015 - 03:51 AM.

[drew_ab]

Diet isn't going to shit for hair loss..has been tried multiple times by many people including myself.  It could help with some inflammation possibly on the scalp but very very minimal if anything..diet is better for overall health not hair.  If it was that simple MPB would be solved ages ago.  Fat people, skinny people, pot heads, drug addicts etc. everyone battles MPB to some degree no matter what your lifestyle is....

 

When I switched from a meat based diet to a plant based diet, my hair loss stopped dead in its tracks and has stayed that way for just about 5 years.  And furthermore, to an extent my hairline came back.  My Mom had a hair transplant at a young age, so there is some level of epi-genetic battle going on here that I seem to be winning.

 

To be honest though, I don't care about my hair.  I never went plant based for hair.  I'd be just as happy to be bald.

[Tubzy]

 

Diet isn't going to shit for hair loss..has been tried multiple times by many people including myself.  It could help with some inflammation possibly on the scalp but very very minimal if anything..diet is better for overall health not hair.  If it was that simple MPB would be solved ages ago.  Fat people, skinny people, pot heads, drug addicts etc. everyone battles MPB to some degree no matter what your lifestyle is....

 

When I switched from a meat based diet to a plant based diet, my hair loss stopped dead in its tracks and has stayed that way for just about 5 years.  And furthermore, to an extent my hairline came back.  My Mom had a hair transplant at a young age, so there is some level of epi-genetic battle going on here that I seem to be winning.

 

To be honest though, I don't care about my hair.  I never went plant based for hair.  I'd be just as happy to be bald.

 

 

If that was the case then vegetarians would not go bald which many of them do, you seem to be a rare case...but I'm glad for you.

 

Also, vegetarians can also be deficient in vitamins and nutrients that could impact even more hair loss if not supplementing with certain nutrients

Edited by Tubzy, 17 November 2015 - 04:17 AM.

[Huckfinn]

Check out. http://swisstemples.com/ this isn't about dietary manipulation. Diet is an important health element, but it isn't the solution to everything.

 

I admit I have been busy these days and unable to check their progress well but....is anyone else been able to replicate in full swisstemples succes?

I mean: for certain people diet works (tester_no1), for others is the "Big 3", some use essential oils,  others still rub their nails together!(https://www.hairbudd...verses-graying/).......

And we're always talking about the same thing: MPB.

 

Is there yet a standardized protocol to stop/reverse hairloss?

[The Ripper]

Diet isn't going to shit for hair loss..has been tried multiple times by many people including myself.  It could help with some inflammation possibly on the scalp but very very minimal if anything..diet is better for overall health not hair.  If it was that simple MPB would be solved ages ago.  Fat people, skinny people, pot heads, drug addicts etc. everyone battles MPB to some degree no matter what your lifestyle is....

You totally ignore evidence presented regarding populations that have moved from a traditional diet to more westernised, and subsequent increases in hair loss. MisterE also explained about the role of the omega-3/omega-6 imbalance. Furthermore, as he mentioned you have the epigenetic factor to consider.

There is absolutely no doubt diet does play a role, in fact the prostaglandin theory supports this case strongly. You're talking about a cure which yes it's likely diet won't be the answer for. But explain to me how these Japanese people started getting more hair loss after dietary change? The "diet doesn't mean shit" model fails spectacularly here. 

My own broscience is in SOME individuals, diet is going to influence gene expression enough that hair loss will start to occur. I believe there's a chance bad diet over many generations will increase prevalence of things like MPB and acne. I also believe a low fat high carb diet with ideal omega-3 intake will positively influence hairloss due to the way it acts on inflammation and prostaglandins. 

 

[The Ripper]

 

 

Diet isn't going to shit for hair loss..has been tried multiple times by many people including myself.  It could help with some inflammation possibly on the scalp but very very minimal if anything..diet is better for overall health not hair.  If it was that simple MPB would be solved ages ago.  Fat people, skinny people, pot heads, drug addicts etc. everyone battles MPB to some degree no matter what your lifestyle is....

 

When I switched from a meat based diet to a plant based diet, my hair loss stopped dead in its tracks and has stayed that way for just about 5 years.  And furthermore, to an extent my hairline came back.  My Mom had a hair transplant at a young age, so there is some level of epi-genetic battle going on here that I seem to be winning.

 

To be honest though, I don't care about my hair.  I never went plant based for hair.  I'd be just as happy to be bald.

 

 

If that was the case then vegetarians would not go bald which many of them do, you seem to be a rare case...but I'm glad for you.

 

Also, vegetarians can also be deficient in vitamins and nutrients that could impact even more hair loss if not supplementing with certain nutrients

 

I don't believe people here are claiming diet as a cure, otherwise you'd be correct in pointing out we wouldn't be here. 

The part about diet I don't see as meaningful since a SAD, vegan, vegetarian, paleo, all these have no explicit relevance to an individuals health, they're merely guidelines telling the individual what they CANNOT eat, not what they can.

A vegan can eat vegan junk food and have a terrible diet. An omnivore can have an extremely healthful diet. Any diet can be good or bad depending on how its planned.

That disclaimer aside, assuming a well balanced vegan diet along the lines of someone like Dr Fuhrman or Dr John McDougall then B12 is the only vitamin requiring supplementation. The improvement in the omega-3:omega-6 ratio is probably going to be good for the hair, not worse. Furthermore, their intake of nutrients and vitamins will be much higher since they aren't being limited by the large amounts of calories consumed in nutritionally-deplete meats. That's to say, an omnivore can't eat as many vegetables and fruits as a vegan without getting fat because more space in their caloric equation is occupied by meat consumption. Also, their diets are going to be lower inflammation than most other diets. 

Edited by The Ripper, 18 November 2015 - 04:46 PM.

[Tubzy]

The evidence is weak and not clear. Like I said I do agree diet does play a role in prostaglandins but not enough to cause a significant COSMETIC impact on hair loss or growth. Go to any any public hair loss forum and mention what you just told me, you will get laughed at. This has been tried and talked about so many times. As much as I would like to have diet and natural approaches totally solve MPB the best cosmetic results from real user with picture (hellouser, swiss temples etc.) have been down the chemical route.

I'm saying diet isnt going to do much if you are suffering from MPB. It could possibly somewhat if you are other supplements (dut, minox, pgd2 inhibitors, pge2, CB, RU , OC etc.) but alone you are pretty much wasting your time.

How about you take some pictures and log your progress on any diet you want ? Let's see if there is any improvement in your hair and you can prove me wrong. Otherwise there has been no logs with people who changed their diet and stopped or regrew their hair. You are not going to convince anyone in the hair loss community by speculations and a few studies. How do you think Swiss became popular and got people to actually try his theory? Because he has PICTURES and logged his status with top doctors and researchers behind his ideas and theories.

Edited by Tubzy, 18 November 2015 - 05:00 PM.

[Violent Acoustic]

Hey Tubzy,

 

How is this going so far?

 

Any updates from anyone else?

[deetown]

I'm trying to get on the PHG forum to do a group buy for this.  Can anyone here invite me?

[Wagner83]

Have you guys given a try to such a thorough and daily massage of the scalp ?

 

http://www.jdmoyer.c...update-and-faq/

 

I can confirm excess of sebum/dandruff after massaging the scalp, the scalp itself also feels quite hard when it's massaged.

[Wagner83]

I've had good success with daily massaging of the scalp, however this was combined with not using white button mushrooms or sorghum to increase dht, I did use sorghum a few more times and started losing hair again. The massage did seem to help clear out the dht, everywhere on the scalp hair are present at a much higher density. It would be nice to find a way to keep hair and still work towards high dht though.

[twinkly]

I've had good success with daily massaging of the scalp, however this was combined with not using white button mushrooms or sorghum to increase dht, I did use sorghum a few more times and started losing hair again. The massage did seem to help clear out the dht, everywhere on the scalp hair are present at a much higher density. It would be nice to find a way to keep hair and still work towards high dht though.

Now white button mushrooms increase dht? From all my cursory investigations, everything suggests it decreases it?

[Wagner83]

I agree but I can only report what I experienced. It could be that shbg and E2 were high so that the effect on aromatase outweighed the ones on DHT, it could also be that the effects on 5AR are weaker than the ones on aromatase and free dht still went up as a result of lower shbg. I don't know.

Edited by Wagner83, 14 August 2016 - 03:32 PM.

[misterE]

I think estrogen plays a much larger role in hair-loss than DHT. One of the prostaglandins made from arachidonic-acid (omega-6) called prostaglandin-E2 induces aromatase-activity. Estrogen increases the catagen stage of hair growth in both sexes.