32 replies to this topic

[Dorian Grey]

I was reading about immunosenescence and got to pondering if this might be why so many claim they become ill shortly after getting their flu shots, a reason often cited for refusing the shot.  I personally have taken the jab, only to become ill a short time later with head colds, non-bacterial/viral sore throat and mysterious influenza like illnesses on several occasions. 

 

The pro-shot zealots scream bloody murder at anyone who dares to make this claim, wailing "dead virus vaccines can not give you the flu!"  While I certainly can understand this area of the science, I can't help but wonder if there may be another possibility that is being overlooked; specifically that the flu shot may "distract" your immune system leaving you susceptible to a flu virus that may have mutated, or perhaps colds, viral sore throat, or other Influenza Like Illnesses. 

 

As all flu vaccines are made from the previous year's strains (it takes six months to make the vaccines), and most all flu strains are known to mutate from year to year, this hypothesis doesn't seem too far fetched. 

 

Enter Immune Senescence...  The adaptive immune system, responsible for recognizing, reacting to and remembering viral pathogens exists as two parts of "Naïve" and "Memory" immune cells.  Naïve cells are more sensitive/reactive to novel/new pathogens, while memory cells primarily "remember" past threats and are not particularly reactive to novel/new bugs. 

 

In youth, naïve cells predominate the immune system and the young are rather susceptible to whatever happens to be going around.  Their naïve cells respond swiftly, the patient typically spikes a high fever, and the illness often is resolved with remarkable swiftness. 

 

As we age, the body appears to commit more immune resources to memory cells to guard against pathogens it has encountered throughout its lifetime.  This shift towards increased memory cells appears to come at a price though; this being fewer and fewer naïve cells, and a lack of reactivity to novel/new pathogens.  New bugs tend to hit harder and last longer in seniors and in fact are all too frequently fatal. 

 

One known problem with the flu shot in senior populations is that the vaccine often does not "take" and activate the immune system to be effective against the targeted strains.  This has resulted in the development of new "double-stuff" vaccines for seniors, that appear to be slightly more (though not totally) effective. 

 

What bothers me is the possibility of accelerated imunosenescence that logically should occur from a lifetime of annual vaccines against virus that may well have already mutated from the previous year when vaccine production was initiated.  Is it possible through getting too many non-vital vaccines for seasonal illness in youth and middle age we might be aging our immune system more rapidly than is wise? 

 

Another problem with the flu shots is that they provide only temporary resistance to specific sub-strains of flu, but do not seem to give lasting immunity seen in those who actually survive flu when they are young and strong.  Many believe the Spanish flu epidemic that killed millions in 1918 killed the young disproportionately because those of middle age had survived the milder Russian flu pandemic of 1889-1890 and had some cross-over immunity to the deadly Spanish flu. Vaccines are thought to provide little to no lasting cross-over immunity.  

 

By avoiding ever getting mild seasonal flu with the annual jab, are we setting ourselves up for a possible newly mutated pandemic strain there may be no vaccine for until six months to a year after the pandemic breakout? 

 

These issues, particularly my history of getting sick with "something" several times shortly after getting the shot have me rethinking the wisdom of annual vaccination.  The flu shot boosters like to talk about herd immunity, but it's largely accepted this does not occur until around 90% of the entire population participates, and as we are no where near this in society today the herd immunity argument for seasonal flu is currently moot. 

 

What say thee?  I'm curious for input from all sides.  

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3514506/

 

http://www.lifeexten...s-Aging/Page-01

 

Edited by synesthesia, 05 October 2015 - 01:52 AM.

[niner]

Decades ago, I got a flu shot and promptly got sick.  I was a little annoyed at my friend who talked me into it, and resolved to not get any more flu shots.  Now, many years later, my lungs scarred from growing up in the worst of LA smog and various other insults, I'm pretty susceptible to pulmonary infections.  In particular, if I get something like the flu, it's very likely that I'll get a bacterial secondary infection and it will be ugly.  As a result, I really don't want the flu, and reconsidered the vaccine.  I was told that "you don't get sick from them any more-- That was a problem with the old vaccines."  I decided to try my luck with the vaccine, and didn't get sick.  I've been getting them every year for about the last 15 years, and have never had a problem with the vaccine.  I also haven't had any bad cases of the flu, so now I'm kinda sold on the vaccine concept.  

 

My gut sense is that one vaccine a year isn't likely to cause much in the way of immunosenescence, given the large number of novel microbial antigens that we see in our day to day lives.

 

I guess it's possible that cross-over immunity could be an issue, but I've read that the young adult victims of the 1918 flu were killed by cytokine storms mounted by their powerful young immune systems, and that this was less of a problem with older people and children.  The fatality rate shows a pronounced peak for the 25-44 age group, while children under 14 and older adults had fatality rates not wildly different from normal flu.  People are working on "generic" flu vaccines that stimulate the immune system to react to a part of the flu virus that doesn't mutate, rather than the hypervariable regions used by current vaccines.  If that works out, then one vaccine would in theory cover you for all flu.  In the future, we'll probably have better antivirals as well, which would change the calculus in terms of the tradeoff between getting the flu today versus possibly having a milder response to some future flu.

[Dorian Grey]

Thanks for the rational reply niner...  I always refused the flu shot until around 10 years ago, when I got a flu so bad I actually thought I might die. Didn't leave my bed for 3 days.  Next season, I got the jab and promptly got a very nasty cold literally within days.  My first in several years, with a dry cough that lasted about a month.  So many people say "whenever I get the shot, I get sick" that the thought my cold might be related  to the shot entered my mind, but I went ahead and got the shot again next Fall.  

 

Again, within a week to 10 days, I developed a sore throat.  Looked online and multiple sources said if there are white spots on your tonsils, it's bacterial; if not, then it's viral.  I had no white spots so I toughed out what I figured would be a few days of pain.  A month later my throat was no better...  Still no white spots!  I went to the doc and he said "no white spots, it's not bacterial".  When I asked what we do next, he offered antibiotics, which I reluctantly took.  My throat did seem to get better, but a couple of weeks after I finished the anti-B's, my pain was back.  It lasted another month, making my misery about 3 months long.  

 

I still didn't believe there could be a connection, and got the shot again next Fall.  Again, promptly developed an upper respiratory bug.  This time, I said ENOUGH!  Nevermore!  I quit getting the shots and never had so much as a cold for several years.  Strangely enough, I was exposed to a patient at work with documented H1N1 back in 2009 and promptly got sick.  Didn't get tested for H1N1 myself, but surprisingly didn't get very ill.  Cross-immunity from my old bad flu?  Don't know, but interesting to me anyway.  

 

Now they've got mandatory masks (5 months/year) for those who don't get the shot where I work (healthcare) and shot compliance has gone from about 50% to 90%.  Interestingly is was just reported in Medscape this vastly improved compliance hasn't changed the rate of hospital acquired flu at all.  Cochrane Collaboration concurs...  Mandatory vaccination/masking is not currently justified by the data.  

 

When the 2014/2015 vaccine was found to be less than 20% effective, it was suggested all healthcare workers should wear masks for the season as the flu shot wasn't working.  The powers that be responded by flat out admitting mandatory masking of symptom free employees was intended more as an incentive to get better flu shot compliance than a vital part of infection control.  Recent healthcare reform law (Healthy People 2020) penalizes hospitals without 90% compliance.  

 

The latest rationale for mandatory vaccination isn't to protect patients from symptom free employees, but the possibility healthcare worker absenteeism from a possible pandemic might compromise the entire healthcare system.  The rationales are mutating almost as often as the flu itself!  

I'll be donning my mask till next Spring in a few weeks.  I just can't see how getting my immune system all excited about last years bugs (when they are known to mutate from year to year) is not going to compromise how my immune system might respond to this year's/current threats.  

 

We live in interesting times!  

Edited by synesthesia, 05 October 2015 - 07:18 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

Flu-Shot Follies Fact:

 

Four studies from Canada, “consistently found that vaccination in 2008/09 for seasonal influenza was associated with a 1.4- to 2.5-fold increased risk for hospitalization for H1N1 infection.” The gist of these findings suggests that people who submit to yearly flu vaccines may be weakening their immune system, making them more susceptible to severe disease when exposed to pandemic type strains such as the H1N1virus which circulated during the 2009-2010 flu season.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2850386/

 

[niner]

Flu-Shot Follies Fact:

 

Four studies from Canada, “consistently found that vaccination in 2008/09 for seasonal influenza was associated with a 1.4- to 2.5-fold increased risk for hospitalization for H1N1 infection.” The gist of these findings suggests that people who submit to yearly flu vaccines may be weakening their immune system, making them more susceptible to severe disease when exposed to pandemic type strains such as the H1N1virus which circulated during the 2009-2010 flu season.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2850386/

 

As a flu shot user, I looked at this with some concern.  After reading the article, I'm not as worried.  They saw an association only between one particular vaccine and one particular H1N1 flu, but did not see any association between other seasonal vaccines and the same H1N1 illness.  3 of the 4 studies were case-control, and may have been subject to confounding.  For example, people who are more susceptible to infection would probably be more likely to get the vaccine, but would also be more likely to be hospitalized if they got the H1N1 illness.  Also, they mentioned that similar studies in other countries didn't see the same association. 

[Dorian Grey]

OK point accepted.  Regarding the Spanish flu pandemic and the question of whether it was cross-over immunity from the Russian flu or cytokine storm...  

 

I'm curious; did they actually detect cytokines or cytokine activity in the bodies of the victims, or is this just a theory?  I'm surprised it seems to be a one-off and we don't see these storms today.  

 

Regarding the immunosenescence issue.  Immunosenescence is already a major problem for the elderly, even in those who didn't receive many vaccines over their lifetime.  Sure, we all get the daily stray pathogen exposures, but vaccines are designed to provoke a substantial immune response, and with more and more vaccines coming online (many of them mandatory), getting one shot a year may evolve into "vaccines updates" as supplemental vaccines boosters for mutated flu are developed.  The CDC is now recommending 69 doses of 16 vaccines in the first 18 years of life.  It will be interesting to see if the young ones develop dysfunctional immune issues as they age, or if immunosenescence is inevitable for us all.  

 

Don't know were this will all end, but I'm glad I'm nearing retirement and won't be around for all of the workplace jollifications much longer.

[xEva]

It's a complex issue. It makes sense that an immunization may temporary uncover a subclinical chronic infection by stressing the sys and diverting some of the resources for this new perceived threat. On the other hand, a random immunization or infection can knock out some preexisting chronic condition by nudging the immune response just in the right direction (there are anecdotal and case reports for this). The opposite may also be true, i.e. an immunization, just like a passing infection, can destabilize the sys for some time.

Edited by xEva, 09 October 2015 - 05:20 PM.

[Dorian Grey]

Here's an interesting rant about the flu shot...

 

 

Is there some bias here?  Well yes.  Were some of the claims misleading?  Apparently the navy ship where they supposedly had herd immunity was DOCKED, therefor the crew were presumably mixing with the population off the ship who did not have herd immunity.  

 

What caught my eye were the reports of "Negative Effectiveness" for flu shots in those who had gotten the shots regularly.  I found a link to the Canadian study here:

 

http://www.cidrap.um...-year-flu-shots

 

The explanation for the phenomenon apparently is, when the vaccine was tweaked slightly between the two seasons to account for virus mutation, the immune system failed to respond to the newer vaccine as it was so similar to the one from the previous year.  I expect the immunosenescence angle (lack of naive immune cells due to over-stimulation from vaccines)  could also be a factor.  

 

What concerns me is the possibility of a future problem where a fairly benign flu mutates into a deadly pandemic flu.  Those who get the shot every year might be more susceptible to the deadly mutation than those who don't routinely get the jab, but might choose to do so when a deadly pandemic flu appears.  

 

Meanwhile, back at the hospital where I work, the deadline to either get your shot or start wearing a mask full time was November 1st.  Sick calls have increased dramatically in the weeks since the deadline and some (actually many) employees are working sick. Single parents in particular, who must use their sick time to care for their children are notorious for working sick themselves.  The CDC is reporting no increase in flu activity in my area, so I assume these are ILI (influenza like illnesses) that are occurring.  

 

Interestingly, the employees who are working with patients while sick are not required to wear masks (because they got their shot) while I, who am not sick am required to be masked full time!  

 

We live in interesting times.

Edited by synesthesia, 26 November 2015 - 10:25 PM.

[ceridwen]

I had a vaccine for tick bourne encephalopathy just months before noticing cognitive decline

[Dorian Grey]

Sorry to hear of your close encounter with adverse vaccine reactions.  I expect your doc's are insisting there could be no connection.

 

According to the (American) CDC: "Approximately 30,000 VAERS reports are filed annually, with 10-15% classified as serious (resulting in permanent disability, hospitalization, life-threatening illness or death)"...  From these rather impressive numbers, the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (NVICP) manages to whittle awards down to an average of 155/year.  

 

http://www.politifac...e-illnesses-in/

 

I see you are in the UK.  Was your event reported there?  Despite the hassle and futility of pushing these reports through, it's still important to pursue these to a proper conclusion in order to maintain a proper scientific perspective on the relative risk vs reward of vaccine programs.  

[Dorian Grey]

More Flu-Shot Follies

 

The 2009 H1N1 panic left a rather troubling legacy in Europe, where around 1300 (out of 30 million) vaccinations resulted in chronic narcolepsy.  

 

http://www.cdc.gov/v...olepsy-flu.html

 

http://news.sciencem...used-narcolepsy

 

Researchers looking into what might have gone wrong have decided this was due to a genetic predisposition that caused an auto-immune reaction to the vaccine. Interestingly, the American H1N1 vaccine caused no such problem.  What was the difference in the vaccines used in America and Europe?  Well in Europe they used an "oil-in-water" emulsion adjuvant called ASO3, while in America we managed to produce an H1N1 vaccine without the oil adjuvant.  

 

And what did we learn from this unfortunate and well documented adverse event?  Apparently not much!  

 

November 2015: "FDA approves first seasonal influenza vaccine containing an adjuvant" 

 

http://www.fda.gov/N...s/ucm474295.htm

 

And the adjuvant to be used in the new vaccine?  SQUALENE, an oil-in-water emulsion!  The new adjuvant MF59 is not the same as the H1N1 European adjuvant, but it will be interesting to see how this plays out.  

 

If squalene sounds familiar to you, it may be because of the kerfuffle regarding Gulf War Syndrome and the anthrax vaccine that may or may not (depending on who you believe) have contained squalene in some of the lots.  For what it's worth, large numbers of those who developed Gulf War Syndrome were found to have developed antibodies to squalene.  

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10640454

 

Edited by synesthesia, 27 November 2015 - 01:16 AM.

[HighDesertWizard]

A few study references among many from your friendly neighborhood NF-kB Inhibition enthusiast... :-)

 

Active NF-kappaB signalling is a prerequisite for influenza virus infection

 

... it has been shown here that an active NF-kappaB signalling pathway is a general prerequisite for influenza virus infection of human cells. Cells with low NF-kappaB activity were resistant to influenza virus infection, but became susceptible upon activation of NF-kappaB. In addition, blocking of NF-kappaB activation severely impaired influenza virus infection of otherwise highly susceptible cells, including the human lung carcinoma cell lines A549 and U1752 and primary human cells. On the other hand, infection with vaccinia virus was not dependent on an active NF-kappaB signalling pathway, demonstrating the specificity of this pathway [NF-kB] for influenza virus infection.

 

Influenza viruses and the NF-kappaB signaling pathway - towards a novel concept of antiviral therapy

 

Influenza A virus remains a major public health concern, both in its annual toll in death and debilitation and its potential to cause devastating pandemics. Like any other virus, influenza A viruses are strongly dependent on cellular factors for replication. One of the hallmark signaling factors activated by viral pathogens is the transcription factor NF-kappaB. Activation of NF-kappaB leads to the up-regulation of a variety of antiviral genes. Thus, the factor is commonly regarded as a major regulator of the innate immune defense to infection. However, several recent studies indicate that influenza viruses have acquired the capability to reprogram this [NF-kB] antiviral activity and to exploit the factor for efficient replication. These data provide novel insights into the pathophysiological function of NF-kappaB in the special environment of a virus-infected cell. Furthermore, the unexpected viral dependency on a cellular signaling factor may pave the path for novel antiviral approaches targeting essential cellular components rather than viral factors.

 

From the study immediately above, I take it that the following statement is likely true... Thoughts?

 

Aggressive NF-kB Activation Inhibition is a potent means for disarming the harm influenza viruses can do before they get started.

Edited by HighDesertWizard, 27 November 2015 - 04:28 PM.

[HighDesertWizard]

From Wikipedia ... the 1918 flu pandemic

 

The 1918 flu pandemic (January 1918 – December 1920) was an unusually deadly influenza pandemic, the first of the two pandemics involving H1N1 influenza virus.^[1] It infected 500 million people across the world,^[2] including remote Pacific islands and the Arctic, and resulted in the deaths of 50 to 100 million (three to five percent of the world's population^[3]), making it one of the deadliest natural disasters in human history.^[2][4][5][6]

Most influenza outbreaks disproportionately kill juvenile, elderly, or already weakened patients; in contrast, the 1918 pandemic predominantly killed previously healthy young adults. Modern research, using virus taken from the bodies of frozen victims, has concluded that the virus kills through a cytokine storm (overreaction of the body's immune system). The strong immune reactions of young adults ravaged the body, whereas the weaker immune systems of children and middle-aged adults resulted in fewer deaths among those groups.^[7]

 

What is a Cytokine Storm?

 

Nature published a two part review of the concept and its adoption in 2007. The advent of the cytokine storm is the title of part 1.

 

For me, and many others, the difficult thing at first to digest is this... Our Immune Systems, themselves, can wreck havoc on our physical health, sometimes even to the death. These deaths in a short time during the 1918 flu pandemic from Cytokine Storms might even be imagined to be a normal lifespan wave of cytokine expression, but in a short time.

 

https://en.wikipedia.../Cytokine_storm

 

How Ebola Kills You: It's Not The Virus

 

[EDIT] : I confess that I have not investigated the science around the Ebola virus article to be confident that Ebola also kills via a cytokine storm. It does make sense to me, however, that, what makes the Ebola virus unique and deadly is that it has evolved in a way that makes halting the cytokine storm more difficult. Apologies, in advance, if my hunch is incorrect.

Edited by HighDesertWizard, 27 November 2015 - 06:48 PM.

[Dorian Grey]

Thanks so much for your input on this HDW.  I'm especially interested in the NF-KappaB stuff.  I suppose you've seen the self-hacked page on NF-kB modulation. 

 

http://selfhacked.co...tor-kappa-beta/

 

I had been taking enhanced uptake curcumin for a while, but dropped down to simple turmeric as the enhanced uptake C is so expensive.  Looks like I'd better dish out the dough for the good stuff, at least during flu season.  I was pleased to see my IP6 on the list of NF-kB modulators.  IP6 is supposed to enhance NK (natural killer) cell activity too, though there isn't much good data on this I can find.  

 

Do you know if NK cells are active against pathgens like flu?  Or is there roll primarily against cancer cells.  

 

Regarding the cytokine storms back in 1918...  Great find on this!  Guess there is at least one advantage to getting old.  

[HighDesertWizard]

<< SNIP >>

 

How Ebola Kills You: It's Not The Virus

 

[EDIT] : I confess that I have not investigated the science around the Ebola virus article to be confident that Ebola also kills via a cytokine storm. It does make sense to me, however, that, what makes the Ebola virus unique and deadly is that it has evolved in a way that makes halting the cytokine storm more difficult. Apologies, in advance, if my hunch is incorrect.

 

Per this 2010 study, an especially lethal species of the Ebola Virus is associated with a Cytokine Storm...

 

Human Fatal Zaire Ebola Virus Infection Is Associated with an Aberrant Innate Immunity and with Massive Lymphocyte Apoptosis

 

Abstract

 

Background

 

Ebolavirus species Zaire (ZEBOV) causes highly lethal hemorrhagic fever, resulting in the death of 90% of patients within days. Most information on immune responses to ZEBOV comes from in vitro studies and animal models. The paucity of data on human immune responses to this virus is mainly due to the fact that most outbreaks occur in remote areas. Published studies in this setting, based on small numbers of samples and limited panels of immunological markers, have given somewhat different results.

 

<< SNIP >>

 

Conclusions/Significance

 

This work, the largest study to be conducted to date in humans, showed that fatal outcome is associated with aberrant innate immune responses and with global suppression of adaptive immunity. The innate immune reaction was characterized by a “cytokine storm,” with hypersecretion of numerous proinflammatory cytokines, chemokines and growth factors, and by the noteworthy absence of antiviral IFNα2. Immunosuppression was characterized by very low levels of circulating cytokines produced by T lymphocytes and by massive loss of peripheral CD4 and CD8 lymphocytes, probably through Fas/FasL-mediated apoptosis.

[HighDesertWizard]

From Wikipedia about the Black Death...

 

The Black Death was one of the most devastating pandemics in human history, resulting in the deaths of an estimated 75 to 200 million people and peaking in Europe in the years 1346–53.[1][2][3] Although there were several competing theories as to the etiology of the Black Death, analysis of DNA from victims in northern and southern Europe published in 2010 and 2011 indicates that the pathogen responsible was the Yersinia pestis bacterium, probably causing several forms of plague.[4][5]

 

 

So still another of the most devastating pandemics in human history implicates a bacterium schooled in manipulating homo sapiens' innate immune systems. Apparently, Plague lethality itself is driven by a Cytokine Storm...

 

Early Host Cell Targets of Yersinia pestis during Primary Pneumonic Plague, 2013

 

Abstract

Inhalation of Yersinia pestis causes primary pneumonic plague, a highly lethal syndrome with mortality rates approaching 100%. Pneumonic plague progression is biphasic, with an initial pre-inflammatory phase facilitating bacterial growth in the absence of host inflammation, followed by a pro-inflammatory phase marked by extensive neutrophil influx, an inflammatory cytokine storm, and severe tissue destruction. Using a FRET-based probe to quantitate injection of effector proteins by the Y. pestis type III secretion system, we show that these bacteria target alveolar macrophages early during infection of mice, followed by a switch in host cell preference to neutrophils. We also demonstrate that neutrophil influx is unable to limit bacterial growth in the lung and is ultimately responsible for the severe inflammation during the lethal pro-inflammatory phase.

 

From the Wikipedia reference link

 

Spread of the Black Death in Europe (1346–53)

 

 

 

Edited by HighDesertWizard, 28 November 2015 - 04:41 PM.

[ceridwen]

So how does one stop a cytokine storm?

[niner]

So how does one stop a cytokine storm?

 

I had Legionnaire's disease about nine years ago, which started as a severe sepsis, but later developed into a cytokine storm / Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome.  I was given massive doses of corticosteroids, which clinical trials now suggest are not particularly useful.  I was also given N-acetyl cysteine to mobilize lung secretions, which might have saved my life by virtue of being a potent antioxidant.  Anti-free radical compounds like c60oo would probably be helpful.  Anti-TNF-alpha antibodies might help.  Simvastatin is said to help.  I was in the ICU for 5 weeks  (I got a lot of supportive care and was on a respirator for about a month), and by all accounts I really should have died.  Several doctors told me that it was "a miracle that I survived".  People often talk about the failure of one or more organs; I asked my doctor what it was that made my survival so unlikely, and he said "total body failure".  I was a sick pup for a while there...

[Dorian Grey]

We're glad you made it niner!  Your posts are always interesting and informative.  

[HighDesertWizard]

We're glad you made it niner!  Your posts are always interesting and informative.  

 

Yes. Your contributions are invaluable niner!

 

A case of sepsis in a young girl was the driver that got Kevin Tracey started on the road to discovery and naming of the Cholinergic Anti-Inflammatory Pathway, our Innate Mechanism for inhibiting NF-kB Activation via the Vagus Nerve...

 

Here's Dr. Tracey describing this experience in a 4 minute video...

 

 

Edited by HighDesertWizard, 30 November 2015 - 03:36 PM.

[HighDesertWizard]

Here's a study summary from 2013 entitled Targeting the “Cytokine Storm” for Therapeutic Benefit

 

Inflammation is the body's first line of defense against infection or injury, responding to challenges by activating innate and adaptive responses. Microbes have evolved a diverse range of strategies to avoid triggering inflammatory responses. However, some pathogens, such as the influenza virus and the Gram-negative bacterium Francisella tularensis, do trigger life-threatening “cytokine storms” in the host which can result in significant pathology and ultimately death. For these diseases, it has been proposed that downregulating inflammatory immune responses may improve outcome. We review some of the current candidates for treatment of cytokine storms which may prove useful in the clinic in the future and compare them to more traditional therapeutic candidates that target the pathogen rather than the host response.

 

Cytokine Storms are precisely that, a Storm. But there are also Cytokine Strong Winds and Light Breezes. They are a significant part of what kills us off.

 

 

re: Influenza Vaccination... I am not recommending my practice to others, but, here it is...

 

I used to get a Flu Shot... I don't now... I take nutritional supplements to Optimize/Modulate Innate Immunity Expression, aka, inhibit NF-kB Activation and Translocation to the Nucleus. And I haven't had a cold, flu, or anything more significant in something like 5 to 7 years. Daily, among a few other things, I usually take...

• 6 to 10 grams of EPA/DHA (aka, Omega 3s)... That's a lot, I know...
• 10,000 to 30,000 IUs of Vitamin D3
• Vitamin K
• Curcumin

For a year now I've been averaging between 10 and 30 mg of Fullerene C60-OO per day... From my following of the C60-OO posts at Longecity, I understand that I among the highest dosing C60-OO persons at Longecity. My higher dosing is based on my belief that the longevity causing mechanism of action of C60-OO is NF-kB inhibition via, what the study authors called "Spleen Saturation". I have posted about this a bit at Longecity already and will be posting more about it in the near future.

 

For about 9 months now, I have been taking 4 gelcaps of Isagenix' Product B Isagenesis. (Caveat Emptor: Yep, I'm a sales associate.) Product B is marketed to support "Telomerase Maintenance", but I take it because its ingredients, 99% by product weight, are NF-kB inhibitors. (See the google spreadsheet I put together about this fact here.)

 

I'd stop taking Isagenix Product B if I could find a better NF-kB inhibitor than it appears to be.

 

 

When I hear that a flu virus is circulating around me, I take more Omega 3s and Vitamin D3...

 

What follows is Entirely Speculative on my part but entirely consistent with the evidence I provided links to above that show Influenza "sickness symptoms" are triggered by a cytokine storm ...

 

I don't get a flu shot, and a couple times in the last few years, when a flu virus is circulating around me, I have felt, what Tracey calls, "sickness symptoms" for a couple hours. Those symptoms then pass. FWIW, I believe that, during those couple hours, my immune system is fighting the virus, as it should. But because I'm optimizing its expression with large doses of Vagal Tone Increasing NF-kB inhibitors, the fight doesn't go on longer than it should.

 

I have no evidence that my speculation immediately above is correct and true but I believe that it is. :-)

Edited by HighDesertWizard, 30 November 2015 - 03:54 PM.

[Dorian Grey]

I'm glad you still can choose whether or not you want the flu shot HDW.  It's still optional at my hospital, so long as you don't mind wearing a surgical mask 5 months a year, whether there is flu active in our city or not.  I'm expecting any year now we'll get told "just get your shot or find another line of work".  I'll take the shot if it's mandatory...  I'm not that dead-set against them.  

 

It's disappointing to see hysteria starting to trump science in a scientific field like medicine though.  As the video I posted above of the Navy ship docked in San Diego (not to mention the Cochrane Collaboration) indicate, herd immunity doesn't occur until vaccination rates approach 90% for the ENTIRE POPULATION, not simply isolated islands/occupations/populations.  

 

The day may soon come (in this land of the free?), when you might have to prove your vaccination status to do much of anything unless you're a house-bound hermit.  

 

Just today I assisted on a surgical case with a doctor who was very ill.  I was joking he sounded like Barry White and asked how long ago he got his flu shot.  He told me "earlier in the month" and when he learned I was a flu shot dodger, rolled his eyes and sighed.  Interestingly, when the case was over he pulled off his surgical mask and went off to mix with patients and staff, while I had to keep my mask on even though I was not sick.  

 

This is what evolution in the science of medicine looks like now days.  

 

We live in interesting times!  

[Dorian Grey]

Flu-Shot Fail:

 

http://www.medscape....warticle/855937

 

Flu Vaccine for All: A Critical Look at the Evidence

 

I'm shocked, SHOCKED to see such an honest and accurate account of the futility of flu shot hysteria that has spiked over the last few years.  

 

"In an interview published in The Atlantic,^[3] Tom Jefferson, head of the Vaccine Field Group at the Cochrane Database Collaboration (the world's leading producer of evidence-based medical reviews), voiced serious reservations about the data supporting influenza vaccine recommendations, stating that "The vast majority of the studies [are] deeply flawed. Rubbish is not a scientific term, but I think it's the term that applies."

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This is a great article on the epic fail of the flu-shot hysteria.  Sign into Medscape and read the entire piece (and the comments) and learn something new today!  

[Dorian Grey]

Yet Another Flu-Shot Fail:

 

http://www.medscape....warticle/851347

 

Benefit of Healthcare Worker Flu Shots Questioned

 

Another remarkable article from Medscape (which usually toes the line on vaccines) exposing the folly of the "Healthy People 2020" mandate hospitals achieve 90% flu shot vaccination or lose Medicare dollars.  

 

"Once the rate of influenza-vaccinated healthcare workers reaches about 50%, there is no further reduction in the rate of patients with hospital-acquired influenza, a new study shows."

 

"During the five flu seasons from 2010 to 2015, there was a significant increase in the rate of vaccinated healthcare workers at the University of New Mexico Health Sciences Center (P < .001).

However, the rate of hospital-acquired influenza — defined as infections diagnosed at least 48 hours after admission in patients who presented to the hospital without influenza-like symptoms in the previous 24 hours — plateaued once about half the healthcare personnel were vaccinated.

In contrast, the Healthy People 2020 objective calls for the mandatory immunization of 90% of healthcare personnel. And a policy statement on infectious diseases just issued by the American Academy of Pediatrics declared that influenza vaccination should be mandatory for all healthcare personnel (Pediatrics. Published online September 7, 2015)."

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Another triumph of political hysteria over science, throwing sand in the gears of a medical machine already over-burdened by relentless micromanagement.  

[albedo]

Great discussion and bumping it up. I am considering it as approaching 65 yo.

[Dorian Grey]

Thanks albedo.  I hadn't visited this thread in a while.  I'm still wearing my mask and staying healthy around co-workers who got the jab and are now working sick (without a mask) around patients.  Am I staying healthy simply because I have to wear a mask, or because my immune system hasn't been reprogrammed to prioritize being on guard for last years bugs that were used making this years flu shot?  Perhaps they should start mandating masks for patients and not healthcare workers!  

 

My girlfriend got the jab a couple months back and promptly caught a cold from her 2 year old granddaughter who's in daycare.  Brought it home to me and I got it too.  Mine stayed in my head and resolved within a week, but Kim's went deep into her lungs and she's still hacking out the last of it with a very reactive airway.  

 

I hear they're working on a universal flu shot that will be effective against all strains for years/life?  I'll punt on this vaccine too until I see what kind of side effects turn up when it's unleashed on the masses.  

 

Stay Healthy My Friends!  

Edited by synesthesia, 11 February 2017 - 07:03 PM.

[albedo]

Thank you Synesthesia. I am scrolling LC searching for info on this and related. Niner and Logic made interesting comments in another old thread:

http://www.longecity...ndpost&p=759960

You might wish to contribute also there.

Edited by albedo, 11 February 2017 - 10:23 PM.

[SearchHorizon]

Slightly off the thread, but still within the original topic, I wanted to post one idea on the aging - it says many symptoms of aging are driving by our aging immune system.

 

As our immune system learns to deal with more foreign protein types, more information it must carry. It has to have distinguish greater number of different viruses. As our immune system becomes filled with information, it becomes more likely to become "confused" (unable to distinguish one protein type from another) and hence, lead to its malfunction. As the immune system continues to age, it becomes more likely to attack its host and turns inflmmatory. Eventually, the immune system kills our own body.

 

(1) This theory is consistent with what some people experienced with flu shots. I remember, for example, one Redskins cheerleader who couldn't walk properly after a shot (TV news covered her case and showed her trying to walk - she could only hop backwards - very disturbing). This leads me to suspect that her immune system may have attacked her nerve cells. How else could she have sustained mangling of her motor skills?

 

(2) Consider Alzheimer's. Alzheimer's disease has an aspect that is very much like an inflammatory response to a viral infection. Except that there is no viral infection.

 

(3) If you chronically administer ablow dose aspirin to elderly, it will help them with some cardiovascular issues. Apparently, it reduces inflammation of the tissues. Again, this points to our immune system as responsible for part of our aging.

 

(4) Next piece of evidence that our immune system may have something to do with physical aging is parabiosis experiments. This experiments makes it clear that some aging signal is carried through our plasma. 

 

 

 

Edited by SearchHorizon, 12 March 2017 - 02:06 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

OK, girlfriend just got her (mandatory/nursing)  2017/2018 flu shot November 10th, & two days later her hearing went off.  Said it sounded like she had water in her ears she could not get out.  Got straight into an ENT doc who said there was nothing in her outer ear (wax/water) and no sign of inner ear pressure/infection looking at her ear drum.  Doc scheduled her for a CT scan.  

 

This about drove her to madness over the last week or so as she said she felt completely "disassociated" from the world and couldn't stop thinking about what might be wrong or if she would ever get better.  Symptoms finally cleared this last week of November and she feels born again to be back in the real world.  CT scan cancelled!  

 

Oh... And the boffins are now giving this years shot a 10% effectiveness rating for the most common H3N2 strain of flu that plagued Australia.  

 

http://www.dailymail...tive-shots.html

 

All are saying you should still get the shot because it "might" make the flu less severe; this even though the "less severe" hypothesis has never actually been proven through studies.  

 

We live in interesting times!  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 02 December 2017 - 05:51 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

RFK Jr. blows the whistle on the DREADED FLU SHOT: Influenza vaccine makes you highly susceptible to other viruses, especially COVID-19

 

https://www.naturaln...d-flu-shot.html

 

 

 

• Robert F. Kennedy Jr. warns against taking the flu shot due to limited protection against circulating flu strains and increased risk of non-flu viral infections.
• Research from the British Medical Journal indicates that the flu shot may prime the immune system for non-flu viral upper-respiratory infections.
• A Pentagon study found that individuals who received the flu shot were 36% more likely to catch coronavirus.

“I would not take the flu shot in a million years, and I’ll tell you why,” says Robert F. Kennedy Jr., the newly appointed head of Health and Human Resources for the United States of America. Basically, when you get a flu shot, you are only protected against a few (sometimes only one) particular strains of flu, out of about a dozen or more possible that could be circulating that flu season, which lasts from October through May. Those injected folks are FOUR TIMES more likely to get a non-flu viral infection. Ever notice how many people who get the flu shot get sick right away?

 

RFK Jr. says, from the research he reviewed from British Medical Journal, that the flu shot gives you what is called flu shot priming, so it injures your immune system so that you are more likely to get a non-flu viral upper-respiratory infection. What’s worse is that a study published by the Pentagon found that people who got the flu shot were 36 percent more likely to catch… wait for it… Coronavirus.

Edited by Dorian Grey, Yesterday, 04:21 PM.