2255 replies to this topic

[soulprogrammer]

"If you have access to the paper, you might consider posting it for others to consider ..."

 

Full paper

 

http://s000.tinyuplo...288827097652553

 

 

 

Edited by soulprogrammer, 21 April 2017 - 02:17 AM.

[bluemoon]

I have also reduced 12 lbs after increasing dose from 250mg to 375 mg and 500 mg since the beginning of the year. Losing weight is easier than before.

 

 

 

Mike, your posts are factual and precise, so we sorely need them at the Experiences thread. Why let your contributions go to waste here, where they are being disregarded  because people focus on trying to interprete scientific research?

 

I'm not disregarding it. But it looks like MikeDC is showing the results after a few months of taking NR at 250 mg and then increasing to 375 mg and 500 mg so aren't the results for the 375/500 mg range?

[bluemoon]

 

I have not seen any improvement of age spot or grey hair.

Didn't you swear on NR reversing gray hair?

 

 

One 62 year old I know who has had a full head of grey/white hair from his 40 showed me the back of his head after taking 250 mg of NR for four months. The back of his head has some evenly distributed black hair there now - around a fourth of it  - but can't notice a change in the front. 

[MikeDC]

I have also reduced 12 lbs after increasing dose from 250mg to 375 mg and 500 mg since the beginning of the year. Losing weight is easier than before.



Mike, your posts are factual and precise, so we sorely need them at the Experiences thread. Why let your contributions go to waste here, where they are being disregarded because people focus on trying to interprete scientific research?

I'm not disregarding it. But it looks like MikeDC is showing the results after a few months of taking NR at 250 mg and then increasing to 375 mg and 500 mg so aren't the results for the 375/500 mg range?

The blood test was done before I increased dose to 375 and 500.

[sthira]

The second blood test was before Niagen. The first one is 9 month after Niagen at 250mg daily dose.

These look like great results to me! Congratulations and keep doing what you're doing.

[bluemoon]

 Michael wrote a few days ago

 

"we already know that nicotinamide nicotinic acid raises HDL and lowers TG (and modestly reduces LDL)."

 

With the n=1 study out of D.C. it looks like the 27% reduction in his LDL with NR was more than the modest reduction with nicotinamide nicotinic acid, which is nice to know. 

 

(MikeDC's report is hardly off topic when posted in the context of what Michael had just written.)

 

 

 

 

[Harkijn]

I find it important to log here that I was not the one rating many posts here as OT, though they are. The rating system is what you call inflammatory...., and inflammation is bad for you....

[Nate-2004]

I wish I could claim these results with the grey hair, my beard is still grey as well as my hair, after more than 13 months of using NR. I don't think the mechanisms of greying hair, or baldness for that matter, are NAD+/SIRT or DNA related. It may be more related to pentosidine or glucosepane AGEs. There are zero studies on NR and hair, just as there is so little progress in research on balding or greying. 

 

As for the rating system, I agree. It's inflammatory and useless. I think someone is going around randomly marking everything off topic if you ask me. I'm sure I'll get dinged too, despite the above statement being completely on topic with NR.  Reddit's is far better. I think it would also help to change to a more modern style forum similar to Reddit or Disqus. If those of you who got dinged are seeing extra green good marks on your posts it's probably me, evening the score. I rarely mark people with bad marks unless they're just being mean.

Edited by Nate-2004, 21 April 2017 - 05:37 PM.

[sthira]

I think when anyone works to improve physical health and wellbeing that we should be encouraging. Clearly these improvements in blood lipids for Mike look great. Is it NR that's doing it? Did losing 12-pounds confound results? Or did he improve some other health aspect along the way? If Mike believes NR is helping lower risks associated with high cholesterol, then why shouldn't he tell us about it?

I draw the line at stock pumping, though, and it's always difficult to negotiate anonymous anecdotes. To separate truth from hype in the Wild West of vitamin marketing remains a challenge no matter which thread we use to write our opinion.

It could be that Mike saw cholesterol improvements because he had a prior B3 deficiency, and Niagen boosted him back to baseline. Who's to say? But I value anecdote anyway.

[bluemoon]

 

I draw the line at stock pumping, though, and it's always difficult to negotiate anonymous anecdotes. To separate truth from hype in the Wild West of vitamin marketing remains a challenge no matter which thread we use to write our opinion. 

 

Fortunately, there is no way one could successfully stock pump here since so few read LongeCity. Speaking of which, ChromaDex stock is at $2.32, about half of the 2016 average and this is after Yahoo put up the late March transcript of the CEO indicating that the NR trial was looking good. 

[ambivalent]

I find it important to log here that I was not the one rating many posts here as OT, though they are. The rating system is what you call inflammatory...., and inflammation is bad for you....

 

It seems to have been manufactured out of a desire for efficiency, to train people to act within certain constraints but it fails in effectiveness. Some people get so hacked off that they stop contributing and abandon the forum, others simply become-risk averse and avoid posting useful information which might be red-flagged or dare straying off-topic when it could be very insightful to do so.

 

If you want threads to stay on topic then the best approach is to provide a mechanism for handling the conversational off-shoot rather than censor against it.

 

The marking system also makes people lazy. In life if we express disagreement we are compelled to offer an explanation: we don't listen to someone express a view around a coffee table and collectively signal a muted thumbs down. To disagree almost always requires an explanation - here, half a dozen people can express disagreement without a counterargument offered: it winds people up.

 

'Pointless, Timewasting' is simply offensive and rather bullying - it wouldn't be considered etiquette in almost any conversation circle and would rarely be constructive, yet it is a response that is frequently and easily administered on these forums.

 

Designing a system of reward rather than punishment, as others have mentioned, would serve the community much better. We know that these rather blunt responses would be counterproductive in a real-life context, yet it is somehow assumed that maintaining those well-developed social norms in the virtual world is an unnecessary indulgence and stagnates progress. My subjective observation here over the last couple of years here is that progress and participation has suffered on the site, yet it surprisingly comes at a time when interest and belief in life-extension is beginning to snowball.

[bluemoon]

 Michael wrote a few days ago

 

"we already know that nicotinamide nicotinic acid raises HDL and lowers TG (and modestly reduces LDL)."

 

With the n=1 study out of D.C. it looks like the 27% reduction in his LDL with NR was more than the modest reduction with nicotinamide nicotinic acid, which is nice to know. 

 

(MikeDC's report is hardly off topic when posted in the context of what Michael had just written.)

 

Oops. I accidentally mixed up the triglyceride drop with the cholesterol  drop, which was 9%.

 

We at Bluemoon Ltd. regret the error.  

[sthira]

Tag names to marks. Done.

And, hey this is infotainment, all threads always stray off topic, and sometimes we stray in rewarding and fascinating directions. No one is arguing their tightly aimed PhD here.

Relax, immortalists, we have forever to learn how to get along with one another; even as we bob around lost in the seas of life extension confusion AGI will ultimately wash over us. Meanwhile, enjoy the ride and try to love.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

I wish I could claim these results with the grey hair, my beard is still grey as well as my hair, after more than 13 months of using NR. I don't think the mechanisms of greying hair, or baldness for that matter, are NAD+/SIRT or DNA related. It may be more related to pentosidine or glucosepane AGEs. There are zero studies on NR and hair, just as there is so little progress in research on balding or greying.

 

Try nicotinic acid for the graying of your hair. I am sure it will work.

 

Edited by Michael, 23 April 2017 - 04:22 PM.
Trim quote

[MikeDC]

 

I wish I could claim these results with the grey hair, my beard is still grey as well as my hair

Try nicotinic acid for the graying of your hair. I am sure it will work.

 

Millions of people take large doses of niacin. How come nobody reported grey hair turning black? And why nobody reported anti aging effects?

Edited by Michael, 23 April 2017 - 04:23 PM.
Trim quote

[bluemoon]

NR sold by ChromaDex in kgs:

 

2015        8,200

2016      11,500 

2017*     15,700

 

Number of people taking NR (at least 6 bottles a year):

 

2015    117,000

2016    163,000

2017     222,000

 

* projected by ChromaDex

 

 

more details and speculation here:

 

https://www.right-of-assembly.org/single-post/2017/04/19/ChromaDexs-New-Investor-Show

[Nate-2004]

We obviously have a troll who's marking everyone's post as off topic. This is the main problem with this rating system. I guarantee you half of my negative marks are from trolls we've had on the board.

 

As for niacin being the cure for grey hair, no. It isn't. I will say that now with all the certainty and confidence in the world. If it were we'd have it in the news and everyone would be saving several hundred a year on hair colorings. If you're going to make a claim like that not only do you need to back it up with references but you need to explain the mechanism of action.

 

I'm betting dollars to donuts that the problem is glycation.

 

I have been running NR across my face for a solid 8 months now by mixing it into a couple of squirts of lotion each time I apply it to my face. While I think it makes my skin look great, it hasn't de-greyed my beard or reduced any deep wrinkles that appear around my eyes when I smile. It hasn't improved the elasticity to a degree that I look 30 again, much less 20, and it hasn't made a dent in hair thickening because I run the excess through my hair and into my scalp. Topical NR is mostly a bust and I'm probably wasting precious NR on this experiment.

[Heisok]

Chromadex released the new presentation on April 18th, as an SEC 8K document due to there being new public information. I am not knowledgeable enough to figure out what is new. They list Human studies to come, and they have information that they directly market Niagen via Amazon as Tru Niagen. If I remember correctly, Bryan indicated that using the ratings was encouraged to try to be a part of keeping the topic on point. Maybe it was somebody else though.

 

http://investors.chr...2121&p=irol-sec

 

 DTC.jpg   76.61KB   5 downloads

 

 studies.jpg   72.03KB   5 downloads

Edited by Heisok, 21 April 2017 - 10:37 PM.

[soulprogrammer]

@P&P, you still haven't answer which vitamin can reduce triglycerides by more than 27% in one day?

 

"A 27% reduction in triglycerides over 9 months is extremely poor when you can take a vitamin and in about one day much further reduce triglyceride levels. "

 

Which vitamin can achieve a reduction of 27% or more in triglycerides in one day? I mean seriously, P&P,  could you point me/link me to any research paper which say so, it will definitely benefit many people I believe.

[bluemoon]

 You know, just ignore the Off Topic / Time Wasting stuff. This is just an NR thread. We aren't trying to buy our way into heaven with "likes" as Catholics did with indulgences, right?

 

We can speculate but in a few weeks we get hard data from ChromaDex and at some point from Elysium.  

 

[warner]

[The rating system] seems to have been manufactured out of a desire for efficiency, to train people to act within certain constraints but it fails in effectiveness. Some people get so hacked off that they stop contributing and abandon the forum, others simply become-risk averse and avoid posting useful information which might be red-flagged or dare straying off-topic when it could be very insightful to do so.

 

If you want threads to stay on topic then the best approach is to provide a mechanism for handling the conversational off-shoot rather than censor against it.

 

The marking system also makes people lazy. ...

 

'Pointless, Timewasting' is simply offensive and rather bullying  ...

 

Designing a system of reward rather than punishment, as others have mentioned, would serve the community much better. ...

 

Finally!  A voice of reason.  I've been wanting to write those words for a long time.

 

Reward rather than punishment.  Plus tie ratings to raters.  The trick is to get people to contribute, not to shut them up.

 

I would drop the marking system altogether since it does not promote good science.  Simply ignore what you're not interested in, engage those worth engaging, and have a trusted moderator remove the garbage.  (And no, I have never, and will never use this silly system to mark the posts of others.)

Edited by Michael, 23 April 2017 - 04:25 PM.
Trim quote

[warner]

I took 125 mg of NR for a few weeks in fall and then went up to 250 mg in January. Within two or three days I started to sleep like a rock. I don't seem to need as much sleep anymore and my dreams are consistently lucid. Maybe not every night but easily most days which took some getting used to. I take NR in the morning and never at night. There are times when I'll get 4 to 5 hours of sleep instead of the usual 7 or so, which can be annoying. Also, when I wake up, I am *awake* - no need for coffee, but it isn't a stimulant feeling. My 62 year old friend (I'm 47) with the vision says he noticed no change in sleep or dreams but improved vision and energy. Go figure.

 

Weird that some people are kept awake while others, like me, sleep even more soundly than usual with NR later at night before bed. What's even more interesting is that I'm prone to insomnia.

As described earlier, inspired by the research showing NAM (at very high doses) slowing glaucoma progression in mice, I'm continuing to take 125mg of NR at 2:30 AM (middle of sleep period), with hope that increased NAD+ levels will help prevent most retinal nerve damage at night when retinal circulation and nutrient levels are reduced (from lower blood nutrient levels + lower blood flow due to higher IOP and lower BP).  In other words, I'm not taking the NR to reduce IOP (as I noticed some others may have thought), but rather to protect nerves/tissue exposed to temporarily reduced nutrient levels (oxygen, glucose, etc.) during sleep.

 

Anyway, as reported earlier, the NR makes me more wakeful between about 4AM and 6 AM, but, strangely, I am able to easily "will" myself back to sleep by simply starting a new dream, and am able to get up at 6AM without feeling tired.  (Sounding similar to bluemoon's experience.)  Also, the NR has reduced the occasional pain I would get from reduced circulation caused by continued pressure on one part of my body or another.  IOW, when younger, parts of my body would fall asleep but without accompanying pain, but, when older, similar occurrences of reduced circulation were accompanied by pain.  So perhaps that aging effect/pain is associated with lower NAD+ levels (as well as other reduced hormone levels), and that NR supplementation can help reverse that.  And hopefully my retina will be similarly protected by NR.

[MikeDC]

@P&P, you still haven't answer which vitamin can reduce triglycerides by more than 27% in one day?

"A 27% reduction in triglycerides over 9 months is extremely poor when you can take a vitamin and in about one day much further reduce triglyceride levels. "

Which vitamin can achieve a reduction of 27% or more in triglycerides in one day? I mean seriously, P&P, could you point me/link me to any research paper which say so, it will definitely benefit many people I believe.

P&P is a NR basher.

[sthira]

@P&P, you still haven't answer which vitamin can reduce triglycerides by more than 27% in one day?

"A 27% reduction in triglycerides over 9 months is extremely poor when you can take a vitamin and in about one day much further reduce triglyceride levels. "

Which vitamin can achieve a reduction of 27% or more in triglycerides in one day? I mean seriously, P&P, could you point me/link me to any research paper which say so, it will definitely benefit many people I believe.

P&P is a NR basher.

The burden of proof remains on the product. NR needs to be doubted until it moves past the studies featuring genetically altered mice. Then come the human studies which are to be performed, replicated, performed again, and then repilcated again and again and again. Until AGI ramps up involvement, the slow grinding wheels of science will keep us stuck here in the muds of doubt.

[MikeDC]

@P&P, you still haven't answer which vitamin can reduce triglycerides by more than 27% in one day?

"A 27% reduction in triglycerides over 9 months is extremely poor when you can take a vitamin and in about one day much further reduce triglyceride levels. "

Which vitamin can achieve a reduction of 27% or more in triglycerides in one day? I mean seriously, P&P, could you point me/link me to any research paper which say so, it will definitely benefit many people I believe.

P&P is a NR basher.

The burden of proof remains on the product. NR needs to be doubted until it moves past the studies featuring genetically altered mice. Then come the human studies which are to be performed, replicated, performed again, and then repilcated again and again and again. Until AGI ramps up involvement, the slow grinding wheels of science will keep us stuck here in the muds of doubt.

NR has already passed genetically modified mise by a mile.
Human phase I stidies on dose and safety and NAD+ have been completed. Effectiveness against aging and diseases will be published soon. Plus the 300,000 people that are experimenting on themselves.

[bluemoon]

 

The burden of proof remains on the product. NR needs to be doubted until it moves past the studies featuring genetically altered mice. Then come the human studies which are to be performed, replicated, performed again, and then repilcated again and again and again. Until AGI ramps up involvement, the slow grinding wheels of science will keep us stuck here in the muds of doubt.

 

I have disagreed with MikeDC  but his last comment is right. 

 

There are at least 12 human trials covering Alzheimer's disease, brain injuries, heart failure, aging, obesity, diabetic neuropathy, endurance and quite a bit will be known in just a couple of months when Chromadex releases its results. 

 

Everyone will decide for himself or herself at what point they want to take NR, if at all. Most won't need years of replication. From what I can tell, many of the current 12 studies will be completed by 2018 and the information will be announced then, maybe announced early or possibly announced when a publication comes out.  

[Michael]

 

 

The burden of proof remains on the product. NR needs to be doubted until it moves past the studies featuring genetically altered mice. Then come the human studies which are to be performed, replicated, performed again, and then repilcated again and again and again. Until AGI ramps up involvement, the slow grinding wheels of science will keep us stuck here in the muds of doubt.

NR has already passed genetically modified mise by a mile.
Human phase I stidies on dose and safety and NAD+ have been completed. Effectiveness against aging and diseases will be published soon. Plus the 300,000 people that are experimenting on themselves.

I have disagreed with MikeDC  but his last comment is right. 
 
There are at least 12 human trials covering Alzheimer's disease, brain injuries, heart failure, aging, obesity, diabetic neuropathy, endurance and quite a bit will be known in just a couple of months when Chromadex releases its results. 
 
Everyone will decide for himself or herself at what point they want to take NR, if at all. Most won't need years of replication. From what I can tell, many of the current 12 studies will be completed by 2018 and the information will be announced then, maybe announced early or possibly announced when a publication comes out.

ISTM that you're agreeing more with Sthira, here. Even if you don't think replication studies will be needed, you still seem to be cognizant of the need for actual human trials, the results of which as you've just said are yet forthcoming (aside from the de minimis report on bioavailability and pharmacokinetics (on NR and its metabolites in circulation) already in print). To suggest that "NR has already passed genetically altered [not only "modified," NB) mice by a mile" clearly isn't justified at this time. And most of the forthcoming trials are also just more pharmacokinetics, with no clinical outcomes — and all of them are short-term.

 

I don't see any trials on Alzheimer's, by the way — can you point to one?

 

There are clearly not 300,000 people that are experimenting on themselves with NR: as the analysis of Chromadex's SEC filing you (bluemoon) notes, their annual sales have not exceeded enough for 222,000 consumers at one 60-cap bottle every two months; if we assume instead that most people who try it at all are at least taking the recommended 250 mg daily, many are taking  375-500 mg, and a few are taking more (as is borne out here at Longecity and in other Forums), the number is much smaller — and the vast majority of these folks are doing all kinds of other unusual things to improve their health, and no one is actively monitoring their outcomes. It took decades to figure out that supra-RDA preformed vitamin A supplementation is bad for your bones, that beta-carotene supplementation has no effect on or increases risk of lung cancer in smokers, that selenium supplementation beyond perhaps 100 mcg increases your risk of diabetes, etc — and far more people were taking these at the time.

[MikeDC]

This is the list of clinical trials

Attached Files

•  image.jpg   92.09KB   2 downloads

[MikeDC]

This trial has been completed. The CEO hinted in the conference call that the results
Are good. Personally I think it is hard to achieve positive results with only 6 weeks of using NR.


Further study details as provided by University of Colorado, Boulder:

Primary Outcome Measures:
Incidence of treatment emergent adverse events [ Time Frame: 6 weeks ]
self reported side effects, vital signs, hematology, liver enzymes, markers of kidney function and blood chemistry


Secondary Outcome Measures:
Endothelium Dependent Dilation [ Time Frame: 6 weeks ]
Brachial Artery Flow-Mediated Dilation (FMD)

Arterial Stiffness [ Time Frame: 6 weeks ]
Aortic Pulse Wave Velocity (PWV)

Cognitive Function [ Time Frame: 6 weeks ]
NIH Toolbox Cognitive Function Battery

Motor Function [ Time Frame: 6 weeks ]
NIH Toolbox Motor Function Battery

Systemic markers of oxidative stress and inflammation [ Time Frame: 6 weeks ]
Assessment of plasma C-reactive protein (CRP) and circulating and mononuclear cell-derived cytokine and antioxidant expression.

[Michael]

This is the list of clinical trials

 

Thanks. Where did you find this? Most of the "scheduled" trials are not mentioned in the recent shareholder letter from the CEO.