25 replies to this topic

[aconita]

A 1981 study by researchers from the Medical Clinic V. University of Rome, Rome, Italy showed a surprisingly good response in HGH release from oral administration of argynine pyroglutamate in combination with lysine in really tiny amounts.

 

Arginine pyroglutamate has the ability to pass the brain barrier, that's probably why is so effective in such small amounts and why causes such a remarkable effect on HGH release.

 

All other forms of arginine don't do that and the effect on HGH is after all negligible or even negative, therefore arginine pyroglutamate is in a class of its own.  

 

http://members.shaw....DORI_study.html

 

Fifteen healthy male subjects, aged 15 to 20 years old, were given 1,200 mg of arginine pyroglutamate combined with 1,200 mg of L-lysine hydrochloride.

 

The results of this specific combination were spectacular, causing a large GH release that was sustained for several hours.

 

This breakthrough paper has often been misquoted and discounted, as several other researchers failed to replicate the results.

 

Unfortunately, these subsequent researchers used arginine hydrochloride and NOT arginine pyroglutamate, which was used with great results in the original study in 1981.

 

This is disappointing, as it had been known since 1977 that the specific chelate of arginine and pyroglutamic acid (arginine pyroglutamate) had effects on the body that are not shared by arginine or pyroglutamic acid when taken individually or together.

 

No nutritional supplement has shown equivalent results to the combination of arginine pyroglutamate and lysine for releasing significant amounts of biologically active GH when taken orally in small doses.

 

Interestingly, when both arginine pyroglutamate and lysine are taken individually, even in large doses, they are not effective.16 It is the specific combination of arginine pyroglutamate and lysine, taken in the proper ratio, which makes a very effective GH releaser.

 

http://www.ascorbade.com/arginine.htm

 

Unfortunately it seems that here in Europe arginine pyroglutamate is rare to find and largely overpriced, if anybody knows a reliable seller with reasonable prices the information will be warmly welcome.

 

It may well be one of the cheapest and safest ways of increasing the release of HGH (in USA 500gr of arginine pyroglutamate, roughly enough for 1 year, goes for about 35$ and lysine is even cheaper).

 

Probably overlooked because too simple and not patentable...:(

 

Any direct experiences with this HGH booster?

[Junk Master]

Interesting, especially the fact that arginine pyroglutamate crosses the blood/brain barrier.

 

I know from experience that plain ol' Arginine does do anything, really, as far as an HGH releaser.  Especially when compared to MK-77.

 

Nice find!

[existence]

Amazon won't ship to you? They even have a product with these 2 combined in these exact dosages.

 

EDIT: I did not make that a hyperlink...

Edited by existence, 25 October 2015 - 10:15 PM.

[aconita]

Yes, I know Ultimate Nutrition makes a supplement already in capsules form (it is the only company doing so, at least in respect to the original formula of the mentioned study, AFAIK) but it is an US based company and even if may be found in EU it will be really expensive for what it should be.

 

I always try very hard to find raw substances and eventually encapsulate by myself because it will cost just a fraction.

 

Importing from outside EU is a pain in the neck because no more than 1 month supply is allowed (if memory doesn't tricks me) and value has to be below 22 euro or import taxes will apply (plus a huge deal of time wasting and harassment), chances are even that the package will be returned or destroyed, that's why many if not most US company don't ship anymore supplements to EU (Powdercity, for example).

 

By the way, I suspect that Ultimate Nutrition product appear not to be extremely popular or well known because it will appeal mainly to bodybuilders looking for the " arginine pump" due to the supposed nitric oxide rise arginine causes.

 

I suspect nobody in the bodybuilding circle will put much faith in 1200mg arginine for pumping...plus If arginine is taken before a workout HGH levels will drop, only if taken before bed a rise will follow (even if very modest and short lived), the product is also way more expensive than plain l-arginine powder therefore not very appealing.

 

Because bodybuilders tend to take arginine supplements before a workout due to the pumping effect they look for it is possible that even if arginine pyroglutamate/lysine is a very different supplement compared to L-arginine it will be not very effective or even detrimental for HGH if taken before a workout...therefore nobody really experiencing any benefit from it.

[existence]

I always try very hard to find raw substances and eventually encapsulate by myself because it will cost just a fraction.

 

 

I hear you. I always go back and forth on that. Saves so much money but takes so much time, even with my contraption. At least with some stuff you can just toss it in a glass of water.

 

By the way, I suspect that Ultimate Nutrition product appear not to be extremely popular or well known because it will appeal mainly to bodybuilders looking for the " arginine pump" due to the supposed nitric oxide rise arginine causes.

 

I suspect nobody in the bodybuilding circle will put much faith in 1200mg arginine for pumping...plus If arginine is taken before a workout HGH levels will drop, only if taken before bed a rise will follow (even if very modest and short lived), the product is also way more expensive than plain l-arginine powder therefore not very appealing.

 

Because bodybuilders tend to take arginine supplements before a workout due to the pumping effect they look for it is possible that even if arginine pyroglutamate/lysine is a very different supplement compared to L-arginine it will be not very effective or even detrimental for HGH if taken before a workout...therefore nobody really experiencing any benefit from it.

 

Yes I was wondering about that. It's still curious, since those guys seem so desperate to find anything that will give them an edge.

 

Sorry for your shipping woes. I guess I should be thankful for my location.

 

[IWS]

aconita, did you find a reliable source? I remember there was a Source Naturals product, Amino Night I think, but not sure if viable from $ point of view. I always looked for a serious GH precursor because supposed positive effects of GH for liver conditions but never tried that one.

[aconita]

The issue here is not the reliability since I doubt there are "fakes" around, the real problem is that it seems in Europe nobody is selling the bloody arginine pyroglutamate powder but an Italian seller at a price that asks for disgust.  

 

You are right, Source Naturals' Amino Night is another option for the already made product (the other one I am aware of is Ultimate Nutrition) but the same price issue arises.

 

I strongly refuse to pay many times more of the real cost just because of a brand and a nice bottle.

 

Those USA supplements are already more expensive than the raw ingredients as a start, once they get here in Europe the price is at least doubled...if (and not sure) you can find them! 

 

Anyway. in the meantime i wait to find AP powder here (and my lysine bag sits in the closet), if anyone of you lucky guys in USA is giving it a try and is willing to post here about the experience it would be really appreciated. 

 

[LifeisBall]

Is this safe?

[aconita]

The only concern might be in the rise of IGF-1.

 

As a growth factor it might promote cancer if in excessive levels, IGF-1 receptors are plenty in the intestine therefore intestine cancer would be the main concern, an overgrowth of intestine leading to turtle belly could be a possibility in long term use and very high levels.

 

If arginine pyroglutamate/lysine is able to rise IGF-1 levels to such a degree to cause those concerns is probably unlikely, I am not aware of any research in this direction.

 

To mildly rise GH is interesting for the not so young anymore in order to return to youthful levels or for whom has lower than normal levels in which case the above concerns should not play any role, the attempt of rising GH above normal physiological levels of course carries risks as with any other hormone and is not recommended.

 

By the way I finally just managed to get some arginine pyroglutamate and I am supplementing it, too early to report outcomes but it seems to enhance deep sleep and reduce sleep latency.

 

I'll be back as soon as I'll be able to report other noticeable effects.

[petia shap]

Hey, a little late, but do you think any of this would be recommended/safe for a teenager? (16) not doing anything bodybuilding related. Just am genuinely Interested in the subject and would be interesting to see how this would act on a "Growing" body,
Cheers

(And ofc for a 5'6 guy any growth would be nice)

 

Edited by petia shap, 29 January 2017 - 09:42 PM.

[aconita]

I think you might try, the effects aren't of a magnitude to rise concerns...but for the same reason it is unlikely to make you grow much taller either (but you never know).

 

I suspect that in order to achieve a new growth spur one needs to alter HGH levels quite substantially...

 

Another issue is there are about 100 different HGH molecular isoforms which interact in different ways to GH receptors, in other words simply achieving a rise in GH doesn't necessarily mean it is the right GH for the results one aims to.

[petia shap]

So one reason that I (assume) that it could help with growth is because there is still growth potential, and I had thought that HGH would enhance/improve it.

What you said about "alter HGH levels quite substantially." how much of an excessive dosages do you mean?

 

And I'm assuming that to see which HGH Isoforms would properly interact with the GH-receptors I'd need to try them all(?) 

 

Edited by petia shap, 30 January 2017 - 10:42 AM.

[aconita]

Hormones are a delicate subject, while we might assume it would be relatively safe to restore youthful levels in older persons to alter physiological levels in a teenager or young person in order to correct growth impairment is a quite different matter that in my opinion is better taken care of by an endocrinologist with all the tests and checks along the way.

 

Since there is only one study about the arginine pyroglutamate/lysine effects and that study limits the findings to a generic HGH values rise without testing which kind of physiological effects that involve isn't possible to state if it will trigger growth or not, we might assume it will, at least to a certain extent, but we really don't know.

 

You might try, it would be an experiment...but time passes by and results takes time to show...the main risk is by the time you find it doesn't deliver the desired results is too late for other interventions which have been proven effective, which, AFAIK, is direct exogenous HGH therapy.

 

MK-677 has been used in clinical studies on children affected by dwarfism with good results and negligible side effects but is not a drug (yet) therefore unlikely to be prescribed or suggested by any endocrinologist, the do your own experiment with it might be kind  of risky and sincerely I don't feel like to recommend it.

[petia shap]

So first of all, looking at what you said about "restoring youth levels" Seeing as i'm still in the 'Tween' age, My Somatostatin levels will be a lot lower,
So theoretically if the correct HGH receptors will be engaged, My HGH levels will be sky high, which would probably capitalize on the hight growth potentials,

As for the time desire of growth, and no results showing. I'm at a hight with which i'm comfortable, and i'd be fine living my life at this hight, (doubt hight will effect my life too significantly,) 
So testing this out could potentially lead to a healthier life/lifestyle, and that's a long term factor, that can me taken in mind. 

Do you still think that going to a Endocrinologist would be the most optimal way to go?

[aconita]

Do you still think that going to a Endocrinologist would be the most optimal way to go?

 

Yes, I do.

 

While it is perfectly possible that enhancing HGH at the appropriate amount will lead to some growth in your case you have to be aware that something triggering such profound effects doesn't come without potentially undesirable risks.

 

For example one of the main mechanism of action of HGH is the rise of IGF1 which is an extremely powerful growth factor, the majority of IGF1 receptors are in the guts, an over-expression of IGF1 might lead to abnormal intestine growth possibly even turning into cancer (besides developing a big belly) .

 

All internal organs are effected by IGF1 too possibly leading to their overgrowth which is something you don't really want, believe me.

 

Those are just simple basic examples of why it would be much wiser to seek the help of an endocrinologist (and possibly a good one) in pursuing your goal, keeping things in check periodically by a specialist will at least reduce the chances of unpleasant outcomes or delusions.

[petia shap]

Alright, fair enough, 

Cheers for looking out!

[YOLF]

Aconita, any updates on how APG worked out?

[aconita]

Well.... after a while on it I have to say that if there is an effect it is mild at best, not comparable to MK677 for sure.

 

I don't have any blood tests before and after to say so but with MK677 I can tell my HG is up just by feelings and, surprise, after few months dose adjustment by feelings my blood test for IGF1 is 386 (upper limit for my age 388), to me that means my feelings aren't so bad judgement measure after all.

 

Maybe APL in young subjects has a different outcome (the mentioned study has been performed on people in their 20's). 

[PeaceAndProsperity]

So first of all, looking at what you said about "restoring youth levels" Seeing as i'm still in the 'Tween' age

"Preadolescence, also known as pre-teen or tween, is a stage of human development following early childhood and preceding adolescence.^[1] It commonly ends with the beginning of puberty,^[2] but may also be defined as ending with the start of the teenage years.^[3] For example, dictionary definitions generally designate it as 10–13 years.^[4]"

^{Are you THAT young?}

 

^{Your best bet for increasing height is to take an estrogen antagonist. Forget growth hormone or anything else, all you need to do is to prevent your growth plates from closing. Aromatase inhibitors will work just as well as estrogen receptor antagonist, maybe even better. Just go buy aromasin from a research chemical website but make sure to take a very tiny dosage as they're often overdosed. Estrogen receptor antagonists have much more serious side-effects than aromatase inhibitors.}

 

^{170-180cm of height has been tall for a very large part of human existence. Anything over 180cm will lead to a plethora of downsides. The only upsides are social and sexual, but if that is what your life is about then your life is pretty insignificant.}

 

[meatsauce]

ipamoerlin + mod grf 1-29 aint gona be beat in terms of effectiveness, side effects, and adhering to the natural way we release growth hormone.

[YOLF]

Well, for the minor, I'd stay away from the research chems unless a doc gives them to you. Lots of stuff the doc can give you for height, but the longest lived, slowest aging people are generally shorter. Do you want to give that up? Aromatase inhibitors also have side effects. I wouldn't take them lightly.

 

As for the numbers, I'd be hoping to achieve figures outside of those for my age range. There are some simple, and extremely overpriced, yet effective supplements for increasing HGH that will do just that and they shouldn't be too hard to replicate for home use.

Edited by YOLF, 26 July 2017 - 04:00 AM.

[Multivitz]

Boron, yet again. Steer clear of GMO so that includes wheat, carrots, etc.
Boron twice a week and fresh veg. Make sure there's zinc molybdenum and vanadium in their diet. Some fats too. K2 and D3 are optional, natural vit E and C can help. Phosphatidyl Choline helped me grow, but it will demand extra zinc! Molybdenum will reduce zinc rage!
Easy peezee
Boron, yet again. Steer clear of GMO

Edited by Multivitz, 30 September 2017 - 08:19 AM.

[Daniel Cooper]

Ok ok ..... we get it.  No matter what is wrong with you, boron and iodine.   Or sometimes just boron.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Daniel Cooper, 30 September 2017 - 02:25 PM.

[Multivitz]

I don't think you get it Dan. It sounds like you are one of those who think they can't be improved by it.
You'd certainly change your tune if your child developed Autism, or your life long love got breast cancer, or you couldn't put yourself in someone else's shoes because you kept making pointless jokes to make yourself feel better.

[Rocket]

Isn't iodine dangerous to the thyroid over time???

[aconita]

No but might depend....

 

Not this the right thread to discuss it anyway,