258 replies to this topic

[Coffeee]

noticced nothing

[Real Mushrooms]

noticced nothing

 

brand?

[EFTANG]

I've been taking 2g of Lions Mane daily for these past few days, and I can't say I noticed anything. Maybe it makes me drowsy, which is actually detrimental, but I haven't noticed any positive effects. Maybe it's an adaptogen? Whatever it is, I'll finish the bottle and find either another source, or just ditch it completely. Bummer.

 

Understandable, because this brand is not extracted and 'micronized' is just nonsense.

 

This will only stimulate your bowel movements. Aloha is known to deceive its customers by showing them lab reports they a) created themselves, and which are b) based on extracted versions of the product they are selling their customers.

 

In other words the product you get is not the same as the product tested. A reliable supplier will have third-party test reports, preferably.

 

If they would list the active ingredients on the supplement label you can at least assume that it is an extract and it will have at least some health effect.

If they don't guarantee any bioactives you can assume it is non-extracted and will not be able to achieve noteworthy effects.

 

No normal seller would 'forget' to mention a noteworthy level of bioactives if they had such a product; it is the best marketing there is I'd say. 

 

A great guide giving objective information about how to value and choose mushroom supplements is  "What you should know before buying mushroom supplements" (just Google)

 

The NGF stimulating constituents in Lions Mane can not be determined using standard HPLC analysis because there is no reference material available, unfortunately.

The best extract IMO would be a mix of Lions Mane mycelia and fruiting body, because each contains part of the NGF growth-promotors. Hot water extracted !

Hope this is useful for you!!

[Busyboy]

I've been taking 2g of Lions Mane daily for these past few days, and I can't say I noticed anything. Maybe it makes me drowsy, which is actually detrimental, but I haven't noticed any positive effects. Maybe it's an adaptogen? Whatever it is, I'll finish the bottle and find either another source, or just ditch it completely. Bummer.

Understandable, because this brand is not extracted and 'micronized' is just nonsense.

This will only stimulate your bowel movements. Aloha is known to deceive its customers by showing them lab reports they a) created themselves, and which are b) based on extracted versions of the product they are selling their customers.

In other words the product you get is not the same as the product tested. A reliable supplier will have third-party test reports, preferably.

If they would list the active ingredients on the supplement label you can at least assume that it is an extract and it will have at least some health effect.
If they don't guarantee any bioactives you can assume it is non-extracted and will not be able to achieve noteworthy effects.

No normal seller would 'forget' to mention a noteworthy level of bioactives if they had such a product; it is the best marketing there is I'd say.

A great guide giving objective information about how to value and choose mushroom supplements is "What you should know before buying mushroom supplements" (just Google)

The NGF stimulating constituents in Lions Mane can not be determined using standard HPLC analysis because there is no reference material available, unfortunately.
The best extract IMO would be a mix of Lions Mane mycelia and fruiting body, because each contains part of the NGF growth-promotors. Hot water extracted !
Hope this is useful for you!!

Any brand you can recommend? Thanks for the information!

[EFTANG]

I recommend Oriveda. Spoke to their sales team a few weeks ago and they will be updating their current fruiting body extract to a mixed mycelium / fruiting body extract in a few months. Their supplier is growing the mycelium in liquid media, which is excellent!

[Baten]

I'm not convinced about Oriveda's quality personally.

[Adaptogen]

I recommend Oriveda. Spoke to their sales team a few weeks ago and they will be updating their current fruiting body extract to a mixed mycelium / fruiting body extract in a few months. Their supplier is growing the mycelium in liquid media, which is excellent!

 

Your 5 posts in the past 24 hours linking to various Oriveda products seems awfully suspicious...

[EFTANG]

 

 

Your 5 posts in the past 24 hours linking to various Oriveda products seems awfully suspicious...

 

 

Oriveda has an extensive amount of research and articles available, all very relevant to the topics being discussed.

I have not linked to products ?

[Jochen]

I'm not convinced about Oriveda's quality personally.

 

can you elaborate a bit? What are the reasons you are not convinced about their quality?

Is this a general opinion or specific about their Lions mane?

[Busyboy]

I'm not convinced about Oriveda's quality personally.

can you elaborate a bit? What are the reasons you are not convinced about their quality?
Is this a general opinion or specific about their Lions mane?

That's most certainly an opinion of his, as Oriveda's quality has been proven time after time. Their Lions Mane is probably the best out there, if not the best. I ordered 180 tablets for 90$ which lasted two months, and I found a profound stimulatory effect from it, which I haven't experienced with other vendors such as Aloha, which is telling of their quality and potency. The only thing stopping me from reordering was the steep price, which I didn't seem to think was justifiable with the experience I had. Nonetheless, of you want a top quality mushroom extract, Oriveda is the way to go. At the moment, I'm very eager to try out Nammex's Lions Mane extract, as I've heard they also have a high beta-glucan ratio, for a better price.

[Baten]

 

I'm not convinced about Oriveda's quality personally.

 

can you elaborate a bit? What are the reasons you are not convinced about their quality?

Is this a general opinion or specific about their Lions mane?

 

Hi, I have not in fact tried their Lions mane. To elaborate, I wasn't impressed with their Russian-sourced shilajit, which was shipped in a little zip-lock bag and no real information on how to use it / how to dose it.

[EFTANG]

 

Hi, I have not in fact tried their Lions mane. To elaborate, I wasn't impressed with their Russian-sourced shilajit, which was shipped in a little zip-lock bag and no real information on how to use it / how to dose it.

 

 

 

You don't like their Lions Mane because you don't like their Shilajit ? Makes no sense.

 

To follow up on my previous post I again asked Oriveda about their new Lions Mane product and they said it will be available at the end of March. A 50/50 mix of fruiting body / liquid mycelium extract, 180 x 500 mg capsules. NLT 40% polysaccharides, glucan testing was underway.

 

The price would remain unchanged, so in fact it is getting cheaper because it used to be 180 x 300 mg. I'll give it a shot and keep everybody posted

[Busyboy]

Hi, I have not in fact tried their Lions mane. To elaborate, I wasn't impressed with their Russian-sourced shilajit, which was shipped in a little zip-lock bag and no real information on how to use it / how to dose it.

You don't like their Lions Mane because you don't like their Shilajit ? Makes no sense.

To follow up on my previous post I again asked Oriveda about their new Lions Mane product and they said it will be available at the end of March. A 50/50 mix of fruiting body / liquid mycelium extract, 180 x 500 mg capsules. NLT 40% polysaccharides, glucan testing was underway.

The price would remain unchanged, so in fact it is getting cheaper because it used to be 180 x 300 mg. I'll give it a shot and keep everybody posted

Looking forward to your review. I'm really tempted to try out Nammex's and Oriveda's new formulation to see which has greater benefits.

[Heisok]

 

 

Hi, I have not in fact tried their Lions mane. To elaborate, I wasn't impressed with their Russian-sourced shilajit, which was shipped in a little zip-lock bag and no real information on how to use it / how to dose it.

 

You don't like their Lions Mane because you don't like their Shilajit ? Makes no sense.

To follow up on my previous post I again asked Oriveda about their new Lions Mane product and they said it will be available at the end of March. A 50/50 mix of fruiting body / liquid mycelium extract, 180 x 500 mg capsules. NLT 40% polysaccharides, glucan testing was underway.

The price would remain unchanged, so in fact it is getting cheaper because it used to be 180 x 300 mg. I'll give it a shot and keep everybody posted

Looking forward to your review. I'm really tempted to try out Nammex's and Oriveda's new formulation to see which has greater benefits.

 

 

Thanks. I have also been considering trying Lions Mane. I am reading all threads related to it, and peoples opinions. As far as Oriveda, I recently bought some of their Shilajit. It came in a little plastic cup with a lid. There was also an extensive 2 page insert with instructions and other information. Based on my experience, I will not hesitate buying from them again if I decide to try their Lions Mane.
 

[playground]

This thread is __sooooo___ obviously being used as a marketing opportunity.

Sheep beware, you're being lead through the wrong gate.

 

You'd be better off buying the more expensive product from Fungi Perfecti.

 

The 'goodies'.. that cause the release of NGF, are located in the mycelium (the roots).

The 'fruiting body' is the actual bit you see growing out of the tree/log... doesn't contain the goodies.

 

So if you buy a mix of mycelium and fruiting body, you're buying a diluted product.

You only need the mycelium.

 

The truth destroys sales lies..... usually.

[EFTANG]

[...]

 

You'd be better off buying the more expensive product from Fungi Perfecti.

 

The 'goodies'.. that cause the release of NGF, are located in the mycelium (the roots).

The 'fruiting body' is the actual bit you see growing out of the tree/log... doesn't contain the goodies.

 

So if you buy a mix of mycelium and fruiting body, you're buying a diluted product.

You only need the mycelium.

 

The truth destroys sales lies..... usually.

 You're completely wrong. There are two active ingredients in Lion's Mane; hericinones (mainly in the fruiting body) and erinacines (mainly in the mycelium).  A mixed product gives you the best of both worlds, plus you'll have the immune modulating beta-glucans as an extra.

 

The problem is that the mycelium products that are currently for sale, such as the Fungi Perfecti brand, are all mycelium grown on grain. Meaning the final product will be rich in starch (undigested substrate) which contaminates the product.

 

Fungi Perfecti is mainly selling non-extracted products, which have a low bioavailability. See  for background. They do not specify any bioactive ingredients.

 

They also have liquid extracts, but those are per definition a bad choice: given that the main ingredient is the liquid (alcohol/water) which in itself has no bioactivity. That's usually over 95% !

The active ingredients are just diluted in the liquid, but the liquid does not improve bioavailability. Powdered extracts actually start out as liquid extracts, which are then spray dried or freeze dried. Liquid extracts are easily 20-30 times more expensive than powdered extracts, just compare the actual volume and do the math.

 

And have you ever seen a liquid extract that specifies the active ingredients ? I'm sure you haven't - and that's because the levels are below the detection limits, usually. 

 

Like you say - the truth destroys sales lies. But if you stop using common sense the truth might escape you.

[playground]

You're obviously shilling.

 

This means lies and misrepresentation.

 

You continually make assertions without references.

 

Get your references out and prove that there are goodies in the fruiting body.

And further, prove that the goodies in the fruiting body aren't negligible in quantity and effect.

 

If you read the advertising blurb on Lion's Mane product from Mushroom Matrix and Fungi Perfecti

it specifies that the NGF stimulating chemicals are in the mycelium.

 

Shills should be banned.... they deliberately mispresent, sew confusion and inflict naked lies on the unsuspecting.

 

 

 

 

 

[EFTANG]

You're obviously shilling.

 

This means lies and misrepresentation.

 

You continually make assertions without references.

 

Get your references out and prove that there are goodies in the fruiting body.

And further, prove that the goodies in the fruiting body aren't negligible in quantity and effect.

 

If you read the advertising blurb on Lion's Mane product from Mushroom Matrix and Fungi Perfecti

it specifies that the NGF stimulating chemicals are in the mycelium.

 

Shills should be banned.... they deliberately mispresent, sew confusion and inflict naked lies on the unsuspecting.

 

 

If you know how to use Google you can easily verify all the info provided in this thread. There is also something called 'common sense' and 'logic'.

 

This article is outlining the occurrence of the active ingredients in Lion's Mane, as an example.

Here's an overview of the active NGF stimulators, with the references listed behind them:

 

That same article tells you what all these constituents do in relation to the NGF.

 

I quote:

 

"The degree of activity for hericenones D was almost at the same level as the potent stimulator, epinephrine. 

Hericenones and erinacines are two natural products isolated from the fruiting body and mycelium of H. erinaceus, respectively, and most compounds exhibit the activity of promoting NGF synthesis. Hericenones and erinacines are low-molecular weight compounds that easily cross the blood–brain barrier. In a bioassay using mouse astroglial cell, the amounts of NGF secreted into the medium in the presence of erinacines were greater than for hericenones.

 

There is debate as to whether hericenones are active components stimulating biosynthesis of NGF and the recent result have shown that hericenone C, D and E did not increase NGF mRNA expression at 10–100 μg/ml in 1321 N1 cells (Mori et al. 2008).

 

Therefore, erinacines have potential as medicines for degenerative neuronal disorders such as Alzheimer’s disease and peripheral nerve regeneration. It has been reported that oral administration of erinacine A significantly increases the level of NGF in the rat locus coeruleus and hippocampus, but not in the cerebral cortex (Shimbo et al. 2005). However, the detailed mechanism by which erinacines induces NGF synthesis remains unknown. It is interesting that hericenones have been only reported in the fruiting bodies of H. erinaceus and erinacines only in the mycelia.  [...] 

Currently, fermentation is perhaps the best way to provide erinacines for further exploitation. "

 

 

You're asking me to 'prove' things. Did you ask Mushroom Matrix and Fungi Perfecti to 'prove' their 'advertising blurbs' ?

[playground]

Fungi Perfecti and Matrix Mushrooms are not shilling on this thread. You are.

Fungi Perfecti and Matrix Mushrooms are not making unsubstantiated assertions.  You are.

Do you understand how that might put you under a burden to support your statements with evidence, or not ?

 

Surely, a man with your powers of common sense and logic would have figured that, ... no ?

 

Are the numerous hints about your unwelcome shilling... registering, or not ?

 

Why can't you just pay for advertising, and be honest about your motives,

... and support the site at the same time. 

 

How's that for common sense and logic ?

Edited by playground, 25 February 2016 - 06:51 PM.

[normalizing]

vlad, it states fermentation is the best way to provide the active ingredients at the very end. so how would fermentation work, would you ferment the stuff like kombucha or what? and does any such thing exist on the market yet, like fermented lion's mane??

Edited by normalizing, 25 February 2016 - 06:55 PM.

[Real Mushrooms]

If you read the advertising blurb on Lion's Mane product from Mushroom Matrix and Fungi Perfecti

it specifies that the NGF stimulating chemicals are in the mycelium.

 

It is true that erinacines in Lions Mane mycelium has shown NGF stimulation. What these products don't tell you is that they are not pure mycelium products. Currently I know of no product that is pure lions mane mycelium. 

 

Any commercial medicinal mushroom product produced in the USA is almost always mycelium on grain. It is not mushroom.

 

This is what you are purchasing: https://www.google.c...s&tbm=isch&sa=X

 

Mycelium grown on rice or oats or sorghum. The growing substrate (rice, oats, etc) is not able to removed so it ends up in the final product, diluting the amount of amount of fungal material present. The Nammex report showed the kind of starch and active compound levels these types of products have (high starch / low actives). How much is mycelium and how much is grain is anyone's guess but the starch numbers show that the grain is definitely not being consumed by the mycelium. These testing results can easily be confirmed via a iodine starch test at home (https://www.instagra...=real_mushrooms). 

 

 

So if you buy a mix of mycelium and fruiting body, you're buying a diluted product.

You only need the mycelium.

 

This is incorrect. Just search "hericinones" in pubmed or google scholar. One of the only clinical trials I've seen involves fruiting body. https://www.dropbox....d FB-P.pdf?dl=0

 

It is by no way a diluted product. See notes above on dilution via grain. 

 

 

vlad, it states fermentation is the best way to provide the active ingredients at the very end. so how would fermentation work, would you ferment the stuff like kombucha or what? and does any such thing exist on the market yet, like fermented lion's mane??

 

By fermentation they mean liquid fermentation to create pure mycelium. Same as what Vlad mentioned in another thread about bioreactors. 

[EFTANG]

vlad, it states fermentation is the best way to provide the active ingredients at the very end. so how would fermentation work, would you ferment the stuff like kombucha or what? and does any such thing exist on the market yet, like fermented lion's mane??

 

Fermentation in this context is referring to cultivating mycelia in liquid substrate ('deep layer cultivation') in large steel tanks, identical to the way Cordyceps CS-4 is being cultivated. The advantage is that it is fast and relatively cheap, and the final product is very pure.

 

Outside of China this method is not used AFAIK, solid state cultivation is the standard here. The disadvantage of solid state cultivation (growing mycelia in grains/rice) is that the final product will contain a lot of left-over substrate, because it is impossible to separate the mycelium from the substrate. It will end up in the final product in the form of starch.

 

Currently there's no Lion's Mane product on the market containing deep layer cultivated mycelium AFAIK, but as said before, the Oriveda sales team told me a few weeks ago they're planning to launch such a product in March. (Sorry playground, 'shilling' again I guess... ?   )

[normalizing]

i thought fermentation means using fruit bodies as how you would do pickles or kimchi, i wonder if that will work and have some effect....

[playground]

Brilliant, so there's nothing here to suggest we shouldn't go for the

high quality suppliers such has Fungi Perfecti or Mushroom Matrix or Mushroom Wisdom

 

swansons vitamins sells Fungi Perfecti cheaper than the main fungi perfecti site:  fungi.com.

 

http://www.swansonvi...q?kw=Lions Mane

 

swansonvitamins also sells mushroom matrix and mushroom wisdom brands.

 

The Swanson's own brand of Lion's mane used to give me a headache, very odd.

I decided that wasn't a good sign, so i stopped taking it.

 

I have also found that checking on ebay or amazon, can sometimes lead to

a nice bargain for Lion's Mane brands.

 

How's that Vlad ?  Some helpful balance to offset your egregious shilling.  ;-)

 

You could just pay for advertising Vlad, it would be cheaper and easier than trolling threads.

Edited by playground, 26 February 2016 - 06:44 AM.

[normalizing]

you are both advertising too much. maybe have this in your private msg, over-advertise each other to death

[LongLife]

The link given in post # 52 by way of Vlad: Cordyceps CS-4 is being cultivated. This is : https://www.google.c...ts/CN104846018A, a patent and the description of their fermentation process is as follows:

There are two main methods: solid-state fermentation and liquid fermentation process in which liquid fermentation method has a short cycle, high raw material utilization, high fermentation efficiency, ease of operation, low cost, small footprint, high output, less pollution, and other characteristics, which provides a theoretical basis and practical basis for the industrial production of enzymes Cordyceps.

The patent goes on to elaborate ingredients for the cultured medium used to "grow" or reproduce the enzyme they discuss. This has been translated from Chinese to English by the way.

 

The link given by Vlad in post #48, http://www.tandfonli...501201003735556, is an article titled:

 

"Hericenones and erinacines: stimulators of nerve growth factor (NGF) biosynthesis in Hericium erinaceus" , this is interesting and reviews all previously addressed research over the subject matter up to 2009. It was published in the International Journal of Fungal Biology, Vol I Issue 2 2010. The relevant portion referring to "fermentation" is actually in the DISCUSSION section at the end of the article, last paragraph, where bio-synthetic production of the active substances is being contemplated, to wit:

 

"Biosynthesis of natural products is complex and the expression of many of the key synthase genes is affected by a number of factors. Biosynthetic studies on the cyathane skeleton, which does not follow the isoprene rule, was carried out by Ayer and co-workers in the late 1970s (Ayer et al., 1978; Kenmoku et al. 2001). However, the search for fungal cyathadiene cyclases is still in progress. The structural novelty and significant biological activities displayed by the erinacines have also made members of this family attractive targets for total synthesis. Testimony to this is found in the number and diversity of approaches that have been developed to construct these fascinating natural products (Wright and Whitehead 2000; Takano et al. 2004; Trost et al. 2005), and construction of the 5-6-7 tricyclic core of the erinacines is the key step. However, the low yield, multi-step synthetic methods restrict their commercial application. Currently, fermentation is perhaps the best way to provide erinacines for further exploitation."

 

The production herein is quite elaborate, to wit:

 

"...The fungus was cultivated by shaking at 30°C for 4 weeks; then the culture was centrifuged and the mycelia were extracted with ethanol. The extract, after concentrating the solvent, was fractionated by solvent partition between ethyl acetate and water. Repeated silica gel chromatography and HPLC of the ethyl acetate extract gave erinacines...."

 

This is obvious NOT a production method for mycelium growth but  a small batch method for experimentation BUT please note that a chromatograph was indeed used to identify the active fraction and isolate the ERINACINES from the medium culture that supported the mycelia growth.

 

FYI, in fungi terms, the "root" structure is called mycelia (mycelium) and the fruit is called the mushroom or "body" or "fruiting body". The mycelia are very delicate, fine hair like structures, and they are formed in a huge mass to sustain the fruiting body or "mushroom". The mycelia "roots" produce an array of biochemicals that can literally dissolve about anything in nature, a true biochemical laboratory. Often, on a small scale, the mycelia is nurtured and cultivated on agar medium in a super sterile environment, inside a glass petri dish or similar apparatus at a given environment. Agar has become rather expensive so alternative growth medium is used for commercial production, such as a cellulose median like rice, grains, etc. The mass of mycelium wraps around, penetrating into the medium and therefore is not separable without going through a rather lengthy expensive process and the bioreactive acids produced by the mycelia certainly dissolves a good portion of the medium or makes it degraded. This means that harvest time would include the medium as part of the overall product, the starch referred to by Vlad. This could end up NOT being a great deal of starch though. I have not seem the mycelium of Lion's Main but I have cultured mushrooms before besides collect them in the wild (like comparing night to day). 

 

The literature clearly states that hericenones is produced in the fruiting body; mushroom, as well as a small fraction of erinacines. The mycelium produces erinacines, unless I missed something, but I did not find that hericenones are also present in mycelium. Both substances have some degree of activity for producing/stimulating Nerve Growth Factor (NGF). I should mention that the article mentions other specie that also produce or stimulate NGF. 

 

I will express from experience that the growing/producing of a product such as mycelium is not  a simple task due to foreign intrusion of all sorts of life forms that take to reproducing on the same medium(s) and a large batch operation has some rather expensive equipment and overhead costs involved as well as particular temperature "windows" that must be maintained, etc. You CAN do it in your garage or kitchen but it gets very redundant and frustrating. The wife won't approve, undoubtedly. Mine didn't.

 

There would likely NOT be a market for the concentrated active factors or "standardizing" due to the expense involved. I am wondering now how stable these biochemicals actually are. But batch testing each production would give a good +- of the active components and their values by ICP analysis. I would think they would degrade in short order or need to be kept cool or cold and sold rather quickly. Hummm?

 

 

 

Edited by LongLife, 28 February 2016 - 06:03 AM.

[LongLife]

COFFEE, REAL MUSHROOMS, VLAD, BUSYBOY, BATEN, HEISOKTODAY, NORMALIZING, PLAYGROUND;

I got onto AMAZON.COM and looked up the ORIVeDA product Lion's Mane and asked the two questions as stated below. Please be informed of their answers. Apparently they may, very soon, be the supply chain to go to for obtaining a high quality product.

 

Here is the website to see the questions and answers, as I have posted them below:

 

http://www.amazon.co...623860_70668520

 

Question:

"Is this extract from the mycelium or mushroom or ? Is this fungi produced/grown in a liquid medium or on a cellulose medium (rice, grain, seeds, etc)?"

Answer:

"Good question! Right now the extract is made from wood-grown fruiting bodies (as stated on the supplement facts label - see the picture). 
Around late March / early April 2016 we'll update the current formula to a 50/50 fruiting body / mycelium extract. Keep an eye on the picture of the supplement facts label - it will be updated to reflect the new formula.
The mycelium is grown in a liquid medium (deep layer cultivation), so the final product will be free from useless starch (which is present in grain/rice-based mycelium products) and will contain both NGF-stimulating bioactives, hericenones and erinacines, next to immune modulating beta-glucans. 
This is in particular great news for nootropic enthusiasts; currently there are no pure mycelia-based products on the market. 
Right now all mycelia-containing Lion's Mane products are more or less contaminated with starch (from leftover grains/rice etc.); this can be as much as 75%!! This is not revealed on the supplement facts label. 
As a rule of thumb one can state: the cheaper the product, the more starch and the lower the value for money. see less 
By ORIVeDA on February 28, 2016"

 

* I added the quotation marks above.

It is my hope that this has been helpful to all. Ask and you shall receive? Unless our forum friend VLAD is a representative for this company, VLAD may not be shilling but actually trying to be informative as is the Spirit of this forum and as I am attempting to do also. Cheers.

 

[playground]

You've created 3 or 4 account on here.

All the same person. 

All giving positive or negative feedback in unison.

It's such an obvious school boy prank.

 

And what's sad is... you're playing 'make believe' that we don't all know.

Listen, we know what you're doing.

Please... grow up.

 

Discussion of suppliers should really be placed in the vendors threads.

Not in these threads. 

Read the rules.

 

If you want to advertise, pay for the advertising.

[normalizing]

playground may be an annoying troll but im actually kind of getting tired of the others in here who keep recommending this same company to buy from going as far as advertising through amazon now. playground is kind of ruining it with his whining, but in reality he might have a reason to be so annoying considering what i am seeing and that is constant mention of that one company. not sure, why was it so hard to just explain to us how mycelium and fruiting body work and whats useful and what not instead of mentioning companies? i doubt it was that hard but nevertheless i keep seeing company names....

[Busyboy]

Anyways... I ordered Nammex's Lion's Mane from Nootropics Depot a couple days ago, and it will arrive sometime this week. Since there's no reviews on it yet, I'll be sure to keep you all posted on my experience using it daily for 4 months.