258 replies to this topic

[lumia]

I think a major issue of sourcing in China is not one of quality, but they're looking it the wrong way. It seemed to me most of the Chinese research in this mushroom are on its gastro-protective activities, and not much on its neurotrophic effects. So, while it has large amount of Lion's Mane mycelium (houtoujun) sold as pharmaceuticals, they're invariably water extracted, and standardized for polysaccharides.

 

e.g. Houtoujun Pian, the most easily obtained Lion's Mane pharmaceutical in China (It's OTC) basically contains the extract from 1g of the mycelium, decorted in hot water twice. The dosage is 3-4 tablets t.i.d, for you reference, but that's for chronic gastritis.

[ImAjE rec]

Isn't the water extract good if you aim ngf increase? I read about the ethanol extract but how about water mycelium extract? Or steam.

[EFTANG]

The problem with the continual emphasis on what Lion's Mane does in a test tube,

is that, notoriously, it can be very difficult getting chemical X into the brain from an oral route:

 

There's 3 high hurdles to jump:

1. There's the whole issue about whether the digestive system will destroy Chemical X, or not.

2. Then there's the issue about whether Chemical X will be metabolised in some way by the liver.

3. Then there's the issue of whether Chemical X can cross the blood brain barrier.

 

Do we have any evidence that the chemical goodies in Lion's Mane can jump these 3 hurdles ?

To the best of my knowledge... there is no evidence of this.

 

So not only is there no evidence of Lion's Mane having a positive effect on human cognition.

There's no evidence that Lion's Mane even arrives at the party.

 

However, if someone has such evidence... please post it here. 

The metabolic system will not destroy the bioactives - otherwise there wouldn't be any noteworthy effect. These positive effects have been described in research. The NGF-stimulators are also not metabolized by the liver - they cross the blood-brain barrier. Read the following articles (and there are many more).

 

In this article (The Inducer of the Synthesis of Nerve Growth Factor - introduction) it is summed up nicely : 

 

"NGF is a protein, it usually cannot pass through the blood-brain barrier. Recently, researchers have targeted on the substances that could pass through the blood-brain barrier and induce NGF synthesis in the brain. Some compounds with lower molecular weight have been found to have such bioactivity. Among these bioactive compounds, hericenones and erinacines, which were isolated from an edible mushroom called as Lion’s Mane (Hericium erinaceus), showed remarkable activity of stimulating the synthesis of NGF."

 

In this article (Hericenones and erinacines: stimulators of nerve growth factor (NGF) biosynthesis in Hericium erinaceus  - page 94) it's also stated explicitly:

 

"Hericenones and erinacines are low-molecular weight compounds that easily cross the blood–brain barrier. "

 

To me it seems clear that taking Lion's Mane in order to reduce cognitive decline (e.g. due to age) seems very worthwhile. On top of that you will benefit from the immune normalizing potential of Lion's Mane due to the presence of beta-glucans. The immune system also declines with age. In short, I think Lion's Mane can help to limit the negative effects of aging.

 

However, all Lion's Mane supplements currently available are either non-extracted (so mostly useless because we cannot digest them) or extracts which are either based on the fruiting body (so they will lack the most important NGF-stimulators, the Erinacines, which are mainly found in the mycelium) or based on solid state-cultivated mycelium (which is usually not extracted --meaning it will have low bioavailability-- and contains significant amounts of undigested grains/rice). 

 

So, the only remaining problem so far is to find a reliable Lion's Mane supplement that offers all NGF stimulators in a bioavailable form (meaning: extracted) and is free from starch or other useless stuff.

[ImAjE rec]

I've found a seller from China who sells whole mushroom 10:1 extract ethanol,cold water extraction,saying the mushroom is grew on wood at a relatevly good price too. I don't know how trustworthy is but i'm willing to give it a try.

[EFTANG]

I've found a seller from China who sells whole mushroom 10:1 extract ethanol,cold water extraction,saying the mushroom is grew on wood at a relatevly good price too. I don't know how trustworthy is but i'm willing to give it a try.

10:1 means it's dried only! Lion's Mane fruiting bodies are >90% water. Don't be fooled.

 

Ask for detailed beta-glucan / polysaccharide percentages, a COA of a third party lab. The statements sound fishy to me. Cold water extraction doesn't work, it will not 'melt' the chitinous cell-structure, only heat can do that. That's basic science. There are plenty of good quality fruiting body extracts on the market with good and verifiable specifications, don't look at the lowest price only. 

 

And what about mycelium ? That is the main source of erinacines, which is the most interesting NGF-stimulating ingredient. 

 

The bottom line is don't expect good quality for little money, even in China good quality extracts are never cheap. Extraction requires very high investments in facilities and equipment, also in China. Most of these 'cheap' suppliers are actually producing herbs, and to make an extra buck start adding mushrooms to their product lineup, using the same setup as they use for their herbal products. But mushrooms are very different from herbs so this will never yield a high quality product

[ImAjE rec]

Well it's also an ethanol exteact + whole mushroom means mycelium also.why polysaccharides when hericenones and erenacines increase ngf. Also i found at a seller from uk a 30:1 steam extraction from fruiting body only and he says it has 95% polysaccharides,what you think about that? Also ethanol extraction sounds promising at increasing ngf. Also i don't want to buy just a fruiting body extraction as it's not promising at increasing ngf.

[EFTANG]

Well it's also an ethanol exteact + whole mushroom means mycelium also.why polysaccharides when hericenones and erenacines increase ngf. Also i found at a seller from uk a 30:1 steam extraction from fruiting body only and he says it has 95% polysaccharides,what you think about that? Also ethanol extraction sounds promising at increasing ngf. Also i don't want to buy just a fruiting body extraction as it's not promising at increasing ngf.

 

 

Just because someone claims something doesn't make it true. Whole mushroom does not mean incl. mycelium. How to separate the mycelium from the wood ? Please explain....  

Unless statements such as 10:1 or 30:1 or whatever are backed up by a COA that lists the bioactives they're useless because these statements cannot be verified. That's why you should ask for  a third party COA, preferable issued by a US-based lab, (not being Atlas Bioscience). 

 

95% polysaccharides is impossible unless useless sugars such as dextrin / maltitol have been added (and that happens often). That being said, not polysaccharides in general but beta-glucans (= bioactive polysaccharides) are important bioactives, and they can be tested easily.

 

The fact that with the exception of Real Mushrooms and Oriveda nobody is actually testing for beta-glucans is a clear signal: there's probably very little to test so better leave it vague. Ethanol extraction is impossible if a powdered extract is your target. It's oily.

 

With all due respect, I think you should start reading this whole thread first, before making more comments. Most of these things have been covered. 

[ImAjE rec]

Just contradictions about different people opinions,no clear verdict yet.

[Real Mushrooms]

Never heard of cold water extraction. That makes no sense.

 

95% polysaccharides is a pretty outrageous statement and frankly useless. Polysaccharide numbers are completely worthless as they as easily spiked with starch (grain, dextrin, maltodextrin, etc).

 

If you do end up getting something from an unknown supplier, the easiest thing you can do is run an iodine starch test on it like this (https://www.instagra...=real_mushrooms). Search youtube for "iodine starch test" to learn more but it's a simple thing you can do at home to test for starch. That will give you the most basic indicator of quality as most products will fail this.

 

Here's a teaser for you guys: http://www.realmushr...-mycleium-1.jpg

 

It will take a while to make it into products but we've got pure liquid culture lions mane mycelium =)

Edited by Real Mushrooms, 01 April 2016 - 04:08 PM.

[EFTANG]

[...]

So, the only remaining problem so far is to find a reliable Lion's Mane supplement that offers all NGF stimulators in a bioavailable form (meaning: extracted) and is free from starch or other useless stuff.

[...]

 

 

Update, just received the news that oriveda will introduce their 50/50 Lion's Mane extract (fruiting body + fermented liquid mycelium) 2 weeks from now for a lower price than their current offering; $ 69.95 p/180 capsules.

 

They are already accepting and shipping bulk orders (1 kg or more) 

[LongLife]

Vlad:

It looks like Oriveda is communicating with those who contacted them earlier on. I was not willing to wait for them so I obtained some various products from sources and have been boiling it and drinking it with my coffee/cocoa/coconut oil brew in the mornings.I am blessed because Peru produces and export a lot of high quality coffee, cocoa & coconut oil:-)

 

I ordered several kilos of mycelium impregnated wood plugs off eBay & Amazon.com. That is coming now, so I will be off to the Andean region with my portable drill where the weather is moist and cool. 

 

The mycelium, for best results, does need to be grown on a liquid/jello like substrate to reduce the starch. This has been beaten to death already on these threads bout Lion's Mane. I have not made it over to the regional university to look at their chromatography, spectrometer' and whatever else they have for isolating and identifying alkaloids.

 

Time for a group buy of a few keys from Oriveda. Who is interested here besides me?

[LongLife]

Never heard of cold water extraction. That makes no sense.

 

95% polysaccharides is a pretty outrageous statement and frankly useless. Polysaccharide numbers are completely worthless as they as easily spiked with starch (grain, dextrin, maltodextrin, etc).

 

If you do end up getting something from an unknown supplier, the easiest thing you can do is run an iodine starch test on it like this (https://www.instagra...=real_mushrooms). Search youtube for "iodine starch test" to learn more but it's a simple thing you can do at home to test for starch. That will give you the most basic indicator of quality as most products will fail this.

 

Here's a teaser for you guys: http://www.realmushr...-mycleium-1.jpg

 

It will take a while to make it into products but we've got pure liquid culture lions mane mycelium =)

 

REAL MUSHROOMS:

Can you believe that? Cold water extraction? Good grief!

 

95% polysacharides = left over mycelium substrate such as rice, saw dust and bran. This would make a great fiber supplement if it were not so expensive.

 

IMHO, it is not worth the cost of the iodine to test these products that make such foolish babelings. Seriously.

[normalizing]

not interested in capsules, and why does it have to be 180 of them who knows but it would sound better if its just the extract sold

[playground]

 

[...]

So, the only remaining problem so far is to find a reliable Lion's Mane supplement that offers all NGF stimulators in a bioavailable form (meaning: extracted) and is free from starch or other useless stuff.

[...]

 

 

Update, just received the news that oriveda will introduce their 50/50 Lion's Mane extract (fruiting body + fermented liquid mycelium) 2 weeks from now for a lower price than their current offering; $ 69.95 p/180 capsules.

 

They are already accepting and shipping bulk orders (1 kg or more) 

 

 

 

Some good posts there Vlad.  :-)

I want to focus you on this point....

There's no evidence that Lion's mane does *anything* for Human cognition via supplements.

 

The only evidence ... comes from an old people's home in Japan. 

...where supplementation with lions mane made the old ladies easier to control and 'apparently' calmer.

Or so the unreplicated, unconfirmed research said.

 

This 'old people's home' evidence was produced ...way before... the mass of the test tube research.

So.. the question has to be asked.. why was the old people's home research conducted ?

What as the rationale for conducting that research ?

On what basis ? Where was the evidence ?

Why has no one managed to replicate that research ?

Why has that result never been confirmed ?

 

It's fast looking like it's been a scam from the beginning.

Everyone's on board for the Lion's Mane ride of hope.

But it's only hope.. there's no evidence. 

After these years and all this exposure, there really should be evidence now.

 

Ask yourself, where is the evidence ?

Basically, there is only test tube evidence.

There are no studies showing that dementing patients given daily Lion's mane have their symptoms get better

or the progress of their disease slows down.  (If you want something to slow down or reverse Alzhemier's,

by the way, seek out the research on coconut oil)

Similarly, there are no studies showing that young healthy subjects

taking Lions mane for 6 months or 1 year, improve their SAT scores, or Wechsler scale scores..etc.

 

After all these years, and all this exposure, if someone had found positive results they'd have

been published by now. The absence of such evidence is a big RED FLAG.

 

The core belief is suspect at best, and a barefaced scam at worst.

Basically there's no credible evidence that taking the supplements will increase the NGF in your head.

But there's lots of evidence it will reduce the money in your wallet.

 

 

 

[normalizing]

i finally used the real mushrooms lion mane's extract powder which claimed less than 3% starch and at least 30% beta glucans but zero mention of active principals present so i assume they didnt test for those and its unclear if there are any at all. anyway, after 2 weeks regular use nothing much except when mixed with coffee or tea, it was giving a nice libido effect. not sure if thats really related to lion mane itself or just the combo of stimulants adding to it but thats all i can note from 2 weeks regular use of the stuff.

conclusion, kind of useless unless you mix it with stimulants, it adds to the effect somehow and might or might not give you some aphrodisia.

[Real Mushrooms]

i finally used the real mushrooms lion mane's extract powder which claimed less than 3% starch and at least 30% beta glucans but zero mention of active principals present so i assume they didnt test for those and its unclear if there are any at all. anyway, after 2 weeks regular use nothing much except when mixed with coffee or tea, it was giving a nice libido effect. not sure if thats really related to lion mane itself or just the combo of stimulants adding to it but thats all i can note from 2 weeks regular use of the stuff.

conclusion, kind of useless unless you mix it with stimulants, it adds to the effect somehow and might or might not give you some aphrodisia.

 

If you are referring to hericenones and erinacines, there are no tests to measure them. Beta-glucans are a primary active compound in mushrooms.

 

Adaptogens, like medicinal mushrooms, work over time and the effects are hard to quantify. They also effect people differently. 

 

For example, if you're looking for NGF stimulation with lions mane, how would you know whether it's happening or not? how do you quantify something like that?

[Junk Master]

Instead of all this arguing about quality/brand, I'd love to hear a few anecdotal accounts of Lion's Mane being worth all the attention/discussion.

[Busyboy]

Yeah, I've been taking Nammex's Lions Mane extract for almost 6 weeks now, and no noticeable effects to report. I think I'm actually less articulate while taking it during the day, but that can easily be placebo. However, when I take more than 3g before sleep, I have very vivid dreams which almost always resulted in nightmares that kept me up for hours, so I guess it's doing something lol.

Edited by Busyboy, 28 April 2016 - 01:59 PM.

[normalizing]

 

i finally used the real mushrooms lion mane's extract powder which claimed less than 3% starch and at least 30% beta glucans but zero mention of active principals present so i assume they didnt test for those and its unclear if there are any at all. anyway, after 2 weeks regular use nothing much except when mixed with coffee or tea, it was giving a nice libido effect. not sure if thats really related to lion mane itself or just the combo of stimulants adding to it but thats all i can note from 2 weeks regular use of the stuff.

conclusion, kind of useless unless you mix it with stimulants, it adds to the effect somehow and might or might not give you some aphrodisia.

 

If you are referring to hericenones and erinacines, there are no tests to measure them. Beta-glucans are a primary active compound in mushrooms.

 

Adaptogens, like medicinal mushrooms, work over time and the effects are hard to quantify. They also effect people differently. 

 

For example, if you're looking for NGF stimulation with lions mane, how would you know whether it's happening or not? how do you quantify something like that?

 

 

 

well compared to things that do not induce NGF things that supposedly do induce should be felt somehow even the slightest yes? i mean, ive had herbs that work 1 day from taking them, but the idea of taking something got 1 year to work is ridiculous. NGF is primary associated with antidepressive effect in most studies so that should be the one thing to look for, plus of course the better concentration and memory.

 

anyway i havent given up on this yet, i might try different brands to compare when i have the time but the idea of taking it for extended periods of time with a hope of doing anything is one of the sneakiest marketing techniques there are. if something doesnt have the potency of working right away, then its useless to invest in such thing. hell, even basic food items work right away either giving you energy or concentration depending on diet, but some herbal stuff doesnt? thats a bummer.

 

[Busyboy]

I just dosed 3g again last night, and once again experienced vivid dreams. Positive my memory was sharper today, as I remembered little insignificant things with ease. Looks like I'll dose 3g when needed, otherwise I'll stick to 1g daily.

[normalizing]

so where did you get the nammex version?

[Busyboy]

so where did you get the nammex version?

RealMushrooms extracts are Nammex's. Dose 3g before bed and let me know your experience.

[normalizing]

oh so you got realmushrooms one with the silly lion on the cover? well, i finished it and i tried it before bed but it was getting me too excited to sleep. i just did it early in the day usually and as i said, nothing special except potentiates stimulants like coffee. try that instead of gulping it before bed....

[Busyboy]

oh so you got realmushrooms one with the silly lion on the cover? well, i finished it and i tried it before bed but it was getting me too excited to sleep. i just did it early in the day usually and as i said, nothing special except potentiates stimulants like coffee. try that instead of gulping it before bed....

No, I ordered mine from Nootropics Depot, but both RS and ND source from Nammex. And I haven't noticed any stimulant effects from Lions Mane, dosing before bed or in the morning. Hmm

[LongLife]

BUSYBOY & NORMALIZING:

 

I posted here a few weeks back. I am reporting back now. I had obtained Lion's Mane (hereafter "LM") last May (2015) and have not opened it; whole mushroom powder, which we know is not much of a NGF synthesiser as the mycelium. I found a 50 gram bag and use it all via one gram x 2 a day dosing for three weeks. Eyeballing a teaspoon of LM and adding it to my regular zoom mix of instant coffee+cocoa+stevia+coconut oil+B12 (Methycobalamine)+ real raw cream+L-Theonine. This is my typical early morning zoom mix and pick-it-up late afternoon drink.

 

The LM powder dissolves very nicely; I'm in love. I really get tight when I mix in the L-Theonine since it just sits there and I have to really work it to breakup the clumps and stir like mad to get it into solution before adding the tablespoon of coconut oil.

 

About ten days into taking the Lion's Mane I ran out of L-Theonine. I had expectations that the coffee would jilt me, as it used to do without having the L-Theonine. I was pleasantly surprised to find that the coffee had no jittery effect having the LM in it. I also noted that when I eat sweet potato at breakfast and have just coffee alone, I perspire heavily after 15 minutes. I have tried many combinations and nothing works. So a few days I unfortunately got twisted on my routine and had the coffee zoom mix with breakfast without any perspiration effect. Wow, happy.

 

So what? With Lion's Mane I experienced NO perspiration when consuming sweet potato and drinking coffee together, in addition NO jittery coffee feeling. On my last few days of LM, I did some zoom mix around bedtime as I planned to stay up reading and writing. I noticed that the zoom mix did not keep me up going for hours in bed; observing the ceiling while sleepless in bed. I was able to fall asleep in minutes.

 

I went hunting in some boxes and found some Reishi and Lion's Mane. I went to Examine.com and read up (why did I buy these?) and found that they compliment one another and the Reishi has multiple benefits that are not provided by LM. I used the two of these in a 1:1 ratio with the zoom mix for a week. I felt good, rested and a bit of added energy flow.

 

A friend came from the States and brought me Cordyceps and more LM as a gift. After reading up on Reishi (Ganoderma lucidum) and Cordyceps sinensis, I just made up an additive batch of the three at 1:2:1 of the LM, Reishi, Cordycep. I have been using this as my addition to the zoom mix two times a day now. At bed time I have been drinking these three mushroom powders with only the stevia and coconut oil. The coconut oil enhances cognition as well as metabolize components in the mushroom powders. The stevia cuts the taste, which is not bad but a bit stronger than I like. I have been doing this mix for a week now. I notice no lucid dreams. I feel better, as "improved".

 

The Reishe is a mix of mushroom and mycelium while the Cordycep is mushroom. So I am doing 3 grams of LM & Cordycep ech a day + 6 grams of Reishi a day. I have no itching, I feel more energy, I feel more alert; notably, although nothing to write home about. I enjoy not having the jitters and although I still space my zoom mix from my sweet potato, I am cognizant that if I get in a time crunch I can have the two together without perspiring...as if my blood pressure suddenly went too high for a while. 

 

I am normal weight, over age 60, normal HDL, low LDL, active, no Television, no soft carbohydrates at all, blood pressure normal, no degenerative diseases, no glucose problem, I wear glasses for reading. I have no sugars except tropical fruits (refrain from grapes), blood type AB positive. 

 

I will go back to using only the LM in June after indulging in my present batch of mushroom powders. I will then continue to dose 1 gram x 3 a day of LM and maybe after ten days increase the night time dose to 2 grams to see if there are any itching or lucid dreams. Itching will probably not occur with the LM product that I have available. I will see about obtaining the mycelium extract of LM soon. (This has become expensive.)

 

Oh, BTW, my friend brought me Reishi, Lion's Mane and Turkey Tail mycelium impregnated oak dowel "plugs" from Oregon (see eBay). So I will be inoculating some trees here so that by Christmas I will have a small crop of fresh material. From that I will grow mycelium in a jell base from the LM. Not certain yet about the Reishi and Turkey Tail; more reading up to do.

 

In synthesis; the LM has worked some for me. Not having any mycelium I have no regrets about no probable NGF activation. I know that I will be obtaining mycelium sometime soon, therefore when I do get that I will be reporting back here. :-)

 

Upon reading the latest posts, my recommendations:

1. Eat soups and many vegetables, eliminate carbohydrates and sugars (same thing, correct), eat liver once a week and fatty fish three times a week minimum. Use absolutely NO cooking oils at all, just broil/boil with garlic. Have three to seven avocados a week and 2 to 4 SOFT boiled eggs a day. Have juice in the morning (pineapple with papaya) with two or more heaping tablespoons per person of ground flaxseed, fresh ground if you have a blender...keep very cold.

 

Exercise, even if it is lifting, holding and dropping your legs down while watching the TV. Any physical improvement will help these nutritional fats, listed above, to mobilize the bad negative things lurking in the blood stream, liver and brain. Get lecithin and use that generously. Start small and work up to five or more grams a day but not exceeding 7 grams a day unless your larger or very larger body type. best to NOT over do it. Have two spoons of apple cider vinegar in the morning upon opening your eyes.  Read up on lecithin, you will use it forever.

 

2. Get the body weight down and before this stuff, clean the colon out for a week before starting anything else. THEN start experimenting with NGF simulators like Lion's Mane. When the body is functioning well and is clean, then the effects will be easily felt from the mushrooms as well as other supplemental inputs. OTHERWISE, your economy will be in vain, throwing money away due to poor bodily function and little utility. IMHO.

Edited by LongLife, 03 May 2016 - 05:58 AM.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

For me it was antidepressive and made my senses more vivid in the first 3 days, also gave itching, but then it didn't give any noticeable effects onward. 

If the tolerance builds up so quick then I wouldn't waste my time with it. If it's about product purity then I would buy it if I could find one with a higher purity.

[Busyboy]

For me it was antidepressive and made my senses more vivid in the first 3 days, also gave itching, but then it didn't give any noticeable effects onward.
If the tolerance builds up so quick then I wouldn't waste my time with it. If it's about product purity then I would buy it if I could find one with a higher purity.

Yeah, when I first started taking Lions Mine I also noticed anti-depressive effects. But once I started noticing that my verbal articulation nose dived, I began dosing before bed and that seems to be doing well, at least in the dreaming aspect. And I highly doubt you experienced tolerance, because this is an adaptogen and needs to be taken for consecutive weeks to notice improvements. Maybe you experienced placebo?

[normalizing]

i dont think its worth the investment long term but as you guys wish

[PeaceAndProsperity]

 

For me it was antidepressive and made my senses more vivid in the first 3 days, also gave itching, but then it didn't give any noticeable effects onward.
If the tolerance builds up so quick then I wouldn't waste my time with it. If it's about product purity then I would buy it if I could find one with a higher purity.

Yeah, when I first started taking Lions Mine I also noticed anti-depressive effects. But once I started noticing that my verbal articulation nose dived, I began dosing before bed and that seems to be doing well, at least in the dreaming aspect. And I highly doubt you experienced tolerance, because this is an adaptogen and needs to be taken for consecutive weeks to notice improvements. Maybe you experienced placebo?

 

It certainly was not a placebo experience I had. The product was Swanson's "Full Spectrum Lion's Mane" product, and Swanson is known for selling cheap but also poor quality products that they've had stored on their shelves for a long time.

Lion's Mane is not cheap as a supplement and I don't think the effects justify its purchase.

 

As for "adaptogens," I don't know about them. If something in Lion's Mane binds to receptors with a high enough affinity and for a sustained duration then it will lead to receptor desensitization, and thus a loss of efficacy after a while. It is not abnormal that desensitization occurs within 3 days for some drugs.

 

I simply made the purchase as a test, because I like testing psychoactive supplements.

[Real Mushrooms]

The product was Swanson's "Full Spectrum Lion's Mane" product, and Swanson is known for selling cheap but also poor quality products that they've had stored on their shelves for a long time.

Lion's Mane is not cheap as a supplement and I don't think the effects justify its purchase.

 

I'm confused by your statements but the supplements panel states "mycelium biomass" so the product is primarily grain.