38 replies to this topic

[oilfieldpilot]

Is DMAE not all what it's cracked up to be?

What's the truth about DMAE?
IS it safe to take or not? [huh]


thanks!
-ofp

[oilfieldpilot]

thanks for the insomnia tip; I added the l-theanine and have curbed a 30+yr chronic insom problem.

I have read posts; here and elsewhere. I'm keeping it shelved until I feel otherwise.
So far it's got too many potential side effects and usage problems; the other noo's don't seem to have , such as pir.
(So why is DMAE considered a noo? then...) or is it?

oh well, what' eva

[Pablo M]

(So why is DMAE considered a noo? then...) or is it?

I think DMAE's nootropic effects would be due to the fact that it raises acetylcholine levels in the brain. But others things like GPC do this better. Never tried Deaner but I do take centrophenoxine and it seems to get the job done.

[oilfieldpilot]

Thanks for the info...I guess i'll hold off if no one else seems impressed with it either.

I agree A-GPC is essential; it's has made a great difference in my stack

[rfarris]

I can't remember the details, but DMAE is sort of the backwards cousin in the family of A-GPC, CDP choline, and centrophenoxine; let alone Hup-A and galantamine. All of those are far more effective, and generally far more expensive, except for possibly Hup-A.

I'm pretty sure that Da would say that DMAE, even if it was required to take ten times as much, it would still make financially more sense. In my case I can afford all of those other things, so to hell with it.

[oilfieldpilot]

That's essentially what I've been told/ read/ heard, etc...
Yes, it's very cheap...comparitavely

But heck I got nothing else to throw the dirty green stuff at, so I do the same...and get most of the other stuff instead... my 2 bottles are still unopened, prob remain so. I could alway feed it to the jetty cats!

RFarris: do you take galantmine too? if so, what for and what have you noticed it does for you?
I'm asking b/c I participated in a small test study for it.

-ofp

[rfarris]

RFarris: do you take galantmine too? if so, what for and what have you noticed it does for you?
I'm asking b/c I participated in a small  test study for it.

I haven't added galantamine into my stack, but it's on my list. I also take hup-a, so I'm interested in adding 4mg of galantamine because of the claim that it modulates the nicotinic receptors. I don't have any idea what that means, but I want to find out!

[ozone]

DMAE should not be taken if you are taking choline. And if you are into nootropics, then you are likely taking choline. Why should it not be taken? Two reasons:
1. It has the same effect as choline supplementation; and
2. It will counteract your choline supplementation if you are already taking some

As for glutamine, I used to take a lot of it. But... I don't anymore because I read several studies that said (1) large doses don't really do that much for you; yes, some is good, but the doses recommended (3g/day) are just too much; (2) and the main reason for stopping taking it was... I can't really recall. But it was some really bad mental long term side effect. And I kid you not about that.

[oilfieldpilot]

....gads, thanks for the info on glutamine....
I don't take it...but won't now in the future if I considered it.

[rfarris]

1. It has the same effect as choline supplementation; and
2. It will counteract your choline supplementation if you are already taking some

Help me out here. If DMAE has the same effect as choline, then how can it "counteract" choline? Wouldn't it add to the effect?

[ozone]

[quote]1. It has the same effect as choline supplementation; and
2. It will counteract your choline supplementation if you are already taking some
[/quote]
Help me out here. If DMAE has the same effect as choline, then how can it "counteract" choline? Wouldn't it add to the effect?[/quote]

I've done a lot of research (well digging through posts and articles) on various supplements. Unless I condense the "bottom line summary" into a sentance or two, a year down the road I will forget what the bottom line is. Regarding DMAE, in my notes it's been about a year since I researched it. The two points I mentioned are what I have in my notes, nothing more. So I did some diggin on the internet to see again why I concluded that.

Read this: http://www.hyperreal...ients/dmae.html

Here is the deal. DMAE is like a precurser to choline. The liver converts DMAE into choline, in a form that can pass through the blood-brain barrier (side note: my gf is a bioengineer w/a biology major and tells me that merely stating something has the ability to pass the blood-brain barrier isn't relevant to anything; but the reason why... I forget lol). Anyway, I take both forms of choline - CDP Choline and A-GPC. If you read the information regarding CDP choline, you will find that it (unlike AGPC) also passes through the blood-brain barrier, just like converted DMAE. So why take CDP Choline and not DMAE? I'm too tired to research that again... I'll let you have the fun. But when all was said and done, I found that CDP Choline was the better choice over DMAE.

Another side note, there are unique benefits to taking AGPC which are not shared by CDP, and there are benefits to CDP that are not shared by AGPC. So in a nutshell, if you have the $, you should take both. Do some forum searching to find out why.

Edited by LifeMirage, 10 November 2005 - 03:36 PM.

[rfarris]

But my question was how can DMAE "counteract" choline, as you said. It sounds to me like there would be no bad effect from taking both.

And how about centrophenoxine? Isn't that just another form of DMAE?

[caver]

The main reason I take DMAE is because it helps to remove lipofucin. I take lots of carnosine, and lipofucin is believed to be produced when carnosine acts on AGEs.

[oilfieldpilot]

Caver,
how much do you take? no ill-effects that you've noticed?

What else are you taking if ya don't mind my asking...

[caver]

I take a 351 mg tablet of DMAE every morning plus my multi has 30 mg (it gave me a slight headache for the first two days).

Also:
carnosine 500 mg twice per day =1000 mg
benfotiamine 160 mg twice per day =320 mg
deperenyl 2mg (liquid)
piracetam 1600-4800 mg
choline 350-700 mg (depending on how much Piracetam I take)
r-lipoic acid 200 mg twice per day = 400 mg
ALCAR 500 mg twice per day = 1000 mg
resveratrol 5 mg
melatonin 5 mg before bed

E 200 IU (mixed tocopherols) plus 200 IU E succinate and 67 mg E gamma complex in multi; maybe too much E
CoQ10 90mg twice per day plus 20mg in multi= ~200 mg
Omega3 1000mg twice per day = ~2000 mg+
ALA 12.5 mg twice per day = 25 mg (it comes with my CoQ10 supplement for some reason)
NAC 600 mg
C 500 mg x 3
spiriulina
rhodiola
A good Multi: Source Naturals Lifeorce Multiple

Edited by caver, 13 November 2005 - 11:50 PM.

[rfarris]

Would you care to discuss how you schedule the supplements? As in:

Wake-up
Before Breakfast
With Breakfast
After Breakfast
Mid Morning
Before Lunch
With Lunch
After Lunch
Mid Afternoon
Before Supper
With Supper
After Supper
Bedtime

[robbie7]

DMAE should not be taken if you are taking choline. And if you are into nootropics, then you are likely taking choline. Why should it not be taken? Two reasons:
1. It has the same effect as choline supplementation; and
2. It will counteract your choline supplementation if you are already taking some

As for glutamine, I used to take a lot of it. But... I don't anymore because I read several studies that said (1) large doses don't really do that much for you; yes, some is good, but the doses recommended (3g/day) are just too much; (2) and the main reason for stopping taking it was... I can't really recall. But it was some really bad mental long term side effect. And I kid you not about that.

Hi guys,

I must disagree with what you've said (your 2nd point) - much research suggests taking DMAE with choline (specifically phosphatidylcholine.) There are heaps of pre-fabricated 'brain supplements' that contain both DMAE and PC together. As someone else said earlier, DMAE is converted into PC by the liver, but there are many other elements involved, such as converted DMAE having the ability to cross the blood-brain barrier etc. etc. One will not impede the other, although you may want to cut down the dose if you are using them both synergistically.

An example may be:

piracetam (800mg x 3 daily)
lecithin with 50% PC (1g x 3 daily)

modify to include DMAE:

piracetam (800mg x 3 daily)
lecithin with 50% PC (500g x 2 daily)
DMAE (250mg 2 x daily)

In this example, piracetam allows your brain to use more PC in your brain*1, but this means it will have the potential to use up more PC than your brain normally would - thus DMAE or lecithin is a good addition in this case because it will supply more PC to your brain.

I'm interested to know what you were taking L-glutamine for in the first place? Could you share it? I find taking 3g of l-glutamine helps as a 'pick-me-up'. This is converted into glutamic acid once it crosses the BB barrier and I find i'm more 'chatty' with it. Glutamine has heaps of uses eg. anti-oxidant, HGH releaser, blood-sugar level stabiliser etc.

Sounds like that really bad mental long-term side effect is still in full swing

Thanks,
Robbie


(1) 'One fascinating study suggests that piracetam might increase the number of cholinergic receptors in the brain' - from Smart Drugs I

[robbie7]

I take a 351 mg tablet of DMAE every morning plus my multi has 30 mg (it gave me a slight headache for the first two days).

Hi Caver,

That's a long supplement list =) What are your goals? It's suggested to start DMAE at 50-100mg and build up to your target dose (351mg in this case). The foods we eat can also affect us as much as the supplements we take, remember DMAE is found in sardines / anchovies.

Also avoiding alcohol and any caffeine (coffee, chocolate, cocoa or any teas) are suggested to avoid potential side-effects / contraindications.

Cheers,
Robbie

[caver]

HAHA rfarris I just take it all in two big piles! One at breakfast and one at dinner (I take a dose of piracetam with choline after lunch also). I am aware that enzyme action can destroy some of these compounds during digestion, but I still take them all with food. I don't have time in my day to divide my stack better really; or am I too lazy and forgetful?

---------------
Hey Robbie, I was aware of starting with a low dose of DMAE and slowly increasing, but I just started off with a bang and dealt with a little headache in the mornings for two days. I have had nothing but good restults with this stack (havn't changed anything for about five months). Lots of energy (training for a marathon), and reasonably good mental performance -considering how much red wine I drink [tung] .

[thehawk]

I take one 130 mg pill two hours before I play in a big poker tournament, it really seems to help me with the concentration.I seem to have a little hang over the next day,But the results in my play have made it well worth it.I think DMAE has really made me play better, but I do not take it daily only when I play in a big tournament.Good luck to you if you buy-in to that sort of thing, LOL.

TheHawk

[kenj]

The article discusses DHEA (Dehydroepiandrosterone) (which I BTW take every other/third day in smaller doses).

[xanadu]

Don't let one article scare you. That article did not give certain important details like what was the dosage and how would that compare with dosages taken by humans. The article did say that 25mg per day was safe but recommended only those over 60 take it. Sounds a little over cautious. I don't mean to knock all the research because I haven't really read it. I'm just pointing out that many studies use huge overdoses to find problems. A huge overdose of anything can be bad for you. If the lab animals got cancer at an equivilent of 100mg per day in humans, I'd be more worried. If it was at 1000mg per day, I'd say what is the relevence? Take too much salt and it will kill you. Too much of most vitamins will be toxic. I'm going to stick with my 25mg per day until I see something much more solid than this.

[oilfieldpilot]

bottom line though...

it is still questionable.
I'll stick with AGPC.

and good points, X. Even water can kill you

[purerealm]

What about "complete carcinogen" in the something model

[purerealm]

Rfarris:

Another reputed effect of DMAE supplementation is a rise in choline and acetylcholine levels and a corresponding increase in memory ability. This is based on the assumption that DMAE is a choline precursor [1] and also crosses the blood brain barrier more effectively than choline itself [9], giving it the ability to reach the brain and then increase brain choline levels. DMAE does consistently increase levels of free choline in the brain and body, but this is not because it is a converted to choline – it is because it competitively inhibits choline kinase and choline oxidase, preventing the metabolism of choline to phosphocholine and betaine [10-12]. As mentioned above, this results in the production of phosphatidyl-DMAE. However, this is not necessarily beneficial, since it replaces phosphatidylcholine, and thus may effectively blunt some of the biological actions of phosphatidylcholine [39].

bulknutrition.com

[caver]

Here look at this Kenj:

http://uimc.discover...r_way_to_take_d

[rfarris]

... I just take it all in two big piles! One at breakfast and one at dinner...

I make no claim that the way I do it is better, but just in case it is interesting to others, here's my stack timing:

Wake-up
Vitacel 7
Mito-Gold
Methylcobalamin
Ortho-Mind (CPD Choline)
Green Defense

Before Breakfast
1/2 tsp Piracetam
Network Synergy
Borage Oil
Mito Energy Optimizer (MEO)
Concentrated Salmon Oil with Astaxanthin
Galantamine

With Breakfast
Glocosamine/Chondroitin/MSM (GC/MSM)
Aniracetam
Centrophenoxine
Chromium
Ortho-Core

After Breakfast
(Meds)

Mid Morning
Oxiracetam
A-GPC
R-Plus
MEO
Super EPA/DHA
Network Synergy

Before Lunch
(nothing)

With Lunch
Pyritinol
Borage Oil
GC/MSM
Chromium
Ortho-Core

After Lunch
(nothing)

Mid Afternoon
Mito-Gold
Piracetam
Super EPA/DHA

Before Supper
R-Plus
Network Synergy
Borage Oil
Chromium
Super EPA/DHA

With Supper
Network Synergy
GC/MSM
Ortho-Core

After Supper
(nothing)

Bedtime
Melatonin
Green Defense

(blue = choline donors)

[kenj]

Here look at this Kenj:

http://uimc.discover...r_way_to_take_d

Caver, thank you for the link. I do make sure I take my DHEA with a host of antioxidants. I've lowered the dose since taking it for the first time few years ago, now skipping days. I may drop it depending on any future additions to my regimen.
I take DHEA for increased sexual health/basic health.

I make no claim that the way I do it is better, but just in case it is interesting to others, here's my stack timing

Rfarris, You seem very dedicated! In what areas do you feel you've improved the most? (I don't know if you've already explained that elsewhere or how long you've taken the compounds)