84 replies to this topic

[onemanatatime]

Sure your not really thinking about bacopa m? Because theanine and bacopa m. Are often mentioned together and bacopa m has been shown to upregulate GABA receptors over time and theanine has had some involving possibly affecting / corecting dopamine etc

[onemanatatime]

Im also wondering how mutch say PAWS sufferes will affect theire healing process by taking kava, gotu kola, ashwagandha, valerian , skullcap , lemon balm, Passion flower, honokiol etc I mean it's advised against - but in every case someone has used it there has been no tolerances and how can we really understand the herb / roots and extract as a whole process. I believe that Even there is still healing going on while taking some of these adaptogens and herbs. And that they can infact give quite a bit of relief to sufferers from PAWS benzo withdrawl etc what do you guys think?

[gamesguru]

not sure it would affect recovery, they are such weak gaba agonists.  to be safe, you could only use supps that upregulate gaba receptors, as opposed to transmitter... that would theoretically help: magnolia, theanine and magnesium to name a few

Edited by gamesguru, 22 February 2016 - 10:32 PM.

[onemanatatime]

not sure it would affect recovery, they are such weak gaba agonists.  to be safe, you could only use supps that upregulate gaba receptors, as opposed to transmitter... that would theoretically help: magnolia, theanine and magnesium to name a few

 

That wouldn't be so bad probably. 

 

But then again, many say that Gotu Kola greatly relieves theire PAWS symptoms, and some say its saved theire lives after Phenibut binge - probably cause it acts on the GABA -B receptor. Then again for a benzo user quitting, GABA B receptor targeted by Gotu Kola shouldn't really affect GABA - A receptor damage or should it ? Any takers on this one.

 

Also even if you would have to use a supplement like Gotu Kola all your life, too feel better that don't even look half as scary as say benzo´s for life or phenibut. Given it has memory and cognition improving abilities and possibly a bunch of others to with that - also being used for the last 1000 years in asia doesn't hurt as far as try out`s go either.

 

And also, given that they have a weak affinity for the Gaba receptor in the first place, and they have a low half life, there should be constant healing going on for say a benzo sufferer even if he were to take them every day. I mean even if the recovery where extended 50% if would make a lot more sense to go through it feeling more ok and not completely shot to shitty. You never hear about : going through gotu kola withdrawal or valerian root etc.

 

Hoping for inputs here from people more experienced in this field then me. please share :-) This thread can help people in need!

[gamesguru]

there was a case report on valerian withdrawal, including heart murmurs and delirium [!]

 

Ginsenoside Rc is a reputed GABA(B) antagonist, might help upregulate activity there [!]

&& ginkgo compounds are reputed GABA(A) angaonists (also glycine antagonists) [!]

 

&& yes, the repair is gradual and cumulative (the type of progress that's not easily undone, you'd have to start abusing benzos again)

what's going on is a restoration in receptor dynamics, a gradual return to homeostasis, but this all assumes gotu kola affects such a restoration. big assumption.

lemon balm, Passion flower, honokiol have more evidence, even antidepressants [!] (for upregulating gaba receptor sites)

 

AVOID

anything which upregulates GAD (taurine, ziziphus jujuba)
or inhibits gaba transaminease (luteolin, rosmirinic acid)

Edited by gamesguru, 23 February 2016 - 08:57 PM.

[aaron lockhart]

Any updates on experiences with dihydromyricetin? I have been using it every time I drink alcohol and it has helped a lot with the anxiety associated with withdrawal/hangover for me next day. I'm curious to see if anyone is experimenting with it for benzo wd?

[normalizing]

im curious if dihydromyricetin works for withdrawl from alcohol beyond just next day hangover, but most of the reports are on its anti-hangover effect

[onemanatatime]

Any updates on experiences with dihydromyricetin? I have been using it every time I drink alcohol and it has helped a lot with the anxiety associated with withdrawal/hangover for me next day. I'm curious to see if anyone is experimenting with it for benzo wd?

No i have actually had a hard time getting it through my customs. i live in a stupid country indeed. But there should be positive effects here, because it blocks the receptor site - which in turn would block the metabolites from stimulating the receptor in any way (thats probably why there is such a steep withdrawal curve) and some people feel better after slowly tapering off. After they are done, some people report that they feel better or at least some improvement after 4-8 weeks. and some discussions forums etc. claim that metabolites float around for that long - theoretically hindering the healing process.

 

im not a scientist or anything, but to me that make some sense that adding Dihydromyricetin should have  a positive effect. also speeding up the repair mechanism. Should possibly go well with bacopa M. as well, any more thoughts on this ?

[onemanatatime]

im curious if dihydromyricetin works for withdrawl from alcohol beyond just next day hangover, but most of the reports are on its anti-hangover effect

actually it does, or so it would seem at least. Because if you see one of the links above that i posted, i actually found a patent on using DIM on acute alcohol withdrawal and also Alcohol withdrawal in general from a chinese scientist etc. To me this is quite good news given that DIM is a natural compound and cannot in itself be patented, so they have obviously patented a specific dosing range or treatment length in general and used this as theire "method". What is even more interesting is that there are really a ton of articles about this stuff only its in chinese. So him having a chinese name if im not mistaken (the patent holder) probably translated a paper and filed the patent claim.

 

It's a "Novel treatment for Alcohol withdrawal symptoms" which in theory should work on Benzo withdrawal as well ? given that both work on the GABA-A receptor site.

[William Sterog]

You may wanna be careful using Gotu Kola if you are a man.

Antispermatogenic and antifertility effect of Pegaga (Centella asiatica L) on the testis of male Sprague-Dawley rats.

RESULTS:
The testis in the control group showed normal features with successive stages of transformation of the seminiferous epithelium into spermatozoa, whereas treated groups showed some degeneration of spermatogenic cells and reduction of spermatozoa in the lumen of the seminiferous tubules. Serum testosterone level was reduced in all treatment groups as compared to the control while cauda epididymal sperm count and motility showed significant decrease. Treatment with medium and high doses showed the most significant reduction (p<0.05) in sperm count.
CONCLUSIONS:
It is concluded that Centella asiatica L. exhibited antispermatogenic and antifertility effects on reproductive system of the male rats.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20589353

[normalizing]

more like, its actually safe for men beyond reproductive age

[gamesguru]

bacopa has a similar suppressive action on the gonads, but it appears fully reversible and without complication.

some of us just pull out and use the calender method anyways, so something like bacopa just further lowers our chances of needing an abortion. problem?

[birthdaysuit]

Rosmarinic acid in Lemon Balm acts as a GABA transaminase inhibitor as well as a 4-aminobutyrate transaminase. So longterm usage could potentially raise GABA, or up-regulate GABA receptors. It also inhibits IDO and blocks the formation of quinolinic acid. Possibly a good approach for mood disorders and over-stimulation. GABA antagonists might work better though, Gingko and Ginseng both antagonize GABA. Might increase anxiety though.

 

 

Edited by birthdaysuit, 02 June 2016 - 06:30 PM.

[birthdaysuit]

there was a case report on valerian withdrawal, including heart murmurs and delirium [!]

 

Ginsenoside Rc is a reputed GABA(B) antagonist, might help upregulate activity there [!]

&& ginkgo compounds are reputed GABA(A) angaonists (also glycine antagonists) [!]

 

&& yes, the repair is gradual and cumulative (the type of progress that's not easily undone, you'd have to start abusing benzos again)

what's going on is a restoration in receptor dynamics, a gradual return to homeostasis, but this all assumes gotu kola affects such a restoration. big assumption.

lemon balm, Passion flower, honokiol have more evidence, even antidepressants [!] (for upregulating gaba receptor sites)

 

AVOID

anything which upregulates GAD (taurine, ziziphus jujuba)
or inhibits gaba transaminease (luteolin, rosmirinic acid)

Why do you say to avoid inhibitors of gaba transaminease like rosmarinic acid bu tyet you state that Lemon Balm might upregulate gaba receptor sites? Rosmarinic acid is one of the main chemical compounds in Lemon Balm.

 

[gamesguru]

good catch, i was just echoing a post on reddit.

turns out he's sorely mistaken. honokiol and magnolol are reportedly positive allosteric modulators, so there's no expectation they'll UPregulate GABA. maybeee i read something about it knocking down GAD, but that might not be enough to offset all the GABA-T inhibition?

 

one tidbit on that note:

"... both Matricaria recutita (German chamomile) and Humulus lupulus (hops) showed significant inhibition of GAD activity"

 

and two leads (courtesy of this study):

• Bicuculline (GABA-A antagonist, alkaloid)
• Picrotoxin   (GABA-A and GABA-C antagonist, alkaloid)

[birthdaysuit]

 

good catch, i was just echoing a post on reddit.

turns out he's sorely mistaken. honokiol and magnolol are reportedly positive allosteric modulators, so there's no expectation they'll UPregulate GABA. maybeee i read something about it knocking down GAD, but that might not be enough to offset all the GABA-T inhibition?

 

one tidbit on that note:

"... both Matricaria recutita (German chamomile) and Humulus lupulus (hops) showed significant inhibition of GAD activity"

 

and two leads (courtesy of this study):

• Bicuculline (GABA-A antagonist, alkaloid)
• Picrotoxin   (GABA-A and GABA-C antagonist, alkaloid)

 

 

If a GABA-T inhibitor herb or chemical is used in sufficiently high doses can it completely inhibit GABA degradation. And if so will this down-regulate GABA receptors because of the increase in GABA via inhibition of GABA degradation? I've been told that Rosmarinic acid is very good to use for long term unlike GABA agonists, I'm potentially thinking that's not the case.
 

Edited by birthdaysuit, 03 June 2016 - 03:16 AM.

[gamesguru]

toally depends, id say for ash GABA-T is worse, but valerian and phenibit probly overpower it in terms of binding affinity.

ive tried an extract with luteolin and romarinic acid, and it felt more "natural"... after all subtle signalling differences between agonists can give rise to dramatic differences in effect.

i would go the rosmarinic acid route, and to be safe, balance out the tolerance with a pinch of ginseng and ginkgo EOD, for GABA-A and GABA-B antagonism.

[normalizing]

ive tried luteolin pure powders, NOTHING. its useless, its stupid it can go fuck itself!

[tolerant]

I will try to say what I already briefly posted here. People get excited about natural positive modulators of the GABA-a receptor. Well, guess what, benzodiazepines are also positive (allosteric) modulators of the same receptor. It doesn't make any difference to the brain whether the substance is natural or not. As is explained in this thread, if you want to reduce your tolerance to benzodiazepines, you can't take anything that will increase GABA, full stop. That includes positive modulators of the GABA-a receptor, GABA transminase inhibitors, GABA reuptake inhibitors and GABA precursors. It even includes "antiglutamatergic" drugs, such as Lyrica, because increase in glutamate neurotransmission is one of the possible postulated mechanisms of benzodiazepine tolerance (I can't find the paper where it says that at the moment; if I do, I will post it later). Even downregulation of GABA receptors may include at least three different processes, namely "adaptive alterations in the number, structure, and/or functions of these receptors": https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/26733466.

 

I am in the same boat as many of you guys, in that I am addicted to benzodiazepines and Lyrica and I have found that I need to up the dose every so often just to stay afloat. While there are some anecdotal reports here and there of someone being able to reduce tolerance or overcome benzo addiction painlessly, in my opinion there isn't sufficient evidence to get excited about natural agonists, transminase inhibitors, reuptake inhibitors and precursors because, as someone has already averted to here, you will get the same type of tolerance, dependence and withdrawal if you use these substances. There is also no point of getting excited about something that overcomes a hangover, because it is probably also acts by increasing GABAergic transmission. In Russia, where drinking of vodka is prevalent, the most common hangover cure is to have a small amount of vodka the morning after consuming it. What it does is effectively a taper down from a large amount of alcohol (a potent GABAergic) to a smaller amount.

 

To sum up, the experienced folks on benzo addiction forums who say that the only way is to taper slowly are in my opinion correct. The only other way is to substitute something that without increasing GABA, does not induce tolerance, and so can be used long term, such as an SSRI. But I am awake to the fact that people who come on here have probably already failed treatment with SSRIs or other drugs (again, I am in the same boat). In his thread, ScienceGuy lists a number of compounds which he thinks may be used for this purpose.

 

Lastly, while looking for the paper I referred to above, I came across this paper. It distinguishes between full and partial GABA-a agonists, which to me is a novel concept and may be something that is promising.

 

 

Edited by tolerant, 04 June 2016 - 12:12 AM.

[psychejunkie]

I also agree with that.

I guess gradually decreasing benzos and combining it with something like Melatonin/Hydroxyzine (for sleep disorders) or Hydroxyzine/Buspirone (for anxiety) in time would be a better choice for fighting benzos tolerance

Edited by psychejunkie, 04 June 2016 - 12:32 AM.

[tolerant]

The paper I was referring to with regards to glutamatergic theories of GABA-a tolerance (see section 4.3) can be found here : http://www.hindawi.c...ps/2012/416864/

[onemanatatime]

I will try to say what I already briefly posted here. People get excited about natural positive modulators of the GABA-a receptor. Well, guess what, benzodiazepines are also positive (allosteric) modulators of the same receptor. It doesn't make any difference to the brain whether the substance is natural or not. As is explained in this thread, if you want to reduce your tolerance to benzodiazepines, you can't take anything that will increase GABA, full stop. That includes positive modulators of the GABA-a receptor, GABA transminase inhibitors, GABA reuptake inhibitors and GABA precursors. It even includes "antiglutamatergic" drugs, such as Lyrica, because increase in glutamate neurotransmission is one of the possible postulated mechanisms of benzodiazepine tolerance (I can't find the paper where it says that at the moment; if I do, I will post it later). Even downregulation of GABA receptors may include at least three different processes, namely "adaptive alterations in the number, structure, and/or functions of these receptors": https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/26733466.

 

I am in the same boat as many of you guys, in that I am addicted to benzodiazepines and Lyrica and I have found that I need to up the dose every so often just to stay afloat. While there are some anecdotal reports here and there of someone being able to reduce tolerance or overcome benzo addiction painlessly, in my opinion there isn't sufficient evidence to get excited about natural agonists, transminase inhibitors, reuptake inhibitors and precursors because, as someone has already averted to here, you will get the same type of tolerance, dependence and withdrawal if you use these substances. There is also no point of getting excited about something that overcomes a hangover, because it is probably also acts by increasing GABAergic transmission. In Russia, where drinking of vodka is prevalent, the most common hangover cure is to have a small amount of vodka the morning after consuming it. What it does is effectively a taper down from a large amount of alcohol (a potent GABAergic) to a smaller amount.

 

To sum up, the experienced folks on benzo addiction forums who say that the only way is to taper slowly are in my opinion correct. The only other way is to substitute something that without increasing GABA, does not induce tolerance, and so can be used long term, such as an SSRI. But I am awake to the fact that people who come on here have probably already failed treatment with SSRIs or other drugs (again, I am in the same boat). In his thread, ScienceGuy lists a number of compounds which he thinks may be used for this purpose.

 

Lastly, while looking for the paper I referred to above, I came across this paper. It distinguishes between full and partial GABA-a agonists, which to me is a novel concept and may be something that is promising.

that maybe so, and i get where you're coming from, but say if Ash and bacopa + let´s say Kava worked for you in a similar fashion as benzodiazepines, even if they in themselves have some drawbacks and is advised against, if you could in fact successfully manage your "needs" with that natural combo would you not take that every day for the rest of your life instead of say 400mg lyrica + an ever increasing dosage of diazepam, alprazolam, clonazepam etc ? There is still much to be learnt about the potential long term damaging effects off benzo´s given that they have only been used for 60-80 years . The other compounds have been used in a great amount of time going back 1000 off years with a seemingly good safety profile , and research continues to establish itself on even more positive effects on other aspects of health. Adaptogenic properties, cognitive enhancement etc  . 

 

I mean i totally get it, science guy is a great guy, he has some solid solid research behind his work, but then again the reason for people taking benzodiazepines in the first place are so extremely different , that to totally get into all this you would have to include so many variables, like heavy metals, neurotoxicity, genetics, epigenetics, diet, stress, gut health - microbiota, living conditions, methylation, deficiencies micro and macro nutrients, food intolerances etc there is just so much information and variables  that come into play , some people have genetics that predispose them to being high in glutamate and low in gaba and probably vice versa. All this comes into play when you talk about quitting benzo and withdrawal and recovery times etc. And also a benzo is a benzo, it´s mechanism is straightforward, but a herb has a ton of working mechanism and interactions going beyond a simple potentiation or effect on the gaba receptor.

 

that's my 2 cents on it anyways

[normalizing]

i hate when people keep saying herbal stuff has been used for centuries while meds just recently and do not have long term safety profile but how can you know for sure without ANY DATA BEING AVAILABLE LONG TERM WITH MONITORING AND STUDIES UNDER STRICT SCIENTIFIC CONTROL which exact type of plants, in what ways, how and where and prolonged were used ? nobody monitored, there are no records, black hole! all natural healers will never say their methods failed or they will lose business back in the day. though, i cannot think of any great amazing famous herbal healer from back in the days who lived a long respectful life.

i think safety of modern medicine is much more solid proof science based on the fact in just the past 50 years or so THERE ARE COUNTLESS FOLLOW UPS, REPORTS AND CONTROL versus ABSOLUTELY NO CONTROL AND MONITORING OF PEOPLE USING HERBAL STUFF GOING FAR BACK AS BC. this way, all the negative side effects, toxicities and problems that are actually quite a bit in modern medicine is only present because of the strict control and monitoring of people taking the stuff versus very few side effects on quite loose and uncontrolled natural healing!

in summary, as short term as modern synthetic medicine has been used by man it has stricter and better control and monitoring than all herbals being used since man walked the earth and thats actually kind of shocking to acknowledge.

Edited by normalizing, 05 June 2016 - 09:12 PM.

[gamesguru]

synthetic medicine... has stricter and better control and monitoring than all herbals being used

 

114 Years Young: Longevity Secrets With Bernando LaPallo
Bernando La Pallo and Ekayani superfoodBrazilian-born Bernando LaPallo has lived in New York for 90 years and, astonishingly enough, was alive for another 24 years in addition to that. Global Freedom Movement Media caught up with him for a chat and to pick the super-centenarian’s still supple brain for his secrets to living a long, healthy and fulfilling life. It all started as a boy (at the tender age of 5) with the sensible insights from Bernando’s father, a doctor and herbalist, who inculcated the values and habits that yet still guide Bernando over nine decades later.

 

Edited by YOLF, 09 June 2016 - 10:17 AM.

[normalizing]

wiki just leads me to "longevity claims" page not sure if this guy is for real at all. anyway what did he take to have such proposed long life anyway, drink his greens daily? from all the longevity charts i can find, its mostly women and their diets are as diverse as bacon, cigarates, fish or various other crap completely unrelated to what people claim extends long life.

 

here is a quite i got tho "No single subject is more obscured by vanity, deceit, falsehood, and deliberate fraud than the extremes of human longevity" that might as well go for the supplement industry

Edited by normalizing, 05 June 2016 - 09:23 PM.

[gamesguru]

i do not think RCs enhance lifespan either, and i dont think increased lifespan is the only indicator of a health-promoting supplement. astragalus is a popular antiaging herb, but without too much evidence for cognitive-enhancing effects. the two dont always go hand-in-hand. plenty of evidence exists for popular herbal noots, open your eyes. furthermore, they still have more history, and somebody somewhere would have reported devastating effects if there were many to report. even ginkgo was known to increase bleeding risk as early as 1800. by comparison, very few people have dabbled with nsi. it is more mysterious and enigmatic than tea, ginkgo and bacopa combined.

Edited by gamesguru, 05 June 2016 - 11:34 PM.

[normalizing]

you keep mentioning nsi and you seem to be against anything new that comes out with data suggesting it might have superior effects on aging and/or brain deterioration prevention. but you cannot realize it seems, or cant, in the future those will be the accepted norms unlike now, nobody in 100 years, hell even half that i think,  will still eat tea gingko or bacopa because that would be quite the neanderthal's thinking.

[gamesguru]

nobody in 100 years will use NSI either, cause we'll all be gene-spliced superhumans who thrive on polluted water. in the meantime, herbals will hopefully keep pace with emerging RCs.

btw, tolerant, nice paper. it seems every neurotransmitter is involved in PAWS, how unsurprising.

 

Nature | Editorial  09 March 2016
Gene intelligence: The risks and rewards of genome editing resonate beyond the clinic.

Last month, one of the top intelligence officials in the United States warned that genome-editing technology is now a potential weapon of mass destruction. Techniques such as the emerging CRISPR–Cas9 system, US director of national intelligence James Clapper warned in an annual threat-assessment report to the US Senate, should be listed as dangers alongside nuclear tests in North Korea or clandestine chemical weapons in Syria (see go.nature.com/jxuyev).


hPlusMagazine  May 29, 2014
What physical or mental enhancements are possible through gene therapy ?

Advances in genetics now permit to edit one’s genome relatively easily. Gene therapy is now used exclusively to fix diseases, but could soon be used by transhumanists for genetic enhancement, such as augmenting one’s mental faculties or improving one’s physical appearance. What exactly can we modify and what are the risks involved ?

Edited by gamesguru, 06 June 2016 - 12:43 PM.

[Justchill]

I've quit an etizolam habit cold turkey. The first weeks and months were not easy. I suffered a lot. Now it's going better. However, everytime I take an occasional benzo dosage I'm getting withdrawal symptoms.. muscle tension, severe bloating, anxiety etc etc.. 

 

Do not take benzo's long term, when you hit withdrawal, you will suffer.

 

I guess doing sports a lot and having a well balanced diet helps us upregulate brain systems best.

 

Has anybody tried kudzu root, which is a GABA-A antagonist?

Has anybody tried NMDA antagonists for GABA upregulation?

 

Cheers

[Omega 3 Snake Oil]

what do you guys think about the Swiss Protocol/Bravo Yogurt or GcMAF in general for upregulating GABA/healing the brain?

 

http://www.autismone...ctrum-disorders

 

it seems to be helpful for more than just autism/cancer.

I just bought some of the freeze dried caps from Bravo. I have Lyme with tons of neuro stuff, inc. GABA disregulation/glutamate toxicity, seeming to involve my thalamus and hypothalamus. Will report back once I try it.