40 replies to this topic

[aconita]

I agree if one eats animals has to be able to kill and slaughter, not necessarily it has to be done at every meal but one has to be able to do it.

 

But the mind is very good at playing tricks... as a friend of mine told a long time ago it is not just because lettuce doesn't have eyes to look into that a life is not taken when you harvest it. 

 

We can't survive without killing, actually we can't even breath.

 

There is nothing wrong with killing, what's wrong, very wrong, is killing for nothing.

 

Wasting food, any food, is the biggest crime against life (or God, if you like so). 

 

Like the Kalahari bushman play your dance when you kill/buy your food, elevate its status to sacred because its sacrifice is going to allow you to live, if it is a lettuce or a cow with big brown eyes it doesn't matter.

 

 

[Adam Karlovsky]

I respect your attitudes 1jol and aconita.

 

 if it is a lettuce or a cow with big brown eyes it doesn't matter.

I don't mean to nitpick, but I hope you're more appreciative of a cow than a lettuce, for if my understanding is correct a cow is conscious and can suffer, while a lettuce is non-conscious and cannot.

Edited by Adam Karlovsky, 21 January 2016 - 11:28 PM.

[aconita]

We are going to dive deep into philosophical considerations here!

 

Well, life is life, who are we to judge which is more worth of respect and which less?

 

Judging on which bases, comparisons to our status?

 

Wouldn't it be quite naive and even dangerous?

 

Wouldn't it be like considering one way of living superior and more worth than another?

 

Are we really sure we know everything about lettuce and its reality?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sthira]

Thanks, Aconita, I think we're on the same page here. I agree that meat-eaters shouldn't be required to kill their animal for every meal. That would be totally nonsensical. What I mean is they should kill a cow, pig, lamb, chicken, goat at least one time. Killing it yourself drives into you what you're actually doing when you're eating an animal. It was a living, breathing, feeling creature with eyes and ears, taste and touch. That animal also gets afraid, may get happy, may get sad -- they're feeling, sentient creatures. Kill him, eat him, dispose of him with respect and gratitude.

I agree that we're also killing when we eat vegetables and fungi. And actually this is a reason some people become fruitarians. We don't kill oranges and berries and peaches and plums. Nor do we kill nuts and seeds. Some veggie greens I suppose we may pick leaves off and preserve the whole plant. But for me, this is going a little too far. But I do respect the people who draw the line here, and attempt to kill nothing even by wearing masks to prevent killing insects. Like the Jains, I think.

[aconita]

Eating fruits or nuts and seeds is preventing life from happening, a bit like abortion.

 

Would you call it killing?

 

I am not sure... but certainly is not the kindest thing to do if we are talking about respecting life.

 

Only plants, with some exceptions, don't kill other living creatures in order to feed themselves but they do kill other plants for space and light (which is food for a plant)...

 

If we really look close enough probably it would be hard to find a living organism not killing in order to live, maybe such an organism doesn't exist, actually very likely it doesn't exist.

 

That's why I think killing is not such a big issue after all, it's just how life is supposed to be.

 

I respect extremes like Jains too but I think they live a contradictions since if they are alive it is at the expenses of somebody else life anyway, if wearing a mask makes them feeling better I am not disturbed.

 

I am disturbed when a life is taken just to be disposed.

 

 

[Adam Karlovsky]

Back to nutrition, I do think the evidence is on the side of plant based diets, though there are certainly benefits to consuming certain types of animal products. The nutritional problem with veganism is not unsolvable, but there is much more for us to learn before veganism can provide optimal nutrition for all genotypes. Yes, the optimal diet does seem to depend on your genes, so vegan A might take supplements N, M and O, while vegan B might take supplements N, O, Z and W, to reach their goal. We must also consider that optimal longevity does not have perfect cross over with optimal performance, and often increases in one decreases the other.

[sthira]

In the case of seeds, birds and other animals eat them, travel away, then excrete the seeds somewhere else. It's a way some plants disperse their lines. So I wouldn't call eating fruits and seeds similar to abortion. For us humans that may be so -- since we shit in toilets and the crapped out seeds die in municipal sewage. But for wild critters eating seeds there's sometimes some symbiosis going on between eater and eaten. Eating seeds may be beneficial to both organisms.

I suppose what I meant by not killing a fruit is when we pick an orange we don't kill the orange tree. But when we eat spinach we kill the whole plant. When we eat reishi we kill the fungus

Edited by sthira, 22 January 2016 - 12:58 AM.

[sthira]

Back to nutrition, I do think the evidence is on the side of plant based diets, though there are certainly benefits to consuming certain types of animal products. The nutritional problem with veganism is not unsolvable, but there is much more for us to learn before veganism can provide optimal nutrition for all genotypes. Yes, the optimal diet does seem to depend on your genes, so vegan A might take supplements N, M and O, while vegan B might take supplements N, O, Z and W, to reach their goal. We must also consider that optimal longevity does not have perfect cross over with optimal performance, and often increases in one decreases the other.

Fish is probably healthy -- except too bad about the deplorable state of the oceans. We treat the ocean like a toilet -- how can we expect all sea critters to then be pristine and healthy? We're repeatedly told how safe and healthy fish like wild caught salmon and sardines are for us. Go Omega 3s, etc. But who really knows about their safety? We rely naively that these big seafood industries aren't lying about heavy metals and contaminants from the spoilt oceans.

Regarding land animals and their health benefits, it's interesting to note how these Blue Zone cultures that are evidently celebrated for health and longevity tend to treat meat as a side dish rather than the main meal. That may be instructive. You mayn't need to go full on vegan or vegetarian -- maybe just limit what's known to cause problems?

I think the optimum human nutrition puzzle will ultimately be solved by an AI like device like IBM's Watson. It seems clear that most nutritional studies are not very accurate.

[niner]

In the case of seeds, birds and other animals eat them, travel away, then excrete the seeds somewhere else. It's a way some plants disperse their lines. So I wouldn't call eating fruits and seeds similar to abortion. For us humans that may be so -- since we shit in toilets and the crapped out seeds die in municipal sewage. But for wild critters eating seeds there's sometimes some symbiosis going on between eater and eaten. Eating seeds may be beneficial to both organisms.

I suppose what I meant by not killing a fruit is when we pick an orange we don't kill the orange tree. But when we eat spinach we kill the whole plant. When we eat reishi we kill the fungus

 

If you eat a fruit and swallow the seeds, you haven't killed anything, as long as you poop out the seed somewhere in nature where it has a chance to grow.  But if you chew up the seed itself, then that would be analogous to killing an embryo.  New bumper sticker:  Sunflower Seeds = Murder!

 

This thread is starting to make sense now.

[sthira]

In the case of seeds, birds and other animals eat them, travel away, then excrete the seeds somewhere else. It's a way some plants disperse their lines. So I wouldn't call eating fruits and seeds similar to abortion. For us humans that may be so -- since we shit in toilets and the crapped out seeds die in municipal sewage. But for wild critters eating seeds there's sometimes some symbiosis going on between eater and eaten. Eating seeds may be beneficial to both organisms.

I suppose what I meant by not killing a fruit is when we pick an orange we don't kill the orange tree. But when we eat spinach we kill the whole plant. When we eat reishi we kill the fungus

If you eat a fruit and swallow the seeds, you haven't killed anything, as long as you poop out the seed somewhere in nature where it has a chance to grow. But if you chew up the seed itself, then that would be analogous to killing an embryo. New bumper sticker: Sunflower Seeds = Murder!

This thread is starting to make sense now.

Haha, right. But if that chewed up seed contained salmonella then it might mean murder for the sunflower seed, but life for the bacteria. For example, this in my email today from FDA regarding salmonella in macadamia nuts. Death to the nut, life to the bacteria:

"Mahina Mele Farms, LLC Recalls Macadamia Nut Products Due To Possible Health Risk
01/21/2016 09:33 PM EST

Mahina Mele Farms, LLC is recalling the following products after FDA testing found Salmonella in macadamia nuts. Salmonella is an organism which can cause serious and sometimes fatal infections in young children, frail or elderly people, and others with weakened immune systems. Healthy persons infected with Salmonella often experience fever, diarrhea (which may be bloody), nausea, vomiting and abdominal pain. In rare circumstances, infection with Salmonella can result in the organism getting into the bloodstream and producing more severe illnesses such as arterial infections (i.e., infected aneurysms), endocarditis and arthritis."

[aconita]

Life cannot exist without death and death cannot exist without life.

 

Life and death aren't two separate things, one feeds the other and vice verse.

 

I don't think the killing as a relevant factor when discussing the advantages or disadvantages of a diet against another.

 

It all has to be kept in perspective, for a monk meditating all day probably a low protein and low calories diet would better suit needs and health, I doubt the same would be for an athlete or a miner.

 

This consideration arises another question: research tell us calories restriction and to a certain extent protein restriction yields longer life expectancy but research is based on animal models, often not even mammals (fruit flies, worms, etc...), usually not in a wild state but confined and feed without any effort by the research subject...is that really representative of how it works in humans, all humans, including those with a very active lifestyle?