38 replies to this topic

[LiveWell]

Hi Everyone, Brand new member here. Y'all have a great forum and have provided TONS of information. Thank you all.

I was severely depressed, if that's the right word for it, for a number of years. I didn't want to commit suicide to ease my suffering. Instead I wanted to murder myself because I was so despicable. I saw nothing redeeming in this twisted lump of flesh.

5-HTP helped a bit. When I was sad, it took that away so I was just angry instead of angry and sad. But taking it regularly just lead to feeling like an automaton.

A friend recommended that I add Mucuna Pruriens to it. Wow! It saved my life and saved my marriage. Now it's stopped working and I'm in the gradual decline back to self hatred.

I've read a lot (in the last 24 hours) that has shown me why it's stopped working. Now I need something to prevent the self loathing that decimated my marriage and nearly killed me.

My current stack:
100 mg DHEA - Mental Clarity - I could probably use less but the caps just come in 100 mg.
6 tablets Drenamin - Boost adrenal function to prevent Sciatica.
400 mg Mucuna Pruriens (60mg l-dopa) - Mood improvement
100 mg 5-HTP - Only when needed, which is rare when the Mucuna works.

When I have sciatica I add:
1000 mg Ibuprofen - Inflamation reduction - Twice a day
1000 mg Turmeric (95% Curcuminoids) - Inflamation reduction - Twice a day
1 drop Black pepper essential oil
100 mg 5-HTP - Sciatica brings feelings of depression and worthlessness

With the Mucuna Pruriens, I could walk around, feeling truly confident, like I have something to add to society, like I matter.

I'd love to get back to the point that the Mucuna Pruriens works again. People on this forum have mentioned things like Turmeric, Cordyceps, and Uridine. If the MP should be avoided, I can work with that. I just need to know what will do the trick.

Honestly, I don't know where to begin. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[FunkOdyssey]

I'd exhaust clinically proven approaches before resorting to random supplements.  Therapy, daily aerobic exercise, 1-2g of pure EPA fish oil, 10k lux lightbox, etc.

[LiveWell]

Completely understood. Here's where I stand on all of those:

 

Therapy: Every 2 weeks. It helps to talk about things but the long-term effects seem to be in the sudden realizations that come from it. Doesn't really seem to help with the day-to-day struggles. My mind just goes negative and it's a steep downward spiral.

 

Daily aerobic exercise: Walk the dogs 1-1.5 miles almost every evening. Just getting back to the gym because I hate crowded gyms and tons of people come to fulfill 2 weeks of their new years resolutions. Most of them are gone now. :-) Weight training then 30 minutes on elliptical and 30 minutes on treadmill, 4-5 days a week.

 

1-2g of pure EPA fish oil: Ugh! I haven't found one yet that doesn't make me belch nasty, disgusting. rotten fish. If you can recommend one, I'm all ears!

 

10k lux lightbox: You are right, light DEFINITELY plays a role in our emotions. I go outside multiple times a day (Southern California) to get some light. On the days it's overcast, I can deal with it because it doesn't last long. 

 

LW

[FunkOdyssey]

Check out omegavia: http://omegavia.com/epa-500/

It's also available from amazon but some report they get fresher oil direct from the manufacturer.

[LiveWell]

Yeah, getting fresh fish oil would be important. Thanks for the link!

[Heisok]

I'd exhaust clinically proven approaches before resorting to random supplements.  Therapy, daily aerobic exercise, 1-2g of pure EPA fish oil, 10k lux lightbox, etc.

 

Is fish oil clinically proven at doses of 1-2 grams? Thanks.
 

[FunkOdyssey]

 

I'd exhaust clinically proven approaches before resorting to random supplements.  Therapy, daily aerobic exercise, 1-2g of pure EPA fish oil, 10k lux lightbox, etc.

 

Is fish oil clinically proven at doses of 1-2 grams? Thanks.
 

 

 

Yes, it is at least as effective as fluoxetine.  EPA specifically provides the benefit while DHA may be worse than placebo.

[LiveWell]

Yes, it is at least as effective as fluoxetine.  EPA specifically provides the benefit while DHA may be worse than placebo.

 

That's fascinating! There's SOOOO much to learn about this. Thanks!

[Heisok]

Thanks FunkOdyssey.

 

Live Well, I want to add my personal experience. I tried 5-HTP for depression, and it made things worse quickly. Perhaps too much Serotonin. I also had problems around the time of trying Mucuna Pruriens, but it was a long time ago. I think care is always warranted when dealing with brain issues.

[Junk Master]

If I were you I'd consider dropping the DHEA, or at least lowering your dose.  If men take more than 50 mg a day they tend to convert more DHEA more readily to estrogen than testosterone.  Excess estrogen WILL make you more emotional and any hormonal imbalance can contribute to depression.

[James Phillip Turpin]

Perhaps it would be better to take supplements that are more upstream in the metabolic pathways, like L-Phenylalanine or L-tryptophan? Or take melatonin at night before sleeping - getting better sleep seems to help with many things - and alleviating the burden of producing that neurotransmitter may allow more prodtion of the others. I avoid 5-Htp and L-Dopa supplementation myself. I have concerns about bypassing the typical metabolic pathways with those.

[LiveWell]

Live Well, I want to add my personal experience. I tried 5-HTP for depression, and it made things worse quickly. Perhaps too much Serotonin. I also had problems around the time of trying Mucuna Pruriens, but it was a long time ago. I think care is always warranted when dealing with brain issues.

Yeah, the 5-HTP is now an occasional use item. At least for me, it works well like that. As an every day thing, it makes things worse.

 

As for the Mucuna, it worked great for about 5 months of 5-day a week use. It was like confidence in a pill and it was great. I want to get back to that feeling, if not through MP, somehow.

 

If I were you I'd consider dropping the DHEA, or at least lowering your dose.  If men take more than 50 mg a day they tend to convert more DHEA more readily to estrogen than testosterone.  Excess estrogen WILL make you more emotional and any hormonal imbalance can contribute to depression.

Ok! Cycling off that immediately! 

 

If the caps come in 100 gram doses, is there a good way of regulating my intake in smaller doses? Maybe 20 mg doses?

 

Perhaps it would be better to take supplements that are more upstream in the metabolic pathways, like L-Phenylalanine or L-tryptophan? Or take melatonin at night before sleeping - getting better sleep seems to help with many things - and alleviating the burden of producing that neurotransmitter may allow more prodtion of the others. I avoid 5-Htp and L-Dopa supplementation myself. I have concerns about bypassing the typical metabolic pathways with those.

That's a good idea. I don't typically need the 5-HTP when there is a decent amount of Dopamine in my system and good sleep is ALWAYS a good thing. So what is a good upstream supplement for dopamine production? And what's an appropriate dosage for someone who has done a good amount of damage to their body through reckless living?

[Junk Master]

The max DHEA I'd use, and this is for someone OVER 45 is 50 mg every other day.  If you want to raise test then there are better ways to do it.

 

Also, I wouldn't discount test as a mood booster!  

 

(*Just wanted to add before everyone chimes in "How...to raise Test..."  Think HRT or micro-doses, or short cycles with responsible dosages and ancillaries to bring back HPA Axis)

Edited by Junk Master, 31 January 2016 - 12:36 AM.

[LiveWell]

@Junk Master,

 

You're talking way over my head. HRA, Ancillaries, HPA Axis? I first need to learn what these things are.

 

Is there a good book, that isn't for the extremely educated, where I could learn about brain chemicals and everything you're talking about? I'm just learning how much I don't know and it's scaring me into not wanting to take anything at all because I have no idea how it all works.

 

Thanks!

[adamh]

Experiment first with the tried and true supps. Try st johns wort, it works for almost everyone, its cheap, legal and otc. Next, try slightly underground treatments, if you can get hold of ketamine, that one is a miracle worker. There are places that will send to your country. It will be much cheaper than going to a shrink and rotating through a dozen or so pharmaceuticals over a year or two that may not help and often have nasty side effects. Both st j's and ket work instantly, within an hour or so.

[LiveWell]

Experiment first with the tried and true supps. Try st johns wort, it works for almost everyone, its cheap, legal and otc. Next, try slightly underground treatments, if you can get hold of ketamine, that one is a miracle worker. There are places that will send to your country. It will be much cheaper than going to a shrink and rotating through a dozen or so pharmaceuticals over a year or two that may not help and often have nasty side effects. Both st j's and ket work instantly, within an hour or so.

I've never been overly thrilled with SJW. It helps with the depression but isn't the confidence booster that DM is. That stuff makes me feel genuinely confident, but not cocky. It's great.

 

As for K, I tried it twice during my rave days (mid 90's) and thought it was horrible. People swore to me that it was the best stuff ever but I never liked it. Maybe if I'd taken a lot less, it would have been better, it would have been better. No one knows. If a friend had some and I could micro-dose, it would be worth trying. Not curious enough to buy my own stash.

 

Thanks for the suggestions.

[adamh]

I have noticed that depressed people will almost invariably find flaw with any suggestions and refuse to try them. I think it has to do with the nature of depression, trying something means risking getting even worse. I'm not saying you are closed minded but I've heard stuff like that many times when I recommend cures for depression and almost never will they try it.

 

"As for K, I tried it twice during my rave days (mid 90's) and thought it was horrible. People swore to me that it was the best stuff ever but I never liked it. Maybe if I'd taken a lot less, it would have been better"

 

You don't take it for the buzz, you take it for its anti-d effects. 20 mg insufflated is enough. I have no use for the effects which are a slight drunken feeling on that dose for 30 minutes or so. But after an hour or less the depression is gone. You started this thread saying what you were using no longer worked and wanted something that did. Either make yourself try it or why bother asking?

 

Another thing that depressed people always refuse to try is salvia divinorum. Very small doses can do the job quickly. Hardly any buzz. Before you tell me you won't use anything that is a hallucinogen, it is one. However only at higher doses. The dose makes the poison or the medicine, all things are toxic at too high doses.

 

"I've never been overly thrilled with SJW. It helps with the depression but isn't the confidence booster that DM is"

 

I see no mention of "dm" in this thread. If you have something already that works well, great. SJW works. 

[Heisok]

Hi adamh,

 

You make great points as do the other posters. Similar to your comment about many with deep depression not having the resilience to try multiple strategies, it is natural. Sometimes they are hanging on by a thread. The depths can feel as if one is near a bottom of a well yet still falling.

 

Bottom line is that no matter if the original poster tries the solutions right now, the seed might be planted for when they might be ready.

 

Most importantly the thread will live on with possible access by many individuals who do an internet search for help. That is how us newbees find longecity. That is what makes many sites grow.

[LiveWell]

Adam,

 

I'm sorry I pissed in your cheerios. It was not my intent. And thank you for the astute observation of depressed people. It's quite endearing.

 

The DM I referred to was a mistake. My apologies. MP is what I should have said. When talking about it I frequently revert back to calling Mucuna Pruriens what NOW brands calls theirs, Dopa Mucuna. Hence the DM.

 

"I've never been overly thrilled with SJW. It helps with the depression but isn't the confidence booster that DM is" Yes, it does help with the depression and I said that. I didn't mean to offend you. What I am looking for at this point isn't necessarily the anti-depressant but the confidence booster. Though I don't think I actually realized that when I started the thread. For the confidence boost, MP is amazing. I wish I could mainline it. To that end (boosting, not mainlining) I have found the DHA, Uridine, Citicoline stack. I hope this can upregulate my dopamine receptors. If that will work, I'll be a happy man. If it doesn't, well, I haven't lost anything but a bit of money.

 

And I never said I would never take anything that is a hallucinogen. Thank you for putting words in my mouth. In fact, I rather enjoy hallucinogens. LSD, Shrooms, Microdots, MDMA... I love them! In fact, I have someone preparing some shrooms for me and was considering microdosing those. The 2 times I took K, I felt horrible and saw no redeeming value of it. Personal experience and opinion. I am still allowed to have one, right?

 

As for the salvia divinorum, I know nothing about it. I'd be more than willing to do the research on that. Do you have a specific link that you think I should read? I promise to read any material on it that you send my way.

 

LiveWell

 

P.S. I hope our next encounter can be a bit less confrontational. :-)

[BeachyKeen]

Did you find something to replace the Mucuna??  Did it help?

[LiveWell]

Well, no. I haven't.

 

It seems, though I haven't had a clinical diagnosis or anything, that my dopamine receptors have been down-regulated. The problem is that they're slow to up-regulate, if they upregulate at all. I have tried a number of substances to regain what I had attained but nothing really works. The good news is that I never slipped back to where I had been before I discovered the mucuna pruriens. I was terrified that I would, but that never happened. Life hasn't all butterflies and rainbows, but it's been a whole lot better than it was before. Suicide isn't a daily, or even monthly, consideration. And I'm thankful!

 

Ashwagandha helps a bit.

5-HTP helps but chronic use turned me into an automaton. I was either numb or angry but nothing else. I still use it, but only occasionally.

Adrafinil is kinda like the MP was but not as strong and it feels different. But not bad, artificial would be a good word for it.

 

I could go down a list of things that didn't work. But that won't really help because your situation will be different if for no other reason than the fact that we have different body chemistry and what works for one may not work for another, and vice versa.

 

If I have any advice to give on this subject, it would be to work on finding peace in yourself. I know this isn't easy. Relying on chemicals and supplements can be an expensive and potentially dangerous, never ending rabbit hole. I would counsel you to avoid it unless you're feeling suicidal. And if you are, get help immediately. Real, professional help.

 

I don't know how much I've spent trying to fix what was wrong with me and I don't want to know. If something had worked, and continued working, it would have been worth it. But as you can tell, it didn't work and a lot of money was wasted.

 

A few tricks I've found to find peace with yourself:

• Be thankful. For anything you can at that moment.
• When you realize you have a blessing, share it.
• Cut toxic people out of your life. It's hard, but after you have some success, it gets easier.
• Find a project to work on, preferably one that will benefit other people.
• Plan something to work on at night so when you wake up in the morning, you have a reason to get out of bed.
• Give a friend a real, loving hug.
• Be yourself. Not who someone else tells you who to be. That includes me.

I wish you all the best in your journey and I'll be around if you have any questions.

[BeachyKeen]

Oh I know.  I've been down many rabbit holes in the last 30 years.  Some worthwhile.  Some not so much.

 

Did you ever get any lab work / blood work?

 

Glad you stabilized and figured out something that works for you.

[LiveWell]

No, I never had any bloodwork done. My doctor would want to put me on some crazy meds with horrendous side effects and I'm just not into that. I still get low. But nowhere near as low as I used to get.

 

Mucuna, for me, was amazing. I felt like Superman. Not cocky, but confident. What other people thought of me didn't matter. I could do and say what I wanted without worrying. I wasn't callous or mean. But confident. And I have to admit that I still want that back. Which is why I started this: http://www.longecity...mine-receptors/

 

I still believe there's a way to up-regulate dopamine receptors, I just have to do a bit of experimenting. So I guess it's safe to say I haven't completely given up. ;-)

 

It's just a side project and I'm not putting a whole lot of time into it, but I am working on it slowly.

[LiveWell]

@BeachyKeen I thought I should give you an update of where I am and what I've experienced lately...

 

I decided to add something to the list above of things to help find some personal peace,

• Practice walking around with your shoulders back, in a positive posture

I did this for a few days and it was helping. Then I got some Ginkgo Biloba and Panax Ginseng for a bit of energy and mental acuity for my studies. Suddenly throwing my shoulders back was a lot more normal. If felt good, rather than contrived. My mental state improved a bit within a few hours. I now drink a couple bottles a day as they're quite small. The box was $12 for 30 doses. Essentially that comes to about $25 bucks a month and I like it enough to buy a case, but I'm trying to find a more affordable means of it for now.

 

I'll let you know more in a couple weeks after the current box is gone and the caps have showed up.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

Stay away from 5htp, tryptophan and anything that is only serotonergic. It's almost certainly useless and might worsen your problem. Don't buy into estrogen-brained approaches to solving depression.. 

 

p5p has strong antidepressive properties. It raises the 3 neurotransmitters implicated in mood (but scrap the serotonin nonsense model and you only got 2).

[LiveWell]

Stay away from 5htp, tryptophan and anything that is only serotonergic. It's almost certainly useless and might worsen your problem. Don't buy into estrogen-brained approaches to solving depression..

 

5HTP has been an absolute god-send. It's great, just not for regular usage. Some days it enables me to keep going and not take my depression out on other people. At this point in life, I rarely use it, but I'm glad to know that it's available when I need it.

 

That being said, I will look into P5P. I'd never heard of it specifically. I know of Vitamin B6, but now have to look into the different forms of it and see what's what.

 

Thank you for sharing your P5P information.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

 

Stay away from 5htp, tryptophan and anything that is only serotonergic. It's almost certainly useless and might worsen your problem. Don't buy into estrogen-brained approaches to solving depression..

 

5HTP has been an absolute god-send. It's great, just not for regular usage. Some days it enables me to keep going and not take my depression out on other people. At this point in life, I rarely use it, but I'm glad to know that it's available when I need it.

 

That being said, I will look into P5P. I'd never heard of it specifically. I know of Vitamin B6, but now have to look into the different forms of it and see what's what.

 

Thank you for sharing your P5P information.

 

I think what you are experiencing is apathy. High serotonin tends to cause depression, moodiness, irritability and anxiety. Very, very high serotonin tends to cause apathy or emotional numbing, etc. 

I bet your response to 5htp is the latter, that you are oversaturating the serotonergic receptors just like with SSRI users. SSRIs can cause apathy as an immediate effect.

Serotonin is strongly implicated in depression, from my experience. 

 

The serotonin model of depression is mostly garbage, if it's at all true then it's for such a tiny minority.

[LiveWell]

Thank you for the clinical diagnosis. I appreciate you taking the time to solve all my problems as well as letting me know that your experience is all that matters and that everyone should subscribe to your beliefs and experiences.

 

How much do I owe you for your services? I'll be glad to pay you so that I can leave the office and get on with my life.

[jack black]

OP, have you tried any NMDA antagonists like memantine, lamictal, or tianeptine? NMDA antagonists brake tolerance to opiates and likely to other stimulants too. Read this: http://www.bluelight...ecdotal-reports

[LiveWell]

OP, have you tried any NMDA antagonists like memantine, lamictal, or tianeptine? NMDA antagonists brake tolerance to opiates and likely to other stimulants too. Read this: http://www.bluelight...ecdotal-reports

 

@JackBlack I have had a bit of success with DXM (in a gel cap, no other active ingredients) but I haven't experimented with the others. Certainly willing to do so.