13 replies to this topic

[Ric Rhodiola]

Hello guys, lets talk adaptogenic herbs, more specifically Ashwagandha and Rhodiola.
I suffer from general anxiety, brain fog, memory problems, chronic fatigue - you know, same old story. I've changed my diet, started doing more exercise (gym 3 times a week), meditating and taking supplementation for energy, imune system and brain function. I've noticed some minor improvements but overall I was feeling the same. However I have to say that meditation is really something for memory and focus - but still, NOT ENOUGH :/. 
So on a lucky day I crossed paths with this miracle herb called Ashwagandha, also known as the "Smell of the horse". Amazing herb, finally a supplement that actually works, rather than only in the background. You can actually feel the change! 
So here's the thing about Ashwagandha, it truly reduces anxiety, you feel calm and almost in a zen state, your memory and reaction time improves dramatically, your mood is uplifted, but I still feel fatigued, lathergic and without the mental stamina to finish my long day. Strangely enough, Ashwagandha sometimes makes me jitter and tremble a little bit, even though it makes me feel super calm.
So, I've done a little more research and I discovered Rhodiola and ohhh man that s**t is amazing. Three days after the first dosage, I was working like I never did before; working in an intense, brutal way. I felt like a Freakin' WARRIOR!!
Even those tedious little anxious tasks - that you totally have to do, but eventually you choose to procrastinate - are manageable and easy to cope with Rhodiola.
But here's the catch, since it's a stimulant, when stress starts to build up it messes with my memory, the words don't come out properly and overall I feel like my anxiety kicks in again. 
To conclude, with Ashwagandha: 

• I'm calm and easy going; 
• I'm mentally clear;
• Words and thoughts are expressed accordingly;
• Reduction of anxiety;
• But I don't have enough energy to get the job done;

With Rhodiola:

• I can cope with any stress;
• Have sustainable amounts of energy;
• Feel extremely focused;
• But, I forget things easily;
• More difficulty communicating and expressing myself;

Like many souls suggest, I'm currently I'm taking two doses of Rhodiola (300mg/each), one pill in the morning and another on lunch time (It's when I usually get more tired). When the evening pops up, I supplement with Ashwagandha(1-2 ml) two/three times when needed, the last one always being before night time.

I would like to know if instead of using this pattern, if it is possible to take them together trough out the day. And if so, how should I take them and what are the best dosages - at the moment I'm following the precise dosages recommended in the bottle.
For a simple average joe like me, it makes sense to stack them like together so one can get best of both worlds. Rhodiola energy boost and Ashwagandha calming effects, but at the same time I get this feeling that one will cut out the other.
Well but my opinion it's worth what is worth, I need other points of views, preferably fundamented with scientific knowledge and precision. 
The internet is packed with amazing content and studies about this herbs, but I also find a lot of speculation, oxymorons and charlatans trying to sell supplements(...) and sometimes it's to much for my tinny foggy brain to process.
I don't know if it's relevant, but I also supplement with fish oil, prebiotics, Vitamin B complex w/ vitamin D and magnesium to sleep.
Let me know if it's needed a more exhaustive list with grams/brands/time and current diet.
Current adaptogenic herbs:

• Ashwagandha root extract super concentrated from Nature's answer;
• Freeze dried extract Rhodiola from Terra Nova 300 mg - average assay: 3% rosavins / 1% salidroside:

Thank you for your time guys.

Best Regards

 
 

[birthdaysuit]

 

 

"Even those tedious little anxious tasks - that you totally have to do, but eventually you choose to procrastinate - are manageable and easy to cope with Rhodiola.

But here's the catch, since it's a stimulant, when stress starts to build up it messes with my memory, the words don't come out properly and overall I feel like my anxiety kicks in again."

 

 

 

 

I agree, Rhodiola Rosea is great for stress induced activities and even better after the fact because it lowers cortisol. Generally speaking each brand of Rhodiola is different, some have higher concentrations of Rosavins, while others have higher concentrations of Salidrosides. The standard ratio is 3% Rosavins and 1% Salidrosides. Rosavins are serotonergic, while salidrosides have a dopaminergic effect. If you up the dosage Rhodiola will feel like a sedative, keeping the dosage low will be more stimulating but this all depends on the the R:S ratio.

 

I stopped taking Rhodiola for the reasons you described, it makes it more difficult to communicate and express yourself, it didn’t feel good. Peptides are elevated as a result of taking Rhodiola Rosea. Peptides being more specifically Arginine Vasopressin, implicated in anxiety and depression. Arginine Vasopressin stimulates cortisol release, even more so than Corticotropin-Releasing Hormone. Neurotensin would be the other one, which appears to disincentivize d2 receptor effects as well as decrease dopamine concentration in Ventral Tegmental. Hence, potential side effects upon prolonged usage. 

 

I think altered PREP activity may be associated with ASD and various psychological diseases such as schizophrenia, mania and clinical depression. More recent studies have demonstrated that inhibition of the same enzyme actually results in alleviation of depressive symptoms. So I’m not so sure about long-term Rhodiola use. 

 

 

 

Edited by birthdaysuit, 08 March 2016 - 01:55 AM.

[Ric Rhodiola]

@birthdaysuit thank you for the quick reply bro. It's good to know that someone is experiencing the same effects the way I do.
I'm using the 3 rosavins: 1 ratio, freezed dried Rhodiola.
I've taken a rhodiola pill mixed with ashwagndha this morning. One hour after taking effect, I felt awesome for one hour and a half. Energetic, extremely happy, focused, calm, physically and mentally strong. Best of both worlds! But it was down the road afterwards. I was calm, but felt super unhappy and lethargic. It's like my lips were sewied toghether, I couldn't smile anymore.
But still great stuff. Let's talk new alternatives for a near future. I'm looking for something that would give me mental clarity, help with memory and give me the right amount of energy to focus. Any particular adaptogen for brain function?
Thank you for fast reply.

Edited by Ric Rhodiola, 08 March 2016 - 01:47 PM.

[birthdaysuit]

@birthdaysuit thank you for the quick reply bro. It's good to know that someone is experiencing the same effects the way I do.
I'm using the 3 rosavins: 1 ratio, freezed dried Rhodiola.
I've taken a rhodiola pill mixed with ashwagndha this morning. One hour after taking effect, I felt awesome for one hour and a half. Energetic, extremely happy, focused, calm, physically and mentally strong. Best of both worlds! But it was down the road afterwards. I was calm, but felt super unhappy and lethargic. It's like my lips were sewied toghether, I couldn't smile anymore.
But still great stuff. Let's talk new alternatives for a near future. I'm looking for something that would give me mental clarity, help with memory and give me the right amount of energy to focus. Any particular adaptogen for brain function?
Thank you for fast reply.

How’s your diet, are you a vegetarian? For me the only supplement that worked well for energy, sociability, motivation, clear mind was 3-8g of creatine everyday. Not the dosage a bodybuilder takes, just enough to get me going. The effect is very noticeable and it is great for depression and anxiety. And because you have to consume more water with creatine you feel hydrated and rejuvenated. I’ve tried hundreds of herbs and supplements, creatine had the most noticeable effect for motivation and energy. Magnesium malate helps to calm me down and ashwagandha is good but it fucked with my thyroid so I had to stop. For good calming herbs you can look into Passionflower, hops, valerian, lemon balm, skullcap and lavender. Personally, I liked passionflower, valerian, lavender and lemon balm for anxiety.  

[Ric Rhodiola]

How’s your diet, are you a vegetarian? For me the only supplement that worked well for energy, sociability, motivation, clear mind was 3-8g of creatine everyday. Not the dosage a bodybuilder takes, just enough to get me going. The effect is very noticeable and it is great for depression and anxiety. And because you have to consume more water with creatine you feel hydrated and rejuvenated. I’ve tried hundreds of herbs and supplements, creatine had the most noticeable effect for motivation and energy. Magnesium malate helps to calm me down and ashwagandha is good but it fucked with my thyroid so I had to stop. For good calming herbs you can look into Passionflower, hops, valerian, lemon balm, skullcap and lavender. Personally, I liked passionflower, valerian, lavender and lemon balm for anxiety.  

 

 

I'm not a vegetarian. I have a varied diet. Every week I range between beef, poultry and fish (Usually wild-caught salmon). I try to include lots of vegetables as well so I can include the maximum of vitamins and nutrients. Apart from the veggies, I only eat complex carbs, like brown rice and sweet potatoes. 
When it comes to processed foods and specially foods with added sugar I keep it to a minimum. However I do eat canned beans 2/3 times a week.
Sugar usually comes from fruit, but sometimes I do indulge in a sugary snack once/twice a week.
I don't go to over the top with it, I keep it nice and simple. I will continue experimenting with Rhodiola until the end of the week and I'll let you know how I'm feeling. 
The effects are intriguing me, sometimes I feel really good with it, sometimes really bad. I know it's something with potential, but maybe it's not for me. One thing it definitely does is eliminating jitters and shakes. I usually have a slight, minor shake on my right hand, and it's completely gone with Rhodiola. If I take Ashwagandha for example, the shaking comes back.
Taking in consideration what you said - thank you very much for such an elucidative reply - I've done some extra research on the matter, and I'm considering Creatine or Bacopa as an alternative. Bacopa seems to be more what I'm looking for in the herbal department. It functions as an adaptogen and nootropic to enhance memory and combat anxiety.
I still have a lot of research and self-experimentation head (which I'm not kin btw), but it seems like the only way to enlightenment. Unfortunately I feel that anxiety disorders are still a big taboo in the medical isles and they usually try to sell you the next best anti-depressant drug or give you a little bit of tough love - because you're young and shit and should be healthy. Oh well, the best medicine it's to laugh, just carry on and do what you can with the knowledge you have and with the kindness of strangers - brought to you by the internet xD.
Just to finish, I also do the magnesium at night time and it's the best thing for a relaxed sleep.
I do appreciate all the information and effort given my friend and I'll keep you up to date. 

Best Regards

[gamesguru]

I would say 1 dose of ash, and half a dose of rhodiola.  Also great to combine with a high quality japanese sencha

 

other considerations

kava, bacopa, lemon balm
gotu kola, valerian

ginkgo and ginseng

 

taurine, tryptophan, tyrosine, glutamine
melatonin and inositol

 

lingzi mushroom
low dose lithium
omega-3 (plant-based ALA is fine)

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[Barfly]

I would say 1 dose of ash, and half a dose of rhodiola.  Also great to combine with a high quality japanese sencha

 

other considerations

kava, bacopa, lemon balm
gotu kola, valerian

ginkgo and ginseng

 

taurine, tryptophan, tyrosine, glutamine
melatonin and inositol

 

lingzi mushroom
low dose lithium
omega-3 (plant-based ALA is fine)

 

Thank you for sharing, really impressed by the theanine and EC content in sencha tea, both compounds that I am thinking of supplementing with.

 

The only thing missing from the table is preparation method and dosage, do you know how many grams of tea you have to steep in order to get these numbers?

[gamesguru]

The only thing missing from the table is preparation method and dosage, do you know how many grams of tea you have to steep in order to get these numbers?

 

15 g/L.  They also pulverized it in a blender or mortar & pestle, kept the water on a Bunsen burner to maintain a gentle boil, and steeped 10 minutes.  Expect some bitter stuff, mate. Btw, have a look on my profile for recs to three quality tea suppliers.

Edited by gamesguru, 09 March 2016 - 12:25 PM.

[birthdaysuit]

 

The only thing missing from the table is preparation method and dosage, do you know how many grams of tea you have to steep in order to get these numbers?

 

15 g/L.  They also pulverized it in a blender or mortar & pestle, kept the water on a Bunsen burner to maintain a gentle boil, and steeped 10 minutes.  Expect some bitter stuff, mate. Btw, have a look on my profile for recs to three quality tea suppliers.

 

Why waste the sencha leafs, haha. The bitter the better. 

[gamesguru]

15 g/L is not excessive, nor is pulverization wasteful. on the contrary it increases particular cross-sectional surface area, increasing diffusion and brewing a thicker tea

 

and if you think you can tolerate any bitterness, i suggest uncapsuled green tea EXTRACT, which is mind-numbingly bitter.

[Ric Rhodiola]

Hello guys, 

First of all thank you for the great information and for the time you took sharing it. I want to share my experience after a week taking only Rhodiola. As mentioned before I'm using Terra Nova's Rhodiola 300mg freeze dried extract, 3% rosavins : 1% salidroside ratio , 2 caps a day (one morning/another around 4pm). I've to say that my opinion about Rhodiola definitely changed and I understand now the awesome benefits of it. It doesn't give you a feeling of tranquillity like ashwagandha; however it gives you a strong feeling of control and that is very empowering. I don't get anxious or stressed by it any more. I can cope really well with stressful situations now, like I never did before. Since you accomplish more, you activate your reward system in your brain and you feel better about yourself and the way you interact with people. I don't feel awkward around people so often like I did before and I'm more articulate with words. 
The overall feeling of control - as mentioned before - is not comparable to a relaxed state. However this feeling of control is very rewarding because you feel that nothing can virtually break you down and as a consequence you'll be more productive, sociable and engage in activities that you wouldn't otherwise . In my opinion, it also helps you build up resistance against stress, since you'll engage more times in stressful situations, your brain eventually will learn to adapt and deal with them in a more efficient way.
In terms of performance, you'll feel extreme focus and a slight memory improvement. This memory improvement must be correlated with the decrease of anxiety or stress that blur your memory. However, don't expect out of the world memory improvement or improvement in cognition processes. It works great for mental/physical stamina, endurance and offers some mind clarity as well as memory.
It has a catch though. Sleep, sleep and sleep a lot!! This adaptogen will drain you out, it gets you there, but I feel that if you don't get a good solid 8:00 to 8:30 hour sleep, you'll feel like s**t the other day. Well this isn't a miracle herb, So I assume this isn't a surprise for any of you. Sometimes it may be a little unpredictable in regards to precision when it kicks in and even in the way it affects your general mood. 
In general, great herb, totally recommend. Definitely checking out more of this amazing herbal blends and try out some of your suggestions. Sorry if this post isn't detailed enough, but I'm feeling very tired today - long day at work, performed wonderfully thanks to my magic herb. 
Best of luck for all of you starting your natural nootropic adventure. I'll be posting new stacks and combinations soon. 
Cheers

[88Herbs]

Hi guys,

 

I wanted to add a bit of info that may be helpful for anyone considering combining ashwagandha and rhodiola.  Personally I love the combo and have been taking them together for a long time. They are both adaptogens and both reduce the stress hormone cortisol.  Generally speaking, ashwagandha tends to be more relaxing and rhodiola is more stimulating.  

 

Although many people do find rhodiola works well for anxiety, you need to be careful as rhodiola is not advised for anyone who is manic (bipolar).  

 

As mentioned in some of the other posts on this thread, not all products are the same.  Rhodiola varies greatly in potency (the % of active ingredients - rosavins and salidrosides).  It also matters where the rhodiola is grown and how it is harvested.  

 

Ashwagandha varies even more.  The % of active ingredients in ashwagandha (the withanolides) vary a lot.  Also some products use an extract from the root, other products use the whole plant, and some use mainly the leaves.  The effects are quite different for each product.  

 

Here is an article that goes into the benefits of ashwagandha and rhodiola both separately and together.  

 

If you want to start with 1 product to see, I would start with ashwagandha.  Then you can consider adding rhodiola - just be careful if you have manic tendencies, as some people prefer ashwagandha alone to the combination when it comes to helping with anxiety.

 

It should be noted that the combination does have other benefits than just helping with anxiety.  You can experience improved mental and physical stamina, reduced stress levels, and improved mental focus - among other things.

[John250]

The Salidroside has the most health benefits. I use this:

https://www.natriumh...de-tyrosol.html

[jroseland]

Ashwagandha is the anxiolytic Adaptogen, all of the Adaptogens make your body better at handling stress but Ashwagandha is probably the best. If you have a problem with stress or anxiety Ashwagandha is for you! In my deep-dive Ashwagandha meta-analysis article/podcast (linked below), I delve into "The Paradox of Anxiety." I make the case that anxiety is also an inevitable side effect of ambition. I will suggest that if you don't suffer from a little anxiety you're not really ambitious. THIS is why the high-performer NEEDS tools like adaptogenic herbs...

 

Watch: An Herbal Alternative to Melatonin - Biohacker Review of ORGANIC INDIA's Ashwagandha