17 replies to this topic

[health_nutty]

Background: Healthy 40yo male, exercise with weights and do cardio / sprinting 4x a week.  Very healthy diet. Have struggled with moderate to severe depression / anxiety for the last 15-20 years.  Nothing in my life situation is wrong, I have a great job, awesome wife and kids, some stressors with work, but nothing to warrant the level of depression I was feeling.  It was a mixture of severe guilt over minor mistakes, pending sense of doom for no ration reason, suicidial thoughts (more that I wanted to escape what I was feeling than actually making plans).  I've researched and tried natural approaches with varying degree of success (at least for some time).  I tried high quality St John's Wort, fish oil, magnesium, lithium orotate, bacopa, uridine, fish oil, green tea, dhea, exercise, meditation, reading Eckhart Tolle.  

 

About 6 weeks ago I was was feeling particularly down and decided I need to do something more drastic.  I really did NOT want to live like that anymore.  I was considering going the SSRI route, but then stumbled across Tianeptine.  After doing a lot of research I really liked the minimal side effects and hopefully it will help repair stress damaged dendrites:

http://www.tianeptin...ic-atrophy.html

 

Okay enough background here is my review: 

Dosage: 15mg 3 times a day (from bulk powder)

 

It took 5 weeks to really kick in (prescription label says 6 to 8 weeks for full effect).  This was really true in my case.  I knew this was the case going in, so I kept faithfully taking the same dosage 3 times a day.  The first few weeks all I felt were the side effects (slight fatigue, slight buzz, occasionally had a headache).  Gradually these went away.  Do NOT confuse the side effects going away with tolerance, and do NOT increase the dose.  

 

This is the happiest I've felt in a long long time.  No crushing generalized anxiety/extreme overreactions to minor mistakes.  I just feel normal and its great!  I'll post some follow ups to this thread in a few weeks.  

 

I continue to take 400mg magnesium, 5mg of lithium orotate, 2 grams of omega 3's, matcha green tea, 25mg dhea, and curcumin.    I feel these are good for general health.

 

I haven't noticed any nootropic effects but I wasn't specifically looking for them.  

[Ames]

I have the superficial knowledge that it acts to assist in Serotonin uptake. Do you consider dendritic regrowth to, instead, be Tianeptine's primary effect?

 

Is there any science that might indicate that its mechanism of action could ultimately lead to permanent changes, or do you expect to require continuous dosing?

 

When did you start taking the other supplements in your stack? Does the possibility exist that they could also have led to a five week effect?

 

Are you concerned with the MOR agonist action of Tianeptine?

 

Thanks for sticking with this long enough to realize a five week effect, and thanks for coming back to post.

Edited by golgi1, 17 March 2016 - 05:32 PM.

[health_nutty]

It seems like the exact mechanism is not known for sure:

"The neurobiological properties of tianeptine involve a dynamic interplay between numerous neurotransmitter systems and the critical ability 1) to restore normal neuroplasticity in circumscribed limbic brain regions and 2) to reverse stress-induced impairments in synaptic glutamate transmission, which plays crucial roles in virtually all key functions perturbed in depressed states. The effects of tianeptine on the glutamatergic system could provide a key action in the cascade of events triggered by this unique compound, and may represent the most proximal target in the pathway leading to its antidepressant efficacy."

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2902200/

 

There are some hints that it leads to permanent changes.  (neuroplasticty, long term effectiveness, reduction in stress induced damage). However, I couldn't find any specific study that showed it's effectiveness after stopping treatment.  

 

I started taking the other supplements in the the stack years ago, so tianeptine was the only new addition.

 

I'm of course concerned about the MOR agonist activity.  In fact this is probably the reason for its potential for abuse. However,  the long term studies showed relatively few side effects / issues.  I think it is very important to stick with the recommended dosage.  Even with the recommended dosage there is risk, but in my state I felt it was worth the risk (seems lower risk than SSRI's for example).  

 

 

I have the superficial knowledge that it acts to assist in Serotonin uptake. Do you consider dendritic regrowth to, instead, be Tianeptine's primary effect?

 

Is there any science that might indicate that its mechanism of action could ultimately lead to permanent changes, or do you expect to require continuous dosing?

 

When did you start taking the other supplements in your stack? Does the possibility exist that they could also have led to a five week effect?

 

Are you concerned with the MOR agonist action of Tianeptine?

 

Thanks for sticking with this long enough to realize a five week effect, and thanks for coming back to post.

 

[health_nutty]

Is there any science that might indicate that its mechanism of action could ultimately lead to permanent changes, or do you expect to require continuous dosing?

 

Interesting that progressive improvements have be observed up to a year (even though short term it is as effective as other SSRI's).

"Progressive therapeutic improvements have been observed with up to 1 year of tianeptine treatment, and long term therapy may reduce the rate of relapse or recurrence."

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/7774514

[Londonscouser]

May i ask if you could describe the type and symptoms of your anxiety & depression ?

 

I think i have the same problem

[health_nutty]

May i ask if you could describe the type and symptoms of your anxiety & depression ?

 

I think i have the same problem

 

Anxiety always present, feelings of impending doom for no rational reason.  Feelings of worthlessness especially when something goes wrong (even small).  Feelings of guilt over small mistakes.  Waking up in the morning not wanting to face the world.  Not taking pleasure in life.  Feeling a bit down as well.  Sometimes the guilt and anxiety would feel almost physical like a pressure in my chest (definitely not heart related, I've had that checked).

 

 I still have some ups and downs, but it is much much better.  

[health_nutty]

Checking in after two weeks.  Antidepressant effect is still good and is possibly getting stronger.  Definitely is helping have a healthy response to stressful / negative situations.

Also very nice that the mild fatigue and slight head buzz are gone.  Some people may be mistaking this for tolerance or are perhaps seeking this effect and calling it tolerance when it goes away.  I see it as a side effect while the antidepressant effect is getting stronger.  Very nice compound.   

[fntms]

I agree with what is said here, I have been taking tianeptine for some years now for general anxiety and panic at the regular 3x12.5 mg dose (pharma pills and or the powders you can find 'otc').
I have not noticed any tolerance. I do find the powders (diluted in pg) a little too stimulating/buzz giving, at similar doses, not sure why.
But I have decided to take a few months break in case the MOR issue can somehow worsen my fertility problem (I understand there are mo receptors in the testes that shouldn't be messed with).
Alas the anxiety that this problem has caused (thanks to shockingly blunt doctors) will have to take care of itself alone (as well as my neck pain).
I have started tapering to 2x a day with no issues, next week will be 1x day.

[scarchin]

Wow!
Glad I found this post.
Me - 50 y.o. male struggling with the type of depression issues you very precisely described. Was initiated by some personal upheaval that has since resolved very positively. However, the ensuing depression/anxiety did not "reset." It is as if a switch is stuck somewhere.
Cognitively I am very aware of what reality is but my emotions are acting counter to reason and logic.
Slight difference for me is that the morning dread and upset typically lift at around 5 pm.  I think "It's over! I'm cured!" but then - like Groundhog Day - the cycle starts over between 4 - 5 am.
During the height of my upset I was on Paxil for about a year. Muted the feelings, but they were still there. Didn't like the "underwater" feeling. Got off it about a year or so ago.
I was resigned to a life of cycling depression and rumination until I earned about this drug.
I've been taking 25 mg capsule of the sulphate for about a week. I want to be VERY careful not to overdo it.
So far - my first day was really good but I suspect placebo effect.  Since then - okay.
I read somewhere that when someone has been depressed for a while, not being depressed feels weird at first. I think that that may be happening. Not sure.
The stuff is pricey - but amounts to the cost of a large coffee every day - Very worth it IMHO.
Please update on your experience!
Thank you!

[Heisenburger]

The stuff is pricey - but amounts to the cost of a large coffee every day - Very worth it IMHO.

 

I think people make too much of an issue of the cost of tianeptine. I’ve spent dozens of hours reading anecdotal reports on various Internet fora from people who overdid it and eventually became addicted, and even the worst of the worst scenarios I’ve come across really amount to no more than the financial strain that a typical pack-a-day cigarette smoker is encumbered with. If it works for you, then your cup-of-coffee analogy is right on the mark. You can just keep right on going when you pass the Starbucks on the way to work. There’s no need to stop when you have a jar of Folgers Instant in the cupboard at home.

 

[health_nutty]

Update. I went on a 3 week trip overseas were I did not take any tianeptine. I had no issues with withdrawal.

[health_nutty]

Duplicate

Edited by health_nutty, 24 July 2016 - 05:22 PM.

[Junk Master]

Just wanted to add that I've taken Prozac, Zoloft, Bupropion, Lexapro, Effexor, and Pristiq for depression and found none of those to be useful longterm solutions (Pristiq was the closest) and although my depression is currently under control due to both the years of medication and years of CBT and a good therapist, I have decided to trial tianeptine for over 5 weeks for residual anxiety problems and as an aid to cutting/withdrawing from Clonazepam, which I still take on a .5 mg per day basis.

 

While I've seen numerous comments on it's expense, if bought through OTC (Ebay/reputable sources...i.e. a well known member here) in large powder quantities, it's pretty darn reasonable compared to many, many other nootropic compounds.

 

So far I've been taking it for 3 weeks again (I've used it in the past, off and on, with decent results for anxiety-- though sometimes at such a high level, 50 mg per day in divided doses with another 12.5 before bed, that it caused in constipation and unpleasant gastro sides.)

 

So far, so good.

 

What I'd like to do next is to add fasoracetam  and continue to use the two for another 8 weeks.

[Mind_Paralysis]

Hmm, well, Fasoracetam does seem to be a weak anxiolytic at certain doses - that GABA-upregulation and all.

But is there any particular synergy you hypothesize in the combo? Or is it just that you want to try the potential cognitive enhancements of Faso?
(I would say it's a good choice since it doesn't burn through choline as much as other racetams, and has a generally good profile)

Anyways, keep us posted, since it's a somewhat unusual combo! : )

Hmm... Tianeptine modulates glutamate and Faso directly agonises mGlur 2 and 3 receptors... Not sure what would happen to be honest!

[Hyperflux]

Does tianeptine sulfate also require a 6 week period for its full effects to manifest? It's been 16 days that I've been dosing 50mg once in the morning on an empty stomach. It definitely has nice AD properties, it makes life more beautiful. The problem is that I find it a bit too anxiolitic as an individual with low baseline anxiety. It makes me less motivated and lazier, it kind of gets rid of that "fire under your butt" so to speak. Also the fatigue side effect is still present.

[Mind_Paralysis]

Does tianeptine sulfate also require a 6 week period for its full effects to manifest? It's been 16 days that I've been dosing 50mg once in the morning on an empty stomach. It definitely has nice AD properties, it makes life more beautiful. The problem is that I find it a bit too anxiolitic as an individual with low baseline anxiety. It makes me less motivated and lazier, it kind of gets rid of that "fire under your butt" so to speak. Also the fatigue side effect is still present.

 

Have you tried lowering the dose to about 40 mg's, but dividing it up? As I understand it, you're supposed to dose Tianeptine more than once throughout the day, to get an even effect. (short duration of effect)

 

So, say... 20 mg 08.00, 10 mg 12.00, and 10 mg 16.00. Might be an option, yeah? Sometimes even a small change like this in dosage, is the right way to go.

[health_nutty]

Does tianeptine sulfate also require a 6 week period for its full effects to manifest? It's been 16 days that I've been dosing 50mg once in the morning on an empty stomach. It definitely has nice AD properties, it makes life more beautiful. The problem is that I find it a bit too anxiolitic as an individual with low baseline anxiety. It makes me less motivated and lazier, it kind of gets rid of that "fire under your butt" so to speak. Also the fatigue side effect is still present.

 

50mg is a huge dose!  It has a short half life and needs to be dosed 3 to 4 times a day.  You really should split up 50mg over 3 - 4 smaller doses.  15mg, 4 times a day should be both more effective and have fewer side effects.

[stan08]

 

Does tianeptine sulfate also require a 6 week period for its full effects to manifest? It's been 16 days that I've been dosing 50mg once in the morning on an empty stomach. It definitely has nice AD properties, it makes life more beautiful. The problem is that I find it a bit too anxiolitic as an individual with low baseline anxiety. It makes me less motivated and lazier, it kind of gets rid of that "fire under your butt" so to speak. Also the fatigue side effect is still present.

 

50mg is a huge dose!  It has a short half life and needs to be dosed 3 to 4 times a day.  You really should split up 50mg over 3 - 4 smaller doses.  15mg, 4 times a day should be both more effective and have fewer side effects.

 

 

He's taking tianeptine sulfate, not tianeptine sodium.  The dosing is different for the sulfate version.