231 replies to this topic

[Wilberforce]

Just to be clear on the Olive Leaf Extract question - would it work to tip a capsule (eg Swanson) into a bottle of pre-made c60oo (eg Vaughter) and shake?


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If so, should it be 2+? Looks like it's 1000mg.


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[Empiricus]

Just to be clear on the Olive Leaf Extract question - would it work to tip a capsule (eg Swanson) into a bottle of pre-made c60oo (eg Vaughter) and shake?

 

Twice I mixed pre-made c60oo from another vendor into liquid oleopein from olive leaf extract and that didn't prove helpful. Turnbuckle stirred c60 in fresh olive oil with oleopein and it didn't prove nearly effective as adding HT (see Turnbuckle's comments above).  

 

If you're thinking of doing this experiment because your bottle of pre-made c60oo has proven ineffective, I doubt this will make a difference. A number of us have decided to start from scratch with fresh olive oil purchased online. For example, I've since thrown away all the pre-made c60oo in my freezer.  

Edited by Empiricus, 24 May 2016 - 05:36 AM.

[Empiricus]

I've now taken 2 doses of c60 in olive oil (a late 2015 harvest from a village in central Peloponnese) into which I had stirred in well over 1,000 mg/L of hydroxytyrosol (Olea25).  I've described the process by which I formulated this solution above.   Doses were 1 week apart.  Midweek, between each c60 dose, I took 25 or 50 mg of HT.  

 

c60 Results:  I needed much more sleep, felt mild aches in the neck and back. Emotionally, I felt more easily agitated. Exercising, although I felt a bit lethargic, based on how many flights of stairs I could run up, I'd say my endurance increased about 20%. Within 48 hours of both doses, I received effusive unsolicited complements on the condition of my skin and hair from my girlfriend.  

 

HT Results:  I felt an aching in my back on 50 mg HT that was more bothersome than the very minor aches brought on by c60.  On the upside, I felt increased physical strength and energy. The boost in strength and energy was unmistakable.  Incidentally, I had not noticed these benefits when I had tried HT capsules prior to resuming c60. This has left me curious as to whether receiving the physical performance benefits of HT capsules requires that c60 be in your system already.  

Edited by Empiricus, 24 May 2016 - 06:46 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

 This has left me curious as to whether receiving the physical performance benefits of HT capsules requires that c60 be in your system already.  

 

While there may be some synergy, research has shown exercise benefits for HT alone.

 

Another benefit of HT is its protective effects on cartilage, which has been a problem with users of C60EVOO as C60 appears to increase exercise capacity without increasing the capacity of tendons. There are at least three patent applications claiming benefits--

 

Surprisingly, it has been found that hydroxytyrosol is effective in inducing or enhancing the proliferation of chondrocytes, stimulating the proliferation of cartilage cells and increasing their production of extracellular matrix components which as a consequence promotes cartilage repair and regeneration. Thus, hydroxytyrosol is useful for maintaining cartilage health, inducing or enhancing cartilage repair or cartilage regeneration as well as for treating cartilage lesions in joints of an animal including humans in particular in people with an active life style, sports people and obese subjects.

 

 

 

That said, HT should probably not be taken all the time as it seems to promote mitochondrial fusion over fission, and fission is important for quality control--

 

Hydroxytyrosol (HT), a natural olive polyphenol, efficiently enhanced endurance capacity and prevented Exe [excessive exercise]-induced renal and immune system damage. Also, HT treatment inhibited both the Exe-induced increase in autophagy and mitochondrial fission and the decrease in PGC-1α expression. In addition, HT enhanced mitochondrial fusion and mitochondrial complex I and II activities in muscle of Exe rats.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....chondria fusion

 

Edited by Turnbuckle, 24 May 2016 - 11:28 AM.

[Nate-2004]

I've now taken 2 doses of c60 in olive oil (a late 2015 harvest from a village in central Peloponnese) into which I had stirred in well over 1,000 mg/L of hydroxytyrosol (Olea25).  I've described the process by which I formulated this solution above.   Doses were 1 week apart.  Midweek, between each c60 dose, I took 25 or 50 mg of HT.  

 

c60 Results:  I needed much more sleep, felt mild aches in the neck and back. Emotionally, I felt more easily agitated. Exercising, although I felt a bit lethargic, based on how many flights of stairs I could run up, I'd say my endurance increased about 20%. Within 48 hours of both doses, I received effusive unsolicited complements on the condition of my skin and hair from my girlfriend.  

 

HT Results:  I felt an aching in my back on 50 mg HT that was more bothersome than the very minor aches brought on by c60.  On the upside, I felt increased physical strength and energy. The boost in strength and energy was unmistakable.  Incidentally, I had not noticed these benefits when I had tried HT capsules prior to resuming c60. This has left me curious as to whether receiving the physical performance benefits of HT capsules requires that c60 be in your system already.  

 

I'm experiencing quite the opposite. Since finishing my De Carlo olive oil (late 2015 harvest date) magnetically mixed with SES 99.95% for 5+ days.

 

I feel much sharper in thought, considerably more energy, my sleep is more intense, my work out yesterday felt easy.

 

However, it is possible that none of that is contributable to the C60OO. I also don't know how hold you are compared to me, I'm 42.

My stack is:

 

C60OO 

Nicotinamide Riboside 500mg to 1g+ per day.

Resveratrol / Pterostilbene 250/50 2x per day w/Niagen

Honokiol 200mg 1x per day w/Niagen

L-theanine 400mg 1hr before bed. (GABA)

Taurine + B6 1000/20mg 1hr before bed. (GABA)

Collagen Peptides 11g 1hr before bed

Melatonin 3mg 1hr before bed

 

It could be any one of these things or none of them. It could just be my diet or the excellent sleep I get. This is all one big expensive experiment but so far I feel fucking amazing. If that's a placebo effect, then it's one hell of a long lasting one.

Edited by Nate-2004, 24 May 2016 - 02:37 PM.

[Empiricus]

 

That said, HT should probably not be taken all the time as it seems to promote mitochondrial fusion over fission, and fission is important for quality control--

 

Hydroxytyrosol (HT), a natural olive polyphenol, efficiently enhanced endurance capacity and prevented Exe [excessive exercise]-induced renal and immune system damage. Also, HT treatment inhibited both the Exe-induced increase in autophagy and mitochondrial fission and the decrease in PGC-1α expression. In addition, HT enhanced mitochondrial fusion and mitochondrial complex I and II activities in muscle of Exe rats.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....chondria fusion

 

 

 

Any idea how much time should be spent trying to promote fusion relative to fission? Is it the case that growth require many days, whereas fission just a matter of zapping the zombies? Zap them and it's over? 

 

If there is a weekly Fusion Day (say the day people take c60) how many days might it be useful to support fusion by taking other antioxidants and maybe HT by itself?  

 

Your Zombie Protocol 2 points to fission promotion being a 1 day (per week?) thing.  Do you see yourself taking Nicotinamide Riboside and PQQ and Cinnamon on other days of the week?  Is fission likely to require supportive dosing of several of these "fission factors" and avoiding antioxidants for a few days? For example, I see that Nate's stack, above, includes daily Nicotinamide Riboside.  Just as you wouldn't advise taking HT or c60oo every day, I assume you wouldn't advise taking NR daily.  But for how many days a week might taking NR be a good idea?  

 

Any idea if intensive exercise is likely to be pro-fission or pro-fusion?  Over at your A protocol to upgrade mitochondria thread, you propose avoiding antioxidants on the fission days.   I've seen studies that suggest antioxidants may diminish some benefits of exercising.  Maybe people should exercise hardest on Fission Day?

 

If a person fasts 1 day per week, should they do their fasting on the Fusion Day or the Fission Day?  

Edited by Empiricus, 25 May 2016 - 04:26 AM.

[Empiricus]

I've now taken 2 doses of c60 in olive oil (a late 2015 harvest from a village in central Peloponnese) into which I had stirred in well over 1,000 mg/L of hydroxytyrosol (Olea25).  I've described the process by which I formulated this solution above.   Doses were 1 week apart.  Midweek, between each c60 dose, I took 25 or 50 mg of HT....

 

I forgot to mention that my first dose was 4 mg c60 and the second was 5 mg.  

 

I wonder if increasing the HT content means you can reduce the quantity of c60 you consume to achieve the same effect.  

Edited by Empiricus, 25 May 2016 - 04:48 AM.

[Nate-2004]

 

 

That said, HT should probably not be taken all the time as it seems to promote mitochondrial fusion over fission, and fission is important for quality control--

 

Hydroxytyrosol (HT), a natural olive polyphenol, efficiently enhanced endurance capacity and prevented Exe [excessive exercise]-induced renal and immune system damage. Also, HT treatment inhibited both the Exe-induced increase in autophagy and mitochondrial fission and the decrease in PGC-1α expression. In addition, HT enhanced mitochondrial fusion and mitochondrial complex I and II activities in muscle of Exe rats.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....chondria fusion

 

 

 

Any idea how much time should be spent trying to promote fusion relative to fission? Is it the case that growth require many days, whereas fission just a matter of zapping the zombies? Zap them and it's over? 

 

If there is a weekly Fusion Day (say the day people take c60) how many days might it be useful to support fusion by taking other antioxidants and maybe HT by itself?  

 

Your Zombie Protocol 2 points to fission promotion being a 1 day (per week?) thing.  Do you see yourself taking Nicotinamide Riboside and PQQ and Cinnamon on other days of the week?  Is fission likely to require supportive dosing of several of these "fission factors" and avoiding antioxidants for a few days? For example, I see that Nate's stack, above, includes daily Nicotinamide Riboside.  Just as you wouldn't advise taking HT or c60oo every day, I assume you wouldn't advise taking NR daily.  But for how many days a week might taking NR be a good idea?  

 

Any idea if intensive exercise is likely to be pro-fission or pro-fusion?  Over at your A protocol to upgrade mitochondria thread, you propose avoiding antioxidants on the fission days.   I've seen studies that suggest antioxidants may diminish some benefits of exercising.  Maybe people should exercise hardest on Fission Day?

 

If a person fasts 1 day per week, should they do their fasting on the Fusion Day or the Fission Day?  

 

 

I'd have to read more about the fusion over fission idea during my morning coffee. I'm not sure NR is the same thing as it has a lot more to do with activating and supplying Sirtuin enzymes with their NAD than being an antioxidant.

 

I'm being more liberal about the C60OO too, taking it every day till it runs out, then taking a break while I make more. That may not be the way to go. They did it differently in mouse trials but those were mice. We already have the problem that 8% of all mice and rat experiments translates to anything human... which makes this whole C60OO thing a shot in the dark for humans.

Edited by Nate-2004, 25 May 2016 - 05:46 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

 

 

That said, HT should probably not be taken all the time as it seems to promote mitochondrial fusion over fission, and fission is important for quality control--

 

Hydroxytyrosol (HT), a natural olive polyphenol, efficiently enhanced endurance capacity and prevented Exe [excessive exercise]-induced renal and immune system damage. Also, HT treatment inhibited both the Exe-induced increase in autophagy and mitochondrial fission and the decrease in PGC-1α expression. In addition, HT enhanced mitochondrial fusion and mitochondrial complex I and II activities in muscle of Exe rats.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....chondria fusion

 

 

 

Any idea how much time should be spent trying to promote fusion relative to fission? Is it the case that growth require many days, whereas fission just a matter of zapping the zombies? Zap them and it's over? 

 

If there is a weekly Fusion Day (say the day people take c60) how many days might it be useful to support fusion by taking other antioxidants and maybe HT by itself?  

 

Your Zombie Protocol 2 points to fission promotion being a 1 day (per week?) thing.  Do you see yourself taking Nicotinamide Riboside and PQQ and Cinnamon on other days of the week?  Is fission likely to require supportive dosing of several of these "fission factors" and avoiding antioxidants for a few days? For example, I see that Nate's stack, above, includes daily Nicotinamide Riboside.  Just as you wouldn't advise taking HT or c60oo every day, I assume you wouldn't advise taking NR daily.  But for how many days a week might taking NR be a good idea?  

 

Any idea if intensive exercise is likely to be pro-fission or pro-fusion?  Over at your A protocol to upgrade mitochondria thread, you propose avoiding antioxidants on the fission days.   I've seen studies that suggest antioxidants may diminish some benefits of exercising.  Maybe people should exercise hardest on Fission Day?

 

If a person fasts 1 day per week, should they do their fasting on the Fusion Day or the Fission Day?  

 

 

I'm not going to try to answer these question at this point, partly because I don't have the answers, and partly because this is getting lost in the details before the overall picture is established. Fission and fusion are both important, thus you don't want to be taking any supplement all the time that favors one over the other--

 

The importance of frequent mitochondrial fission and fusion events for cell survival was also not fully appreciated until fairly recently. Obvious reasons, such as accommodating cell growth, cell division, and the redistribution of mitochondria during differentiation, did not fully explain why mitochondria fuse nor did they explain the high frequencies of these occurrences. However, in more recent years, the biological relevance of these phenomena has become clear with the discovery of human diseases that are caused by mutations in fission and fusion proteins and the discovery of numerous connections with apoptosis and mitophagy... Mitochondrial fission and fusion are now considered cornerstones for cell survival because of their contributions to health and disease.

 

http://cshperspectiv.../6/a011072.full

 

 

The zombie protocol you linked to above is based on the idea that very large and defective mitochondria develop that escape fission (and thus escape mitophagy). So if a

protocol could be designed to enhance the natural cellular process to fission these mitochondria, they will be fed to lysosomes and thus will be gone until aging creates new ones. The efficiency of any protocol is unknown, however, as without the equipment available to researchers, it's impossible to know how many remain. All an individual can go on is the perception of general health and changes in his exercise capacity. As for screwing up the quality control process of mitophagy by taking supplements every day, I think this is very possible and it may explain some of the fading that is seen when taking substances like PQQ or C60. (Although there are other explanations, like homeostasis.) 

 

As for the role of exercise, it does indeed stimulate mitophagy and mitochondrial biogenesis, and in mice studies, this appears to mediated by the protein PGC‐1α--Role of PGC-1α during acute exercise-induced autophagy and mitophagy in skeletal muscle. One supplement that promotes PGC-1α is PQQ.

 

So exercise would likely help the zombie protocol, adding it after PQQ.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 25 May 2016 - 11:31 AM.

[Nate-2004]

All an individual can go on is the perception of general health and changes in his exercise capacity. 

 

I read through the Zombie Protocol threads and gathered that it was more about optimizing the time at which you take PQQ and NAM. I didn't see anything about NR in that thread unless you were abbreviating. 

 

This thread involves hypothesizing about C60 so let's just talk about that first. I've been taking the C60OO every day. Mainly because other people on this forum are doing the same and everyone seems to be taking it in different doses, possibly leading to a wide variety of results in the survey. Then again that's all self-reporting. The original Baati study wasn't about extending lifespans but rather testing toxicity of C60. The lifespan thing was an accident. Newer experiments with the rats are just repeating the same process. There's nothing but anecdotal evidence with regards to daily intake. From what I gathered Turnbuckle and correct me if I'm wrong but your reason for taking C60OO only once every week or two was not based on the rat experiment but rather how you felt on any given day, especially around exercise in conjunction with the C60 and the "fading" you experienced.

 

Before all this experimentation I'm doing with the stack I posted above, my exercise each day would be different regardless of what I took or didn't take. I'd have workouts that felt sluggish, like I was slugging my way through just to get my heart rate up. Other days I'd have workouts where the energy just kept coming and I'd get my heart rate up super quick. Some days my back would hurt and other days I'd be fine.

 

After this stack, I've felt more consistently energetic during workouts, though there was a day when I did feel this sluggishness, once last week for sure. That's not to say there won't be the "fading" you talk about eventually. My back still hurts on occasion, I still feel random pains like before, and yesterday I felt less energy than I do today, just like before C60. Monday I felt more energy and mental sharpness than I do today... but that's just like before C60.  I attribute yesterday's lack of energy to caffeine withdrawal. I drank coffee on both Sunday and Monday, two days back to back, when I usually don't. I try to space out my caffeine intake so that don't become dependent.

 

So I find it incredibly difficult to measure my reaction to C60 when everything is already so random to begin with and could be attributed to anything.  I don't think everyone can base their judgment on how they feel, especially if how they feel is always different based on so many factors outside of what supplements may or may not be affecting them. For instance how much *quality* sleep did I get the night before? Was I following good sleep hygiene? What have I been eating today? Did I eat an apple before a workout or did I eat a donut? What's my emotional state based on what's going on in my life? Are random pains due to just old age? Is what I'm feeling psychosomatic? Does my moderate depression have any effect on today (i.e. am I engaging in a lot of negative self-talk)?

 

I see a lot of reviews of Supplements on Amazon that say "I didn't notice anything." I imagine most supplements are something you can't measure from one day to the next, it's a long period of time thing and perhaps its imperceptible. Many are taken just to prevent problems and even then, some statistics show for some of those supplements that they prevent nothing in regards to what it was intended to prevent. C60 was fed to rats over a whole lifespan. It's hard to say whether those rats felt better or worse on the days when they were fed C60 but overall, it may have doubled their lifespan. Without long term studies extending beyond 100 years there's no way to determine what effect it's having on me. Not only that but the majority of the experiments on aging that worked well in dogs and rats and monkeys didn't translate to humans, the beta-amyloid vaccine for example, or Alagebrium. Not that we're debating the effects of C60 but to talk about immediate day to day effects before and after taking something, there's a tendency there to commit the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.  Whether it's the possibly random disappearance and reappearance of eczema attributed to the age of OO or the random aches and pains and tiredness that might occur on one day that one takes the C60.  It may all just be a wild goose chase to try and judge this upon daily before and after feelings and more worth it to crowdfund studies to answer all these questions.

 

My main point here:

 

This fission over fusion thing concerns me. Should I just have one or two days that are antioxidant and the rest of the days being "prooxidant"? That would save serious money on supplements for sure, but would it do anything? How can we know other than doing more studies, especially studies on humans?

 

Not trying to waste time here but I don't know if going by one's own perception of general health and exercise capacity from day to day is sufficient to figure out when to take C60 and/or other supps. Though I do like your zombie protocol idea because it'd be good to know when to take certain supps throughout the day based on what we know about how things work. Not to be annoying or critical but I just can't see basing it on self-perception of general health as a good methodology, even if that's all we have to go on.

Edited by Nate-2004, 25 May 2016 - 05:22 PM.

[Nate-2004]

With regards specifically to fission / fusion states, why wouldn't a morning vs. night protocol work any differently than a one day vs. the next protocol? Pulse administration of some supplements can sometimes result in a worse outcome than regular dosing (see NAC). 

 

Also, wouldn't a workout on its own induce the fission state that we're trying to keep in the balance? (If this is even a concern).

[Turnbuckle]

 

All an individual can go on is the perception of general health and changes in his exercise capacity. 

 

I read through the Zombie Protocol threads and gathered that it was more about optimizing the time at which you take PQQ and NAM. I didn't see anything about NR in that thread unless you were abbreviating. 

 

It's in the first post.

 

This thread involves hypothesizing about C60 so let's just talk about that first. I've been taking the C60OO every day. Mainly because other people on this forum are doing the same and everyone seems to be taking it in different doses, possibly leading to a wide variety of results in the survey. Then again that's all self-reporting. The original Baati study wasn't about extending lifespans but rather testing toxicity of C60.

 

About half the respondents in the C60 poll are taking it every day. And there's no good reason for it other than they buy into the anti-oxidant theory, even though anti-oxidants don't reliably extend lifespan. It's very likely that C60 is doing something else important. For instance, C60 is known to stimulate stem cells.

 

The lifespan thing was an accident.

 

I think that is unlikely. Moussa had been working with C60 in mice since before 1997, so he surely knew or suspected that this might happen. But if he had published such results, it could have cost him patent rights. 

 

Newer experiments with the rats are just repeating the same process. There's nothing but anecdotal evidence with regards to daily intake. From what I gathered Turnbuckle and correct me if I'm wrong but your reason for taking C60OO only once every week or two was not based on the rat experiment but rather how you felt on any given day, especially around exercise in conjunction with the C60 and the "fading" you experienced.

 

Indeed I began taking it every day in 2012, but quickly gave that up for a dosing protocol more closely aligned with what the rats recieved. 

 

Before all this experimentation I'm doing with the stack I posted above, my exercise each day would be different regardless of what I took or didn't take. I'd have workouts that felt sluggish, like I was slugging my way through just to get my heart rate up. Other days I'd have workouts where the energy just kept coming and I'd get my heart rate up super quick. Some days my back would hurt and other days I'd be fine.

 

After this stack, I've felt more consistently energetic during workouts, though there was a day when I did feel this sluggishness, once last week for sure. That's not to say there won't be the "fading" you talk about eventually. My back still hurts on occasion, I still feel random pains like before, and yesterday I felt less energy than I do today, just like before C60. Monday I felt more energy and mental sharpness than I do today... but that's just like before C60.  I attribute yesterday's lack of energy to caffeine withdrawal. I drank coffee on both Sunday and Monday, two days back to back, when I usually don't. I try to space out my caffeine intake so that don't become dependent.

 

So I find it incredibly difficult to measure my reaction to C60 when everything is already so random to begin with and could be attributed to anything.  I don't think everyone can base their judgment on how they feel, especially if how they feel is always different based on so many factors outside of what supplements may or may not be affecting them. For instance how much *quality* sleep did I get the night before? Was I following good sleep hygiene? What have I been eating today? Did I eat an apple before a workout or did I eat a donut? What's my emotional state based on what's going on in my life? Are random pains due to just old age? Is what I'm feeling psychosomatic? Does my moderate depression have any effect on today (i.e. am I engaging in a lot of negative self-talk)?

 

I see a lot of reviews of Supplements on Amazon that say "I didn't notice anything." I imagine most supplements are something you can't measure from one day to the next, it's a long period of time thing and perhaps its imperceptible. Many are taken just to prevent problems and even then, some statistics show for some of those supplements that they prevent nothing in regards to what it was intended to prevent. C60 was fed to rats over a whole lifespan. It's hard to say whether those rats felt better or worse on the days when they were fed C60 but overall, it may have doubled their lifespan. Without long term studies extending beyond 100 years there's no way to determine what effect it's having on me. Not only that but the majority of the experiments on aging that worked well in dogs and rats and monkeys didn't translate to humans, the beta-amyloid vaccine for example, or Alagebrium. Not that we're debating the effects of C60 but to talk about immediate day to day effects before and after taking something, there's a tendency there to commit the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.  Whether it's the possibly random disappearance and reappearance of eczema attributed to the age of OO or the random aches and pains and tiredness that might occur on one day that one takes the C60.  It may all just be a wild goose chase to try and judge this upon daily before and after feelings and more worth it to crowdfund studies to answer all these questions.

 

My main point here:

 

This fission over fusion thing concerns me. Should I just have one or two days that are antioxidant and the rest of the days being "prooxidant"? That would save serious money on supplements for sure, but would it do anything? How can we know other than doing more studies, especially studies on humans?

 

I take very few supplements every day. As for human trials with C60, you probably won't live long enough to benefit much.

 

Not trying to waste time here but I don't know if going by one's own perception of general health and exercise capacity from day to day is sufficient to figure out when to take C60 and/or other supps. Though I do like your zombie protocol idea because it'd be good to know when to take certain supps throughout the day based on what we know about how things work. Not to be annoying or critical but I just can't see basing it on self-perception of general health as a good methodology, even if that's all we have to go on.

 

I didn't say it was a good measure, I said it was the only measure we have. 

 

Edited by Turnbuckle, 25 May 2016 - 07:08 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

With regards specifically to fission / fusion states, why wouldn't a morning vs. night protocol work any differently than a one day vs. the next protocol? Pulse administration of some supplements can sometimes result in a worse outcome than regular dosing (see NAC). 

 

Also, wouldn't a workout on its own induce the fission state that we're trying to keep in the balance? (If this is even a concern).

 

 

If you do indeed have zombie mitochondria (and how would you know without rather expensive equipment?) then your lifestyle to date has not prevented them. And you are not trying to keep fission and fusion balanced during the protocol, you are trying to up the fission level as high as possible because otherwise those fat zombies will survive. As for when you want to do it, that is up to you.

[Nate-2004]

For instance, C60 is known to stimulate stem cells.

 

I found a thread on that but it's difficult to determine why that was concluded. What do you mean stimulate stem cells? Is there a reference for this somewhere? 

[Turnbuckle]

 

For instance, C60 is known to stimulate stem cells.

 

I found a thread on that but it's difficult to determine why that was concluded. What do you mean stimulate stem cells? Is there a reference for this somewhere? 

 

 

For water soluble C60--

Antioxidative fullerol promotes osteogenesis of human adipose-derived stem cells

 

For non-water soluble C60--

Fullerene mediates proliferation and cardiomyogenic differentiation of adipose-derived stem cells via modulation of MAPK pathway and cardiac protein expression

This study was rather clumsy as they used C60 nanoparticles of variable size and shape, but there was likely molecular C60 in there as well.

 

Besides these research reports, there have been a number of anecdotal reports here that suggest C60 acts to stimulate stem cells. These include hair regrowth (a paper on hair and C60), stronger and faster growing nails, better skin, scar disappearance, and one interesting report on a knee injury involving a stem cell injection and subsequent C60 use. In my personal use, I have found almost all of these effects, including growth of my feet by almost one shoe size in 4 years. My shoe size had been constant for forty years before C60.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 27 May 2016 - 12:25 AM.

[Empiricus]

I took my third dose -- about 6 mg of c60 in HT enriched c60. As with the previous 2 doses I felt lethargic exercising and thew in the towel early. Overcome by aches and fatigue prior to bedtime, I pretty much collapsed into bed, but didn't fall asleep very fast, then woke up in the middle of the night (don't usually do that).  Between the body aches and exhaustion, I'd say the after-effects of this last c60 dose ranks among my least pleasant.  

 

My nails seem to be growing much faster. There are improvements in my complexion for a few days that are no longer apparent after 5-6 days.

 

I'm making a batch of c60 in just the olive oil, in case negative symptoms I experience relate to sensitivity to something in the HT capsules.  I have quite a lot of faith in this EVOO because they told me the date of harvest, because I ordered it from an independent grower in Greece, and because the strong peppery taste and smell makes me think it has to be fresh.  The only thing that makes me wonder is the fact that my girlfriend doesn't like the smell of this oil, and prefers another olive oil.

Edited by Empiricus, 28 May 2016 - 04:28 AM.

[Nate-2004]

Yeah try just making it without the HT. Also how much sleep are you getting? You sure you don't have sleep apnea or something? That used to make me so lethargic all day before CPAP now I bounce off the walls. How often do you work out? I sometimes feel lethargic during workouts on some days without C60, slugging my way through, but it's random.  My 7th and last day/dose of my first 100ml was today and I felt fan-f'ing-tastic on the elliptical. It's good OO, peppery taste, De Carlo, SES 99.95%. I felt low energy yesterday and Tuesday but 5 of the 7 days have been super high energy.

 

I'll be breaking from almost everything for a week and then doing it again. Only thing I'm continuing to take till then is the L-theanine and Taurine/B6 at night with Collagen Peptides and possibly D3. You should try that for quality sleep.

Edited by Nate-2004, 28 May 2016 - 04:34 AM.

[Nate-2004]

About half the respondents in the C60 poll are taking it every day. And there's no good reason for it other than they buy into the anti-oxidant theory, even though anti-oxidants don't reliably extend lifespan. It's very likely that C60 is doing something else important. For instance, C60 is known to stimulate stem cells.

 

This fission over fusion thing concerns me. Should I just have one or two days that are antioxidant and the rest of the days being "prooxidant"? That would save serious money on supplements for sure, but would it do anything? How can we know other than doing more studies, especially studies on humans?

 

 

I take very few supplements every day. As for human trials with C60, you probably won't live long enough to benefit much.

 

Are NR, Resveratrol, Pterostilbene and Honokiol considered antioxidants?

[Empiricus]

Yeah try just making it without the HT. Also how much sleep are you getting? You sure you don't have sleep apnea or something? That used to make me so lethargic all day before CPAP now I bounce off the walls. How often do you work out? I sometimes feel lethargic during workouts on some days without C60, slugging my way through, but it's random.  My 7th and last day/dose of my first 100ml was today and I felt fan-f'ing-tastic on the elliptical. It's good OO, peppery taste, De Carlo, SES 99.95%. I felt low energy yesterday and Tuesday but 5 of the 7 days have been super high energy.

 

I'll be breaking from almost everything for a week and then doing it again. Only thing I'm continuing to take till then is the L-theanine and Taurine/B6 at night with Collagen Peptides and possibly D3. You should try that for quality sleep.

 

Lately I think I have not been getting enough sleep (my fault though, not a sleeping issue). Others have reported needing more sleep on c60.  I wonder if that's because your body is working extra hard repairing stuff, and so you need the sleep to make the repairs...

 

I can try that. Collagen peptides also help with sleep?  

Edited by Empiricus, 28 May 2016 - 04:51 AM.

[Nate-2004]

I can try that. Collagen peptides also help with sleep? 

 

Yes that's rumored to be true but not sure there is anything backing that up. However, the best time to take it is right before bed because most new collagen is made during sleep as far as I've read.

 

 

A personal trainer once told me your body goes through a cycle where some workouts are more difficult and "lethargic" and sluggish to get through and that there's ways to time it right so you go on the days when you're not so sluggish. I don't remember what his theory was or if he had anything to back it up but I remember it sounded quite plausible at the time. I think he even said there was an app that can tell you when to go. I'll have to search for it. I see a bunch of articles explaining many reasons why you would feel lethargic during a workout, mostly dehydration, pre-workout food types and overtraining as primary reasons.

 

Usually when I eat an apple before a workout, those workouts are the best, I dip the pieces in natural peanut butter.

Edited by Nate-2004, 28 May 2016 - 05:04 AM.

[Empiricus]

That last dose hit me hard. The unpleasant effects continue. Mainly body aches, but also some interruption of sleep (associated with aches at night).  So what could be the cause?   

 

1. Toxins flooding the system theory: From googling, it's evident that the so-called Herxheimer reaction (die-off syndrome of bacteria and viruses etc) is extremely common with olive leaf extract. Reports of symptoms associated with Herxheimer describe what I'm experiencing. Some olive leaf brands even feel the need to warn customers about this reaction. The Olea25 capsules have the same smell as olive leaf extract --just not as strong.  Since my 400 ml batch of c60 was made with 30 of these capsules, I'm wondering if the famous "healing crisis" associated with olive leaf extracts might explain my own symptoms.

 

2. Contamination with spoiled olive oil theory: As this time I experienced a stronger negative reaction than before on the new batch, I'm asking myself what I did differently. One thing was that I drank from a bottle half filled with the c60 that I had topped off with an older olive oil.  As I didn't plan to freeze the small bottle (I would be consuming the remainder in 7 days), I thought adding some olive oil to the top would prevent any air spoilage during the week. It was this small bottle that I finished off the other day.  

 

3. Larger dose theory: Another thing I did differently was I took 6 mg-- a 15-20% increase in dose of c60 over the two previous occasions.  

 

Edited by Empiricus, 29 May 2016 - 03:54 AM.

[Nate-2004]

Interesting. Today I was incredibly sleepy, I even took a nap which literally never happens. I got a solid 7.5 hrs last night which is usually perfect. I'm normally an insomniac and have enough trouble sleeping at regular times as it is.  I am hesitant to attribute it to the OO because my seasonal allergies have come back with a vengeance, and I took Dymista last night (Astelin and Flonase nasal spray). Astelin (azelastine hydrochloride) affects sleep quality in some ways and causes somnolence so I can't discount that as a big factor, though it's never been like this and I took it the night before, not today.

 

My nails have grown considerably fast since I cut them a week and a half ago.  I had to cut them again today.

 

I finished off the first 100ml of my 200ml batch yesterday which was 20ml or 14mg. I plan on taking a short break for a week from literally everything except the L-theanine for sleep, vitamin D and Collagen.

 

What you said Empiricus about C60OO and requiring more sleep in an earlier post intrigues me and gets me to wondering if that's what's going on.

 

Note that I have nothing other than C60 in my olive oil.

 

Edited by Nate-2004, 29 May 2016 - 03:54 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

That last dose hit me hard. The unpleasant effects continue. Mainly body aches, but also some interruption of sleep (associated with aches at night).  So what could be the cause?   

...Since my 400 ml batch of c60 was made with 30 of these capsules, I'm wondering if the famous "healing crisis" associated with olive leaf extracts might explain my own symptoms.

 

 

 

 

Sounds like a toxic brew. I'd throw it out and not rationalize it as a healing crisis. 

[Turnbuckle]

I needed much more sleep, felt mild aches in the neck and back. Emotionally, I felt more easily agitated...I took my third dose -- about 6 mg of c60 in HT enriched c60. As with the previous 2 doses I felt lethargic exercising and thew in the towel early. Overcome by aches and fatigue prior to bedtime, I pretty much collapsed into bed, but didn't fall asleep very fast, then woke up in the middle of the night (don't usually do that).  Between the body aches and exhaustion, I'd say the after-effects of this last c60 dose ranks among my least pleasant.  

 

 

HT could be stimulating the adrenal glands--

 

Hydroxytyrosol pronouncedly increased norepinephrine transporter activity... in pheochromocytoma PC12 cells... [these cells are from the rat adrenal medulla]

 

 

And agitation could come from a disturbance of norepinephrine levels, as well as a number of other symptoms. So perhaps HT is not for you.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 29 May 2016 - 12:42 PM.

[Empiricus]

 

HT could be stimulating the adrenal glands--

 

Hydroxytyrosol pronouncedly increased norepinephrine transporter activity... in pheochromocytoma PC12 cells... [these cells are from the rat adrenal medulla]

 

 

And agitation could come from a disturbance of norepinephrine levels, as well as a number of other symptoms. So perhaps HT is not for you.

 

 

Thanks for digging that up. That certainly fits with what I have been feeling.  Fortunately, the agitation seems to go away the same day as I take it. The other symptoms linger.  

 

Today I took 3 mg of c60 in a mixture I just finished stirring that contains no added Olea25.  No agitation this time.  

Edited by Empiricus, 29 May 2016 - 06:26 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

 

 

Today I took 3 mg of c60 in a mixture I just finished stirring that contains no added Olea25.  No agitation this time.  

 

 

I had your agitation effect for the first time yesterday. After taking only 1/2 teaspoon of a .6 mg/ml C60 mix, I found that sounds were too loud--irritably loud--and I had trouble falling asleep. The stuff was excessively stimulating and not in a pleasant way, but oddly, there was no extra HT in it and the reported polyphenol level in the oil was only 450--high compared to store oil, but actually low compared to mixes I have reported here. I'd taken this before months ago (it's been in the freezer) and didn't experience anything like this. One possibility is I'd been experimenting with naringin capsules and eating a grapefruit every day (which also contains naringin). This phytochemical is known to potentiate other drugs, and has a long half-life. Some time ago I'd taken C60 with a large glass of grapefruit juice and found an odd effect that was vaguely similar to cannabis--a comparatively moderate sensory expansion but no drug feeling. I was not able to reproduce that effect until now, accidentally, and it was not something one would look to repeat.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 30 May 2016 - 11:19 AM.

[stephen_b]

However, it is possible that none of that is contributable to the C60OO. I also don't know how hold you are compared to me, I'm 42.

My stack is:

 

C60OO 

Nicotinamide Riboside 500mg to 1g+ per day.

Resveratrol / Pterostilbene 250/50 2x per day w/Niagen

Honokiol 200mg 1x per day w/Niagen

L-theanine 400mg 1hr before bed. (GABA)

Taurine + B6 1000/20mg 1hr before bed. (GABA)

Collagen Peptides 11g 1hr before bed

Melatonin 3mg 1hr before bed

 

It could be any one of these things or none of them. It could just be my diet or the excellent sleep I get. This is all one big expensive experiment but so far I feel fucking amazing. If that's a placebo effect, then it's one hell of a long lasting one.

 

52 here and an avid runner. I've felt nothing but bad effects from nicotinamide riboside. It made my muscles crampy and lethargic. YMMV.

[Nate-2004]

Don't take antioxidants till after the workout. I felt the same way until I began taking all antioxidants after the workout, not before. Antioxidants are really bad for workouts because your body needs the oxidation at that point. That's my hypothesis at least and so far it's proving true.  I save that whole stack I mentioned for 30 mins after I finish.

Edited by Nate-2004, 09 June 2016 - 10:15 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

Report on a mix of MCT oil (.6 mg/ml C60 + .833 mg/ml HT)

 

1 tsp. 3 days in a row +

600 mg NAC in fruit juice & 2 gm Alcar per day

 

On day 3, removal of broken wisdom tooth with three roots under local.

After 1 hr or so anesthetic wore off. 

After 4 hrs, gum had covered up area completely. 

No pain.

No swelling whatsoever.

Quite amazing, compared to internet reports of a week or two to achieve the same gum growth.

 

 

Edited by Turnbuckle, 11 June 2016 - 03:01 AM.

[Nate-2004]

After this post by F@H I was convinced that I should either stop C60OO till Ichor comes up with a guaranteed method of avoiding damage to it or I should be more careful.

 

I had a tough time finding containers that would both force the air out of the container, seal it and keep it out of the light, both while mixing and in storage. I found almost nothing that could do both of those things reliably.  I looked at the Vacu vin for wine but turns out that thing leaks all the air back in by 12 hrs.  Then there's other containers like this one which is too big, I once had one for coffee, and it's plastic inside which I'm worried about, plus I'm not sure if it'd even work on the mixer. Then I found this one which is great but the glass is clear and it's supposedly meant for dry goods. This came closest, it's ideal for a magnetic mixer at least, so I am going to try this but I'll have to find some cover for it so that light can't get in. They should really make some of those with a pour spout and dark amber glass.

Edited by Nate-2004, 11 June 2016 - 03:09 AM.