231 replies to this topic

[Turnbuckle]

I've been taking C60 with NR the whole time, 3 months now, I've not noticed any negative interaction thus far. Why would C60 and NR be a bad thing?

...I don't know that I'm even sold on C60 at all at this point.

 

Could it be you're not sold because you're taking it with NR?

[Nate-2004]

I don't know. If I were to choose one I'd take the NR. I still don't understand why they would interact or what one would have to do with the other.

Someone else suggested that Honokiol might have its effects cancelled by C60, but I don't understand the mechanism of action on either of these interaction hypothesis. I haven't seen it explained.

[Huckfinn]

Would it be equally feasible to dissolve caprylic acid ( http://www.swansonvi...00-mg-60-sgels)into C60 OO?

Keto8 is sold for a crazy price here in Europe....

[Turnbuckle]

Would it be equally feasible to dissolve caprylic acid ( http://www.swansonvi...00-mg-60-sgels)into C60 OO?

Keto8 is sold for a crazy price here in Europe....

 

You could, but to what purpose? Better yet to dispense with olive oil altogether as the potential for OO rancidity is a problem, along with the increasing numbers of random adducts that you can expect as an OO mix ages.

 

In the US Keto8 is about 4 times the price of MCT oil (roughly $2/ounce for Keto8 at Amazon vs $0.56/ounce for the Viva brand MCT).

 

[For those who didn't read the discussion further up in this thread, I've mixed C60 into both Keto8 and MCT oil (without any olive oil), and didn't see any difference in effectiveness, though I found both to be at least as effective as my best C60 mix in OO. My mix using Keto8 is shown here, and my mix with Viva MCT oil is here. My rationale for dispensing with OO and using MCT oil (with HT) is here.]

Edited by Turnbuckle, 26 August 2016 - 12:10 PM.

[Huckfinn]

Thanks for the link.

I didn't see it before.

Also: as per C60 + OO: shaking the bottle for a couple of weeks (no stirrer) would work?

+

.....what does it taste like?

[jeanlzt11]

Collagen helps give the facial skin it's elasticity but the supporting layers of the face are are important too.  The facial fat and volume loss that goes with aging can result in a sunken look around the eyes.  It's this layer of subcutaneous fat that gives the young face that plump, smooth look.

 

 

 

The skin quality is it continuously improving or just staying the same? Wrinkles fading at all?

 

 

I seems better than it did taking C60 in EVOO once a week. As for wrinkles, I really don't have any. Skin pinch test is less than one second in all areas except elbows and the skin between upper eyelid and brow.

 

 

The things the skin test doesn't account for though is the overall change in shape of the face, the more sunken look around the eyes and the deeper wrinkles that are there when we smile, mostly all due to the loss of collagen. While I have no resting wrinkles and the elasticity test you linked is still less than a second for me, I see a huge difference in the way my face appears, the shape of my eyes, the way my eyeballs sit in my eye compared to the youthful look I had even 12 years ago at the age of 30.

 

What I'm wanting is that collagen back and whatever causes the slowing of collagen production is what I'm hoping to reverse or improve.

 

 

[Nate-2004]

 

Collagen helps give the facial skin it's elasticity but the supporting layers of the face are are important too.  The facial fat and volume loss that goes with aging can result in a sunken look around the eyes.  It's this layer of subcutaneous fat that gives the young face that plump, smooth look. 

 

 

 

I really thought that was part of the collagen but this sounds right. I wonder what's necessary to get that back. I'm guessing all that fat just moved to my belly lol. Move it back!

Edited by Nate-2004, 09 September 2016 - 02:23 PM.

[jeanlzt11]

Collagen helps give the facial skin it's elasticity but the supporting layers of the face are are important too. The facial fat and volume loss that goes with aging can result in a sunken look around the eyes. It's this layer of subcutaneous fat that gives the young face that plump, smooth look.

I really thought that was part of the collagen but this sounds right. I wonder what's
I really thought that was part of the collagen but this sounds right. I wonder what's necessary to get that back. I'm guessing all that fat just moved to my belly lol. Move it back!

You can actually put it back. It's called facial fat grafting. You can google it

Edited by jeanlzt, 09 September 2016 - 11:06 PM.

[Nate-2004]

You can actually put it back. It's called facial fat grafting. You can google it

Yeah I may have to wait for something less surgical and more of a repair in whatever loss of function was putting it there naturally in the first place. Can't risk looking weird.

[Turnbuckle]

 

You can actually put it back. It's called facial fat grafting. You can google it

Yeah I may have to wait for something less surgical and more of a repair in whatever loss of function was putting it there naturally in the first place. Can't risk looking weird.

 

 

This collagen and fat business is getting off topic. There are other threads that might be more appropirate, such as--

How to stimulate deeper collagen and Volume loss. There are several other threads in the same vein.

[Nate-2004]

 

 

You can actually put it back. It's called facial fat grafting. You can google it

Yeah I may have to wait for something less surgical and more of a repair in whatever loss of function was putting it there naturally in the first place. Can't risk looking weird.

 

 

This collagen and fat business is getting off topic. There are other threads that might be more appropirate, such as--

How to stimulate deeper collagen and Volume loss. There are several other threads in the same vein.

 

 

Sorry Turnbuckle I didn't mean to go off topic, was just hoping that C60 would do more in this particular area that she's talking about.

 

Thanks for the links!

[stephen_b]

The MCT oil was the vehicle of mix #11 that I reported on back in post #44 and in subsequent posts.

 

The oil I used was from Viva Labs and is advertised as "100% capric and caprylic acid." Together these make up about 15% of coconut oil. Since they are saturated fats, they are more stable than fats like the monounsaturated oleic acid of olive oil, which itself is more stable than polyunsaturated fats such as linoleic acid, which is also in olive oil. I used MCT oil to demonstrate that the olive oil itself is not important, only its minor constituents such as polyphenols, of which HT is possibly the most important. Since HT can be bought in capsules and added to the mix, a C60 solution can potentially be made that is less sensitive to rancidity, more consistent, and more effective than one made with olive oil.

 

As for light, just minimize it. It won't instantly go bad if you look at it.

 

It might be nice to have threads for oils other than olive.

 

I have started a batch with SES 99.9% C60 and the Keto8 product (just hand shaken a few times a day). It might also be interesting to make a batch with coconut oil, though it would have to be mixed at a temperature high enough for it to be liquid.

[Turnbuckle]

 

The MCT oil was the vehicle of mix #11 that I reported on back in post #44 and in subsequent posts.

 

The oil I used was from Viva Labs and is advertised as "100% capric and caprylic acid." Together these make up about 15% of coconut oil. Since they are saturated fats, they are more stable than fats like the monounsaturated oleic acid of olive oil, which itself is more stable than polyunsaturated fats such as linoleic acid, which is also in olive oil. I used MCT oil to demonstrate that the olive oil itself is not important, only its minor constituents such as polyphenols, of which HT is possibly the most important. Since HT can be bought in capsules and added to the mix, a C60 solution can potentially be made that is less sensitive to rancidity, more consistent, and more effective than one made with olive oil.

 

As for light, just minimize it. It won't instantly go bad if you look at it.

 

It might be nice to have threads for oils other than olive.

 

I have started a batch with SES 99.9% C60 and the Keto8 product (just hand shaken a few times a day). It might also be interesting to make a batch with coconut oil, though it would have to be mixed at a temperature high enough for it to be liquid.

 

 

Since this thread is about the effect of the oil portion of a C60 mix, I think that is an appropriate subject here.

 

The reason I went to MCT oils to begin with was that there were saturated and wouldn't react with C60. So if C60 adducts were not important (not established) then this would produce a stable oil compared to one prepared with olive oil where the pharmacological properties can be expected to drift with time. So then the question is, does it make a difference which oil you use? Coconut oil I ruled out for several reasons. First is contains 6-7% oleic acid, which is unsaturated and so the mix can be expected to be unstable with time. Also, it becomes solid at room temp, and this is a practical disadvantage in both making a C60 solution and in taking it. According to Wikipedia, the constituents for coconut oil are--

 

Caprylic saturated C8 -- 7%

Decanoic saturated C10  -- 8%

Lauric saturated C12 -- 48%

Myristic saturated C14 -- 16%

Palmitic saturated C16 -- 9.5%

Oleic monounsaturated C18:1 -- 6.5%

Other -- 5%

 

The MCT oil I have been using is a combination of the two lightest oils above, deconoic (capric) and caprylic acids. These are present as triglycerides--an ester of glycerol and three fatty acids--so each molecule contains either all capric or all caprylic acid, or some combination with two of one and one of the other. The oil has a low viscosity and dissolves C60 much faster than olive oil, but since it doesn't react, the solubility is less. How much less I don't know, but it is probably between 1/4 and 1/2 less.

 

Advantages of MCT oil:

Almost no taste

Much less variability of the base oil

Low viscosity and thus fast processing of C60

Stability and thus won't go rancid like olive oil and won't continuously add adducts

Isn't stored as fat in the body

 

Disadvantages:

Attacks some plastics, such as those commonly used for filter materials

Can upset stomach in doses of one tablespoon or higher

Doesn't contain polyphenols (which is also an advantage as you can then add what you want in the amounts you want)

 

I like MCT oil and have taken to using it (without C60) in my coffee or cereal, sometimes several times a day. It gives me an energy boost like sugar, but no let-down as insulin is not involved. Hunger is reduced. With C60 I find I can take it frequently without the fading I see with olive oil, and thus I have been taking it six days a week*--one teaspoon which contains 3 mg nominally, but probably a bit less than that. (The mix I'm using contains HT derived from olive leaves, and is described several places in this thread.)

 

MCT oil can also be made with a single fatty acid, and that's what Keto8 is. It is a triglyceride with just caprylic acid. It is very similar to the oil above, but with even lower viscosity, and is more expensive. There are pharmacological differences between capric and caprylic acids, but I suspect with small doses they won't make much difference to a person using them as a vehicle for C60. (Though often when I make such an assumption, I am wrong.) A picture of C60 in Keto8 is in post #134, and a picture of C60 in Viva Labs MCT oil is in post #128. This latter one is the mix I am presently using. 

-------------

 

*On the seventh day I take niacin (or other supplements) to boost the [NAD+]/[NADH] ratio for mito quality control.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 10 September 2016 - 10:10 AM.

[Empiricus]

 

I like MCT oil and have taken to using it (without C60) in my coffee or cereal, sometimes several times a day. It gives me an energy boost like sugar, but no let-down as insulin is not involved. Hunger is reduced. With C60 I find I can take it frequently without the fading I see with olive oil, and thus I have been taking it six days a week*--one teaspoon which contains 3 mg nominally, but probably a bit less than that. (The mix I'm using contains HT derived from olive leaves, and is described several places in this thread.)

 

Thanks for another interesting report. Do you think it would be a useful experiment for someone to take c60 in MCT without the HT, or are you sufficiently convinced that the polyphenol hypothesis is valid that you wouldn't think it worthwhile?  Would you anticipate it might be of some benefit? 

Edited by Empiricus, 10 September 2016 - 11:51 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

 

 

I like MCT oil and have taken to using it (without C60) in my coffee or cereal, sometimes several times a day. It gives me an energy boost like sugar, but no let-down as insulin is not involved. Hunger is reduced. With C60 I find I can take it frequently without the fading I see with olive oil, and thus I have been taking it six days a week*--one teaspoon which contains 3 mg nominally, but probably a bit less than that. (The mix I'm using contains HT derived from olive leaves, and is described several places in this thread.)

 

Thanks for another interesting report. Do you think it would be a useful experiment for someone to take c60 in MCT without the HT, or are you sufficiently convinced that the polyphenol hypothesis is valid that you wouldn't think it worthwhile?  Would you anticipate it might be of some benefit? 

 

 

Experiments are always worthwhile if others are willing to do them. HappyPhysicist did this MCT experiment 4 years ago and his mix is shown here. He didn't like it because it didn't dissolve as much C60 as olive oil, and it made him sick when he took it. However he took a very large dose--100 ml--which would make anyone sick, and he had ALS on top of that.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 10 September 2016 - 12:33 PM.

[Graviton]

Turnbuckle, how many mg of hydroxytyrosol do you mix in oil per ml? And, how about the concentration of C60 in oil?

Do you use https://www.amazon.c...hydroxytyrosol?

It contains fillers such as rice flour and starch, but is it still OK?

[Turnbuckle]

Turnbuckle, how many mg of hydroxytyrosol do you mix in oil per ml? And, how about the concentration of C60 in oil?

Do you use https://www.amazon.c...hydroxytyrosol?

It contains fillers such as rice flour and starch, but is it still OK?

 

See my post #141 and the post it references. 

[stephen_b]

Since this thread is about the effect of the oil portion of a C60 mix, I think that is an appropriate subject here.

 

The reason I went to MCT oils to begin with was that there were saturated and wouldn't react with C60. So if C60 adducts were not important (not established) then this would produce a stable oil compared to one prepared with olive oil where the pharmacological properties can be expected to drift with time. So then the question is, does it make a difference which oil you use? Coconut oil I ruled out for several reasons. First is contains 6-7% oleic acid, which is unsaturated and so the mix can be expected to be unstable with time. Also, it becomes solid at room temp, and this is a practical disadvantage in both making a C60 solution and in taking it. According to Wikipedia, the constituents for coconut oil are--

 

Caprylic saturated C8 -- 7%

Decanoic saturated C10  -- 8%

Lauric saturated C12 -- 48%

Myristic saturated C14 -- 16%

Palmitic saturated C16 -- 9.5%

Oleic monounsaturated C18:1 -- 6.5%

Other -- 5%

 

The MCT oil I have been using is a combination of the two lightest oils above, deconoic (capric) and caprylic acids. These are present as triglycerides--an ester of glycerol and three fatty acids--so each molecule contains either all capric or all caprylic acid, or some combination with two of one and one of the other. The oil has a low viscosity and dissolves C60 much faster than olive oil, but since it doesn't react, the solubility is less. How much less I don't know, but it is probably between 1/4 and 1/2 less.

 

Advantages of MCT oil:

Almost no taste

Much less variability of the base oil

Low viscosity and thus fast processing of C60

Stability and thus won't go rancid like olive oil and won't continuously add adducts

Isn't stored as fat in the body

 

Disadvantages:

Attacks some plastics, such as those commonly used for filter materials

Can upset stomach in doses of one tablespoon or higher

Doesn't contain polyphenols (which is also an advantage as you can then add what you want in the amounts you want)

 

I like MCT oil and have taken to using it (without C60) in my coffee or cereal, sometimes several times a day. It gives me an energy boost like sugar, but no let-down as insulin is not involved. Hunger is reduced. With C60 I find I can take it frequently without the fading I see with olive oil, and thus I have been taking it six days a week*--one teaspoon which contains 3 mg nominally, but probably a bit less than that. (The mix I'm using contains HT derived from olive leaves, and is described several places in this thread.)

 

MCT oil can also be made with a single fatty acid, and that's what Keto8 is. It is a triglyceride with just caprylic acid. It is very similar to the oil above, but with even lower viscosity, and is more expensive. There are pharmacological differences between capric and caprylic acids, but I suspect with small doses they won't make much difference to a person using them as a vehicle for C60. (Though often when I make such an assumption, I am wrong.) A picture of C60 in Keto8 is in post #134, and a picture of C60 in Viva Labs MCT oil is in post #128. This latter one is the mix I am presently using. 

-------------

 

*On the seventh day I take niacin (or other supplements) to boost the [NAD+]/[NADH] ratio for mito quality control.

 

 

So MCT is a saturated fat, but it's a special one that gets metabolized via the portal vein and straight to the liver, a different metabolic pathway.

 

Any thoughts on what might be a good choice if you'd like your C60 to be distributed via the lymph system? For example, either a monounsaturated or a non-medium chain saturated fat that would be very stable and have a low polyphenol content. Perhaps something like high-oleic (sometimes sold as high heat) sunflower oil? Sunflower oil processed this way has less unsaturated fat than safflower or canola oil.

 

It would be interesting to see how the effects either MCT or high monounsaturated content oil with C60 would differ.

Edited by stephen_b, 11 September 2016 - 08:32 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

 

 

 

So MCT is a saturated fat, but it's a special one that gets metabolized via the portal vein and straight to the liver, a different metabolic pathway.

 

Any thoughts on what might be a good choice if you'd like your C60 to be distributed via the lymph system? For example, either a monounsaturated or a non-medium chain saturated fat that would be very stable and have a low polyphenol content. Perhaps something like high-oleic (sometimes sold as high heat) sunflower oil? Sunflower oil processed this way has less unsaturated fat than safflower or canola oil.

 

It would be interesting to see how the effects either MCT or high monounsaturated content oil with C60 would differ.

 

 

 

I don't think you can assume that C60-MCT will be treated by the body like MCT without C60. Nor is it true that MCTs are entirely metabolized by the liver. Liberated medium chain fatty acids are oxidized in many tissues--

 

MCFA-containing triglycerides are preferentially hydrolyzed compared with those containing LCFAs, and liberated MCFAs are also preferentially oxidized in organs, mostly heart, muscles, kidneys, and liver

 

https://www.research...lar_perspective

 

 

 

It's also possible that a MCT oil containing odd numbered fatty acids--if one could obtain such a thing--might be interesting as a carrier, or even by itself. From the same paper--

 

The fact that MCFAs with odd-chain and even-chain hydrocarbon skeletons exert different effects on cell energy metabolism is of particular interest and practical importance. In contrast to even-chain MCFAs, β-oxidation of odd-chain MCFAs generates acetyl-CoA and, in addition, propionyl-CoA, which is anaplerotic for the citric acid cycle. Propionyl-CoA can enter the citric acid cycle after its conversion into succinate. The anaplerotic function of odd-chain MCFAs seems to be crucial for maintenance of the level of citric acid cycle metabolites in various tissues. 

 

[Turnbuckle]

It would be interesting to see how the effects either MCT or high monounsaturated content oil with C60 would differ.

 

 

 

Another way of testing for a difference is to thoroughly mix MCT-C60 into a larger amount of EVOO before taking it. I thought I'd mentioned this previously, but apparently it was on another thread. 

-----------

 

Another thought on the value of C60 adducts (while ignoring polyphenols)--

 

The oleic acid in olive oil is in the form of relatively unreactive triglycerides, but there is always some free fatty acid (along with various other breakdown products such as diacylglycerol and monoacylglycerol). EVOO has less than 0.8% free acid if it meets the spec, which might not seem like much, but is sufficient to react to all the C60 present. Virgin oil can have nearly twice that much (1.5%), so if adducts are good, then virgin would be better than extra virgin. But if adducts are bad, then cheap refined oils would be better, as the free acidity is typically reduced to 0.3%.

 

See Designations and definitions of olive oils. 

 

Unfortunately, with so much adulteration in the olive oil market, along with the variability of a natural product, you will never be sure what's in it.

 

As for MCT oil, this is a refined oil so I assume it will have a low level of free acid. However, I've not been able to find a spec on it, so this is just an assumption.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 13 September 2016 - 11:48 AM.

[mikey]

 

Another in the series of experiments—

 

(12)

One teaspoon of—

 

MCT oil base (Viva Labs: “100% capric and caprylic acid.”)

 

.7 mg/ml — C60 (SES 99.95%)

.5 mg/ml — HT (from olive leaf extract, Olea25)

5  IU/ml — Vitamin E (the Baati oil had high E content)

 

C60 was dry ground into HT extract and all ingredients were magnetically stirred for 4 days then vacuum filtered at 0.22 microns.

 

I haven't tried this mix yet. Picture is attached. (This is the mix in the filter receptacle, after which it was transferred to several 8 oz amber bottles and frozen.)

 

 

 

 

Thanks again, Turnbuckle, for innovating the use of MCTs.

 

Do you prefer the Viva Labs or the Keto8?

[Turnbuckle]

 

 

Another in the series of experiments—

 

(12)

One teaspoon of—

 

MCT oil base (Viva Labs: “100% capric and caprylic acid.”)

 

.7 mg/ml — C60 (SES 99.95%)

.5 mg/ml — HT (from olive leaf extract, Olea25)

5  IU/ml — Vitamin E (the Baati oil had high E content)

 

C60 was dry ground into HT extract and all ingredients were magnetically stirred for 4 days then vacuum filtered at 0.22 microns.

 

I haven't tried this mix yet. Picture is attached. (This is the mix in the filter receptacle, after which it was transferred to several 8 oz amber bottles and frozen.)

 

 

 

 

Thanks again, Turnbuckle, for innovating the use of MCTs.

 

Do you prefer the Viva Labs or the Keto8?

 

 

This is not just a brand name difference as these are different oils. Keto8 is >99% C8 while Viva's MCT oil is 60% C8 and 40% C10. C8 is said to be better for ketosis, though both oils are used for that. I can't say I noticed any difference previously except Keto8 is even less viscous and 5 times more expensive. However, it might be worth revisiting this with the red light treatment, as I only tried it without that. Apart from using it as a vehicle for C60, I also use quite a bit of Viva for energy. It doesn't turn into fat, and it does provide both physical and mental energy. One study found slight differences between C8 and C10 in rats--

 

Cognition and Synaptic-Plasticity Related Changes in Aged Rats Supplemented with 8- and 10-Carbon Medium Chain Triglycerides

 

Recently, data on the neuroprotective capacity of MCT-derived medium chain fatty acids (MCFA) suggest 8-carbon and 10-carbon MCFA may have cognition-enhancing properties which are not related to ketone production. ...Treatment with MCT10, but not MCT8, significantly improved novel object recognition memory compared to control diet, while social recognition increased in both MCT groups. MCT8 and MCT10 diets decreased weight compared to control diet...These results demonstrate that treatment of 8- and 10-carbon length MCTs in aged rats have slight differential effects on synaptic stability, protein synthesis and behavior that may be independent of brain ketone levels.

 

 

An earlier paper was not quite as positive--

 

Effect of two medium chain triglycerides-supplemented diets on synaptic morphology in the cerebellar cortex of late-adult rats.

 

Ketogenic diets (KDs) have shown beneficial effects in experimental models of neurodegeneration, designating aged individuals as possible recipients. However, few studies have investigated their consequences on aging brain. Here, late-adult rats (19 months of age) were fed for 8 weeks with two medium chain triglycerides-supplemented diets (MCT-SDs) and the average area (S), numeric density (Nv(s)), and surface density (S(v)) of synapses, as well as the average volume (V), numeric density (Nv(m)), and volume density (V(v)) of synaptic mitochondria were evaluated in granule cell layer of the cerebellar cortex (GCL-CCx) by computer-assisted morphometric methods. MCT content was 10 or 20%. About 10%MCT-SD induced the early appearance of senescent patterns (decreased Nv(s) and Nv(m); increased V), whereas 20%MCT-SD caused no changes. Recently, we have shown that both MCT-SDs accelerate aging in the stratum moleculare of CA1 (SM CA1), but are "antiaging" in the outer molecular layer of dentate gyrus (OML DG). Since GCL-CCx is more vulnerable to age than OML DG but less than SM CA1, present and previous results suggest that the effects of MCT-SDs in the aging brain critically depend on neuronal vulnerability to age, besides MCT percentage.

 

[stephen_b]

So MCT is a saturated fat, but it's a special one that gets metabolized via the portal vein and straight to the liver, a different metabolic pathway.

 

Any thoughts on what might be a good choice if you'd like your C60 to be distributed via the lymph system? For example, either a monounsaturated or a non-medium chain saturated fat that would be very stable and have a low polyphenol content. Perhaps something like high-oleic (sometimes sold as high heat) sunflower oil? Sunflower oil processed this way has less unsaturated fat than safflower or canola oil.

 

It would be interesting to see how the effects either MCT or high monounsaturated content oil with C60 would differ.

 

My first batch of C60-refined sunflower oil. The refining process removes most of the polyunsaturated fat so that it is suitable for high heat cooking. The color changed relatively quickly.

 

The hypothesis here is that polyphenols are not responsible for the health effects of C60-OO and that a high monounsatured fat content facilitates distribution to the body via the lymph system. I also have a batch of C60-Keto8.

Attached Files

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[resveratrol_guy]

Hi Turnbuckle, are you still on C60 with C8 and/or C10 MCT? If so, are you still mixing in vitamin E (which tocopherol?) with it (which increased morbitity in the Nurse's Health Study of older individuals, maybe due to alpha-vs-gamma)? Most importantly, how's your inflammation level? And have you come to any new hypothesis of why NAD+ precursors should not be coadministered with C60 (which seems quite unintuitive).

 

I must say, it's remarkable how C8, C10, and sunflower oil all seem to render the same purple hue. If the C60 were bonding with something in the oil, then one would expect distinctly different colors, as there's no reason to assume that the resulting quantum system would have molecular orbitals of identical energy. It sounds much more like you're correct: the oil doesn't matter, so long as the C60 thoroughly dissolves. Perhaps all these color changes we see are actually due to the C60 particles transitioning to smaller and smaller clumps, until the "clumps" are just individual C60s. Somehow, these clumps have predictable optical properties which change in the observed manner as they get smaller, from black to cherry red to purple.

[Turnbuckle]

Hi Turnbuckle, are you still on C60 with C8 and/or C10 MCT? If so, are you still mixing in vitamin E (which tocopherol?) with it (which increased morbitity in the Nurse's Health Study of older individuals, maybe due to alpha-vs-gamma)? Most importantly, how's your inflammation level? And have you come to any new hypothesis of why NAD+ precursors should not be coadministered with C60 (which seems quite unintuitive).

 

I must say, it's remarkable how C8, C10, and sunflower oil all seem to render the same purple hue. If the C60 were bonding with something in the oil, then one would expect distinctly different colors, as there's no reason to assume that the resulting quantum system would have molecular orbitals of identical energy. It sounds much more like you're correct: the oil doesn't matter, so long as the C60 thoroughly dissolves. Perhaps all these color changes we see are actually due to the C60 particles transitioning to smaller and smaller clumps, until the "clumps" are just individual C60s. Somehow, these clumps have predictable optical properties which change in the observed manner as they get smaller, from black to cherry red to purple.

 

I couldn't tell if the E did anything, however, the amount of E in a single teaspoon was rather small--about 25 mg, only slightly more than the government RDA.

 

As for inflammation, I haven't had any tests specific for that, and as for the potential problem with NAD+ and C60, I've posted that on another thread--Nicotinamide Riboside and C60 Olive oil dosage help. See post No. 11 where I give evidence the two combined with light could produce ROS. I don't use NAD supplements while taking C60 for that reason, and recently I've been comparing nicotinamide with NR, so I haven't been taking C60. As for these two NAD+ enhancers, I've not been able to tell the difference, and suspect that people are taking it only because of the marketing, when they could be taking the much cheaper nicotinamide. (Of course I thought that to begin with, so I'm a bit biased.)

[resveratrol_guy]

 

I couldn't tell if the E did anything, however, the amount of E in a single teaspoon was rather small--about 25 mg, only slightly more than the government RDA.

 

As for inflammation, I haven't had any tests specific for that, and as for the potential problem with NAD+ and C60, I've posted that on another thread--Nicotinamide Riboside and C60 Olive oil dosage help. See post No. 11 where I give evidence the two combined with light could produce ROS. I don't use NAD supplements while taking C60 for that reason, and recently I've been comparing nicotinamide with NR, so I haven't been taking C60. As for these two NAD+ enhancers, I've not been able to tell the difference, and suspect that people are taking it only because of the marketing, when they could be taking the much cheaper nicotinamide. (Of course I thought that to begin with, so I'm a bit biased.)

 

 

Your C60 experiments here are very interesting. I wonder if you could create, say, 50 single-dose vials and write a number on the bottom of each one, then mix them all up so you don't know which is which. I worry that what you're attempting to measure (aerobic benefit etc.) is way too subjective.

I'm also bothered by the apparent fine sensitivity of red light exposure, such that it would be easy to overdo it or underdo it. You're getting markedly different results with a factor of two variance in exposure.

OTOH, I think your experiments with various vehicles is easily reproduced, even in the presence of reasonable amounts of process control noise. What's your current choice of vehicle: MCT, C8, C10, C8+C10, or what? (By the way, you mentioned that caprylic acid naturally smells rancid. I wonder whether perhaps this is wrong, and in fact you have rancid caprylic acid. I've noticed the same when using low quality coconut oil. Maybe a brand comparison is in order.) Do you still believe that HT is a necessary additive worth the price?

I'm unfazed by the theory that NAD+ precursors combine with C60 to produce free radicals. Perhaps it's true, but what we really need is a Baati style study showing overall impact on lifespan. A little ROS is good for us, after all. I guess we can hedge by flipping strategies week-to-week or so.

Anyway, nobody said this was easy to do, or that it was safe to conduct such experiments. So for my part, I appreciate your courage in monkeying around with all these parameters for the benefit of everybody who reads your updates.


 

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 16 November 2016 - 04:48 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

@resveratrol_guy

 

All of this is subjective, as the goal is longer life and there is no good test for that except actually measuring longer life in a population of animals. Unfortunately, even 5 years after the Baati experiment, we still don't have a second experiment showing longer life. What we do know is that olive oil makes for an unstable product, and if not prepared and stored properly, might produce the opposite of what we want. Thus my experiments with MCT oil, which I thought would be less variable and more stable as it is fully saturated. It is certainly less variable, though it has problems as well, as free acid is obviously released when the mix is exposed to light, due to the formation of ROS. This can be used to do some crude chemistry, such as when I added CoQ10 to the mix and then irradiated it. That experiment suggested a C60-CoQ10 product would be very interesting, though there are likely some not so good things being created at the same time, as it creates a jittery feeling even as it enhances exercise performance. Thus the most acceptable product I've tried appears to be C60 in MCT oil with added HT and no irradiation.

 

Which MCT oil to use? I can't tell you that. I've tried a mix of C8 & C10 and found no subjective difference from pure C8. Neither had an odor or taste, but with exposure of the C8/C10 to red light, I detected an odor of rancidity that increased with light exposure, indicating an increasing amount of free acid. Free caprylic acid has a naturally rancid smell and taste. As for the possibility of oxidized caprylic acid, I don't know what that smells like.

[resveratrol_guy]

If I recall, kmoody said in one of his posts that before his rats started dying prematurely due to bad c60oo, that he was actually getting dose-dependent life extension. The result may not have been peer-reviewed on account of the later problems, but at least, that's encouraging if true. Hopefully he will consider doing a trial with MCT or some other oil, as well.

On the one hand, I can see your case for MCT due to stability in the absence of C60. On the other, increasing rancidity merely due to red light exposure is kind of scary. It might be difficult to isolate the oil that rigorously; one would need to use a brown glass bottle wrapped in duct tape or something, pursuant to weeks of stirring in a dark environment.

Furthermore, if those observations are accurate, then I suppose I would have to rescind what I said above about C60 causing color changes simply due to gradual dissolution; they would imply that there is in fact a chemical change occurring, which may well be largely the same regardless of oil base. (Maybe c60oo is really just C60 plus a bunch of OH groups stolen from fat, as niner speculated long ago. Could some of those OH groups then be stolen back by the fat, but at sites different from their original source, resulting in rancidity? Hmm...)

Are you planning to go back to c60mct, maybe with CoQ10, or do you have some other idea at this point? I don't suppose there's some even-more-stable oil out there which is safe to consume?

For what it's worth, Now Sports MCT claims to be pharma grade, which sounds like it might be one of the safer options.

What about the dose of HT? I know you mentioned somewhere using a particular olive (leaf?) extract. What's your current sense of optimal dose, of which brand, per human kg?
 

[Turnbuckle]

Given the same amount of irradiation, I'd expect the same triglyceride breakdown in olive oil as MCT oil. Olive oil is unlikely to smell to the same degree, however, as the free acids in olive oil have a much lower vapor pressure and don't have the inherent rancid smell. Actual oxidation of the oil ought to be worse, and that is far more likely with the unsaturated fatty acids of olive oil. And the oil is only one aspect. Oxidation of the C60 is another, and I doubt it is possible to remove enough oxygen to prevent that. 

 

C60 in MCT produces a purple color that is stable for months at least, while C60 in clear oils like almond oil produces the same purple color, but turns whiskey brown over a period of weeks or months, suggesting that the unsaturated components of almond oil (and olive oil as well) are reacting, while the saturated MCT oil does not react.

 

There are some 30 polyphenols in olive oil, and I've only tried HT so far. I will try oleuropein next. Though it is readily available, I had not tried it as it doesn't have the same rep as HT as an antioxidant.

[resveratrol_guy]

Given the same amount of irradiation, I'd expect the same triglyceride breakdown in olive oil as MCT oil. Olive oil is unlikely to smell to the same degree, however, as the free acids in olive oil have a much lower vapor pressure and don't have the inherent rancid smell. Actual oxidation of the oil ought to be worse, and that is far more likely with the unsaturated fatty acids of olive oil. And the oil is only one aspect. Oxidation of the C60 is another, and I doubt it is possible to remove enough oxygen to prevent that. 

 

C60 in MCT produces a purple color that is stable for months at least, while C60 in clear oils like almond oil produces the same purple color, but turns whiskey brown over a period of weeks or months, suggesting that the unsaturated components of almond oil (and olive oil as well) are reacting, while the saturated MCT oil does not react.

 

There are some 30 polyphenols in olive oil, and I've only tried HT so far. I will try oleuropein next. Though it is readily available, I had not tried it as it doesn't have the same rep as HT as an antioxidant.

 

I was unaware of the browning that occurs in clear but less stable oils. I agree that's compelling evidence of a chemical change for the worse. All the more reason to get some rodents onto c60mct ASAP. I've invited kmoody here in case he has some thoughts on this.

For all the money behind c60oo at this point, it seems, at least, that we ought to put some effort into finally determining the structure of the "purple stuff". Ideally we could just forget this troublesome oil debate and manufacture the medicine itself.

Would you mind providing an update as to your source and dose of HT? And correct me if I'm wrong, but you just dump it in with the C60 powder prior to centrifuge, right? Good luck with oleuropein...