623 replies to this topic

[niner]

It is getting a bit off topic but hydrogen self ignition is not fully understood and under certain circumstances might happen with no flames or high temperatures, when it is sprayed for example, as it would likely happen in a leaky container under pressure.

 

It is just to point out that at homemade levels to tinker with hydrogen containers and self production might not be a smart choice, unless one really knows what is doing, of course.

 

Hydrogen self-ignition is pretty well understood.  Its Joule-Thompson coefficient is negative at significantly lower temperatures than most gases, so when it expands rapidly from a very high pressure (like hundreds of bar or more), it gets hotter, unlike most gases that get cooler.  If the pressure is high enough, and the decompression occurs in the right way, then it could get hot enough to reach the self-ignition temperature of H2 in air.  (something like 600 C, I think.)  This is not going to happen with hydrogen at atmospheric pressure, or even at a few hundred PSI.  The other way that hydrogen could ignite is via a spark.  Obviously you would want to use a regulator that was approved for flammable gases if you are using compressed H2.   Hydrogen, or any flammable gas becomes particularly dangerous when there's a large amount of it, it's mixed with air or oxygen in a concentration within the explosive limits of the gas, in an enclosed space, with an ignition source present.  A few hundred cc of H2 at atmospheric pressure really isn't very dangerous; you'd have to try pretty hard to hurt yourself with it.

[streamlover]

Ordered the test kit so I will follow through with that measurement but still am not completely happy with this sour stomach I seem to have all the time and found this paper on what looks like a better method for making H2 water: http://medicalgasres...3618-015-0034-2

 

They talk about encapsulating the H2-generating agent (in this case AL powder + calcium hydroxide (slaked lime) + H2O) in either a gas-permeable film or an acryl resin tube and then enclosing that in your drinking water container with your water to be infused filled to the top. They only use a PET bottle for a container, which doesn't seem it would be that resistant to losing H2 through the plastic or the cap but obtain amazing results of 7-8ppms H2 using the gas-permeable film method and 10ppms using the acryl resin tube method. This is 2-3 times what my Mg rods + acid gets and evidently doesn't impart any impurities into the H2 water. Also, they say this concentration is maintained for at least 7 days if the cap isn't removed. Wow, this is everything you want for H2 water generation: no impurities, no unwanted metals (Mg), can make in large quantities and store, cheap (maybe). The trick will be to iron out the details as to what gas-permeable film or acryl-resin tube (?) we might use, where to order in small quantities, hopefully inexpensively, what H2-generating agent we should use (I don't like the idea of using caustic lime for this!) and possibly a better container that would easily allow the H2-generating agent to be inserted. I know we could continue to use Mg (powder) plus malic acid and I think that would get close to the concentrations they're getting but then Al powder would also work and I think it's a little more reactive and probably cheaper. I would want to convince myself however that absolutely no dissolved Al ions can penetrate the membrane. Maybe another water test on the final product would be warranted

 

Let's put our heads and collective research skills together and come up with a setup that takes advantage of this method.

[aconita]

Very nice find!

 

Acryl resin can be PMMA which is extensively used in medicine because of its bio-compatibility, dental fillings and resins for example are PMMA (polimetilmetacrilate, of which plexiglas is one of the brand names).

 

I suppose it is safe to state that plexiglas would be relatively safe for what bio-compatibility is concerned, it is easy to find and cheap, easy to work with too and can be bought in pipes, blocks, sheets, etc...can be glued with superglue (cyanoacrylate).

 

I should have some laying around somewhere...

 

Teflon is gas permeable and comes in convenient tubes shapes.

 

http://www.biogenera...rmeable-tubing/

 

I'll research more to find a simple an cheap way to do that.

 

Caustic lime is fine, commonly used in the food industry and anyway it is not going to get into the drinking H2 water.

 

I would feel better providing the bottle with a security pressure valve, just in case, especially if an aluminum one is going to be used.

 

 

[streamlover]

Aconita, Thanks for getting us going. You seem to be pretty skilled at construction projects, materials, etc. and seem to be honing in on method 2 with the tubing and check valve. This does get the higher ppms in their experiments but won't this involve quite a bit of semi-skilled work to make the "H2-generating agent container"? Is there any chance someone is already selling something like this? What about the cap with check valve to release the H2...won't that be somewhat expensive? Being pretty much a klutz with tools and construction projects, (not to mention lazy) I gravitated right to method 1 where they said, "The agent was entirely wrapped with bags, namely, a gas-permeable film or non-woven fabric." Now that looks like something I might accomplish. I can't quite picture what they mean exactly but I could see playing around with it. They seem to be talking about using a water-tight bag made of a gas permeable material (does such a thing already exist?) and just throwing in the reactants and placing it in the container. I already tried a Hefty storage bag with the rods and pure vinegar inside and that combo didn't seem to allow any H2 to escape. Anyway...just saying...I would be VERY happy to get 7ppms H2 water with no Mg or contaminants.

[streamlover]

Would this combo work for H2-generating-agent container?

 

1.5ml test tube

plus

gas-permeable sealing film

 

Cut the film to size and place over cap opening that goes into tube, then drill holes in the top of the cap.

 

Need to find the gas-permeable film in smaller quantities or maybe order a sample...could do a group buy if it works. Or find some other gas-permeable membrane option.

 

Opinions?

[niner]

Here is some information about H2 permeability in various plastics.  Looks like polypropylene is pretty good.  LDPE isn't real high, but it's very easy to get hold of (Glad Cling-Wrap is PE, I think LD) 

[streamlover]

So it looks like those polypropylene tubes could let some H2 through without needing the membrane? Just can't imagine it flowing freely. Also seems like the seal wouldn't be completely water-tight from the picture...even with the membrane. Also, 1.5ml just seems too small to me. I know they used only .65g of the Al+lime mix in the article but if we wanted to use a different mix, might need a little more room.

 

Aconita, have you done anything with the caustic lime before? Do you need to wear gloves to handle it? I've made soap before and I know the hydroxides of sodium and potassium are pretty nasty.

[platypus]

Don't you think this kind of experimentation in order to save a few tens of bucks is too dangerous? I mean, MK-677 at least has some amount of testing in humans so it is better understood how it is affecting humans. You would be still taking the risk involved in ingesting a research chemical of unknown purity...

[streamlover]

Platypus, You are right...this is a lot of trouble just to get the ghrelin boost if you can get the same effect from MK-667. You made me check out what the thread was originally about and I realized I crashed a body-builder thread. As you can see from my video, I could certainly use some building but that wasn't even a consideration for me in getting into H2 water. I will say drinking the H2 water DOES make me hungry and I've put on 15+ lbs since starting it but I should definitely get to the gym if I want it to start going in the right places. Maybe the thread should be restarted somewhere else or re-titled or ?...don't know the Longecity procedures. Whatever you think Aconita is fine with me.

[niner]

Don't you think this kind of experimentation in order to save a few tens of bucks is too dangerous? I mean, MK-677 at least has some amount of testing in humans so it is better understood how it is affecting humans. You would be still taking the risk involved in ingesting a research chemical of unknown purity...

 

I don't know how much work has been done in humans with MK-677, but there have been multiple clinical trials with H2.  If you are using it as a gas, it's hard for it to be contaminated with the usual bad actors, since any contaminants would also have to be a gas.  If you generate it in situ using magnesium and drink the products, then you have to rely on the purity of the magnesium, which could contain lead.  I think it would be hard to go too far wrong with H2 gas, which could be dissolved in water before use.

[aconita]

Hydrogen water does much more that just boosting gherlin and boosting gherlin in this way is unlikely to be the most effective way to achieve a degree of hypertrophy not already achievable with just smart training.

 

Boosting gherlin in a soft and "natural" way like this is a way to restore younger HGH/IGF-1 levels in the "not anymore so young", it is not for the bodybuilder looking for juice.

 

MK677 is the same in this regard, that's why of the tread's title.

 

Actually hydrogen water is much safer than MK677, backed by solid research on humans and already used as therapy in some hospitals unlike MK677 which STILL is a research compound, probably quite safe but not a drug yet.

 

Hydrogen water works as a selective powerful antioxidant which because is lipophilic nature and extraordinary diffusion proprieties targets mitochondrial membranes, much like C60oo in a way but in a much safer context.

 

Its capability to reverse neuro degenerative pathologies like Parkinson places it in a different category than just a gherlin booster, its sport endurance boosting as well as the capability of reversing psoriasis and other dermatological issue places it close to C60oo in at least some of its action mechanisms.

 

In my opinion this tread is fine as it is, no need to start a new one just for the sake of a different title leading to spreading information better kept in one place.

 

1,5 ml test tubes are too small but bigger ones are surely available, I am always a bit concerned with most plastics for endocrine disruptors compounds that might leach, in that regard maybe plexiglas is safer..

 

Caustic lime is actually very safe to handle, it is extensively used in masonry since the Romans and doesn't represent an hazard at all, it is the calcium OXIDE that is nasty because very caustic (a drop in the eye and you might go blind), in despite of one of its English names "caustic" lime is not very caustic at all, besides the food and beverage industries it is used in dentistry for root channel treatments.

 

Don't worry, it is as safe as it gets, the only concern would be an high amount ingested since its strong base nature would alter the blood PH.

 

Used as in this method there is no way it would get ingested, given that the permeable membrane doesn't leak (method 1).

 

You don't need gloves to handle it, hydroxides of sodium and potassium are very nasty indeed, nothing to do with calcium hydroxide.

 

The only downside would be it is usually sold in 25kg bags for masonry purposes which will last...well...very long, I suppose.

 

The permeable non woven fabric is a bit puzzling since gorotex for example is certainly very gas permeable but is woven, I can't see why it has to be non woven...sealing it properly is another thing to look into.

 

Mylar, as the patches you linked is gas permeable but I am not sure to which degree (for the sake of time efficiency), mylar bags with pressure seals are available for next to nothing from China, (search "Mylar" in eBay), again I am not sure how efficient it would be (some of those membranes have laser made micro holes, which the bags or "regular" Mylar would not have).

 

If you like to have some fun check "Pacheco Hydrogen" in a research engine, this one for example gives you a brief history:

 

http://fuel-efficien...ws/?page_id=926

 

A very interesting read indeed, I know the story since the early '90s when I read about him in the book "Suppressed Energy Inventions" which I had (I was living in New Zealand at the time).

 

It did come to my mind when talking about hydrogen home production safety since I remember Pacheco blowing his home roof off while tinkering with his super battery project...

 

Anyway his hydrogen generator may be interesting for our application too, if you don't mind too much about your home roof, of course!

 

I will do some more research, don't worry, and of course everybody interested and with some knowledge is welcome to give any input, the aim is to come up with a simple, cheap and safe way for hydrogen water production, again: SIMPLE, CHEAP AND SAFE.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[streamlover]

I've been looking for something that might do for our "H2-reacting container". Nothing so far but have a few inquiries out to companies for info on possible products and also a few requests for info from various academic types who might have some ideas. This "vented screw cap" looks like what we need functionally but is for a larger container, it seems and also costs $5 or so. Anyway, tired of googling for now and just decided to start experimenting a little. Took a 5ml essential oil bottle and drilled a hole in the cap. The I took one of my Mg rods and started sanding it with a little hand sander. Wouldn't want to have to do this a lot but did manage to collect about 200mg in dust. Threw this in the bottle with about 400mg of malic acid, filled with water and then took a piece of Glad Cling Wrap and put over the top of the bottle and screwed the cap on. Dropped this in a jar filled with water hoping to see some vigorous bubbles coming from the bottle. Instead got about 1 bubble every several seconds or so. This Cling wrap is supposed to be "low density polyethylene (LDPE)" which sounds like it should allow H2 to flow pretty well. Not sure what the problem is but if anyone has another material that's easy to acquire they want me to try, let me know. Or if anyone finds a gas-permeable, hydrophobic membrane one can order for not too much, let me know.

 

Since I don't want to keep mining the Mg powder from the rods, I asked an online buddy to send me some Mg powder he had bought in the early days of our experimenting. I'm thinking one of the critical elements to this process described in the article getting the higher concentrations is the fact that the metal used is in powdered form rather than the solid rods. The guru I mentioned earlier was always telling us we should use the fireworks powder for higher concentrations but I didn't understand the principle of separating the H2 reactants from the drinking water at the time, and he neglected to spell this out, possibly because it was getting too close to his product specs. If anyone decides to order this powder, he said to get at least the "325 mesh" Mg, like this: Mg powder

 

I may try a few more food wraps but will probably wait for the Mg powder to come in next week...or else order the smallest quantity I can from Ebay.

 

 

Btw, I mailed the water kit back today so should have the results early next week. I used 6 rods, 3 each of the 4" and 5" versions in case there's any difference in the way they cast these, 2g of malic acid and let it brew for 8 hours.

 

 

[niner]

 I took one of my Mg rods and started sanding it with a little hand sander. Wouldn't want to have to do this a lot but did manage to collect about 200mg in dust. Threw this in the bottle with about 400mg of malic acid, filled with water and then took a piece of Glad Cling Wrap and put over the top of the bottle and screwed the cap on. Dropped this in a jar filled with water hoping to see some vigorous bubbles coming from the bottle. Instead got about 1 bubble every several seconds or so. This Cling wrap is supposed to be "low density polyethylene (LDPE)" which sounds like it should allow H2 to flow pretty well. Not sure what the problem is but if anyone has another material that's easy to acquire they want me to try, let me know. Or if anyone finds a gas-permeable, hydrophobic membrane one can order for not too much, let me know.

 

LDPE is only ok in terms of hydrogen permeability.  It's better than a lot of plastics, but not as good as some.  If the LDPE membrane is under water, it might be the case that hydrogen diffuses directly from the plastic into the water without ever forming gas bubbles.  After all, that's ultimately what we want.  The best way to test this would be to use the H2 concentration test kit to determine the amount of H2 in the water after running the reaction for a given amount of time.

[adamh]

I finally found the time and motivation and set up my electrolysis still making that h2 hooch. I used 12 gauge copper wire in a plastic container about 8" tall and 6" wide. I put a bit of baking soda in the water to act as an electrolyte. I have already seen a noticeable amount of gas collect off the negative electrode. The positive electrode is not putting out gas, it looks more like a milky liquid forming. Might be the o2 is oxidizing something. Later today I should have enough to test. I am using a plastic bag to collect the hydrogen. I taped a ring made of copper wire to the opening of the bag and put it over the neg electrode. The bag opens up as the gas enters. I realize it will not hold h2 for very long but I intend to consume it by inhaling shortly after it is collected.

 

The water itself will have h2 dissolved in it but I don't plan to drink it. I used plain tap water which is not too healthy, they put chloramide in it. Come to think of it, that may explain the reaction at the positive electrode if a little bit of chlorine is being formed. Do not use table salt as your electrolyte, it will for sure form chlorine. With this setup I can huff hydrogen any time of day. I plan to take a small toke along with air and just hold it long as I can then repeat. 

 

I already had the DC source, an old car battery charger I've had for at least 40 years. It offers 6 or 12 volt since back then there were still cars with 6 volt batteries on the road. I set it for 12v.

 

I could just as easily create h2 water at the exact same time since the h2 bubbles through it. If I did that I would use purified water, not sure how the baking soda would taste. The cost to me is approximately $0.00 since I had everything sitting around already. You could create your own for under $50 even if you bought everything brand new. It gives you an unlimited supply of both hydrogen water and h2 gas. If the h2 doesn't work, doesn't do anything for me, I can just take it apart no harm done. Thats a lot better than the other supplements and treatments I've tried.

 

No mg to deal with, no impurities in the mg to deal with, no acid in the water to consume. Gas should be pure, can anyone think of a reaction that would produce a nasty gas at the neg electrode under these circumstances?

[streamlover]

Hey Adamh, nice going. You've most likely just accomplished what these machines costing megabucks do in this "Hydrogen breathing center" in Korea. I'll be very curious to hear the effects you notice from breathing the H2.

 

AdamH, I having a hard time understanding those charts on H2 permeability of various materials. I think they indicate that the polypropylene would have the best permeability for H2...is that what you see? I believe that's the material of the industrial food wraps like this and the gift wrap stuff like this. Maybe I'll just ask for a piece from the butcher next time I'm shopping. This stuff seems to be BPA and phthalate free, unlike some other materials...does anyone see any other problems contaminant wise with this material?

 

niner, your last post got me thinking about a thread I saw recently on the FB hydrogen water group. The question was, "Do more bubbles in the water indicate higher concentrations of H2, as measured by the H2 test kit?" and the consensus from the experts seemed to be, "not necessarily." The bubbles are H2 but they aren't dissolved H2 if you can see the bubbles, so they indicate H2 is being generated but not necessarily getting dissolved in the water. This fits with my experience brewing the H2 water where some batches would have loud pop-fizzes when opening but measured surprisingly low ppms while other batches wouldn't fizz so much but would measure pretty high. I guess the factor that most affected how much would go into solution was how good the specific bottle sealed for that batch and therefore how much pressure was generated and maintained. But it does make me wonder also, if the H2 goes into solution immediately within the "H2-generating container", wouldn't that dissolved H2 be blocked from getting to the drinking water by the membrane along with the water? Silly to ponder this though because, as you said, the test kit is the ultimate test for a good brew and the article was pretty convincing that high ppms can be generated with this method.

 

I ordered some Al powder and Ca(OH)2 in case that's a lot better H2-generating combo than my current Mg + acid. My H2 Blue test kit also came yesterday so I should get some testing in next week.

[adamh]

They say you learn from failure as well as from success. I learned something today. The electrolysis did not go as planned. The copper corroded and by morning there was lots of blue-aqua color in the water and some residue of the same color on the bottom. The positive electrode was significantly corroded and had bits of blue-green material attached. It never put out a lot of bubbles and the plastic bag did not inflate much. It seems the h2 passed through it as fast as it was formed. Back to the drawing board.

 

I still think I have a good plan it just needs better execution. No way would I drink that blue water. Even the negative electrode had some corrosion. I will look for gold or gold plated electrodes and try again. A higher voltage would definitely create more h2. 12v is safe but slow. I do not recommend anyone using high voltage, above lets say 50v, unless you feel supremely confident in your precautions. The unit drew only a tiny bit of current, I could not see the needle move, it goes from 0 to 6 amps so it had to be around 100ma or less. 

 

Stainless steel should work as well as gold and they don't overprice it as much. If something has $5 worth of gold in it they ask $50. If a tiny bit of nickle or chromium leaches out of the stainless it should not hurt and it should not corrode anyway. I will put together a higher voltage dc supply linking several 6v battery replacement/ chargers that I have sitting around. Be careful of polarity when you do that. I should have my stuff in and setup in a week, will report back later. Hopefully I saved someone from going down the same wrong path using copper electrodes. The blue may be safe but I will pass and not enough h2. I will use glass collecting jars next time.

 

Streamlover, it seems to be highly permeable.

[streamlover]

Adamh, they use platinum coated titanium electrodes in most of the water machines now or the cheaper palladium coated sometimes for replacements. This would make your water drinkable also and if you wanted to separate the + and - sides with a membrane or use separate containers like any of the DIY ionizer or alkaline water machines described on youtube, I would think you could collect the H2 gas above the "alkaline" side. Tyler LeBaron says that all the machines, whatever they happen to call their water (alkaline, ionized, ERW, etc.) or tout for their benefits are probably only therapeutic to the degree they impart dissolved H2 in their water. I think the best ones get maybe 1.0ppms H2. I would think the machine makers could attach something to collect free H2 on their machines for breathing but none have done that yet to my knowledge. If you could not only collect the H2 with your electrolysis but somehow build some pressure in the H2 collecting side, I would think you could start getting higher ppms of dissolved H2 in the water.

 

Those electrodes linked above are more expensive than what's needed to just generate the free H2 but you might want to consider them in case you ever want to pursue making higher ppm water with this device.

[adamh]

Streamlover, those look like good electrodes but might be overkill. Plus the fact you have to have a conductor reaching the electrode and if that conductor is corrosive, you are still in the same spot. I already ordered some stainless wire which I will use. They will not be as good as platinum or titanium-palladium alloy but should do the job without corroding which is all I care about. I did not want to invest a lot of money in this, certainly not before becoming convinced of the benefits.

 

I bought 4' of 24 gauge stainless wire for $4 including shipping. Should be more than enough. One slight problem I noticed is that the electricity goes from or to, the part that first touches the water more so than the entire length. So your wire going down will put out a lot of gas while the part going up that you have a glass over to collect, does not get as much. I'm thinking to put a little insulation over part of the wire to stop that. 

 

I bought a lot of used battery replacements a while back. The kind you plug in and it has a connector to go to your phone or whatever. Here is a unit on ebay for $6.59 and free shipping that looks like it would do the job. I may get it to avoid the clutter of having a bunch of things wired together. It puts out up to 36v and 20w which should be plenty. But its from hong kong. USA sourced will cost a bit more

 

http://www.ebay.com/...pYAAOSwr41XIauS

[streamlover]

That's pretty reasonable for that power supply but it's only rated at 600mA...is that going to be enough current? Even with the electrodes real close together, I think you'll need more current than this to generate H2 very fast. Most of the machines are 1-2 amps, I think and their plates are probably larger than your electrodes.

[adamh]

600 mills is a good bit of current. Times 30 volts gives you 18 watts. When I had 12v hooked up it produced some gas but the meter did not move noticeably, I would estimate it drew less than 50 mills. 30v is 2.5 times as much as 12v and 600ma is12 times as much as 50ma so it should produce a decent amount of gas.

 

The size of electrodes is not that important, its more of a limiting factor. As gas collects on an electrode it insulates it from the water until it moves away. Therefore you need a decent amount of surface area but not huge. For industrial production you need a lot of area and higher voltages which is dangerous. Let me remind everyone that water is conductive and even more so with an electrolyte in it. Use high voltage and you could get a nasty shock or killed. I recommend no more than 50v tops and even that can be dangerous to someone with a heart condition.

 

I remembered that I have a variable transformer which will put out 0 to about 140v AC. I have some power diodes good for up to 500ma. It will be simple as can be, just connect one end of the diode to the output and from there to the electrode and the other end of the output directly to the other electrode. I will be able to adjust it and find what voltage produces an acceptable amount of gas without going overboard. I will use bent stainless wire for both electrodes, I will bend it in a zigzag shape. At 12v a straight length of 4" was plenty, at higher voltages the zigzag of perhaps 12" should be plenty. We are not trying to fill the hindenburg, just enough to breath. If 3 ppm in water is enough for an effect, a few cubic inches of pure h2 should be equal to that and more.

 

Speaking of water, I will be producing hydrogen water at the same time. I will probably just toss it out but maybe there is a better use for it? Watering plants? Give to pets? 

[niner]

adamh, you're smart not to drink the blue water.  The blue color comes from oxidized copper, in the form of Cu2+ ions.   That stuff is toxic as hell, in ways that can create permanent harm.  Don't drink the water unless you have noble metal electrodes and an appropriate electrolyte.

[adamh]

Niner, that is very interesting about the copper being toxic. I know copper itself is harmless in small amounts, what is it about the oxidized copper that makes it dangerous? 

 

>an appropriate electrolyte

 

What would be appropriate? I was using baking soda, seems like only co2 and perhaps sodium compounds would be formed. But chemistry is not my strong suit. I could use potassium hydroxide, would that be better? It would make it possibly undrinkable but I doubt I will be drinking it anyway. Especially after your warning.

 

I don't see how the h2 gas could be harmful.

[Junk Master]

Following this thread has certainly piqued my interest in H2 water.  Especially with Streamlover putting on 15 pounds since he started H2 water.  I'd be fascinated to see what percentage of the weight he put on was muscle, even without training.

 

Interestingly, MK677 did not make me appreciably more hungry.  Nor did I put on any weight during two "cycles" of 6 weeks use.  What I did experience was vastly improved sleep quality.  Now, I was not training at appreciably higher volumes like I had hoped to be, but I will be using it again as I ramp up my training again.  

 

Meanwhile C60OO made a HUGE immediate impact on the number of reps I could do, as well as on my endurance.  However, the initial improvement as about all I got from it besides a continuing feeling of "well being," for lack of a more descriptive term, and a huge improvement in my skin quality/wrinkles.  For that alone, I will continue to take C60OO intermittently.  As for any worries about safety, at my age (closing in on 50, I have none).

 

 

 

 

[hotbit]

@adamh
 

With an LD₅₀ of 30 mg/kg in rats, "gram quantities" of copper sulfate are potentially lethal in humans.^[28] The suggested safe level of copper in drinking water for humans varies depending on the source, but tends to be pegged at 2.0 mg/l.

 

https://en.wikipedia...Copper_toxicity

 

BTW - green colour of treated wood comes from copper.

Saying that some substances are toxic and others not is oversimplification. You need to add concentration to the equation. At high concentration water is toxic, too.

You have Cu(II) ions in the solution. They are highly reactive and will likely cause production of free radicals in the body.

[adamh]

@hotbit

 

Yes, I am aware of the toxic properties of copper sulfate. However copper itself is essential in the diet at around 2mg per day. There is no sulfur in the water or baking soda.

 

>You have Cu(II) ions in the solution. They are highly reactive and will likely cause production of free radicals in the body.

 

Possibly, but copper ions if present are going to combine with something. I have not heard of copper poisoning but its certainly possible with large overdoses. I also see no reason why free copper ions would form though its possible. I was concerned about the green junk which had to be copper combining with something, probably the baking soda and perhaps whatever impurities are present in the water. I'm more concerned about niner's warning and what he meant.

 

I am going to use stainless steel electrodes mostly for cosmetic reasons and to preserve the electrodes. H2 gas will rise and not contain any copper or other chemicals. I could then mix it with pure water to make h2 water but most likely will try breathing it first.

[niner]

 

Nutritionally, there is a distinct difference between organic and inorganic copper, according to whether the copper ion is bound to an organic ligand.^[2][3] Organic copper, like that found in food, is a beneficial micronutrient needed for good health.^[4] Inorganic metallic copper, like that found in electrical wire, plumbing pipes, brass fittings, redox water filters, sheet metal, cooking utensils, jewelry and pennies, is a neurotoxic heavy metal linked to physical and psychiatric symptoms on par with mercury and lead.^[5][6][7][8]

 

The above is a further quote from the wikipedia article on copper toxicity.

 

Copper II ions in water will not be neutralized by combining with a counterion.  The only way to make them safe is to bind them to a strong chelator, like the protein ceruloplasmin, the storage form of most copper in the body.   

 

The problem with copper isn't the acute poisoning that a few grams of the sulfate might cause, it's the long term harm.  Copper exposure has been linked to Alzheimer's Disease, among other problems.  In long term studies of very large populations using supplemental vitamins, one of the few strong negative associations was bad health outcomes linked with use of copper supplements.   We've had several threads here over the years on the danger of non-food source copper.

[niner]

>an appropriate electrolyte

 

What would be appropriate? I was using baking soda, seems like only co2 and perhaps sodium compounds would be formed. But chemistry is not my strong suit. I could use potassium hydroxide, would that be better? It would make it possibly undrinkable but I doubt I will be drinking it anyway. Especially after your warning.

 

I don't see how the h2 gas could be harmful.

 

Sodium Sulfate is pretty good.  Bicarbonates form other products, possibly including carbon monoxide. 

[hotbit]

 

...

I also see no reason why free copper ions would form though its possible. I was concerned about the green junk which had to be copper combining with something, probably the baking soda and perhaps whatever impurities are present in the water. I'm more concerned about niner's warning and what he meant.

 

I am going to use stainless steel electrodes mostly for cosmetic reasons and to preserve the electrodes. H2 gas will rise and not contain any copper or other chemicals. I could then mix it with pure water to make h2 water but most likely will try breathing it first.

 

As your water has become blue, it is a proof of Cu(2+) formation. Blue stuff is most likely Cu(OH)2

 

Using stainless steel might be even worse. It contains chromium. Those electrodes will also corrode and iron and chromium will dissolve in the water (as ions). I would recommend using gloves while handling electrodes.

 

While breathing gas would be safe in both (copper and stainless steel) cases, water becomes quite a nasty stuff, especially in the second case (chromium).

Edited by hotbit, 11 May 2016 - 09:57 PM.

[aconita]

I agree. the only advantage is that stainless steel 316 would last quite longer than copper, drinking the water is out of question.

 

I don't think that electrolysis hydrogen water is a smart way to go for a number of reasons, a very efficient electrolysis unit might be useful in order to obtain hydrogen gas to dissolve in clean water but I suspect it wouldn't be as simple as we hope for.

[adamh]

Niner, I have read about inorganic copper being a bad thing. I quit using my copper supplement since it did not say the source of the copper. The connection with alzheimers is a bit controversial as is the aluminum connection. But better safe than sorry. You made it sound like it would kill you dead right away, lol. But it being inorganic copper is enough reason to leave it alone.

 

>Sodium Sulfate is pretty good (electrolyte)

 

How about magnesium sulfate? I have some on hand. Seems like that would work. It sounds unlikely that baking soda will form CO since oxygen is being created at the same time. I'm no chemist but it seems logical the co would get oxidized pronto. It usually forms with a lack of oxygen I've heard.

 

(hotbit)

>Using stainless steel might be even worse. It contains chromium. Those electrodes will also corrode and iron and chromium will dissolve in the water (as ions). I would recommend using gloves while handling electrodes.

 

The makeup of stainless can vary, it may also contain nickle, iron and whatever. Why do you say chromium is so bad? It too is an essential mineral in the diet. Have you ever used stainless to do electrolysis? I'm not arguing with anyone that gold or platinum, paladium, etc wouldn't be better, sure it would. But why spend perhaps $100 or more just on electrodes unless you plan to drink the water? I dont really care if the electrodes gradually get used up. I think the stainless will corrode less or possibly not at all compared to copper. I could keep using copper but it makes such a mess. Why do you think it formed Cu(OH)2? Many copper compounds are blue or aqua, it may have reacted with the baking soda or impurities in the tap water. Not that it matters that much.

 

I got my stainless wire today, but now I'm having trouble finding my diodes. I have a card of them, probably 20 or so but can't lay my hands on them. I could try again with the 12v. I have a glass beaker looks like it could hold a liter or so. It will fit fine in my container. I just have to bend up the wire and insulate part of the negative electrode so I get all the hydrogen. The only area of loss would be dissolving in solution but it seems not highly soluble in water. I may start another attempt today.

 

Looking around I see that metal hydride is considered excellent for storing h2, it even stores more than a tank of liquid h2 of the same volume. Its a little expensive but a small one should not be too bad. I dont see them for sale but I'm sure they can be found. I see them as small as weighing a few oz but no prices. If we ever get hydrogen cars that will probably be the storage method.

 

Thanks everyone for the input. I shall keep on and get some h2 hopefully soon. I really think gas is the way to go rather than counting on some vendor's claim that there is no heavy metal in the magnesium or other chemicals used.