623 replies to this topic

[adamh]

Those charts seem a bit deceptive. Not only the change in scaling but as well, the h2 water used was 5ppm, about 2 1/2 times the normal concentration we get which is usually 2 ppm or less. That alone skews the results a great deal.

 

Another point to consider is the fact we already get some h via bacteria action in the colon. Why then should we take more via the same route? It would seem intuitively better to get supplemental h2 via another route in a different part of the body. When taken in the lungs you not only get a high concentration in the lungs but the next step when it enters the blood is to go to the brain where we need it. Hydrogen has already been shown effective for lung problems, if that is one of your concerns then drinking the water will not get it where you want it most. For cognitive effects too, breathing is the more direct route to the brain. If you need it in the spleen, then perhaps water is best.

 

To me, the purity of h2 gas is a major factor, people say someone tested some mg sticks and they weren't too bad. Maybe the next batch is very bad? As we know, quality control is very hit and miss in china, mostly missing. Chinese cities are so smog ridden they routinely issue alerts to stay inside and not breath the outside air. Dust too is a problem and is everywhere. The streams and water sources are used to dump toxic chemicals against even chinese standards which are very lax and seldom enforced. I prefer not to trust them nor any industrial source of mg if I'm going to be consuming it. If you take iron supplements do you want it in a safe form or ground up nails? I'll take my mg from a usda approved supplement, not industrial source mg.

 

If I want h2 water, I will take a jar or glass of h, put pure water in it and cap it up shaking every so often. Whatever the water is capable of absorbing it will absorb up to perhaps 2 ppm. When I drink that along with inhaling the gas, I get pure water with hydrogen, no mg, no acid, no trace contaminants and very little cost.

 

 

[hotbit]

Those charts seem a bit deceptive. Not only the change in scaling but as well, the h2 water used was 5ppm, about 2 1/2 times the normal concentration we get which is usually 2 ppm or less. That alone skews the results a great deal.

If you will dig into the article, there is also a chart for c of 2ppm and less.

[streamlover]

adamh, a lot of things about how H2 is dispersed in the body and comparing ingestion methods haven't even been discovered/described by researchers yet so your statements about what's better and "purity" of H2, etc. are just speculation. I don't want to get in a pissing contest similar to what you and Aconita have been doing (not productive, imo) but when you say you can get 2ppm water by pouring water in a "container" of H2 and shaking, I feel I must correct that statement in case someone is actually buying that. In the first place, how would one "pour water in a container of H2" and even if you could somehow manage some amount of H2 along with water to be in a closed container together, you need pressures greater than 1 atmosphere to get a concentration greater than 1.6ppm. Doing something like this, however accomplished, would likely yield no more than .1 or .2 ppms, if that. You should buy a test kit and test some of these wild ideas if you want to make statements like that.

[TRUGAN]

I thought about buying some mag rods from Amazon which come from Gallium Source because I could have those in a couple of days. I emailed them about the purity and whether they use the same dies to mold the magnesium as they do other metals.and told them what I wanted to use it for. They didnt answer the question about the dies but emailed a coa to me and the following statement.

 

******************************************************************************************************

 

Attached is a COA for the Magnesium rods.  This material is 99.95% pure.

 

Please be advised that we do not sell to people using our materials for human consumption.  We cannot condone the use of our products for that purpose because that would require additional licenses.  What you do with our products is at your own risk and we will bear NO responsibility for materials sold that are used for human OR animal consumption.  

 

*********************************************************************

 

​Now, Im not surprised by the statement. They'd be fools to tell you otherwise if they are not licensed for it.

Attached Files

•  Mg Rod COA.pdf   14.76KB   6 downloads

Edited by mrwhitee, 15 June 2016 - 10:53 PM.

[adamh]

adamh, a lot of things about how H2 is dispersed in the body and comparing ingestion methods haven't even been discovered/described by researchers yet so your statements about what's better and "purity" of H2, etc. are just speculation. I don't want to get in a pissing contest similar to what you and Aconita have been doing (not productive, imo) but when you say you can get 2ppm water by pouring water in a "container" of H2 and shaking, I feel I must correct that statement in case someone is actually buying that. In the first place, how would one "pour water in a container of H2" and even if you could somehow manage some amount of H2 along with water to be in a closed container together, you need pressures greater than 1 atmosphere to get a concentration greater than 1.6ppm. Doing something like this, however accomplished, would likely yield no more than .1 or .2 ppms, if that. You should buy a test kit and test some of these wild ideas if you want to make statements like that.

 

streamlover, that is interesting information. As for your question of how you could get water into a container with hydrogen, its not that hard. Fill a jar with a lid part way full with water. Then create some h gas, I've posted my methods of doing it via electrolysis or aluminum and lye. There are many other ways to get h, including the mg and acid tec. Fill a balloon or plastic bag with the gas. OK you have your jar with water in it, now put a straw or tube on the balloon or plastic bag which you insert into the water, squeeze the bag and bubble h gas into the jar until you feel its mostly h and little air. Replace the lid and voila. Or simply pour water into the jar filled with h gas, either way.

 

>Doing something like this, however accomplished, would likely yield no more than .1 or .2 ppms, if that

 

  You say that we need more than one atmosphere of pressure to get 2 ppm. OK, then the mg rods method must suffer from the same problem, correct? You say only 0.1 or 0.2 ppm will result. I'm not sure how you arrived at that figure but wouldn't that be true of the mg in water tec as well. 

 

I have no desire to get into a "pissing contest" as you put it. We are here to discuss facts and evidence, the thing I objected to about that other poster was that he never presented any of that, just opinion. With all due respect, you are doing the same in your last post. What I state is what I have found. I have found h2 gas forming by electrolysis and also by aluminum and lye. 

 

>Doing something like this, however accomplished, would likely yield no more than .1 or .2 ppms, if that. You should buy a test kit and test some of these wild ideas if you want to make statements like that.

 

Why wouldn't allowing h to remain in contact with water produce similar results to bubbling it through via mg and acid? Maybe it would take longer, I don't know. None of us really know. Lets stick to what we do know, h is being produced and some of it will dissolve in water. If people are happy with 0.1 or 0.2 ppm as you suggest is happening, then they will be equally happy with that concentration in pure water, maybe happier.

 

This brings us back to useing the gas. If water only goes up to a low level of h at 1 atmosphere, then breathing the gas would give you much more than drinking the water. Isn't that logical?

[TRUGAN]

mrwhitee, You are right about that and also Mg is actually hardly reactive at all with H2O at room temperature so all the water machine makers who claim H2 concentrations by putting some Mg in their filters are mostly just blowing smoke also. Mg will react with steam to produce H2 pretty vigorously and it reacts with boiling water to produce some H2 (about .3ppms I found when left for a few hours) but if you drop the rods in room temperature water, you will see practically no bubbles forming. I've considered doing the Mg rods alone to produce my regular drinking water because it doesn't produce any dissolved Mg salts...the reaction forms Mg(OH)2 which mostly ends up depositing on the rods...but I figured that concentration was so small as to not be worth the bother. Thinking about it now, I may give that a try for a week or so to see what I notice.

 

 

I guess I've been doing the hot water part wrong. I was heating 500ml of water in the microwave for 2 minutes but not to the boiling point because that glass water bottle I bought said not to put hot liquid in it so I was afraid that meant that it might break or something. I might try to boil the water and try it. If it breaks then it breaks.

[TRUGAN]

what do you guys think about absorbing hydrogen through the skin?

 

http://en.rocketnews...es-for-himself/

 

 

amazon USA    

 

https://www.amazon.c...=hydrogen bath

 

one of the pictures shows some kind of rod in the plastic container that the bag of chemicals go in.

 

Would we really absorb it through the skin or mostly breathe what bubbles up?

Edited by mrwhitee, 16 June 2016 - 03:38 AM.

[streamlover]

adamh, The reason Mg + acid can produce higher concentrations is the chemical reaction producing the H2 gas is very powerful and keeps generating H2 producing more H2 space in the container and correspondingly greater pressures and forcing more and more gas into solution. The bubbles in the water aren't dissolved H2...it must be forced into solution with greater pressures. I exploded several glass containers trying to find the right combination of container and seal to produce the highest manageable pressures. Just bubbling the gas through the water at 1 atmosphere will get a little into solution but not that high of concentrations, in my experience. With your described method, since you're not generating additional H2 after you seal the container, I'm just not seeing enough pressure there to force much H2 into solution. I've gone through 4 test kits getting a feel for Mg + acid method of generation. Just saying if you want to claim 2.0ppms can be generated using the method you described, buy a test kit and prove me wrong. If you can get over 1.0 using that method, I'll pay for your test kit.

[aconita]

I use the very same method brilliantly described by Steamlover in his video but the boiling water, since I do get quite hot water from the tap I use that instead of boiling water, temperature is a bit lower than boiling for sure but I still get a very strong reaction, I am unable to avoid water escaping the bottle and when I open it there is a loud pop indicating quite a bit of pressure.

 

I don't think a huge difference between boiling or very hot in terms of hydrogen generation, probably the rod used is the pitfall.

[malbecman]

 Here is a comprehensive review article.  It says its open-access so I believe everyone can read this (I'm at a University so can usually access any article).

 

http://medicalgasres...3618-015-0035-1

 

 Couple of key points I saw:

 

"Among the various routes of hydrogen administration shown in Fig. 1C, the best method still remains uncertain. This is partly because only a few reports have addressed the difference of effects among administration methods."

 

"These studies all point to the notion that hydrogen modulates intracellular signal transduction systems and regulates the downstream gene expressions to mitigate disease processes. In general, biologically active substances that modulate signaling molecules have both beneficial and noxious effects on our bodies. Hydrogen may also have undisclosed toxic effects, although none have been reported to date to the best of our knowledge."

[TRUGAN]

I broke my stick open to see how it is made and its just packed full of shaved magnesium and red balls as expected.I put a few flakes in a glass and a few drops of water which did absolutely nothing and then added a bit of malic acid to the drops and man did it start bubbling and smoking. I definitely didnt see that kind of reaction when it was encased in that white shell. It kind of smells funny or bad. Do you guys get a weird small with the mag rods and malic acid?

[aconita]

No, absolutely not.

 

Mag rods produce strong vinegar smell when dropped in...vinegar for cleaning, that's all.

 

I suggest to throw away what you got since God knows what really is.

[TRUGAN]

No, absolutely not.

 

Mag rods produce strong vinegar smell when dropped in...vinegar for cleaning, that's all.

 

I suggest to throw away what you got since God knows what really is.

 

You might be right. I also forgot to mention that the first time I did it was in a small plastic bowel and it got very hot immediately when the reaction occurred. I thought the damn plastic was going to melt. I then did it in a small glass but didnt notice any heat. Do you think maybe its just because I only used a few drops of water and sprinkled malic acid in it. Maybe your rod would do  the same if you did it that way? I definitely didn't get that kind of reaction when I put the entire stick in a bottle of water with the malic acid.

[aconita]

I guess if you only have very little water the malic acid concentration being very high will cause a very strong reaction with the mag, I get a very strong reaction with immediate heat and smoke developing when I dip the mag rods in pure vinegar for cleaning.

 

Definitely the acid concentration plays an important role in how strong the reaction is, likely quite more important than temperature.

 

In regard we have to be very thankful to Steamlover whom did spend the time and effort to experiment different concentrations and procedures in order to come up with possibly the best combination for this kind of method to produce hydrogen water.

[TRUGAN]

I guess if you only have very little water the malic acid concentration being very high will cause a very strong reaction with the mag, I get a very strong reaction with immediate heat and smoke developing when I dip the mag rods in pure vinegar for cleaning.

 

Definitely the acid concentration plays an important role in how strong the reaction is, likely quite more important than temperature.

 

In regard we have to be very thankful to Steamlover whom did spend the time and effort to experiment different concentrations and procedures in order to come up with possibly the best combination for this kind of method to produce hydrogen water.

 

 

 

Yes, he did a good job on that.

 

I started to chunk this stuff but I was wondering if the reaction was so weak because of the way the shavings are all compacted in the white tubing and if I loosen it up then perhaps more surface area would be exposed so I emptied out a couple of tea bags and divided the mag scraps in those two bags and put back in my glass bottle with the malic acid and boiling water. I had it in the freezer for 2.5 hours and then the refrigerator for 1.5 hours. I just took it out and couldnt believe how hard the cap was to turn. After I turned it enough which wasnt much it hissed and blew water all over me. The cap then looked cross threaded but it wasnt and it was still hard as hell ti turn. I wrapped a towel around it and got on it good and I swear I thought I was going to break the damn bottle before it broke loose but it finally did and made the loudest pop. I assume my theory was correct about it being compacted to much in that tubing.

 

Some of the mag scraps came out of the tea bag so I filtered the water with a coffee filter and drank it. Maybe I should just skip the tea bag and filter it every time.

 

I think the glass bottle is going to have to go as well. The screw type lid is going to be too hard to open.I did order the beer bottles with the pop off lids but the mag stick didnt fit in there with the tubing that it was encased in. That obviously wont be an issue now.

 

Anyway, Im kind of excited that I managed to produce some major gas with it. Still cant wait for the real mag rods to arrive,

[TRUGAN]

I thought of another possible way to make the water and yeah its kind of expensive but if you buy a soda stream machine which I already own and buy the Hydrogen tank from niners link then you could get some adapters to hook the Hydrogen tank up in place of the co2 tank which would pressure up the water bottle and dissolve the Hydrogen.

 

or you could fill the co2 tank with the hydrogen tank. Just connect the empty co2 to the full hydrogen tank and it should fill until both tanks equalize in pressure. Thats assuming the co2 tank could hold that pressure which needs to be verified so I'd say its probably easier to just get adapters and a regulator for the H2 tank.

 

It might be a good solution for anyone having issues with too much magnesium intake casing upset stomachs or whatever. Also, I think its almost an instant solution ready to drink.

 

I am no expert so maybe Im totally wrong but it seems like it would work.

[aconita]

Yes, that is a possibility I came up with too, as I wrote some posts ago.

 

There are issues with that, to get an adapter would not be easy, I actually think it would be likely unavailable and has to be manufactured, not a big deal but has to be made in aluminum or nylon (of which nylon would not be totally impermeable to hydrogen).

 

Another issue is that hydrogen embrittle metals therefore any metal part of the soda machine should be replaced periodically, assuming the pressure release mechanism is fit to handle hydrogen tanks pressure, of course.

 

Again hydrogen under high pressure is quite nasty since a small leak might lead to self ignition and explosion, therefore the adapter has to be fitted really properly and the soda machine checked accurately, the whole thing is potentially dangerous and needs to be handled with care.

 

Hydrogen in the CO2 tank might be not feasible since I doubt anyone would refill with hydrogen a tank not meant for hydrogen, again for safety reasons like embrittlement of the metal, leaks, pressure holding issues, etc...

 

Self filling the tank would leave you in the best scenario with half the hydrogen in the wrong tank and the above issues would still be in place.

 

The idea is fine, it would work but unless a smart way of arranging the machine is found I am afraid it would be expensive, not simple and easy... and dangerous up to a certain degree (maybe not something you like to have sitting on the kitchen table top with children around and such).

 

If we look at hydrogen is quickly found the the main issue with it is storage, without that hydrogen cars would be already around since long, it is smarter to store water and to produce hydrogen on demand, therefore I am skeptical about using hydrogen tanks for hydrogen water home production.

 

A way could be an aluminum-lime reaction in a container connected to a soda water machine, pressure should be enough but not so high to be troublesome to handle, production would be on demand and the costs much lower that with an hydrogen tank.    

[TRUGAN]

Sorry...I didnt see your posts about it.Maybe someone will figure out a better /safer way,

The mag rods will have to work for now.

 

[Daniel Cooper]

Have you guys considered getting your hydrogen from a welding gas supplier? 

 

I called and my local supplier quoted me a T size cylinder filled for $86 and then $10/month rental on the cylinder.  That's actually bigger than I would want, I was thinking of a small 40 cu ft cylinder but that's the only way he supplied hydrogen.  I think you would find other welding gas suppliers would give you more options, particularly if you lived in a larger city.

 

You'd need a regulator and a bubbler.  

 

 

 

 

[TRUGAN]

Have you guys considered getting your hydrogen from a welding gas supplier? 

 

I called and my local supplier quoted me a T size cylinder filled for $86 and then $10/month rental on the cylinder.  That's actually bigger than I would want, I was thinking of a small 40 cu ft cylinder but that's the only way he supplied hydrogen.  I think you would find other welding gas suppliers would give you more options, particularly if you lived in a larger city.

 

You'd need a regulator and a bubbler.  

 

 

I was looking at Airgas supply last week which is just down the street for me but I havent had time to call them for prices yet. They have different grades available. I think the research grade is what we need.

Attached Files

•  P27-P28_Hydrogen_Pure_Gases.pdf   227.48KB   5 downloads

[aconita]

A bubbler will be of little help, you'll need a way to place the water under pressure while bubbling in hydrogen, which might be not as easy, converting a soda water machine would probably be the most feasible way but not necessarily easy.

 

I would not be worried about research grade since as you can see impurities are oxygen and water, I am not sure about THC which if it is tetrahydrocannabinol would be just a bonus...but unfortunately I guess it isn't.

[adamh]

Have you guys considered getting your hydrogen from a welding gas supplier? 

 

I called and my local supplier quoted me a T size cylinder filled for $86 and then $10/month rental on the cylinder.  That's actually bigger than I would want, I was thinking of a small 40 cu ft cylinder but that's the only way he supplied hydrogen.  I think you would find other welding gas suppliers would give you more options, particularly if you lived in a larger city.

 

You'd need a regulator and a bubbler.  

 

You definitely need a regulator and some hose. However, a bubbler is not really needed, you can always get an airstone for aquariums but no need. I laugh at those who say pressure is needed, yes pressure will cause more h to be dissolved, but take a look at the mg rods and acid tec. No pressure there yet reports say plenty of h is in the water. Therefore, pressure is not needed to get enough dissolved.

 

That begs the question of why dissolve in water anyway? Sure you can do it but breathing h2 gas is quicker and arguably more effective. I suggest getting a tank of h with regulator and hose, flooding a glass jar containing pure water and cap it up. Shake from time to time and you will have your h water plus the excess h gas in the jar. Let it sit a few hours or overnight. 

 

To use just open the lid a little, breath in and hold. Repeat until you have gotten the h, then you can drink the h water thereby getting h via the gut as well as via the lungs. I can detect h by the little buzz it gives me. Its sort of like breathing nitrous. I can tell when I've exhausted the h in my jar when the buzz goes down a lot. I now use aluminum plus lye to generate h gas, it goes much faster than electrolysis. I can get a large glass full in an hour or so. I could do it in a minute if I used a higher concentration of lye. However, I don't drink the water using that tec, it would be too full of junk. 

[aconita]

Adamh, you never tried the magnesium/malic acid that's why you keep telling nonsenses as that there is no pressure.

 

Do yourself a favor: try it or watch Steamlover video posted here in order to get some proper knowledge about the process instead of rely on totally wrong assumptions.

 

Without pressure you are not getting any appreciable amount of hydrogen (or any other gas, for that matter) in the water, period.

 

It's just middle school chemistry, not rocket science.

 

About breathing hydrogen being more effective than drinking hydrogen water research seems to state the opposite and it has been posted here as well, but in despite of it you know better, of course.

 

Everybody is free to believe what wished but to give wrong information to others in a public forum needs to be corrected, nothing personal, of course.

 

[adamh]

>Without pressure you are not getting any appreciable amount of hydrogen (or any other gas, for that matter) in the water, period.

 

And this is based on what facts? Got any links to support that? The malic acid mg tec is fine but the tiny bit of pressure its under is unlikely to make any difference. How many atmospheres are we talking about, 1.2? Most people speak of using it in an open container anyway.

 

>About breathing hydrogen being more effective than drinking hydrogen water research seems to state the opposite and it has been posted here as well, but in despite of it you know better, of course.

 

Oh really, I see no research posted here saying what you claim. I have posted numerous links showing benefits of breathing hydrogen and others have posted links as well. Where are your links showing breathing hydrogen not being effective? I've seen none and I'm sure you have posted none. You give your opinion which is fine but then nothing to back it with, no links, no scientific articles. I have posted both as have a couple other people but you ignore that.

 

>Everybody is free to believe what wished but to give wrong information to others in a public forum needs to be corrected, nothing personal, of course.

 

Indeed, but I give up trying to correct your misinformation. I am out of this thread unless I see a good reason to comment again. I have posted my links, given my experimental results, but no more. You have started with personal attacks which have no place in a scientific discussion.

[junkcrap50]

Ladies and Gentlemen, I'm here to save the day. I found a solution to everything. Granted, it may not be as cost effective as @streamlover's magnesium stick + malic acid method, but it is the easiest way yet and can,reach up to 7.0 ppm dissolved hydrogen. I made an LongeCity account just to post this information.

 

Before I get to saving the day, I would like to contribute my ideas regarding other people's posts and alternative DIY methods for making hydrogen water. I will post the rest, including the solution to everything, later tonight.

 

I) Initial Thoughts:

1. First, from my point of view, I side with the idea of drinking hydrogen water to be easier than breathing hydrogen produced by electrolysis. Just my gut instinct, and a more personal convenience. @adamh may have found breathing hydrogen more convenient to him, which I respect. Also, I don't mind consuming the magnesium since I have CFS and am low in magnesium. I do however, would mind drinking that much acidic water. So ideally, I would like to be drinking alkaline or neutral, high PPM hydrogen water.
2. Why the heck are you guys buying magnesium metal off ebay and from China? Buy it from any US based scientific materials company such as Sigma Aldrich, Thomas Scientific, Fisher Science, etc. You don't need a license or anything special to buy from them. They have 99.998% pure magnesium rods, strips, chips, powders.
3. I think @Streamlover 's technique could be optimized using Stoichiometry to maximize hydrogen and minimize magnesium and malic acid. I plan on doing a bunch of stoichiometry calculations for this to see ideal amount of Mg and malic acid. I will do calculations using other methods to see the conditions needed for 3.5ppm+. I also think his method could be improved by using magnesium metal powder. Using powder, will expose a larger surface of magnesium for the hydrogen ions from the malic acid to react with. It should also minimize the mangesium oxide (MgO) formed, which prevents more of the magnesium stick from reacting.
4. THC = Total Hydrocarbons, like Methane, Ethane, Propane, Hexane, etc.
5. Pressure is needed to increase H2 concentration. Henry's Law, which is c = P_P/k_a , describes the solubility of gases in solution. And Streamlover's magnesium stick method does increase the pressure inside the bottle in the air above the waterline as H2 is produced.

II) Hydrogen At-Home Carbination

To me, I would think that the easiest, highest ppm, and likely cheapest in terms of $0.01 per dose of hydrogen, would be to imitate a DIY, at-home carbonation setup. I have read the whole thread and @aconita and other's concerns about using highly pressurized hydrogen, including but not limited to hydrogen leaking, ignition, and metal weakening. I think that metal weakening is more of a long term prospect, requiring annual or semi annual replacement of parts. Also, the part most subject to metal weakening is the tank and the primary valve on top of the tank, since the other parts would only be in contact with hydrogen during water filling. Also, looking at lecture-sized tanks of hydrogen say storage time is indefinite if stored safely. Storage and ignition are concerns for me, but metal shops store hydrogren all the time in larger quantities and pressures.

 

DIY Carbination Setup is very easy and simple. It would be the same copied from these links, but would change the tank of C0₂ to H₂:

• http://www.popsci.co...bonation-system
• http://www.seriousea...eplacement.html
• http://truetex.com/carbonation.htm (lots of detail and info)

As you can see from the links, the materials required are:

-Gas tank (Instead, use hydrogen in lecture-sized tank¹ or smallest tank available, note grade³ or purity of H₂ gas)

-2 Dial Pressure Regulator²

-Tubing (preferably PET plastic)

-Ball-Lock Keg Tap (brass ideal, but PET plastic next best)

-Carbonation Bottle Cap⁴ (brass ideal, but PET plastic next best)

-Bottle (plastic bottle that can handle pressures)

 

¹Other links for a small hydrogen tanks are here: 14L bottle, lecture sized tank. Yes, even at $240 (one can shop around too), I think buying a tank like this would be cheaper per glass of hydrogen water. I'll do the math and post it later to confirm. The # of moles (or mass) of hydrogen gas needed would be very small to hydrogenate a liter of water. And you can still achieve high partial pressure of the hydrogen gas above the water, by minimizing the volume for the hydrogen. The volume left over in the tubes would be minimized and marginal.

 

²Signma Aldrich, Finn Scientific, or where ever you would order your hydrogen gas from recommends the type of regulator to use with hydrogen gas. A brass material regulator is suggeste

 

³I found the same catalog sheet from Airgas as @Mrwhitetee and noted the purity grades. THC = Total Hydrocarbons, so methane, ethane, propane, hexane, etc. Keep in mind, 1 PPM of THC or CO is 1 molecule for every million molecules of H₂, which when dissolved in water is for then for every million water molecule. So, using @Streamlover's concentration of 3.6ppm it's really (1 PPM CO)*(3.6 PPM H2) = 3.6 PPTrillion CO in water. When thinking of it that way, it's unlikely we'd need research grade. However, I would have to think about it more and weigh cost differences.

 

⁴These caps allow the bottle to be kept under pressure, so you could theoretically keep several hydrogen waters in the fridge. Yes, some H2 would escape through the plastic, but it loss of partial pressure of hydrogen above the water would be very small and the high pressure above the water would keep the hydrogen in solution.

 

A bubbler not needed. You can get more gas dissolved by shaking the water than using a bubbler. (You can shake a fish tank, hence bubblers are used) Just need the gas in the space above the water. Supersatured hydrogen water is done by shaking and higher partial pressure. The hydrogen water with 5.0-10.0 ppm in some research papers was done by shaking the bottles (http://medicalgasres...3618-015-0034-2).

 

 

III. Modified DIY Hydrogen Carbination

If someone is worried about using a tank of hydrogen gas from a scientific supply company for either safety, storage, purity, or cost reasons, you could use the same materials/components, but replace the gas canister tank with a reaction vessel in which you create your own hydrogen in via an aluminum + lime reaction or sodium borohydride + water reaction.

 

Some brainstorming on what kind of container to do the reaction in would be required. Some sort of high pressure bottle or plastic jar or something. Then connect the reaction vessel to same regulator (or similar valve), then to tubing, then to the ball lock keg tap, then to the carbination cap, and then to your water bottle.

 

This method would require you to do stoichiometry and other PV=nrT calculations so you don't exceed the pressure capabilities of your reaction vessel and water bottle, essentially creating a bomb. I think would probably be the easiest and cheapest method for most people, since you wouldn't have to worry about tanks of hydrogen, refilling them, sending them back, etc. However, some chemistry and math would have to happen.

 

If you could easily store the hydrogen water in the fridge while under pressure with hydrogen without much leaking, I favor this method the most, since you could fill a bunch of water bottles at one time with the built up H2 pressure from the reaction vessel.

 

 

IV. DIY Gas Permeable Film + Check Valve Tube Method

This DIY method is replicating Methods I & II as seen in this research paper: http://medicalgasres...3618-015-0034-2 Some brainstorming and ideas for replicating this method have been done, but I have some ideas to contribute. I believe Method II in the paper just keeps the gas permeable film packet separate from the drinking water by inserting it into an acrylic tube. Once the hydrogen generating container is made, any chemical reaction that makes H2 could be used.

 

Check Valve: To create the tube with check valve, I would use a disposable check valve frequently used in medical equipment such as IV lines and other devices. See a selection here: http://www.qosina.com/check-valves Some experiementation on which one would be best would be needed, based on which size fitting would fit the tube best and what pressure setting the check valve is set to.

 

Tube: The tube connecting to the check valve would likely be a plastic test tube or even just plastic PET tubing cut short to the desired length. The choice would be dependent on getting a good seal/fit with the valve. A plug or cap on the other end of the tubing would seal it. Tubing cut short would also make the container easy to clean from the H2 generating chemical reaction. The problem with this is that it's been hard to find matching sizes between the tube and valve. Maybe the 22mm check valve with 22mm test tube or tubing, but I couldn't find a non-glass 22mm test tube (remember we'll be shaking the water bottle)

 

Another possibility is to use a plastic test tube with screw on cap. Then drill a small hole in the cap that will accept a check valve with narrow diameter inlet and epoxy the check valve to the screw on cap. This is probably much easier than matching sizes of tubes.

 

If anyone can find a tube with a LuerLok that accepts, that would be ideal, but I couldn't.

 

Gas Permeable Film: Now, if the check valve works properly and there are good seals, I don't think you'd need a this gas permeable film. However, I did come up with a possible solution: Gas permeable film = tea bag. See this article about the material new tea bags are made out of: http://www.theatlant...plastic/274482/ Newer teabags are made out of plastic, either food grade nylon or polyethylene terephthalate (PET) plastic. I would think it would be very easy to acquire samples of these tea bag materials. Or even easier, just sacrifice a herbal tea bag that uses a silky pouch/bag. From researching tea bags for this post, the raw film/material can come to be heat-sealable.You could seal two ends of the film together using a soldering iron (laying two layers on top and drawing a pocket) or heating a metal in the shape you want to create your mini hydrogen teabag.

 

The thing with the tea bag material is I'm not entirely sure that none of the chemical reactants would not escape. I don't know how fine the mesh is or if it is a mesh. That may be big the flaw in this idea.

 

Just googling "gas permeable films" produced a lot of stuff. So a more in depth search may find a solution for this.

 

 

V. Optimizing Streamlover's Magnesium and Malic Acid Method

I will do the stoichiometry calculations for this at a later time. Magnesium powder should be used.

 

 

VI. Save the Day Solution

Will post this part later tonight.

 

[TRUGAN]

Yes, please save the day. This shouldnt be too difficult.

 

I called Airgas earlier today for pricing on the research grade but they needed to check on it and call me back. Ill try and get pricing for the other grades when they call back.

[streamlover]

LongeLurker, Lots of great ideas here and good research to maybe inject some new life in our quest for a better method. I'm sure we'll all need some time to chew on these ideas but I applaud you on the direction you've taken. I think you may find some of the materials mentioned are more costly than you think (e.g. 99.99% Mg powder) but that doesn't mean we can't develop and refine a method with this start that will be acceptable cost-wise and provide high ppm H2 water much cheaper than any current commercial product. Looking forward to further posts.

[aconita]

Nice to have one more constructive participant at this discussion.

 

 

Using powder, will expose a larger surface of magnesium for the hydrogen ions from the malic acid to react with. It should also minimize the mangesium oxide (MgO) formed, which prevents more of the magnesium stick from reacting.

 

 

Yes, but unless all the mag powder goes in solution I suspect it would be a bit more bitchy to take out of the bottle, place in vinegar to eliminate oxidation, filter, wash and reuse.

 

Consider in some case you have to do that more than once a day every day....

 

The rods gets sparkly clean from oxidation with just a couple of seconds immersion in vinegar, I can't see any issue here.

 

THC = Total Hydrocarbons, like Methane, Ethane, Propane, Hexane, etc.

 

Bummer!

 

I knew it was looking too good to be true....

 

The gas permeable membrane has to be water impermeable which a tea bag would not be or contamination will occur.

 

The carbonation system with hydrogen tank is cool but very expensive to set up compared to mag/malic.

 

I like better the carbonation (should we say "hydrogenation"?) with hydrogen production on demand via lime/aluminum which I personally consider the best candidate for an alternative mag free hydrogen water.

 

On regard it seems we know the material for the reaction container has to be preferably plexiglass (which, by the way, is easy to work with) since it would not react and it is very pressure resistant (and not toxic, which is always a bonus).

 

The keg couplings shown in the links for the carbonation home made system seems cool and solve the issue of getting the gas in the bottle under pressure, good find!

 

I would add a bubbler, which is just a tiny bit of pipe forcing the gas under the water surface (as it is done in commercial soda water machines), in order to be able to get away with less shaking afterwards if any.

 

A valve is not difficult or expensive at all.

 

The pressure gauge might be done with a cheap bicycle inflating pump gauge since absolute precision is not needed in this kind of set up... 

 

What would be really cool to know in order to properly size the plexiglass container are the rough amounts of lime, aluminum and water needed to achieve, lets say, 50PSI for a 1l water bottle.

[aconita]

Here you go:

 

http://www.ebay.com/...x8AAOSwMNxXbFY6

 

[junkcrap50]

VI. Save the Day Solution
Ok. Here’s my big discovery. (At least, I felt it was huge when reading this thread and discovering it. Likely raised expectations too high). I found a consumer product that achieves 7.0ppm of hydrogen using the exact same technique and methods found in the research papers.

1. See Method II in this familiar research paper (pictures C & D). It claims to have achieved 8-10ppm water (and that’s 7 days after producing hydrogen and leaving it in the bottle unopened). http://medicalgasres...3618-015-0034-2
2. This research was done by MiZ Co. Ltd. Scroll half-way down to see same research as in the paper above: http://www.e-miz.co....technology.html
3. Searching Google about MiZ Company, lead me to my big discovery (at least it felt it was huge when I found it). This company and product here: http://7ppm-suisosui...company_en.html
4. Big Discovery: http://7ppm-suisosui.jp/index_en.html

Someone has commercialized and are selling the product from Method II (pictures C & D) in the research paper.

 suisosui h2 test tube close up.jpg   40.92KB   4 downloads  suisosui water 7.0 kit.jpg   261.51KB   4 downloads

They don't have very good pictures of the important bits, but there are several videos on youtube (in Japanese) that review the product where you can get a good look. Here are some of the better youtube videos:

• https://www.youtube....h?v=UOE64XqVtlo (how it works)
• https://www.youtube....h?v=4VKtJHnuMPw (how it works)
• https://www.youtube....h?v=oWQI4EMoNg8 (measuring ORP)
• https://www.youtube....h?v=UxmhY6Ub98g (measuring H2 ppm)
• https://www.youtube....h?v=Vkki_KS4zRE (measuring H2 ppm - I didn't count the drops)
• https://www.youtube....h?v=NKHT0CJ5u4c (Good inspiration on how to do modified DIY hydrogen carbonation. Note reaction vessel producing hydrogen with connecting tube.)

Pricing:
For some reason, on the English website, you can't see the prices for the products, nor does their shopping cart work. You have to go to the Japanese language website and use an online translator. I've listed prices from the main company's site below. Other online places may be cheaper.

• All-in-one Kit               =   9800 Yen   =   $95.90
• 30 Hydrogen Refills    =   7800 Yen   =   $76.33   =   $2.54/day
• 3 Extra Test Tubes      =   1296 Yen   =  $12.68
• 3 Extra Eye Droppers  =    154 Yen   =   $ 1.51
• 3 Extra Bottles             =    247 Yen   =   $ 2.42
• Shipping to USA          =   No idea.

Conclusion:
Hope this helps and is interesting to everyone. Now that my excitement of reading this thread and discovering this product has worn off a bit, I realize I likely raised expectations too high and was premature in touting my discovery. Sorry. Reading this thread just pumped me up about molecular hydrogen! This product is likely too expensive ($2.54/day!) and not convenient ordering from Japan. I am leaning towards buying one kit to try it out and examine the materials of the gas-permeable film, check valve, and test tube. 
 
However, buying just the test tubes and inserting your own mix of Aluminum and Lime or other reactants would probably be worth it. I don't know if the gas-permeable film is needed. Also, they also claim they use pressure resistant PET bottles, which I don't think is needed. The research paper says it generated 6 ATM or 88.2 psi (using 0.65g of reactants). A 2-liter soda bottle can easily hold 100psi.
 
Hopefully in the future, a US company buys the license from Miz Co. Ltd. and starts selling it here for cheaper. I look forward to continue brainstorming about ideas in this thread. I think a easy solution agreeable to everyone will be found.