623 replies to this topic

[junkcrap50]

Nice to have one more constructive participant at this discussion.

 

Using powder, will expose a larger surface of magnesium for the hydrogen ions from the malic acid to react with. It should also minimize the mangesium oxide (MgO) formed, which prevents more of the magnesium stick from reacting.

 

 

Yes, but unless all the mag powder goes in solution I suspect it would be a bit more bitchy to take out of the bottle, place in vinegar to eliminate oxidation, filter, wash and reuse.

 

Consider in some case you have to do that more than once a day every day....

 

The rods gets sparkly clean from oxidation with just a couple of seconds immersion in vinegar, I can't see any issue here.

[See reply 1]

 

THC = Total Hydrocarbons, like Methane, Ethane, Propane, Hexane, etc.

 

Bummer!

 

I knew it was looking too good to be true....

 

The gas permeable membrane has to be water impermeable which a tea bag would not be or contamination will occur.

 

The carbonation system with hydrogen tank is cool but very expensive to set up compared to mag/malic.

 

I like better the carbonation (should we say "hydrogenation"?) with hydrogen production on demand via lime/aluminum which I personally consider the best candidate for an alternative mag free hydrogen water.

 

On regard it seems we know the material for the reaction container has to be preferably plexiglass (which, by the way, is easy to work with) since it would not react and it is very pressure resistant (and not toxic, which is always a bonus).

[See reply 2]

 

The keg couplings shown in the links for the carbonation home made system seems cool and solve the issue of getting the gas in the bottle under pressure, good find!

 

I would add a bubbler, which is just a tiny bit of pipe forcing the gas under the water surface (as it is done in commercial soda water machines), in order to be able to get away with less shaking afterwards if any.

[See reply 3]

 

A valve is not difficult or expensive at all.

 

The pressure gauge might be done with a cheap bicycle inflating pump gauge since absolute precision is not needed in this kind of set up... 

 

What would be really cool to know in order to properly size the plexiglass container are the rough amounts of lime, aluminum and water needed to achieve, lets say, 50PSI for a 1l water bottle.

[See reply 4]

 

1. The magnesium powder would be entirely consumed in reaction forming Mg-malate,-citrate,-etc. So long as it's the limiting reactant, there would be excess malic acid. There would be no point trying to clean the powder; I agree, It would be a huge pain. Currently, there is excess magnesium in relation to the malic acid (obviously - huge stick left over). When the malic acid runs out, magnesium hydroxide Mg(OH)₂ forms on the stick and needs to be cleaned off for future reactions, which I agree is easy and convenient. Perhaps the rods seems easier to most people because how to calculate the relative amounts of magnesium and malic acid (or other acid) is unknown or too daunting. It's relatively simple and I will spell it out in this thread soon - giving a basic blueprint on how to do it  that you could plug values in for different materials and reactions.

 

2. I agree that the easiest and cheapest method will probably be the DIY Hydrogenation method you mention above and what I described in Section III of my first post. You can use any chemical reaction you want; the chemical reaction is seperate from the water; very cheap, easy, and safe; can fill multiple bottles in one sitting using the keg tap and carbination cap; and best of all, pleases both water drinkers and H₂ inhalers (@adamh) at the same time (just hook another valve and hose to it). I think really any container that's easy to acquire, nonreactive/nontoxic, and pressure resistant would work. Most plastic jars or bottles should be fine. The lid would be tougher to find. Best would be a lid with an outlet or tube barbed fitting (drilling and gluing your own in would work too). See the last youtube video in my post above for an idea what someone uses.

• Whoever posted the video seem to have a website that sells H2 water stuff here: http://jisakusuisosui.net/?1466872867 (need to use google to translate)
• In the video on this page, they use an interesting technique similar to 7ppm-Water by Suisosui with a test tube but without a check valve. Seems it takes 24 hours though. http://jisakusuisosu...hp?product_id=1

3. Sure, bubblers would work if you want. I don't know how effective they are in supersaturating gases in liquids, so some experimentation and data with ppm it makes would be real cool. For me, it's hard to imagine how the setup would work, keeping a cap on it while using a bubbler at the same time. Yes, commercial soda machines use bubblers when they make their carbonated water on site.

 

4. I'll take care of that when I have some free time and will try to make it as simple as I can, as well as use a framework, so different variables such as container size and reactants could be easily plugged in. I'll also calculate the theoretical pressure needed for specific H2 ppm; how many water bottles you could fill up, etc. The math or chemistry isn't very hard. It's basic stoichiometery and 1 or 2 equations. However, I can't promise getting this done very soon.

[streamlover]

The Aquella product is certainly a good find. I had contacted the MiZ company several times to try to get info on any products using any of the "methods" they had developed, asking for pricing, etc. and they were pretty uncooperative with giving information on products although they did allude to there being something on the market. I think at some point they realized I was interested in just the H2-generating container and said flatly they couldn't sell it to me without the packets of reacting material. Could have been some translation issues with the email, I suppose, but I had the sense they were very worried someone would use their ideas without buying their product. I would have happily paid for the whole kit to get the test tubes with the check valves. If I can order just a few of these I will do it because that's all that is needed. Their little pouches are just Mg powder (or Al) most likely and the liquid they inject is just a weak acid. The check valve prevents Mg or Al from getting in the drinking water. By the way, it's not $2.74/day but $2.74 per 16 oz of 5-7ppm water. I'm still convinced drinking more than 16oz/day is needed to start noticing the best results. I would be spending over $10/day if I used their product as sold. But all I need is their "test tubes" so I will investigate just ordering these.

 

By the way, the product I mentioned earlier that is supposed to get ppms gt 7 is supposed to hit the market sometime in July, according to the guy who developed it. It's a pill but much better than the pills currently on the market evidently. That may be cost effective for the added convenience and higher concentrations.

 

Aconita is right about it being inconvenient to clean the residue from the Mg or Al powder (or pills) from the reacting containers. With these little test tubes, I'm thinking I can just submerge them in vinegar for a minute or so and it will dissolve whatever is binding the residue to the container and allow it to be rinsed out.

[TRUGAN]

I keep having problems with the pressure getting too high and blowing the seal upwards on the bottle. Every once in a while it holds and I get a loud pop but most often the seal pops up before Im ready for it. Tonight it happened some time after 3 hours.

Attached Files

•  20160625_225059.jpg   55.95KB   1 downloads

Edited by mrwhitee, 26 June 2016 - 04:01 AM.

[aconita]

Thanks to the above links I have been able to find the patent:

 

https://www.google.c...cnoBR8Q6AEIIzAB

 

Which includes the name of the gas permeable membranes used which are actually two:

 

Pureshize Regular C5160 Asahi Kasei Corporation

 

Tyvek 1433C Asahi Dupont flash spun Products Co., Ltd.

 

The latter Tyvec1433C seems the most used and likely preferable.

 

As clearly shown in the video they provide ready to use gas permeable membrane bags (already filled with the aluminum/lime),  Hydrogen Refills as they call it, those are crazy expensive at 2.54$ each.

 

They are crazy expensive especially if considered that Tyvec basically cost almost nothing in the amount required:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyvek

 

https://www.amazon.c...h=i:aps,k:Tyvek

 

Tyvek is heat weldable and glue-able, therefore no big deal here to make the container.

 

The test tube equipped with a check valve lid is over expensive but will last forever therefore feasible, it would not be difficult to adapt a few cent check valve to fit a glass tube or plexiglass container in order to save hard earned money.

 

http://www.ebay.com/...k valve&_sop=15

 

At this stage to easily and CHEAPLY reproduce this hydrogen water production method is very achievable, thanks to the contribution of LOngeLurker, of course.

[aconita]

Steamlover, after reading the patents and research papers I am pretty sure they use lime/aluminum in the gas permeable pouch and add just few drops of water in the glass pipe to start the reaction, the membrane is moisture permeable but liquid impermeable therefore adding acid wouldn't work, adding water will allow moisture to get in the pouch and do the trick.

 

They were reluctant to give out information because they do know the whole thing is actually very simple and achievable once you know the trick...and now we know it!

 

Mrwhitee, I didn't experience your issue with the bottle lid but I do experience leaks.

 

I keep the bottle always lying on the side in such a way the neck of the bottle is full of water, it is a trick I learned from an old paint shop owner: he keeps all paint cans upside down, the paint is thicker than the solvent vapors, of course, and doesn't leak from the can providing at the same time an extra seal for the solvent vapors, shelf life is greatly improved, almost indefinitely he claims.

 

According to the same principle if the bottle neck is full of water the hydrogen gas is trapped elsewhere (not under the lid) and doesn't escape from the lid as pressure rises...but some water does due to really high pressure.

 

I partially solved or at least improved the issue bending a little bit the metal frame with pliers in such a way that the lid closes much tighter (shortening the frame), it makes harder to close but the tightness improve the seal.

 

You might not realize the hydrogen leak with an upright bottle but you will notice the water leak if the bottle is tilted, when it is ready to drink I can distinctly hear the hydrogen leaking from the lid with an hiss as I move the bottle to an upright position.  

 

 

[junkcrap50]

Thanks to the above links I have been able to find the patent:

 

https://www.google.c...cnoBR8Q6AEIIzAB

 

Which includes the name of the gas permeable membranes used which are actually two:

 

Pureshize Regular C5160 Asahi Kasei Corporation

 

Tyvek 1433C Asahi Dupont flash spun Products Co., Ltd.

 

The latter Tyvec1433C seems the most used and likely preferable.

 

As clearly shown in the video they provide ready to use gas permeable membrane bags (already filled with the aluminum/lime),  Hydrogen Refills as they call it, those are crazy expensive at 2.54$ each.

Ah Tyvek! I should have known or thought of that! That's a brillant find! Thanks for digging for the patent. Searching patents can be a real pain sometimes.

 

Steamlover, after reading the patents and research papers I am pretty sure they use lime/aluminum in the gas permeable pouch and add just few drops of water in the glass pipe to start the reaction, the membrane is moisture permeable but liquid impermeable therefore adding acid wouldn't work, adding water will allow moisture to get in the pouch and do the trick.

Yes, it's aluminum + lime with a few drops of water. Their research paper even gives the ratio betwen aluminum and lime.

 

 

Now, I just have to buy some supplies and get started with this.

[aconita]

Tyvek wristbands are 1"x10" which should make for 2 pouches 1/2"x5", price on eBay is so low it might be not worth to clean and reuse.

 

By the meter is even cheaper but wristbands save the cutting process for the lazy ones.

 

It comes in sleeve shape too as for desiccants pouches, maybe it is possible to find rolls of it in the right width, it would save time since the welding could be done only on the two short sides. 

[TRUGAN]

Steamlover, after reading the patents and research papers I am pretty sure they use lime/aluminum in the gas permeable pouch and add just few drops of water in the glass pipe to start the reaction, the membrane is moisture permeable but liquid impermeable therefore adding acid wouldn't work, adding water will allow moisture to get in the pouch and do the trick.

 

They were reluctant to give out information because they do know the whole thing is actually very simple and achievable once you know the trick...and now we know it!

 

Mrwhitee, I didn't experience your issue with the bottle lid but I do experience leaks.

 

I keep the bottle always lying on the side in such a way the neck of the bottle is full of water, it is a trick I learned from an old paint shop owner: he keeps all paint cans upside down, the paint is thicker than the solvent vapors, of course, and doesn't leak from the can providing at the same time an extra seal for the solvent vapors, shelf life is greatly improved, almost indefinitely he claims.

 

According to the same principle if the bottle neck is full of water the hydrogen gas is trapped elsewhere (not under the lid) and doesn't escape from the lid as pressure rises...but some water does due to really high pressure.

 

I partially solved or at least improved the issue bending a little bit the metal frame with pliers in such a way that the lid closes much tighter (shortening the frame), it makes harder to close but the tightness improve the seal.

 

You might not realize the hydrogen leak with an upright bottle but you will notice the water leak if the bottle is tilted, when it is ready to drink I can distinctly hear the hydrogen leaking from the lid with an hiss as I move the bottle to an upright position.  

 

 

Thanks for the tips. I will try and lay it down to see if that helps. What would be nice is a screw on cap with a pressure relief valve or some kind of cap with a ball valve on it to relieve the pressure and then unscrew.

Edited by mrwhitee, 28 June 2016 - 12:40 AM.

[TRUGAN]

Did anyone figure out how to order from that link in Japan? The one with the kit that comes with the tubes.,

[aconita]

A relief valve is not a good idea in this kind of setting since pressure is needed for hydrogen to dissolve in water.

 

You can find a screw cap bottle as an aluminum bottle for bicycle or hiking, the thing is those bottles might be lined with plastic in the inside and hot water might help do dissolve some unwanted compounds (see endocrine disruptors) or it might not be lined and then acidic water and aluminum would likely lead to some aluminum to dissolve (it is not 100% sure but aluminum accumulation might be involved in Alzheimer) ...both scenarios might be undesirable.   

[junkcrap50]

Found some great links and products that may help anyone build their hydrogen water setup.

 

1.Pat's Backcountry Carbonator Bottle: Essentially, it is the 7.0ppm test tube reaction chamber built into the lid of a nalgeen water bottle. It was made so that you could take beer with you camping. Here's how it works, which doesn't explain why you pump water in the first step. This video here explains you're putting water into the camp, so you can then pump into the reaction chamber. I can't say what the risk of the reactants getting into the main solution is - pressure is be equal on both sides of the valve(s?). It must be why the videos explain to shake side to side. Using food-safe reactants (like Mg + malic acid), should be okay.

• @Streamlover, this would be great for you or anyone who doesn't want to consume a lot of magnesium. You could even pump very hot water into the lid, then poor ice-cold water into the bottle to minimize time in the freezer/fridge. This makes the process pretty easy.
• This may be the simplest solution yet!

 

2. DIY CO2 Kit for Aquariums: Theses kits provide the bottle caps, tubes, valve, and pressure gauge to create a DIY hydrogenation setup without using a high-pressure tank of H2 gas. A 2-liter bottle with Al + lime would replace the tank. The downside is that these parts don't have a gas-regulator (which you can buy for aquariums, but are expensive), which controls the the amount of pressure you put into your hydrogen-water bottle. So the pressure in your reaction vessel would have to be safe to transfer into any bottle you use. If you look up 2-liter soda bottle pressure testing videos on youtube, they can safely handle 125psi. A pressure around 80psi (which is what the 7.0ppm Suisosui test tubes create in their bottles) should be more than enough. You'd just have to calculate the amount of reactants or bleed excess pressure out. Another downside is that you may have to use a carbonator check valve cap. I don't know how much hydrogen you lose, if you take the cap off and then put a normal cap on. You definitely would since the partial pressure of hydrogen above the water would be gone, and dissolve H2 would escape into the air pocket above the water.

 

3. Fizz Giz Carbonator Caps: These are much cheaper than then the normal blue, ball-lock carbonator caps and can be used with a inflation needle/cone. They seem to just use the same kind of valve as in basketballs/footballs, so you could make your own easily. (Other DIY carbonator caps with tire valves steams may contain lead, FYI). On the creator's youtube page, he has a videos showing how to make your own diy valve and other interesting videos. There is some concern on how good the seal would work with hydrogen, however. Personally, I'm looking to keep H2ppm levels above satisfactory levels for a week. That way, I could do a bunch of hydrogen water bottles and keep them in the fridge.

 

4. Carbonation Stone: These are used to carbonate beer kegs without shaking the keg. They attach to a carbonator cap with a dip tube (barbed fitting). After looking at them some more, I realized aconita is right about them. If you could slowly bleed H2 through them, the were be a lot of surface area for the H2 to dissolve into the water.

 

Cheers!

Edited by LongeLurker, 29 June 2016 - 09:24 PM.

[streamlover]

LongeLurker, The Backcountry carbonator bottle looks the simplest to try and well worth the effort if it works. Not sure how the generated gas is released into the drinking water and whether there's any kind of check valve involved or not but even it it only stops a decent percentage of the Mg salt from entering the drinking water, it could be great. I will test it with the Mg + malic so worst case, it should be as good as I'm getting now. I still have some H2 Blue reagent so I will report concentrations of H2 obtained. My stomach can be the guide as to whether it's blocking much Mg malate from entering the drinking water. I found the bottle on Ebay for $35.

 

I'm not picturing how the aquarium kit can be used for our purposes...maybe you could explain? It seems in their drawing the CO2 output is being bubbled into the tank so I'm not seeing how the AL+lime bottle replaces the tank.

 

I haven't figured yet either how to order from that Japanese website...anyone else try yet?

 

Thx, LongeLurker, for the good research.

 

 

[aconita]

The Backcountry carbonator bottle is likely not suitable for aluminum/lime because risk of water contamination and since the reaction is quite wild the heat generated might damage the plastic container, it would be fine for mag powder/malic acid and likely yielding a much lower mag/malic amount in the water (the acidic taste of the water should tell you) but I doubt it would achievable an hydrogen concentration in the water as seen with the aluminum/lime.

 

The aquarium kit is quite cool and relatively inexpensive, the pressure gauge is just fit to our scope since max pressure reading is in the 80 PSI range, a bicycle pump gauge leaves more room.

 

The gas flow regulator is cool and the pipes too, all together it might be not too bad for the price.

 

The caps provided need appropriate bottles...maybe easier said than done.., anyway those caps are not the most difficult part of the system.

 

A plexiglass tank (because reaction develops heat and material has to be resistant enough) in which lime and aluminum powder or aluminum wrapping bits plus water are reacting producing hydrogen, the container is closed tight, the cap or the container itself has two holes, one hole connected to the pressure gauge in order to monitor hydrogen pressure, the other hole connected by a pipe to another container (which can be a simple soda bottle), between those two containers the gas flow regulator is placed in order to open the flow only when the required pressure is shown on the gauge (about 80PSI).

 

This second container acts as a hydrogen gas purifier, again two holes in the cap or the container the "in" coming from the hydrogen generator (first container) goes below the water surface (the container is half full of water), the "out" hole is well above the water surface.

 

Hydrogen gets in the container bubbling below the water surface and gets purified of any unwanted compound, rises and gets out from the second hole to be directed in our drinking water bottle by a pipe and check valve cap provided with a carbonation stone sitting below the water surface, once the bubbling stops and the pressure gauge reading is appropriate (again, about 80PSI) the total pressure in the system should be the same therefore our water bottle is at the required pressure and full of Hydrogen, the gas flow valve can be closed and the pipe disconnected from the water bottle leaving the check valve cap in place, pressure is not lost in the water bottle which can be stored in the fridge.

 

Cold water holds gasses much better than hot water, cold water in the drinking bottle and hot water in the gas filtering water bottle should make the system more efficient.

 

Because of the pressure gauge we are able to see how much pressure (how much hydrogen) is left, with experience one should be able to judge how much reactants (aluminum/lime/water) are needed for properly hydrogenating one half liter bottle of water, than if the desire is to prepare multiple bottles to store in the fridge it would be easy to use the right amounts of reactants for the job, once one bottle is ready close the flow valve, disconnect the pipe from the check valve cap, put the bottle in the fridge, connect the pipe to another check valve cap provided bottle, open the flow valve and repeat as many times as whished or until no more enough pressure (hydrogen) is generated, add more reactants in order to continue if wished.

 

It is easier done than described with words but I hope my explanation is understandable.

 

There are two practical issues left: the making of the plexiglass container with a cap capable to hold pressure and the check valve cap for the drinking water bottle cheap and easy enough for everybody.

 

I have no issues to make both but I own a lathe and a workshop....what I like to come up with is something everybody can easily home made without any special tools or knowledge.

 

We are at a very good stage towards this goal (I am mumbling on some ideas).

 

[junkcrap50]

Did anyone figure out how to order from that link in Japan? The one with the kit that comes with the tubes.,

 

I haven't figured yet either how to order from that Japanese website...anyone else try yet?

 

Thx, LongeLurker, for the good research.

 

I have not figured out how to order from the Japanese website.

 

The shopping cart for English-translated version of the site does not work. You have to use the Japanese-language site. You can get all the way to the point where you enter your credit card, then you need to translate the Japanese. Online website translators don't seem to work for the credit card page. So you'd have to use a translator app with your iPhone or Android that uses the phone's camera to do real-time translation. There are apps that specialize in Asian languages that are probably better. Even still, when I very quickly tested it out, some lines didn't translate correctly. So, your results may vary. Emailing the company may also work.

 

Another option is buying through Amazon's Japanese site: www.amazon.co.jp and search for the product using terms like "7ppm", "7.0ppm", "Suisosui", "aquela", or copying Japanese symbols from the manufacturer's website for "hydrogen water". This option may be easier to enter credit card and shipping information. And online, website translators may work translating amazon's website. There are some knock-off versions too called Genesis H2 with the test tubes, which I can't link directly to due to Japanese symbols in the URL. Searching around using H2, 5ppm, other #ppm may work.

[junkcrap50]

Found the patent for 7ppm Suisosui's Aquela test tube and check valve cap. It is ridiculously simple. Just a vented test tube cap (specially designed I think to get the 3 spoke vent holes) with an umbrella valve in it. Could easily use any test tube cap and drill or punch a few holes for the valve and H2 gas. Figuring out a way to make some tiny holes for the H2 gas escaping would be the hardest part.

 

https://www.google.c...BOo4FBDoAQgpMAI

https://www.google.c...XHaDE0Q6AEIWzAJ

 

Edited by LongeLurker, 02 July 2016 - 09:08 PM.

[junkcrap50]

Aconita,

 

Are we talking about two different hydrogen reactions? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there may be some misunderstanding or miscommunication, perhaps on both ends. I think an important distinction needs to be made between slaked-Lime (calcium hydroxide, Ca(OH)₂) and Lye (sodium hydroxide, NaOH) or even quick-lime (calcium oxide, CaO). We may be talking about two different things. Lime-vs-Lye can get confusing, and I know I've confused myself several times. Plus, I admit I wasn’t specific, not using slaked or hydrated lime (also known as pickling lime, which is food safe and available in any grocery store).

 

The original research paper with Method II (the test tube method) uses Ca(OH)₂, which didn't seem to be that volatile of a reaction in the Aquela/Suisosui Youtube videos. Perhaps, I am wrong. Researching Ca(OH)₂, I found that it is slightly soluble compared to NaOH (soluble). I think this would limit the exothermic and caustic nature of using it, correct? (See solubility rules of hydroxide salts).

 

I do agree that using NaOH or CaO and water would be very volatile and very exothermic. It could easily melt the container it’s in. (Though, the amount of heat produced would be proportional to the amount of reactants used.) Also, the use of NaOH can produce caustic vapor from concentrated gaseous water vapor with NaOH dissolved in it. Using a water filter like in the DIY C02 Aquarium kit would then be necessary.

[aconita]

I refer to Ca(OH)₂ since it would be likely safer and yields a very high hydrogen production.

 

The reaction with aluminum seems to embrittle glass and to develop heat enough to discourage the use of generic plastic containers which could melt or start to release unwanted compounds, MIZ initially described the use of an acrilic plastic container for the reaction (which I guess would be plexiglass), they probably switched to the glass test tube because of economical reasons (those are ready available).

 

Notice that the Tyvek pouch is placed in some sort of holding device before being inserted in the test tube, probably in order to avoid touching the glass walls.

 

Lime is food safe but its very alkaline nature can be too much if in large enough amounts and keeping it from contaminating the drinking water is recommendable, plus the aluminum used in the reaction process is definitely better to not be ingested.

 

Since water filtrating the hydrogen gas would be extremely easy and inexpensive I would definitely include it in the system in order to avoid any possible contamination, just in case.

 

The check valve is not complicate at all but they come so cheap attempting to self make one does little sense, the only required work is to fit one on the cap which can be as easy as drilling in it an appropriate size hole (speaking about the MIZ system).

 

MIZ system is a good commercial scheme since the selling of the Tyvek pouches would guarantee a steady income but I think a system as the one I described in my previous post is a better choice for our home made intended use.

 

 

[Nate-2004]

I am just now reading up on all this, at first like many I thought it was a ridiculous scam. What lead me to this thread was that I saw a silly ad about it on FB and clicked it. I couldn't help but think of how scammy the site was, typical video without fast forward or rewind controls, long page with lots of sales talk, giant sized text and oversimplified language as well as the use of the word "fountain of youth". Then I got to the end and saw it was about hydrogen water and remembered seeing this thread. So I watched the DYI video which was entertaining but informative, started reading around. Maybe this is better than the C60OO considering all the positive results? 

 

How do we know it's the hydrogen that's helping and not the magnesium?

[aconita]

Some benefits are due to the magnesium and to the malic acid as well but there is quite a bit of research showing the hydrogen unique effects.

[Nate-2004]

Some benefits are due to the magnesium and to the malic acid as well but there is quite a bit of research showing the hydrogen unique effects.

 

I may try this, what the hell. It looks relatively cheap to do. The guy in the DIY video puts it in the fridge and says that you should drink it quickly or it loses its hydrogen? How quickly? Does this mean you gotta make a new batch every day or even more often?

 

Which of these do you guys use if you've tried this?

Edited by Nate-2004, 27 July 2016 - 10:46 PM.

[aconita]

Not the ferrocerium rods which are for fire starting, those pure magnesium are the appropriate ones:

 

https://www.amazon.c...=magnesium rods

 

The sooner you drink it the better since hydrogen doesn't like to stay in the water and will leave quite quickly, cold water holds it better (longer).

 

You have to make a new batch every time you want to drink it (but is really easy and fast), usual dosage is 0,5-1.5l/day, more might give you the runs because of the magnesium malate content.

[streamlover]

Nate-2004, I'm the guy from the video and I've relaxed my brewing parameters quite a bit since I made the video, mostly for convenience. I now generally load 2 or 3 bottles at night.  with 4 or 5 rods (depending on how much they've worn) and 1.5 grams of malic acid. I skip the freezer step (lost several bottles after forgetting them) and go right into the fridge. I take them out in the morning and have 1 early and maybe take one or two along in a pretty good pressurized sport bottle for drinking during the day. (Yes, ideally they should be drunk immediately after opening.) Sometimes I'll make an afternoon batch and drink another 1 or 2 by 6:00pm (3 hr brewing time) and then repeat more or less the next day. So I'm getting generally 3 or 4 of these per day...if I drink more, I'll likely start getting loose bowels. I measured the concentration the other day of a batch and it surprisingly came out 3.0ppm which is pretty good for this method. I say surprisingly because I thought the seals on my bottles were getting loose and needed some tweaking. Don't think any longer it's so critical to be that precise with the procedure. Anything you work out for convenience will get a pretty good concentration with the Mg+acid and at least 3 hours of brewing time and a decent seal on your container.

[Nate-2004]

Nate-2004, I'm the guy from the video and I've relaxed my brewing parameters quite a bit since I made the video, mostly for convenience. I now generally load 2 or 3 bottles at night.  with 4 or 5 rods (depending on how much they've worn) and 1.5 grams of malic acid. I skip the freezer step (lost several bottles after forgetting them) and go right into the fridge. I take them out in the morning and have 1 early and maybe take one or two along in a pretty good pressurized sport bottle for drinking during the day. (Yes, ideally they should be drunk immediately after opening.) Sometimes I'll make an afternoon batch and drink another 1 or 2 by 6:00pm (3 hr brewing time) and then repeat more or less the next day. So I'm getting generally 3 or 4 of these per day...if I drink more, I'll likely start getting loose bowels. I measured the concentration the other day of a batch and it surprisingly came out 3.0ppm which is pretty good for this method. I say surprisingly because I thought the seals on my bottles were getting loose and needed some tweaking. Don't think any longer it's so critical to be that precise with the procedure. Anything you work out for convenience will get a pretty good concentration with the Mg+acid and at least 3 hours of brewing time and a decent seal on your container.

 

Hey thanks for responding. I found the rods and some bottles on Amazon. I found the malic acid for cheap on purebulk.com.  I figure that's all I need now and just basically follow what you do in the video?  It's great you can do all this at night, refrigerate while asleep and have it in the morning. 8 hrs in the fridge isn't too long? How many oz or litres are you drinking and did you solve the bowel problem?  Where'd you get that test kit? Is it on Amazon? What specifically takes 3 hrs is that the time in the fridge?

 

I figure just put water in the kettle I use for coffee and tea, heat it till it whistles, then pour that into the bottle with the mg+acid, seal it, put it in the fridge. Does the freezer make it faster? I have the Echo I can just ask Alexa to set the timer for an hour. How many rods do you use per bottle? I saw you use 3 in the video I think.

 

Way too many questions I know haha. Hopefully these haven't already been asked, the thread is very long.

[Hip]

I am not sure how effective they are, but there are several cheap hydrogen rich water generators on sale on eBay, Amazon and Aliexpress.com:

 

EBay:

 

hydrogen water generator | eBay USA (from around $200 upwards)

 

hydrogen water generator | eBay UK  (cost around £30) 

 

 

 

Amazon:

 

Amazon.com: hydrogen rich water generators (from $54 upwards)

 

Amazon.co.uk: hydrogen water generator (from around £38 upwards)

 

 

 

Aliexpress.com (cost $51 and upwards)

 

400ML mini Water rich hydrogen generator-in Water Filters from Home Improvement

 

DHL Free Shipping 450ml Portable Hydrogen Rich Water Cup Ionizer Generator-in Water Filters from Home Improvement

 

water rich hydrogen generator machine intelligent health water machine Rich hydrogen water bottle water filter-in Water Filters from Home Improvement

[aconita]

Those machines typically give a quite poor hydrogen content which makes them kind of a waste of money and a source of disappointment.

 

[Hip]

Those machines typically give a quite poor hydrogen content which makes them kind of a waste of money and a source of disappointment.

 

Hi Aconita

 

Have you tried those hydrogen water generating machines yourself, or read reports from other people who have tried them? How is it possible to measure hydrogen levels in the water, by the way? Or are the hydrogen levels just gauged by the health and metabolic effects (eg: appetite increase) from drinking the hydrogen water? I presume these sort of machines work by electrolysis. 

 

 

EDIT: I just found the answer to my question on the excellent molecular hydrogen foundation website, where it says:

The hydrogen gas concentration from water ionizers various significantly from less than 0.05 ppm to over 2.5 ppm depending on source water, flow rate, design, and cleanliness of the electrodes. 

 

Typically, at normal flow and normal source water the concentration of H2 from an alkaline water ionizer is around 0.1 ppm to 0.7 ppm.

 

There are magnesium sticks that can be placed in water, magnesium tablets that can be consumed (which produces H2 in the stomach),  or other ones that can be added to water and will quickly produce a 2-4 ppm H2 concentration.

 

 

 

If you look at the images of this model on the UK eBay, which sells for £30, it seems to be USB powered (5 volts). I wonder whether these machines can be adapted to run on a higher voltage, say 24 volts, and whether that would produce a higher concentration of H2 in the water.

Edited by Hip, 28 July 2016 - 02:22 PM.

[aconita]

If you watch Steamlover video you'll see him performing a test in order to find out the exact amount of hydrogen content in his water, it is done with a reagent and the video shows exactly how it works.

 

I didn't try any of those machines myself and I rely on what the Molecular Hydrogen Foundation says about it as well as on other people experience.

 

Those machines works in two ways: electrolysis or chemical reaction.

 

The electrolysis process is not very efficient and tricky in quite a few aspects, electrodes might contaminate the water, they eventually worn out and are expensive to replace, the water quality might effect the outcome with undesirable compounds developing in the process, etc...

 

It is not just a matter of power but of practical issues leading to the conclusion that hydrogen is better generated by chemical reaction.

 

The chemical "machines" on the market usually involve magnesium in some form (likely powder or pellets) enclosed in sealed containers, most don't contemplate the use of an acid which leads to poor reaction (low hydrogen production) and the enclosed magnesium gets quickly turned in an inefficient reactant too since it is not possible to clean it properly.

 

Some devices like the ones previously discussed in this tread are valid but expensive, at the time being the home made system shown in the video is still the best and easiest/cheapest solution. 

 

The device you refer to is not going to work and it is likely dangerous, the electrodes are stainless steel which is inappropriate since leaching dangerous compounds in the process, appropriate electrodes are platinum or platinum coated and you do understand the price just for those is in a whole different range.

 

The devices produce oxyhydrogen, not hydrogen.

 

Oxyhydrogen is a mixture of oxygen and hydrogen which by the way is highly explosive.

 

The point of supplementing hydrogen is to neutralize the reactive oxygen, if you get oxyhydrogen you are likely not going to achieve any benefit since the whole point is missed.

 

You are getting oxyhydrogen from that device because anode and cathode are close by in the same container therefore the oxygen and the hydrogen produced on each of them inevitably mixes up in the water.

 

An electrolysis device for the scope needs two separate water tanks connected in an appropriate manner in order to keep oxygen rich water separate from hydrogen rich water, a feature this device doesn't posses.

 

 

[hotbit]

If you look at the images of this model on the UK eBay, which sells for £30, it seems to be USB powered (5 volts). I wonder whether these machines can be adapted to run on a higher voltage, say 24 volts, and whether that would produce a higher concentration of H2 in the water.

 

 

 

They do not provide any useful technical data. I expect this equipment is a crap. It should yield some traces of hydrogen, close to  placebo effect, though.

 

I guess electrodes are made from stainless steel - bad (bad material for electrodes - low efficiency and will produce chromates and iron ions).

 

Electrolysis at 5V/1A in 6 min using pure water as an electrolyte - a joke (very, very low efficiency).

 

PS. There was a discussion about electrolysis earlier in this thread. Worth to read. 

[Hip]

If you watch Steamlover video you'll see him performing a test in order to find out the exact amount of hydrogen content in his water, it is done with a reagent and the video shows exactly how it works.
 
...
 
Some devices like the ones previously discussed in this tread are valid but expensive, at the time being the home made system shown in the video is still the best and easiest/cheapest solution.

 
That's a very good video, thanks for pointing it out to me, @aconita.

 

 

I'm the guy in the video and have been drinking H2 water for about 4 months now. I was very impressed with all the studies and thought it was a no-brainer to at least try with no reported negatives and many potential benefits. I worked out this cheap method to produce because well, I'm cheap and didn't want to buy a machine or even pay for the pills for any length of time.

 

The most noticeable effect was inflammatory conditions that I hardly even considered as fixable and just a natural aspect of aging (stiff back, sore knees, arthritic hands, etc.) started disappearing and were pretty much all gone in a week or so. This was not even something I had been addressing in trying this and was a pleasant surprise.

 

What I had been hoping for was "better energy" and that did show up over time but not so much like wow, I've got all this extra energy and I have to go out jogging or go dancing but more like hey, I've been playing pickleball for 4 hours now and normally my butt would have been dragging an hour ago and I would probably be home now but I'm still going with almost as much energy as I started with. So I guess I would say I noticed more stamina rather than more immediate energy.

 

That's really interesting, @streamlover.

 

Just over a decade ago I caught a virus (most likely coxsackievirus B4) which triggered the disease chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS), which coxsackievirus B is apt to do. This virus seemed to produce a chronic inflammatory state (eg, chronic nasal and sinus inflammation, chronic sore throat) throughout my body, and also I developed several mental symptoms from the virus, such as anxiety and anhedonia, which I think are due to chronic brain inflammation caused by the virus (I had success in tackling my anxiety by taking supplements that reduce brain inflammation).

 

I am very interested to see if the apparent anti-inflammatory effects of hydrogen water might reduce my overall inflammatory state, which I think is caused by my ongoing low level coxsackievirus B infection. It's hard to tackle the virus directly, because there are few effective antivirals for coxsackievirus; but you can try to reduce the inflammation that results from the viral infection.

 

Patients with chronic fatigue syndrome are renowned for having low energy and compromised stamina, so that's interesting that you found hydrogen water boosted stamina. I look forward to seeing if I can replicate your stamina-boosting results.

 

Though I should point out that the large dose of malic acid / malate that you are consuming with each bottle could be what is boosting your energy and stamina, rather than H2. (I believe you use 1.5 or 2 grams of malic acid in each bottle, which is a high dose).

 

Malic acid is helpful those with chronic fatigue syndrome, especially when combined with magnesium (see this article). It boosts energy and reduces muscle pain. Malate is part of the mitochondrial Krebs cycle, although I am not sure if supplemental malic acid has any direct effect on the Krebs cycle. So given this, I am wondering if the malate content of your hydrogen water is the actual reason you get an energy boost from drinking it.

 

I notice an increase in energy and a reduction in fatigue when taking daily malic acid in doses of 300 mg or higher. If I take doses of over 1,000 mg of malic acid, I get a very strong energy boost, which is very useful for me, since of course low energy and poor stamina are one of cardinal symptoms of chronic fatigue syndrome.

 

The only reason that I do not take these higher doses of malic acid is that I get a major side effect from it, which is greatly increased aggression and irritability, which I really do not like. I am not sure why malate causes these side effects in me, but it is very unfortunate, because the energy boosting effects of malic acid would be much welcomed.

 

 

 

This brings me on to a question I would like to ask you: because of the aggression / irritability side effects I get from malate supplementation, I don't think it will be possible for me to use the 1.5 or 2 grams of malic acid per bottle that you use to react with the magnesium rods.

 

So I would like to know, are there any other acids that you can recommend instead, which will also efficiently react with magnesium and produce H2? You said your post here that citric acid will react with magnesium to form hydrogen gas. Citric acid powder is pretty cheap and easy to obtain. And acetic acid in the form of vinegar you said also works.  

 

 

 

By the way, you probably know that loose bowels / diarrhea are a result of high dose oral magnesium supplementation. When I take magnesium supplements, anything over around 500 mg of elemental magnesium daily triggers loose bowels / diarrhea.

 

You could try OTC anti-diarrheal drugs like loperamide 2 mg to counter the diarrhea-inducing effects of oral magnesium. Or anything known to produce constipation (which is the opposite end of the spectrum to loose bowels / diarrhea) might help counter the diarrhea-inducing effects of magnesium.

 

 

 

If you are taking lots of magnesium, it is an idea to take a calcium supplement, because magnesium and calcium need to be taken in balanced proportions. I once went on a very high dose transdermal magnesium protocol, perhaps taking 3 or 4 grams of magnesium daily for several weeks; and I forgot about the need for balanced calcium supplementation. A bizarre thing then happened: I suddenly developed an absolute adoration for drinking milk. I had never been particularly fond of drinking milk, it's OK, but normally for me the taste is nothing special. But all of a sudden, my taste buds just went totally wild for milk. Milk just suddenly tasted absolutely lovely to me!

 

Eventually, I figured out that my body was just desperate for the calcium in milk, because with all that magnesium I was administering, my minerals were out of balance. And so it clearly seems that the body is intelligent enough to make a person suddenly love the foods or drinks that contain the minerals they need. Calcium receptors on the tongue were discovered not so long ago, and I imagine that these calcium receptors detected the calcium in the milk, and then my brain picked up on this, and made me start really enjoying the flavor of milk. Thus is seems the brain can control whether you like or dislike the taste of any food or drink, according to your current nutritional needs.

 

Once I stopped the high dose magnesium, my absolute love of the taste of milk soon disappeared. 

 

 

If anyone else would like to repeat my milk experience as an experiment, and see how the brain can modulate your taste bud sensations such that you can start to adore a food or drink which contains a mineral that you currently need, just try taking high doses of transdermal magnesium for a few weeks, without taking any supplemental calcium. I think very quickly, you too will start to adore the taste of milk. It will suddenly taste divine to you, like the food of the gods. I am not sure if anyone has ever researched this modulation of your sense of taste that the brain apparently orchestrates in order to get you to consume the foods or drinks that contain the minerals your body needs. I was amazed by this experience, and amazed my body's own built-in intelligence. 

 

For those interested, to take high dose transdermal magnesium, just make up a saturated solution of Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) in water, and splash or rub this water on your skin, from head to toe. Do not wipe off, but let the water dry on its own over the next few minutes, which will then deposit the magnesium sulfate on your skin (where it will slowly absorb over the next few hours). After letting it dry for a few minutes, you can put your clothes on. A good time to do this is just after your shower or bath (towel dry first, and then apply the magnesium sulfate to your skin).

 

Apply transdermal magnesium two or three times daily. You cannot take take high doses of magnesium orally, because it will trigger diarrhea and this will flush the magnesium out of your bowels before it can be absorbed. But transdermally you can absorb high doses. 

 

 

 

Edited by Hip, 29 July 2016 - 02:33 AM.

[Hip]

Here is an idea for another way of generating H2 gas and hydrogen water:

 

Magnesium actually burns underwater, by stealing oxygen from H2O, and thereby liberating H2 gas. The reaction of magnesium with water is:

 

Mg + H₂0 —> MgO + H₂

 

You can see a demonstration in this video of ignited magnesium ribbon continuing to burn (in fact burning more brightly and strongly) when placed underwater. 

 

 

So I wonder if @streamlover's technique of making hydrogen water in a beer bottle might be adapted, such that rather than putting malic acid into the bottle and dropping in some magnesium, you instead just put pure water into the bottle, and drop in a piece of burning magnesium, quickly closing the bottle lid to create the requisite pressure.