623 replies to this topic

[Nate-2004]

So the malic acid is a kind of catalyst for this Mg + H2O - MgO + H2 reaction?

 

I noticed on the Wikipedia page for it there's a pathway diagram showing its role in the same interactive pathways involving NAD / NADH. 

Edited by Nate-2004, 29 July 2016 - 04:06 AM.

[Hip]

So the malic acid is a kind of catalyst for this Mg + H2O - MgO + H2 reaction?

 

No, the reaction of magnesium with malic acid is completely separate to any reaction with water. 

[Nate-2004]

 

So the malic acid is a kind of catalyst for this Mg + H2O - MgO + H2 reaction?

 

No, the reaction of magnesium with malic acid is completely separate to any reaction with water. 

 

 

Wait so what's the malic acid for then?

[Hip]

Wait so what's the malic acid for then?

 

Malic acid (C₄H₆O₅) reacts with magnesium to produce hydrogen gas (H₂). If you look at this earlier post, you see that @streamlover has explained the details of the reaction: magnesium + malic acid —> hydrogen gas + magnesium malate:

 

Mg + C₄H₆O₅ —> H₂ + MgC₄H₄O₅

 

Because magnesium also reacts with water (H₂0), when you add magnesium to a solution of malic acid in water, you also get to a lesser degree the reaction: magnesium + water —> hydrogen gas + magnesium hydroxide:

 

Mg + H₂O —> H₂ + Mg(OH)₂water

 

So there are two separate reactions going on when you drop magnesium into an aqueous solution of malic acid: one reaction with the malic acid, and another simultaneous reaction with the water.

 

However, because at room temperatures the reaction of magnesium with water is slow, and because at room temperatures the reaction of magnesium with malic acid is more vigorous, most of the hydrogen gas produced will come from the reaction with malic acid.

 

 

 

You can see this for yourself: if you drop a piece magnesium ribbon into boiling water from the kettle, you will see tiny little bubbles of H2 gas very slowly forming on the surface of the magnesium ribbon. But the reaction of magnesium with water at relatively low temperatures like 100ºC is very slow, so you barely see any bubbles at all.

 

If you now drop in some malic acid or citric acid powder into that hot water, instantly you get loads more bubbles of H2 gas forming on the magnesium, because the reaction of magnesium with these acids is a lot more vigorous.

 

 

 

However, that's the case at relatively low temperatures of100ºC. But if you dropped some burning magnesium ribbon into pure water (with no acid in the water), because magnesium ribbon burns at a very high temperature of 3100°C, now you get a very vigorous reaction between the magnesium and the pure water, due to the high temperature. If you do this experiment, you will see that magnesium ribbon burns faster and more vigorously underwater than it does in air. 

You can see how a pile of burning magnesium almost explosively reacts with water in this video.

 

 

 

So my idea is that you could make hydrogen water by dropping into a beer bottle filled with pure water some burning magnesium ribbon, very quickly closing the bottle lid, so that you create pressure. You would have to be quick, because magnesium ribbon burns very fast in water. Hopefully the beer bottle will not explode!

 

 

Edited by Hip, 29 July 2016 - 02:52 PM.

[Nate-2004]

Remember I used 6 rods for this test and brewed for 8 hours instead of the normal 4 rods for 3 hours, to make sure the test would find any heavy metals if present. 

 

I don't understand what he means by "brewed for 8 hours". Does he mean keeping it in the fridge for 8 hours?

 

Let me know what happens as far as H2 concentration after you try that burning magnesium experiment. That sounds not only fun but far quicker and easier in some ways.

Edited by Nate-2004, 29 July 2016 - 03:05 PM.

[Nate-2004]

I went looking for H2 Blue on the web, only one place sells them and charges a pretty outrageous 12 dollars extra for shipping. I may just take your word for it for now. 

 

I finished off my 3rd bottle today, seems like a pretty easy and quick process.

 

Is it really necessary to clean the rods every time in vinegar? That can add to the cost and time spent.

 

Getting the rods out of the bottle also takes some time.

[pspearsjr]

Thank you Streamlover for your research and efforts on this subject.  

 

I purchased these bottles from Amazon and the Mg rods from China.  I can only get 2 rods into the bottles.  I did not purchase the reagent so I was wondering if anyone had a rough guesstimate on how much hydrogen I may be getting with 2 rods and 1.5g of malic acid for a 3 hour brew.

 

I thought it was amazing how I filled the bottles up to the top and within 20 mins the water was an inch or so lower in the bottle. 

Edited by pspearsjr, 02 August 2016 - 08:27 PM.

[Nate-2004]

You could have gotten the rods from the U.S. a lot quicker over Amazon, these bottles hold 4, and the malic acid from purebulk.com. 

 

 

[pspearsjr]

I think issue is I went with the 5" rods and they go up in the neck of the bottle further.  It's actually difficult to even get 2 new rods in the bottle.  I know as they get smaller I should be able to insert a 3rd or possibly cut them in half.

Edited by pspearsjr, 02 August 2016 - 10:01 PM.

[aconita]

It is necessary to clean the rods in vinegar each time after use because otherwise the patina forming on the rods will hinder the reaction next time you use them.

 

It adds very little to the cost since you only need the cheapest vinegar available which should be pretty dam cheap and you can recycle it for quite a while.

 

I have got a cylindrical plastic container that fits 4 rods quite right, I keep it full of vinegar, sink the rods for a few seconds in it, place a lid on top and store as it is, I can reuse it many times before gradually the reaction gets weaker and need to add some more vinegar or change it.

 

Rods can be a bit annoying to get out the bottle but I found a bamboo stick for skewers is just the perfect tool to adjust the rods in the right position to get out, it gets really fast and easy once you master the trick.

 

How many rods are in the bottle determine the hydrogen production achieved because of the total rod surface area exposed to the water/malic acid, more rods = more surface exposed but longer rods too = more surface exposed....

 

Anyway there is nothing wrong in cutting in half the rods in order to increase the exposed surface and to be able to fit more rods in the bottle.

 

Rods will get smaller with use...but it will take a long time before you'll be able to even notice it.

 

 

[Nate-2004]

Second full day, not sure I'm noticing too much at this point. Yesterday I think I drank a full 1.5 liters or 48 oz roughly. Was hoping my lower back pain would be gone haha. Hey guys help me understand, the magnesium in the rods is being converted to magnesium hydroxide? Mg(OH)2? There's a hydrogen in there so that's confusing, I thought that went off to H2. Magnesium Hydroxide is milk of magnesia according to Wikipedia and can affect bowels and the absorption of folic acid and iron so that's disconcerting. How does drinking HW produced this way differ from getting chelated magnesium from a pill?

Edited by Nate-2004, 03 August 2016 - 03:17 PM.

[Nate-2004]

Another question going back to the original topic of the thread, what's everyone's experience and opinion with regards to the original question as to whether HW is a replacement for MK677. I read a little about MK677 and not sure if IGF-1 boosting is good or bad but it sounds interesting. I read through and saw that H2 in the intestine is shown to increase Ghrelin which is associated with producing hunger. That's a problem since I have trouble maintaining a healthy weight and if my appetite goes up, eep.

Edited by Nate-2004, 03 August 2016 - 09:58 PM.

[aconita]

You are getting magnesium malate from the reaction, magnesium hydroxide should be really in tiny amount eventually.

 

Magnesium might interact with other micronutrients absorption as most of them might do as well, it is always a matter of balance, magnesium likely being the one of less concern since the tolerable amount is self regulating (the runs).

 

MK677 is a ghrelin analogue, from that the assumption that hydrogen water might be an alternative to MK677.

 

There is a difference, even if MK677 isn't likely to be appropriate to rise HGH above physiological levels (which wouldn't be a smart choice anyway) one can always easily play with the dosage while with hydrogen water it gets a bit more tricky since the amount of water one is able to drink daily is limited.

 

The magnesium malate content sets another limit quite fast therefore unless we find a way to achieve really high hydrogen concentrations the HGH boosting achievable has limits, it would be interesting to measure to which extent.

 

It has also to be seen to which extent hydrogen is able to stimulate ghrelin secretion, it might not be necessarily dose depend.

 

That's why the question mark in the title of the tread.

 

It is unlikely that the IGF-1 boosting capability of hydrogen water made as we are doing can be of any concern of being detrimental to health. 

 

The point is that HGH and consequently IGF-1 production declines as we age, since IGF-1 is one of the main actors in the repair process the aim is to antagonize the decline in order to achieve better health, not to increase values above physiological levels which with hormones is never a good idea. 

 

 

[streamlover]

Hi All, Haven't posted for a while and was wondering how everyone's doing with the protocol? I've been posting some under the youtube video and got a nice tip the other day. A guy said he was getting nice "pops" using only 1 gm of malic acid with 5 rods and I tried it overnight and got 3.0ppms concentration and the brew wasn't quite so metallic tasting. Also, I've had 4 so far today and my stomach is fine so I'm going to try 2 more before bed and see if this has alleviated the diarrhea issues somewhat. My current recipe: 4-5 Mg rods, depending on how worn they seem, 1 gm malic acid, boiling water, and straight into the fridge for 3-8+ hours. (Seems it may not be so critical to open at the 3 hour mark and can just open when convenient and still have a good brew.) I may even try decreasing the malic acid even more until it starts diminishing the concentrations obtained. Also, might try more rods.

 

I see California Hydrogen Water Co. is now selling something (Suisol Stick) that looks like what we were trying to come up with a few months ago. I emailed their marketing to get more details and see what concentration they claim it produces. That patented pouch they have is really all I'm interested in and if there's no way to open and reseal it, I probably won't be interested but it's nice to see more products coming out to make this easier and hopefully cheaper than the machines or pills.

[Nate-2004]

Hi All, Haven't posted for a while and was wondering how everyone's doing with the protocol? I've been posting some under the youtube video and got a nice tip the other day. A guy said he was getting nice "pops" using only 1 gm of malic acid with 5 rods and I tried it overnight and got 3.0ppms concentration and the brew wasn't quite so metallic tasting. Also, I've had 4 so far today and my stomach is fine so I'm going to try 2 more before bed and see if this has alleviated the diarrhea issues somewhat. My current recipe: 4-5 Mg rods, depending on how worn they seem, 1 gm malic acid, boiling water, and straight into the fridge for 3-8+ hours. (Seems it may not be so critical to open at the 3 hour mark and can just open when convenient and still have a good brew.) I may even try decreasing the malic acid even more until it starts diminishing the concentrations obtained. Also, might try more rods.

 

I see California Hydrogen Water Co. is now selling something (Suisol Stick) that looks like what we were trying to come up with a few months ago. I emailed their marketing to get more details and see what concentration they claim it produces. That patented pouch they have is really all I'm interested in and if there's no way to open and reseal it, I probably won't be interested but it's nice to see more products coming out to make this easier and hopefully cheaper than the machines or pills.

 

That is good to know as my first pouch of malic acid is running low. 

 

So far I've been drinking roughly 1.5 L per day of the stuff, that's about 4 of the 16 oz bottles (keeping in mind that those can maybe only hold 12 oz with the rods in there).

 

I've been using 5 rods with 2g malic acid so far, I'll cut back to just 1g to save money perhaps. I don't mind the taste though and malic acid isn't exactly bad for you.

 

What I've noticed is that I get to sleep faster and sleep more deeply. I don't know about the sleep quality, that's hard to measure without an eeg. 

 

I also noticed that my Essential Tremor which is getting more severe with time is not nearly as bad as it has been this year just these last two weeks. I never really get my hopes up about this because that sometimes happens when I think I'm onto something, then turns out I was wrong. However it's promising.

 

The lower back pain which I was hoping would go away completely has dissipated to some degree. At least I don't feel it all day and not nearly as bad in the mornings after I get out of bed, but it's still there... perhaps only as bad as it was 3 years ago. Maybe it takes more time, maybe I should be drinking more, I dunno. Hard to risk that since I don't want to get TOO much magnesium. 

 

I'd like to see more study on this stuff, looks like it's slow coming and all the studies listed on the Molecular Hydrogen Foundation site aren't exactly groundbreaking or as numerous, certainly not enough human testing. This is so cheap to do though I figure what the hell. At least I'm getting more magnesium and drinking plenty of water worst case.

Edited by Nate-2004, 11 August 2016 - 03:42 AM.

[Nate-2004]

I ran out of malic acid yesterday and so I can't make anymore till I get more. After missing just two bottles I'm noticing my shaking (essential tremor) is much worse today than it has been. This is somewhat upsetting since while it's apparently the first thing that's helped quell the tremors, it's also just a treatment, not a cure. Why are there only treatments and never cures? Only temporary changes and then your body reverts back. Nothing is regrowing, no new neurons or purkinje cells or removal of whatever extracellular junk might be causing the degeneration. I guess we have to wait till stem cells but at least I think I've found something that works and isn't propanolol with all its terrible side effects. 

 

I don't know what it is in particular that's helping though. Is it the hydrogen, is it the magnesium or is it the malic acid?

 

One method would be through electrolysis or obtaining the gas form from somewhere, but that gets expensive, increasingly difficult and I have no connections for the latter.

[streamlover]

Nate-2004, Any weak acid will work...I just use malic because it seemed to give the highest concentrations. You can add a tbsp of vinegar or lemon juice or citric acid if you have any around. Even ascorbic acid should work though I've never tried it.

 

I also lament that some of the benefits of this protocol dissipate if I stop for a day or 2. I'm trusting many of the studies that say there is permanent healing going on also. Hopefully a technology that's easier to use than the rods/acid/3 hour business will appear that makes it much easier to drink lots of this stuff without so much work.

[aconita]

Who knows, maybe if you keep taking it for longer it will start to fix things, after all you are using it for just a brief period of time.

 

With DMSO, for example, certain conditions only get temporary relief but if one keep using it after a while the condition gets actually fixed, since both share at least the strong antioxidant propriety maybe not all hopes are lost.

 

Consider the IGF-1 boost, it is likely mild but with time it might help fix things up too.

[Nate-2004]

Thanks guys. I will try with lemon juice.

 

Can you guys tell me what it is about the vinegar that removes the oxidation or corrosion on the Mg rods after use?

[aconita]

The rods gets an oxidation patina which if not removed by vinegar will interfere with the reaction in the next use, this will make the reaction much less efficient.

 

 

[Nate-2004]

The rods gets an oxidation patina which if not removed by vinegar will interfere with the reaction in the next use, this will make the reaction much less efficient.

 

Oh I understand that part what I'm curious about is *how* the vinegar removes oxidation. Why vinegar specifically? Chemically speaking.

[aconita]

Any acid will do but vinegar is cheap, ready to use and non toxic.

[Nate-2004]

Tried the lemon juice from "ReaLemon" brand that I have in the fridge. I am not entirely positive it did much of anything compared to the malic acid. Not much of a pop when I opened it at least. Wish the h2blue didn't overcharge for their shipping I could test it.

[Nate-2004]

Read more in this thread and so I have more questions: 

 

1. Streamlover, did you get the concentrations of 7ppm you were trying to achieve with the new method? Is it worth doing? If so will you make another video?

2. Does Aluminum, Lye and water create pure H2 or are there other gasses? I'm assuming it's pure since the formula is:

 

2Al + 2NaOH + 6H2O => 2NaAl(OH)4 + 3H2

 

The H2 comes out as gas leaving sodium aluminate in the bottle?

 

 

Edited by Nate-2004, 14 August 2016 - 05:19 PM.

[streamlover]

Nate-2004,

The Real Lemon may not be acidic enough...I'd go with aconita's suggestion and try some vinegar.

 

I never had much success with trying to find or make a container that could separate the H2 reactants from the drinking water. Mainly just dropped the project and continue to search for some product out there that could do it. Aquela is a Japanese product that seems to use the same technology from that MIZ paper that describes the container and method. They advertise 5 to 7.0ppm concentrations but I haven't been able to order one of their kits to take a look at the container. I had a Japanese friend take a look at the website and he said you can't order it from outside Japan. I contacted a guy at California Hydrogen Water Co. and he seemed interested in the product and is trying to contact MIZ and see if he can sell it here. I thought maybe that Suisol stick they sell could be interesting because they say it has a patented "protective film" around the magnesium but I think it's just the pouch you drop in the container and not the container itself so not that interesting, imo. Yeah, I'm guessing the Aquela product uses the Aluminum+Lime mix described in the paper and would leave the by-products inside the reacting container but not in your drinking water. If I get a hold of that kit, I plan to try using the container with my own reactants and see it one can bypass buying the refills or maybe even duplicate the container if one could find the membrane they use, since I would want to have 3 or 4 around to support my habit.

[drlarryvon]

i would like to know if anyone has tried  this simple experiment to determine if the h2 water really has true orp effectiveness.

I saw that the Japanese in selling one of their generators was doing this experiment.

2 glasses of water, one with regular tap, and one with h2 water.

both glasses of an identical nail immersed.'

Note how long it takes for each of the nails to rust. The h2 water will most likely according to their claims prevent the nail from rusting.

Anyone thoughts?

[aconita]

Unless the nail rust very fast the hydrogen in the water would be long gone before any comparison could be possible.

 

Anyway the method will tell if there is some hydrogen in the water at best, nothing about how much which is our main concern.

 

Does Aluminum, Lye and water create pure H2 or are there other gasses?

 

 

No, in order to get pure hydrogen a filter of some sort is needed.

 

When hydrogen is produced it bubbles out from the solution carrying moisture which is contaminated with the solution, this is true both with chemical reactions and with electrolysis.

 

The hydrogen gas therefore is not pure, it is not that there are other gasses mixed with it  but moisture molecules carrying contaminants. that is why usually the hydrogen gas is driven to a separate container full of water where it bubbles leaving behind the contaminated moisture before getting used or stored (a water filter).

 

I am working at another project right now (actually more than one, as usual) and since overall the mag/malic acid method works for me quite pleasantly I left alone as an unfinished project the lye/aluminum generator.

 

It doesn't mean I am not going to work on it, actually I am about a quite smart configuration which will automatically regulate the hydrogen production, it means it would be possible to refill the machine only once in while and quite pure hydrogen will be produced at will anytime and at the desired pressure.

 

[Nate-2004]

I can't wait to hear about this machine. I suppose I'll hold off on buying any lye. Does your purifier have something to do with filters or removing moisture in some way?

[aconita]

Yes, it's easy, just bubble the hydrogen in a container full of water before using it for whatever you wish, likely making hydrogen water in our case.

 

The idea is to have separate chambers, one for the reaction, one for the filtering an finally one for the hydrogen enrichment of water.

 

[Nate-2004]

Yes, it's easy, just bubble the hydrogen in a container full of water before using it for whatever you wish, likely making hydrogen water in our case.

 

The idea is to have separate chambers, one for the reaction, one for the filtering an finally one for the hydrogen enrichment of water.

 

So pass it through water somehow? Trying to imagine how I'd do that. Instead of sticking a balloon on the end I suppose I could put a tube on the end of the bottle that runs to a chamber of water, then put the balloon on the other end. Trying to make the gas form to breathe as well.