623 replies to this topic

[Hip]

@Hip, in posts 473, and 476 you use 0.08ppm as the concentration at which ghrelin can be released. Is it 0.8ppm as in post 539 or is 0.08 the correct value? Also I'm losing my eyesight    hunting for the reference for the ghrelin release value, Would you provide a link to it?

 

Thanks for pointing that out @Advocatus Diaboli; you're quite right, it should be 0.08 ppm as the lowest concentration known to release ghrelin, not 0.8 ppm as I stated above. 

 

The study in question is this one, and the study is discussed in this earlier post.

 

The study finds that H2 concentrations in the range from 0.04 mM to 0.8 mM (mM is millimoles per liter) all release the same amount of ghrelin. This corresponds to H2 concentrations of 0.08 ppm to 1.6 ppm (because to convert moles of a chemical to grams, you multiply by the molecular weight, which in the case of H2 is a molecular weight of 2, so 0.04 mM converts to 0.08 mg per liter = 0.08 ppm). 

[Advocatus Diaboli]

@Hip, thanks!

[Adam1]

I would like to share some random thoughts I have had while reading through this thread. I am impressed by the work developing the tec, and maybe we could further revise it. Most of my thinking out loud will be on improving safety.

 

As noted previously on the thread, the process can potentially result in catastrophic explosions. Thankfully, nothing like this happened to any of the home tec experimenters, but I have to say I was concerned to hear sometimes the plastic bottles looked like they were about to burst.

 

Looking at best practice recommendations for pressurized vessels, the vessels should be individually pressure tested using water and no hydrogen before being used. Hydrostatic pressure testing is discussed, e.g. here .

 

For those who want to monitor closely (ahem… but at a distance) to minimize risk, the same instrumentation could check pressures during any hydrogen generation, to ensure the pressure doesn’t exceed maybe half what you pressure tested (e.g. if the vessel survived 70 psi, keep pressure under 35 psi.) If you want to pressure test even higher psi’s, it becomes more expensive e.g. long braided hoses that have been pressure tested.

 

I realize not everybody is concerned about endocrine disruptors from plastics undergoing physical and chemical stress, but I am. Stainless steel Cornelius kegs therefore crossed my mind as candidates for vessels. They have a wide mouth for easy cleaning and are designed with safety valves to release pressure at 130 psi. However, I am not sure sudden release of hydrogen at that pressure is much safer than an explosion, due to ignition potential. Probably, a lower psi pressure relief valve is advisable, with venting outdoors. Also, compared to a bottle, a keg is a bigger bomb, and the total reactants you put in it would need to be carefully limited.

 

Cleaning/sterilization is important, and kegs with relatively seamless machine welds are better than manual welds, as they provide less cover for microbes.

 

With regards to purity of the reactants, I realize the conversation shifted to relying on the test-tube-in-a bottle model. Nevertheless, some comments on the thread referred to off-tastes/smells, so I am not sure this filtering provides sufficient protection if the reactants include contaminants. Personally, I would opt for more expensive reactants from a place like Sigma Aldrich, ideally with filtering on top of that.

 

I don’t know if anyone tried a GL45 vented cap with a 0.2 µm PTFE membrane such as this one to isolate solids and liquids in the “test tube.”

 

With regards to H2-containing air (HCA) vs. oral intake of H2-rich water (HRW), it makes sense to me that one study concludes “the combination of both HRW and HCA had the most potent effects on signaling pathways and gene expression in systemic organs.” To me it’s just a question of what is the optimal ratio of gas inhalation to drinking hydrogen water. Since purity and production safety with hydrogen water is expensive, and the minimum dose for ghrelin effect is very low, I would place the emphasis on inhalation, with low-concentration hydrogen water as an adjunct. Mechanical mixture of hydrogen gas and water, as discussed previously on the thread would provide a low-concentration drink that would keep costs down and add unique benefits.

 

Putting controversies aside, I appreciate the hydrogen inhalation tecs provided by my namesake adamh, and would just like to run by people a slightly different collection method: place the magnesium and citric acid solution in a capped glass jar that has an air lock to filter out aerosol droplets. For example, http://www.pickl-it....roducts/singles (just make sure the jar is tall enough for your rods). Clamp an aluminum balloon on the airlock. For best safety, do this outdoors in a wide open yard, and not under a roof overhang. That’s it.

 

I know some might think I am too concerned about contamination and production safety issues, but I am still thinking there must be things I overlooked, and that any hydrogen production method needs to be carefully examined.

[Adam1]

And needless to say, be sure to never overfill the balloon!

[H2enthusiast]

While technically correct in a singular view, this is functionally inaccurate. These tablets work by creating a careful sustained burst of nano bubbles of H2. It immediately saturates to 1.4-2ppm(temperature depending) and then increases to 4~ ppm via relatively stable clouds of nano H2 bubbles which will stay in suspension and not dissipate until coalescing beyond roughly 5 microns in diameter. The full saturation and excess gas create internal pressure and an effect called Le Chateliers pricniple comes into play(sealing at this moment/the climax of the cloud density will read higher psi then immediately sealing a bottle with a tablet)

 

The reaction slows to a stop due to internal pressure with now nano level particles of Mg transiently trapped in suspension. This acts as a built in 'reserve tank' and as each bubble of H2 dissipates or is absorbed into your body, an equal amount of Mg reacts to take its place until all is created.The Mg will not react with the reagent and even if they did it would be stoichiometrically equivalent to the H2 it generates. While not (ppm or 9mg/l in 500ml, it is an almost instantaneous dosage of 4.5mg of H2 in 500ml(or 9ppm equivalency). Since the general populace may lack the ability to comprehend this, I believe things are kept simple. The actual manufacturer has simplified explanations now on their site for some time, and supplies detailed analysis in papers to distributors, however I am aware it is an issue in creating proper understanding, especially in foreign languages.

As for the low levels to secrete ghrelin, this is only a very small function of H2. H2 has shown to be incredibly powerful in regulating homeostatic function in numerous systems(redox or promoting a homeostatic balance of oxidative stress/anti oxidant system via the Nrf2 pathway, up and down regulation of inflammatory cytokines, etc). For the gene signalling the research is trending to demonstrate high dosage intermittent use to be vastly superior to low concentration continuous(which makes sense in the context of gene signalling)

 

I found a video where someone produces over 9 ppm in less than 2 minutes with one tablet and without any extra pressure from a closed bottle.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=a4GYubGtLSs

 

The only problem with that is it contradicts the laws of physics. In an open container at normal atmospheric pressure, the maximum concentration that you can achieve is 1.57 ppm. This comes from Henry’s Law.

 

 

I suspect that what is happening is that micro-particles of the reactants are floating off into the water and are continuing to react (those micro-particles I think form the milky cloud you see in the water). Then when you use the blue drops (H2Blue drops) to measure the ppm concentration, it measures more hydrogen that there actually is dissolved in the water, because the micro-particles of reactants are continuing to make hydrogen, even while you measure it. So you get a false reading. 

 

That's not to say that this product will not work; it will probably quite effective in stimulating ghrelin release in the stomach. But the claims that it produces 9 ppm in an open container I think are false. 

 

 

[H2enthusiast]

The vendor who relayed this is incorrect, possibly either not understanding or attempting to simplify. 13.34ppm in 500ml is the max that can be created. By using polysaccharides, most commonly lemon juice which contains pectin, incredibly high levels of H2 can be retained near the surface. For instance, near the top may read 20ppm, while the bottom 2ppm. This is where confusion is, as it is incredibly difficult to measure the variable and inconsistent saturation levels of H2 when using certain fibers and draw an accurate average of the solution. Current methods for measurement are insufficient in this regard. If I had to make an informed estimate based on all data, I would say it is around 6-7ppm in 500ml when using 30ml of lemon juice in solution. This is by removing water samples from various depths and graphing results. 

 

After many different setups using a metal bottle, and testing using H2 Blue, a scientist I correspond with did not exceeded 3 to 4 ppm concentration. The plastic bottle consistently achieves at least 5 ppm.

 

The 13 ppm mentioned in ads is misleading. One of the vendors told me it is due to measuring only the very top of the water where transient hydrogen is concentrated.

 

Once you get a routine it is very easy and cheap to make hydrogen water yourself. I drink it every single day, because when I skipped a day or two I definitely felt the difference. I frequently update my blog detailing my experiences: http://pieeconomics....log-page_2.html

 

[William Sterog]

If you are using a 1.5 liter plastic soda bottle to make your hydrogen rich water as I do

Is it wise to put that kind of pressure and acidity inside a plastic bottle? Aren't you afraid of drinking microplastics, Bisfenol A, xenoestrogens and all kind of crap that come from plastics?

Edited by William Sterog, 18 January 2018 - 10:00 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

 

 

Putting controversies aside, I appreciate the hydrogen inhalation tecs provided by my namesake adamh, and would just like to run by people a slightly different collection method: place the magnesium and citric acid solution in a capped glass jar that has an air lock to filter out aerosol droplets. For example, http://www.pickl-it....roducts/singles (just make sure the jar is tall enough for your rods). Clamp an aluminum balloon on the airlock. For best safety, do this outdoors in a wide open yard, and not under a roof overhang. That’s it.

 

 

 

I don't know what has been discussed before, but there's no need to make it complicated or expensive. Use a 4oz Boston round bottle, fill it 10-20% full of magnesium shot, and top that with a spoonful of malic or citric acid in water, enough to fill the bottle to about 1/3 full, then snap a party balloon over the top. Allow the balloon to fill to six inches or more and you can intermittently rebreathe the hydrogen from it for ten minutes.

 

Note: the bottle will get rather hot after a few minutes, so best to set it in a larger glass partially full of water to keep it cooler. Afterwards, the pellets can be washed off and reused.

[Hip]

I don't know what has been discussed before, but there's no need to make it complicated or expensive.

 

Perhaps you might like to read the earlier discussion about one of the main benefits of hydrogen rich water coming from the ghrelin hormone released when the water enters the stomach. Hydrogen gas breathed through the lungs will likely not do that.

Edited by Hip, 20 January 2018 - 10:08 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

 

I don't know what has been discussed before, but there's no need to make it complicated or expensive.

 

Perhaps you might like read the earlier discussion about one of the main benefits of hydrogen rich water coming from the ghrelin hormone released when the water enters the stomach. Hydrogen gas breathed through the lungs will likely not do that.

 

 

If one then wanted to make HW from the balloon of H, I'd suggest boiling water to degas it, filling a mason jar and capping, allowing it to cool, then forcing your (small) hydrogen balloon into it and recapping. Store it in the refrigerator overnight (upside down to minimize H diffusion at the seal). Hydrogen will diffuse through the balloon rubber and saturate the water. Doing it this way, you'd want generate the balloon of hydrogen with a minimum of air. You could do that by topping off the mag bottle with malic acid water before snapping on the balloon to exclude as much air as possible.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 20 January 2018 - 10:26 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

As for getting hydrogen into the stomach, why not swallow the gas? Seems you'd get far more into the stomach that way. You might even swallow it with your feet over your head to keep it there longer.

 

The max solubility of H2 in 100 ml water at STP is .00016 grams, whereas 100 ml of H2 gas contains .0089 grams--more than 50 times as much.

[Hip]

As for getting hydrogen into the stomach, why not swallow the gas? Seems you'd get far more into the stomach that way. You might even swallow it with your feet over your head to keep it there longer.

 

Whereas it is easy to swallow liquids and foods, I am not sure how one would go about swallowing gas into the stomach, especially a gas like hydrogen which floats upwards in air.

 

Also, there is no evidence that hydrogen gas in the stomach would have this ghrelin-releasing effect. The study was conducted on hydrogen rich water, not on hydrogen gas.

[Turnbuckle]

Also, there is no evidence that hydrogen gas in the stomach would have this ghrelin-releasing effect. The study was conducted on hydrogen rich water, not on hydrogen gas.

 

 

 

 

If you are referring to the McCarty paper in the OP, the researcher only noted that the oral route was "no less impressive" than the inhalation route, and thus put forward a ghrelin hypothesis.

 

A rather bizarre aspect of the recent hydrogen research is the

fact that oral administration of hydrogen water has achieved

effects no less impressive than those observed with continual

inhalation of hydrogen gas – yet oral administration of hydrogen

water produces only a transient and modest increase in plasma

hydrogen, as compared to the impact of hydrogen gas...

 

 

But this ghrelin hypothesis was disproven by a later paper, also undermining the conclusions of  Oral ‘hydrogen water’ induces neuroprotective ghrelin secretion in mice, as ghrelin is not needed--

Molecular hydrogen (H2), as a new medical gas, has protective effects in neurological disorders including Parkinson's disease (PD). In our previous report, the neuroprotective effect of drinking water with saturated H2 (H2 water) in PD mice might be due to stomach-brain interaction via release of gastric hormone, ghrelin. In the present study, we assessed the effect of H2-induced ghrelin more precisely. To confirm the contribution of ghrelin in H2 water-drinking PD model mice, ghrelin-knock out (KO) mice were used. Despite the speculation, the effect of H2 water was still observed in ghrelin-KO PD model mice. To further check the involvement of ghrelin, possible contribution of ghrelin-induced vagal afferent effect was tested by performing subdiaphragmatic vagotomy before treating with H2 water and administration of MPTP (1-methyl- 4-phenyl-1,2,3,6-tetrahydropyridine). The protective effect of H2 water was still observed in the vagotomized mice in substantia nigra, suggesting that stimulation of vagal afferent nerves is not involved in H2-induced neuroprotection. Other neuroprotective substitutes in ghrelin-KO mice were speculated because H2-induced neuroprotection was not cancelled by ghrelin receptor antagonist, D-Lys3 GHRP-6, in ghrelin-KO PD model mice, unlike in wild-type PD model mice. Our results indicate that ghrelin may not be the only factor for H2-induced neuroprotection and other factors can substitute the role of ghrelin when ghrelin is absent, raising intriguing options of research for H2-responsive factors.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/28462451

 

 

 

 

Thus is would seem that inhaled hydrogen is the way to go, being "no less impressive" and the gas much easier to make.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 21 January 2018 - 01:11 PM.

[Hip]

That new study you found is interesting: Complexity of Stomach-Brain Interaction Induced by Molecular Hydrogen in Parkinson's Disease Model Mice

 

Though it does not disprove the idea that ghrelin is involved in the neuroprotective benefits of H2, but rather finds that H2 may also work by other neuroprotective mechanisms independent of its ability to stimulate ghrelin release. The paper concludes:

 

 

As a conclusion, it is plausible that ghrelin is not the only factor for H2-induced neuroprotection.

 

 

The question is, though, does breathing H2 gas also stimulate ghrelin release? It may well do, but I cannot find any definitive statement on that. So far I have only found papers that indicate drinking hydrogen rich water stimulates ghrelin release. If we can find a paper proving that breathing H2 gas leads to ghrelin release, that would settle the matter. But to my knowledge, only drinking hydrogen rich water has been proven to stimulate ghrelin release.

 

I agree that making H2 gas in the way you describe is pretty easy, and would be a nice and convenient way of administering H2. But if it misses out on ghrelin, then it's less than ideal.

 

This is what the Molecular Hydrogen Foundation say about breathing H2 gas versus drinking hydrogen rich water:

 

 

 

WHICH METHOD IS THE BEST?

 

Each one of these methods has a therapeutic effect. Although drinking H2-rich water doesn’t provide as many hydrogen molecules to the body as other methods, it is likely the easiest and a very effective approach. In fact, in one study using a rat model of Parkinson’s disease, it was seen that drinking H2-rich water, but not inhaling 2% H2 gas or increasing intestinal H2 production via lactulose administration, was effective.

 

Perhaps this is because inhaling H2 gas and H2 gas production via the bacteria gives a continuous exposure of H211 (allowing homeostasis to be achieved), but drinking H2 water gives an intermittent exposure. Indeed this same study showed that intermittent inhalation of 2% H2 was somewhat effective. Another reason that drinking H2 water is important is because it allows gastric induction of ghrelin, which is mediated via activation of beta 1 adrenergic receptors. The consensus is that not only is drinking H2-rich water the easiest, it is often the most effective.

Edited by Hip, 21 January 2018 - 06:04 PM.

[Hip]

If you want a brief summary of my "test tube within a bottle" method of making 5 ppm hydrogen rich water (a method which was slowly developed and perfected over time on this thread), an overview of the method can be found in this post.

[Nate-2004]

This thread has more info about making good HW at the beginning. I actually quit using it because I don't need ghrelin or growth hormone and it wasn't helping for tremor. However I recently discovered that people with the rs4880 snp of AG may need to take it to counter the effects of low SOD2. 

 

I find it a royal pain to make this stuff even in the way that Turnbuckle and others at the beginning of this thread (see video posted there) recommend making it. I also struggle with the fact that all we have for research is mouse model based studies. Nothing in vivo with humans. It's poorly researched which doesn't mean there isn't any evidence but it also means that you're just gambling with mostly your time and a small amount of money replacing rods, bottle caps and bottles occasionally. I may start doing it again. If anything at least with the rods they have manganese and magnesium which are always good in any case. But you get that with spinach smoothies.

[Turnbuckle]

A few notes: A problem with the research trials of inhaled H2 is the low dosage used, typically 1-4%, when it is quite possible to inhale 100% intermittently, giving transitory but very high levels. So there is a wide research gap between the present 1-4% breathing mix and old trials with hyperbaric hydrogen, where anti-cancer activity was found. And I expect that the "silica hydride" long sold by pyramid power guy Patrick Flanagan as microhydrin also gets its effects from hydrogen, though at H2 doses closer to HW. I tried microhydrin nearly twenty years ago, and while I found it did indeed do something, the silica in it increased my BP dramatically. From my recent use of inhaled H2--just three times now--I would consider it to be an excellent anti-oxidant.

 

I find it a royal pain to make this stuff even in the way that Turnbuckle and others at the beginning of this thread (see video posted there) recommend making it.

 

 

 

I didn't make recommendations at the beginning of this thread. My recommendation is to make an inhalant gas, and the method is in post #548, which is simplicity itself.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 21 January 2018 - 07:30 PM.

[Nate-2004]

A few notes: A problem with the research trials of inhaled H2 is the low dosage used, typically 1-4%, when it is quite possible to inhale 100% intermittently, giving transitory but very high levels. So there is a wide research gap between the present 1-4% breathing mix and old trials with hyperbaric hydrogen, where anti-cancer activity was found. And I expect that the "silica hydride" long sold by pyramid power guy Patrick Flanagan as microhydrin also gets its effects from hydrogen, though at H2 doses closer to HW. I tried microhydrin nearly twenty years ago, and while I found it did indeed do something, the silica in it increased my BP dramatically. From my recent use of inhaled H2--just three times now--I would consider it to be an excellent anti-oxidant.

 

I find it a royal pain to make this stuff even in the way that Turnbuckle and others at the beginning of this thread (see video posted there) recommend making it.

 

 

 

I didn't make recommendations at the beginning of this thread. My recommendation is to make an inhalant gas, and the method is in post #548, which is simplicity itself.

 

Sorry you're right, I'm mainly referring to post #5.

[Hip]

A few notes: A problem with the research trials of inhaled H2 is the low dosage used, typically 1-4%, when it is quite possible to inhale 100% intermittently, giving transitory but very high levels.

 

When I make my 5 ppm hydrogen rich water, there is around 500 ml of H2 compressed at around 7 atmospheres pressure into the top portion of the plastic bottle. When I release this pressure by opening the bottle top, I sometimes do it very slowly, and gulp in the slow stream of H2 gas that comes out of the bottle. 

 

I have not really performed any tests of drinking hydrogen rich water versus breathing H2 gas. Unfortunately I find the effects of hydrogen rich water on mental state are quite mild and subtle, and easy to miss; if there were stronger and more obvious effects, it would make it easier to compare both methods.

[H2enthusiast]

This thread has more info about making good HW at the beginning. I actually quit using it because I don't need ghrelin or growth hormone and it wasn't helping for tremor. However I recently discovered that people with the rs4880 snp of AG may need to take it to counter the effects of low SOD2. 

 

I find it a royal pain to make this stuff even in the way that Turnbuckle and others at the beginning of this thread (see video posted there) recommend making it. I also struggle with the fact that all we have for research is mouse model based studies. Nothing in vivo with humans. It's poorly researched which doesn't mean there isn't any evidence but it also means that you're just gambling with mostly your time and a small amount of money replacing rods, bottle caps and bottles occasionally. I may start doing it again. If anything at least with the rods they have manganese and magnesium which are always good in any case. But you get that with spinach smoothies.

There are roughly 40 human studies and more than that registered and underway. Much is sourced in a thread I started on the main page which has over 100 citations(and more in the follow up comments)

 

There are over 1000 publications on H2 in roughly 10 years. How fast do you expect the science to grow?

[H2enthusiast]

A few notes: A problem with the research trials of inhaled H2 is the low dosage used, typically 1-4%, when it is quite possible to inhale 100% intermittently, giving transitory but very high levels. So there is a wide research gap between the present 1-4% breathing mix and old trials with hyperbaric hydrogen, where anti-cancer activity was found. And I expect that the "silica hydride" long sold by pyramid power guy Patrick Flanagan as microhydrin also gets its effects from hydrogen, though at H2 doses closer to HW. I tried microhydrin nearly twenty years ago, and while I found it did indeed do something, the silica in it increased my BP dramatically. From my recent use of inhaled H2--just three times now--I would consider it to be an excellent anti-oxidant.

 

I find it a royal pain to make this stuff even in the way that Turnbuckle and others at the beginning of this thread (see video posted there) recommend making it.

 

 

 

I didn't make recommendations at the beginning of this thread. My recommendation is to make an inhalant gas, and the method is in post #548, which is simplicity itself.

 

To be blunt, what Flanagan is claiming if f'ing impossible and he's a quack. His Hydride assertion especially is so beyond plausibility it isn't worth addressing. it is incredibly doubtful he is making Silica Hydride, also. Some have tested his product under mass spec and found significant boron concentrations. It is believed he is creating some H2 by using Sodium Borohydride, but it is very hard to test how much H2 is being created as sodium borohydride is an incredibly powerful reducing agent on its own. I would stay far away from his products.

[H2enthusiast]

 

 

 

Putting controversies aside, I appreciate the hydrogen inhalation tecs provided by my namesake adamh, and would just like to run by people a slightly different collection method: place the magnesium and citric acid solution in a capped glass jar that has an air lock to filter out aerosol droplets. For example, http://www.pickl-it....roducts/singles (just make sure the jar is tall enough for your rods). Clamp an aluminum balloon on the airlock. For best safety, do this outdoors in a wide open yard, and not under a roof overhang. That’s it.

 

 

 

I don't know what has been discussed before, but there's no need to make it complicated or expensive. Use a 4oz Boston round bottle, fill it 10-20% full of magnesium shot, and top that with a spoonful of malic or citric acid in water, enough to fill the bottle to about 1/3 full, then snap a party balloon over the top. Allow the balloon to fill to six inches or more and you can intermittently rebreathe the hydrogen from it for ten minutes.

 

Note: the bottle will get rather hot after a few minutes, so best to set it in a larger glass partially full of water to keep it cooler. Afterwards, the pellets can be washed off and reused.

 

This can be dangerous. I wouldn't recommend someone doing this without knowing how much passive oxidation has occurred on the Mg pellets or powder. The volume and rate of H2 creation can be dramatic and as you mentioned the reaction is exothermic. Even with no seal, the pressure can build quickly enough to cause the plastic container to explode and ignite the concentrated H2 being created. I have done so myself in stress tests. The amount needed is much less than you would think, and given the variable sizes of Mg particles, particle size and thus solubility of acids, temperature of water used and strength of containers this could end up causing serious harm to someone.

 

On top of that, you would need to calculate gas creation and not just 'eye ball it' to know if you are getting a therapeutic dosage.

[H2enthusiast]

 

Also, there is no evidence that hydrogen gas in the stomach would have this ghrelin-releasing effect. The study was conducted on hydrogen rich water, not on hydrogen gas.

 

 

 

 

If you are referring to the McCarty paper in the OP, the researcher only noted that the oral route was "no less impressive" than the inhalation route, and thus put forward a ghrelin hypothesis.

 

A rather bizarre aspect of the recent hydrogen research is the

fact that oral administration of hydrogen water has achieved

effects no less impressive than those observed with continual

inhalation of hydrogen gas – yet oral administration of hydrogen

water produces only a transient and modest increase in plasma

hydrogen, as compared to the impact of hydrogen gas...

 

 

But this ghrelin hypothesis was disproven by a later paper, also undermining the conclusions of  Oral ‘hydrogen water’ induces neuroprotective ghrelin secretion in mice, as ghrelin is not needed--

Molecular hydrogen (H2), as a new medical gas, has protective effects in neurological disorders including Parkinson's disease (PD). In our previous report, the neuroprotective effect of drinking water with saturated H2 (H2 water) in PD mice might be due to stomach-brain interaction via release of gastric hormone, ghrelin. In the present study, we assessed the effect of H2-induced ghrelin more precisely. To confirm the contribution of ghrelin in H2 water-drinking PD model mice, ghrelin-knock out (KO) mice were used. Despite the speculation, the effect of H2 water was still observed in ghrelin-KO PD model mice. To further check the involvement of ghrelin, possible contribution of ghrelin-induced vagal afferent effect was tested by performing subdiaphragmatic vagotomy before treating with H2 water and administration of MPTP (1-methyl- 4-phenyl-1,2,3,6-tetrahydropyridine). The protective effect of H2 water was still observed in the vagotomized mice in substantia nigra, suggesting that stimulation of vagal afferent nerves is not involved in H2-induced neuroprotection. Other neuroprotective substitutes in ghrelin-KO mice were speculated because H2-induced neuroprotection was not cancelled by ghrelin receptor antagonist, D-Lys3 GHRP-6, in ghrelin-KO PD model mice, unlike in wild-type PD model mice. Our results indicate that ghrelin may not be the only factor for H2-induced neuroprotection and other factors can substitute the role of ghrelin when ghrelin is absent, raising intriguing options of research for H2-responsive factors.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/28462451

 

 

 

 

Thus is would seem that inhaled hydrogen is the way to go, being "no less impressive" and the gas much easier to make.

 

 

That is a ridiculous assertion without looking at the entire volume of data. Low dose and continues do not work for gas inhalation on PD

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3407490/

As per the most comprehensive review on H2 to date, it found that roughly 100x the volume of gas inhaled was needed to exert the same results as when saturated in water. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/26483953

Most technologies are able to retain between 20-35% of H2 created into the water. The leaders are retaining upwards of 90% by maximizing the dissolution kinetics.

 

For DIY creating 10x the H2 means you have 10x the Magnesium being reacted, and H2 in a confined area. This magnifies the dangers by far more than 10x. Have you ever seen Magnesium burn? You don't want to outside of a controlled setting. 

[H2enthusiast]

Turnbuckle, sorry if this all came out harsh. I don't want to see people hurt or die for one, and do not want to see a massive slow down in research and commercial advancements due to increased regulatory action in response to injuries/death. In the USA, magnesium is already controlled by the State Department and regulations surrounding it have increased in the last several years. People tragicvally harming themselves, burning down houses etc with poorly concocted DIY devices could significantly harm researchers and commercial operations.

[Turnbuckle]

In the USA, magnesium is already controlled by the State Department and regulations surrounding it have increased in the last several years. 

 

You'll have to provide evidence for that.

 

 

That is a ridiculous assertion without looking at the entire volume of data. Low dose and continues do not work for gas inhalation on PD

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3407490/

 

 

 

 

From your link--

 

Continuous administration of 2% hydrogen gas similarly had marginal effects. On the other hand, intermittent administration of 2% hydrogen gas prevented PD in 4 of 6 rats.

 

 

You also said--

As per the most comprehensive review on H2 to date, it found that roughly 100x the volume of gas inhaled was needed to exert the same results as when saturated in water. 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/26483953

 

 

 

That is easily achieved. For the same volume, hydrogen gas has more than 50 times the gas as water at saturation.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 21 January 2018 - 11:05 PM.

[H2enthusiast]

Turnbuckle

As for controlled(loosely as they do not enforce domestic resellers currently once an approved end use is accepted) do you honestly 1. Doubt the govt controls a pretty tidally dangerous element

And 2. Expect me to scour government sites to show this, and then find old versions to demonstrate change OR release confidential emails and forms since this is something I am involved in?

As for your bottom quotes do you understand the difference between dosage and concentration?

[Turnbuckle]

Turnbuckle

As for controlled(loosely as they do not enforce domestic resellers currently once an approved end use is accepted) do you honestly 1. Doubt the govt controls a pretty tidally dangerous element

And 2. Expect me to scour government sites to show this, and then find old versions to demonstrate change OR release confidential emails and forms since this is something I am involved in?

As for your bottom quotes do you understand the difference between dosage and concentration?

 

You can buy magnesium from Amazon, so don't worry about it. The government is not going to stop you. (And how is everyone on this thread making H2 if not with magnesium?) As for the last item--100 ml of H2 gas has more than 50 times the H2 of 100 ml of HW at saturation. 

 

I'm beginning to get the feeling that you aren't here to discuss health protocols, but to sell a product. Am I right? something like hydronade tablets?

Edited by Turnbuckle, 22 January 2018 - 12:09 AM.

[H2enthusiast]

I don't care what brands are sold to be honest. Anyone who asked can vouch I sent over numerous brands and said they're all the same, with options for different tablets in other brands that get less H2 but have better organoleptics- except Europe, there are only a couple being sold their. There are also good inhalers, good machines etc which I have recommended to people in private messages. Varying distributors and brands. No one has every method locked down and many carry the same machines and tablets. Some do not produce therapeutic dosages but charge people upwards of $8000. I am going to clarify to you a few things you clearly do not seem to understand.

 

1. Dosage depends on concentration AND volume. H2 dosage would be in 'mg' or mass, like any other product. Inhalation studies that do not list this are inherently flawed, as they do not account for the mass of H2 depending on altitude, the % base can be skewed substantially. Let's simplify the math, and say that 1mg produces 10ml of H2 gas at sea level(close enough). 1mg dissolved in water would be 1mg/L(ppm) in 1L, or 2ppm in 500ml etc. To get it in inhalation you need to consume 1L of H2. 8L per minute at 2% is 160ml of H2 per minute, or 16mg of H2- meaning inhaling for 1minute is 1/6 the dosage of drinking 500ml at 2ppm for bio-availability. The science is trending to higher dosages, also. 

 

Now consider that 100mg of Mag will produce ~90ml of H2 at sea level, to get the same dosage effectiveness in inhalation you need to react about 1g of Mag over 6 minutes or dissolve 12mg worth of Mag to make the water(with proper pressure and home systems you can get a good 40-50% efficiency in dissolution kinetics, so you would actually need 25mg+) That means you are using far less Mag, far less acid and probably getting a better therapeutic dose. 

 

SO, brings me to: want to make it yourself? Get some fine Mg powder, some citric acid and figure out your ratios. Figure out the chemistry and how to control pH. It's safer and more effective. Dumping a ton of dangerous goods in a bottle and reacting it to make a dangerous gas in an exothermic reaction without having done any of the math is moronic. Make sure it is 99.98% or better to ensure no heavy metal contamination. Can't do that? Maybe you shouldn't be handling dangerous goods.

 

Oh, ok so Amazon is selling it so it is 'all good bro?'. Not really. Basically how it works is there is 1, yes 1, source of Mg in the USA. There are a couple facilities to process it. Anyone buying from them needs a licensed end use, and if they are allowed to resell they are supposed to be reselling within that end use. It isn't monitored. Fireworks suppliers don't ask questions, etc. Some people start to accidentally kill themselves or blow up homes? That may change. Already the shipping/dangerous goods laws have in the last several years. Figure you'll just throw a bunch of Mg rods in without proper purity and let it create H2? May be at risk for magnesium poisoning, exposing yourself to several factors more of heavy metals etc.

 

I criticize stupidity that can have dangerous ramifications. There are smart and safe ways to DIY, and there are negligent and stupid ways that could cause harm and deliver insufficient dosage to have a benefit, regardless.

 

 

 

Turnbuckle

As for controlled(loosely as they do not enforce domestic resellers currently once an approved end use is accepted) do you honestly 1. Doubt the govt controls a pretty tidally dangerous element

And 2. Expect me to scour government sites to show this, and then find old versions to demonstrate change OR release confidential emails and forms since this is something I am involved in?

As for your bottom quotes do you understand the difference between dosage and concentration?

 

You can buy magnesium from Amazon, so don't worry about it. The government is not going to stop you. (And how is everyone on this thread making H2 if not with magnesium?) As for the last item--100 ml of H2 gas has more than 50 times the H2 of 100 ml of HW at saturation. 

 

I'm beginning to get the feeling that you aren't here to discuss health protocols, but to sell a product. Am I right? something like hydronade tablets?

 

 

[Turnbuckle]

 

I don't care what brands are sold to be honest. Anyone who asked can vouch I sent over numerous brands and said they're all the same, with options for different tablets in other brands that get less H2 but have better organoleptics- except Europe, there are only a couple being sold their. There are also good inhalers, good machines etc which I have recommended to people in private messages. Varying distributors and brands. No one has every method locked down and many carry the same machines and tablets. Some do not produce therapeutic dosages but charge people upwards of $8000. I am going to clarify to you a few things you clearly do not seem to understand.

 

1. Dosage depends on concentration AND volume. H2 dosage would be in 'mg' or mass, like any other product. Inhalation studies that do not list this are inherently flawed, as they do not account for the mass of H2 depending on altitude, the % base can be skewed substantially. Let's simplify the math, and say that 1mg produces 10ml of H2 gas at sea level(close enough). 1mg dissolved in water would be 1mg/L(ppm) in 1L, or 2ppm in 500ml etc. To get it in inhalation you need to consume 1L of H2. 8L per minute at 2% is 160ml of H2 per minute, or 16mg of H2- meaning inhaling for 1minute is 1/6 the dosage of drinking 500ml at 2ppm for bio-availability. The science is trending to higher dosages, also. 

 

Now consider that 100mg of Mag will produce ~90ml of H2 at sea level, to get the same dosage effectiveness in inhalation you need to react about 1g of Mag over 6 minutes or dissolve 12mg worth of Mag to make the water(with proper pressure and home systems you can get a good 40-50% efficiency in dissolution kinetics, so you would actually need 25mg+) That means you are using far less Mag, far less acid and probably getting a better therapeutic dose. 

 

SO, brings me to: want to make it yourself? Get some fine Mg powder, some citric acid and figure out your ratios. Figure out the chemistry and how to control pH. It's safer and more effective. Dumping a ton of dangerous goods in a bottle and reacting it to make a dangerous gas in an exothermic reaction without having done any of the math is moronic. Make sure it is 99.98% or better to ensure no heavy metal contamination. Can't do that? Maybe you shouldn't be handling dangerous goods.

 

Oh, ok so Amazon is selling it so it is 'all good bro?'. Not really. Basically how it works is there is 1, yes 1, source of Mg in the USA. There are a couple facilities to process it. Anyone buying from them needs a licensed end use, and if they are allowed to resell they are supposed to be reselling within that end use. It isn't monitored. Fireworks suppliers don't ask questions, etc. Some people start to accidentally kill themselves or blow up homes? That may change. Already the shipping/dangerous goods laws have in the last several years. Figure you'll just throw a bunch of Mg rods in without proper purity and let it create H2? May be at risk for magnesium poisoning, exposing yourself to several factors more of heavy metals etc.

 

I criticize stupidity that can have dangerous ramifications. There are smart and safe ways to DIY, and there are negligent and stupid ways that could cause harm and deliver insufficient dosage to have a benefit, regardless.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You really don't care what brands are being sold, to be honest? Aren't you advising people on this site which brand of mag tablets to use? Didn't you say that you have patent applications on this stuff, as you posted when you introduced yourself a week ago--

 

Predominantly molecular hydrogen. Working with public(primarily) teams in assessing areas to study and appropriate dosing and duration protocols based on the cumulative knowledge of the 1000+ existing publications(mostly in animals or in vitro, but roughly 40-50 published human clinical studies), evidence of various pathways, transcription factors etc and co authoring papers on conclusions erroneously attributed to the wrong mechanism. I am also collaborating on papers being written regarding glycation crosslinking and potential novel preventative measures. I can't go into much detail on any of the above until completed...That being said my primary focus in the last two years has been product and device development(on the two above areas), with 13 pending patents as the primary inventor filed in this time

 

 

 

And you said here: "I can recommend brands but would prefer to do it privately."

 

Patent applications imply that you have either a present or hoped for commercial interest, and making recommendations implies that it is most likely a present interest.

 

As for your math on dosage, I am using 100% H2 for inhalation, not 2%, so you are a bit off. I hope you do better on your patents.

 

As for your statement, "Make sure [the magnesium] is 99.98% or better to ensure no heavy metal contamination," it is, but it doesn't matter as I am only using the H2, and not drinking the liquid. Nor am I using rods as you suggested, as the surface area to volume is too small. Magnesium shot is much better.

 

Then you warn about people killing themselves and blowing up homes. Obviously you don't want to use open flames around hydrogen or other flammable gasses. Everyone carries around combustible gases in their intestines without harm ... until someone tries lighting a fart. So it's possible to be injured as people will find a way--even the Hindenburg had a smoking compartment, for instance. But no need for the undocumented hysteria.

[Nate-2004]

 

This thread has more info about making good HW at the beginning. I actually quit using it because I don't need ghrelin or growth hormone and it wasn't helping for tremor. However I recently discovered that people with the rs4880 snp of AG may need to take it to counter the effects of low SOD2. 

 

I find it a royal pain to make this stuff even in the way that Turnbuckle and others at the beginning of this thread (see video posted there) recommend making it. I also struggle with the fact that all we have for research is mouse model based studies. Nothing in vivo with humans. It's poorly researched which doesn't mean there isn't any evidence but it also means that you're just gambling with mostly your time and a small amount of money replacing rods, bottle caps and bottles occasionally. I may start doing it again. If anything at least with the rods they have manganese and magnesium which are always good in any case. But you get that with spinach smoothies.

There are roughly 40 human studies and more than that registered and underway. Much is sourced in a thread I started on the main page which has over 100 citations(and more in the follow up comments)

 

There are over 1000 publications on H2 in roughly 10 years. How fast do you expect the science to grow?

 

 

It's been a year since I last checked but it's good they're finally starting to study how this affects humans. I'm assuming they're starting on specific treatments for various diseases like PD. I don't know what "main page" you're talking about I must have missed that, this thread has been the main one for the last couple of years.

Edited by Nate-2004, 22 January 2018 - 02:21 PM.