361 replies to this topic

[limerence]

Oh I see iu conversion is different based on substance my bad. What disability was that?

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[pamojja]

Peripheral arterial disease (PAD). Practically about a 80% blockage/stenosis at my abdominal aorta bifurcation, causing intermittent  claudication. At worst with 3-400 meter pain-free walking distance only.

[Heisok]

pamojja, that is excellent that you have reversed your P.A.D. great job. I think you mean 7700 IU/d maybe accidently had a period in the number instead of a comma. I have also been taking at least 7000 IU/d also. I went up from about 4000 IU due to Life Extension's analysis that the blood work they had been seeing showed sub-optimal D levels even with some supplementation for members. Could be the fear of skin cancer causing more use of sunscreen. Do you get tested for levels?

 

 

limerence, there are many companies selling D3. Not sure that a conspiracy could be coordinated. It is one of the cheapest supplements in the U.S. Can get 360 count of 5000 IU D3 for $6.75 to around $12 or ao or less than 5  cents per day.

 

Edited by Heisok, 31 August 2016 - 09:13 PM.

[pamojja]

Do you get tested for levels?

 

In these 7 years I tested 25(OH)D3 11 times, in average serum level was 60 ng/ml. But vitamin D3 is only a tiny part of comprehensive supplementation including all essential nutrients. Actually started out and had my first success with Pauling's therapy against CVD, but only once I reached his dosage recommendations for vitamin C and l-lysine - always start a new supplement with the lowest possible dose and increase gradually over weeks, months and years.. Additional loads of plant extracts.

 

 

Since we are actually on the topic of testosterone, had a very pronounced androgen deficiency all these 7 years. Just when I would have found a insurance-paid doc willing to prescribe TRT, November last year, they suddenly increased:

 

LH and FSH almost doubled, and are now midrange.
Total testosterone went from 340 to an all time high of 588 ng/dl (193-740 normal range; lowest ever was at 187).
Free testosterone went from its lowest 4.2 gradually up to now 10.3 pg/ml (8.7-54.7 range).
SHBG increased from 57 to 81 nmol/l (18-54 range); E2 hasn't been retested since it's been normal at 21 pg/ml.
FRI improved from 16.5 to 25 (21-69 range for my age group).
24 hrs urine cortisol came down from 358 to 240 µg/24h (56-286 range).
And DHEAs went from 548 down to 155 µg/dl (44 - 331 range; strangely new units, before always was tested ng/dl with a range of 137-471. Does anyone know how to convert µg/dl to ng/dl? The converters which came up with a search didn't made sense at all).

 

The reason DHEAs as the only hormone decreasing is, that I agreed to stop all hormone related supplements (DHEA, prenenolone, thyroid glandular, T3, tongkat ali, horny goad weed, DAA) for the month before the latest retest.

 

Go figure

Edited by pamojja, 31 August 2016 - 10:05 PM.

[Jason Long]

I think we should be focusing on eliminating everything else before vitamin D. Sorry, D3, for those lacking arguments. Besides, this is no Cosmopolitan, if there is thesis that d3 lowers your immunity, please present some evidence;)

(again, I m last to advocate synthetic vitamins...but if you work in afternoons or night)

[gamesguru]

you can just sunbathe and get D2 from mushies.  the kind you buy at Kroger, ya silly sausage.  it takes about 2 hours (4 in the Winter) with face, neck, and arms exposed to get the 400 I.U. from sun exposure.  ergo, mushies.  or you can slap on a thong and full-body tan in the backyard for 30 minutes

 

same philosophy with magnesium.  rice and beans are a great start.  sprouted ezekiel bread has 4% per slice.  hemp protein has a whopping 60% magnesium with every 15g of protein, like what the fuck man!  a container of yogurt and banana provide another 10%. etc etc

[limerence]

I posted plenty of evidence

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[gamesguru]

you posted it?  Where?  Can't find much in the literature to suggest a danger, especially with moderate sunbathing and food-based vitamin D2.  Are you related to normalizing?

No toxicity due to high-dose vitamin D₃ was reported. The present study in MS patients showed that high doses of vitamin D₃ are safe.

http://www.catie.ca/...-lessons-multip

 

levels are tightly regulated in a negative feedback loop. 1,25 D both inhibits renal 1-α-hydroxylase and stimulates the 24-hydroxylase enzymes, thus maintaining circulating levels within limited boundaries and preventing excessive vitamin D activity/signaling.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3166406/

[birthdaysuit]

 

you posted it?  Where?  Can't find much in the literature to suggest a danger, especially with moderate sunbathing and food-based vitamin D2.  Are you related to normalizing?

No toxicity due to high-dose vitamin D₃ was reported. The present study in MS patients showed that high doses of vitamin D₃ are safe.

http://www.catie.ca/...-lessons-multip

 

levels are tightly regulated in a negative feedback loop. 1,25 D both inhibits renal 1-α-hydroxylase and stimulates the 24-hydroxylase enzymes, thus maintaining circulating levels within limited boundaries and preventing excessive vitamin D activity/signaling.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3166406/

 

 

From the studies I've read it seems that vitamin D appears to exert protective effects in an animal model of multiple sclerosis but then again, if multiple sclerosis and/or other autoimmune diseases are caused by an infectious agent suppressing the immune system in the initial phase of infection would be counterproductive. That isn't to say vitamin D suppresses the immune system. Generally, from the studies I've read Vitamin D mediates nitric oxide levels, mediates IFN-gamma, mediates and decreases IL-10 as a auto-regulatory feedback mechanism and mediates NK-cells. In the case of infection, Vitamin D would both help your immune system fight pathogens, modulate the TH1/TH2 differentiation and also aid in increasing IL-10 in the case of disseminated infection with MS like symptoms. So maybe in late-Lyme infection supplementing Vitamin D isn't the best idea but then again, there's so many paradoxical studies that I don't know.
 

[Junk Master]

Swanson's triple Boron works...

 

Ok, it's always tough to know if any testosterone enhancer will work AS well for younger men v. over 45.  For example, 50 Mg of DHEA every other day works pretty well for me, but I'm nearing 50 and I don't care for the bit of puffiness I get I'm assuming comes from increased Estrogen levels when I take it.

 

But after a week of Triple Boron at 20 mg per day I definitely notice a difference.  My face is more drawn and I am getting a few facial pimples, which I normally never get.  Plus, in the category of too much information, morning um...excitement is more pronounce.

 

After looking at a few studies, it seems Boron raises FSH in rats, so I wonder if it does raise testosterone in older men, and like Clomid, in overtrained or endurance athletes with high cortisol levels.

 

Looks like it might be best to cycle it for 30 days on and then take a break, though.

 

The source is from the examine.com supplements site, and the links to the study are provided.

 

 

"One toxicological study in rats noted that, as it pertains to testosterone, that over 30 days of observation that there was an increase in testosterone in a dose-dependent manner up to 122% elevations (2000ppm) but that the progression of toxicological effects over 60 days reversed the increase in testosterone in the highest group to a decline while the lowest group (500mg) experiencing a 10.5% increase at day 30 increased this to 158% at day 60.[29] These results suggest that boron accumulation in the testes contributes to an increase in testosterone, and time or dose can be contributing factors and have been replicated with 25mg/kg over 6 weeks (toxicity) while 2-12.5mg/kg were associated with improvements in testosterone.[27]"

 

I'm going to decrease my dose to 10 mg, begin to supplement with vitamin D as soon as the sunlight here moves to fall mode, and cycle on and off every 30 days for a while.

[Jason Long]

I posted plenty of evidence

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Where exactly? Hipi stuff isn't evidence...I think all people here are well hazardous-conscious. 

[limerence]

Does titling something "the truth about" turn all the facts and fair citations into hipi bs? Severe auto immunity is probably one of the few times short term d3 supplementation might be OK. As discussed few posts back. Though if someone is that sick it might make them much worse, I guess depends the causr, any way d3 should not be OTC and in much of our food lol. Why do you need to supplement d3 when the sunlight goes away? A health person can store adequate amounts, cod liver oil would be much safer and do the job as well. Last time I'll say it. Also d3 supplements are dirty cheap but its still a multimillion dollar industry. Its not like some company goes on forums like these and shills their $250 testo supplement (lol), its a different type of shilling Pushing to get it in so much foodstuff. If you ask random folks about supplements and vitamins, vitamin d is one of the most well known ones because of so much marketing.

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Here's some quick
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC4160567/
http://www.hopkinsme...y_not_be_better

Edited by limerence, 02 September 2016 - 03:23 PM.

[Jason Long]

Does titling something "the truth about" turn all the facts and fair citations into hipi bs? Severe auto immunity is probably one of the few times short term d3 supplementation might be OK. As discussed few posts back. Though if someone is that sick it might make them much worse, I guess depends the causr, any way d3 should not be OTC and in much of our food lol. Why do you need to supplement d3 when the sunlight goes away? A health person can store adequate amounts, cod liver oil would be much safer and do the job as well. Last time I'll say it. Also d3 supplements are dirty cheap but its still a multimillion dollar industry. Its not like some company goes on forums like these and shills their $250 testo supplement (lol), its a different type of shilling Pushing to get it in so much foodstuff. If you ask random folks about supplements and vitamins, vitamin d is one of the most well known ones because of so much marketing.

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Here's some quick
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC4160567/
http://www.hopkinsme...y_not_be_better

 

That is more likely. Still, no sufficient evidence to blacklist vitamin D (in comparism with A, E..); first article regarding (genetically) dysregulated vitamin D metabolism, others questions xtra high dosages... Sure, I agree with a COD liver part (I actually buy it from Twinlab), but you must always take into consideration risks. vs. advantages. For me and most people with the same lifestyle, some xtra vitamin D is correlated with much lower negative effects that its deficiency. 

In Europe and New Zeland, people are totally unaware of vit D (besides talking about sun issues).

Btw, you know that this is test increasment topic...much unhealthier substances found here with evidented toxicity...

[gamesguru]

With all due respect lime, keep the discussions relevant and your posts brief. Your rambling is unwelcome.. espouse your developmental stages in a private notepad not a public forum. Ffs mate, you couldn't even specify your evidence other than "I already posted plenty of evidence [somewhere]". Like wtf man, where?!

The concerns on vitamin d have indeed been blown far out of proportion, and in an irrelevant topic (immunity). Lime, please, if you're going to make another post, make it brief, purely constructive and directly related to testosterone!

Among the unhealthier or more questionable items on the list are saturated fat, aspartic acid, tribulus, populus, fenugreek, bryonia, and DHEA. What am I getting at here? Just please, nobody chew us out on the harms these things can cause. If you haven't got anything constructive to say.. don't be a shit lad. Just keep to yourself, alright mate?

[Nootrimaniac]

Ashwagandha is great. You protect your system from stress which is good to keep the testo flowing.

[gamesguru]

None of the classic adaptogens protect me from stress, not even when stacked aggressively, but I'm not a typical case. Stress is definitely one of the main factors keeping me at a plateau in the gym and just socially. It's kind of why I started this thread.

[Wagner83]

I tried ashwagandha and it just made me sedated as fuck, many people swear by it though. On the other hand I've really enjoyed therootofthematter rhodiola (3% 1%) as a special treat for stressful times. I've been taking tongkat ali as lj100 (patented extract) for two weeks now. I did not take days off, the first five days libido was like that of a teenager, however it wore off and then all I got were effects on mood as well as feeling relaxed and confident (which may be vanishing too, next time I'll cycle it) , quite the opposite of the first week where I was more tensed (muscles) and a bit jittery.

As for stress there is more than the pills route (e.g. long term meditation could help).

 

Has anyone experienced benefits from supplementing with zinc? As I understand it if one does not eat shellfish it's easy to be deficient.

 

Eating a ton of spinach for dinner should help with magnesium intake .

Edited by Wagner83, 06 September 2016 - 09:37 AM.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

Very interesting with pyridoxal-5-phosphate (B6). It's supposed to reduce sex hormone receptor "activity" (or maybe I've misunderstood it) yet it does have minor androgenic effects in terms of increased morning and night time libido.

http://lpi.oregonsta...ormone-function

[gamesguru]

Tongkat is a weak DRI^[1] (dopamine reuptake inhibitor), that would explain the increased energy as well as the tolerance issues.  Only had one batch of rhodiola back in the day, from the most generic/popular supplier *cough*, and wasn't impressed (with that batch, at least).  I've heard a lot of things about maca..?  For me, just the essential stuff does the trick wonderfully, you know, ginkgo, ginseng, hemp protein, flaxseed, mineral water, kelp, and the likes.

 

Just looked it up, and B6 is in meat and potatoes, as well as non-citrus fruit.  Ranging from 25-70% per serving (about 200 cals on average)  Deficiencies are rare, and there's nothing remarkable about its uptake or metabolism.  So, nobody's hurting there.

For zinc, yeah it's easier to miss out.  Again I had to look it up beef, lamb, pumpkin and sesame seeds, lentils, chickpeas, and quinoa all great sources.

[Wagner83]

Well to be honest TA is not going to be a miracle, several factors play a part . The libido effects definitely tapered off (although it made me feel like a teen and still is significantly above baseline) , but the mood effects are very good, I feel relaxed , confident and mood is up despite being in stressful times. The sumatra pasak bumi TA I tried was completely worthless.

Yeah well that's an in vitro study though, I'll continue to take the TA and will update you on how it went.

The thing about rhodiola and tongkat ali is that it's easy to get low quality products and not experience anything. If you ever want to give them a try I gave you my sources. For the lj100 I buy it from olympus labs.

 

I tried maca,and noticed big boost in libido and energy but tolerance built up very quick (days) and I could not never get close to the effects again . At the time I took a combination of ginseng, maca, and pomegranate juice, I was constantly semi erect and horny. For all I know these effects could have been caused by the other supplements or their addition.

I dont think ginseng is any better than TA or Rhodiola, I remember reading in Chinese medicine they only gave it to certain older people.

Isn't flaxseed anti dht?

Edited by Wagner83, 06 September 2016 - 05:48 PM.

[gamesguru]

Green tea is anti-testosterone.  Mushrooms are anti-estrogen.  Flaxseed is anti-DHT.  But the thing is, none of these eliminate the hormone completely, only partially.  So, yes, while estrogen is essential to joint and cartilage health, no taking mushrooms will not increase risk for arthritis.  By the same token, flaxseed may be very slightly beneficial to those with thinning hair, but it's not going to affect your confidence.  You'll still be the DHT-fueled bald manly man you always were.  Except if you were a pussy, then you'll be an even bigger one (*cough* Area's DHT thread).  Congrats, chicko.  So in summary, a handful of flax a day does nothing to interfere with my raging boners.

 

It's just a matter of preference.  I don't like rhodiola, but like I said my opinion has just been based on one shit quality batch.  Eventually I'll get around to it again.  To ginseng I haven't noticed too much tolerance, so it must affect dopamine in a specific way.  TA you admitted had tolerance.  Rhodiola I don't think does, not so much at least.  So at least in this way, ginseng is better than TA?  Another idea is to rotate these, e.g. ginseng Monday, maca Tuesday, TA Wesdnesday, etc. etc.  But if all share a common dopaminergic thread, overlap tolerance is inevitable.

 

A few authors, although they write colloquially (e.g. 'bottomline'), seem sure of themselves that pomegranite (though PDE5 inhibitor) is not useful for ED.  It's good for other things, but even grapefruit had a more impressive anti-impotence effect^[1]:

The bottom line is that daily pomegranate juice for 28 days did not improve one’s erection regardless of whether one was in the first or second treatment group.

 

Edited by gamesguru, 06 September 2016 - 07:20 PM.

[limerence]

Is the reason you fools don't try pine pollen is cuz examine.org? Based on how y'all type doesn't sound like you have very high test.
Also you argue like women, at least how you did with me few days back, so good thing youre trying to raise your test. D3 is very related to test also, might be one big factor holding y'all back. And you want me to break down why d3 is bad? I posted a PDF that was 100% quality peer review studies and hard textbook science broken down simply as possible and it gets ridiculed for being too hippy?? Or maybe it not pretentious enough? I get nothing from you taking my advice. just your response is probably a prime example of the behavior and logic that holds you back, least to some degree. It seems like some of you just want studies and their peers to reassure their decision to take supplements, regardless of their effect, which is dumb.

some of you are going about this wrong. Everything is what it is. If you're a champion ball player, you're gonna have high test. If you sit a desk for hours, pretentiously reading too much into studies and expecting your peas to grow into tennis balls from taking some herbs, much lol. You have to transform yourself. Like d3 is a very powerful steroid that effects many bodily functions and ultimately state of mind, so is testosterone and similar hormones. If you win everything in life you're not gonna be a loser. If you fail and suck at life you're not gonna to be a champion. Neuroticism is a bitch, brahs. brotips, only trying to help. Don't take it personal

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[Jason Long]

None of the classic adaptogens protect me from stress, not even when stacked aggressively, but I'm not a typical case. Stress is definitely one of the main factors keeping me at a plateau in the gym and just socially. It's kind of why I started this thread.

 

What kind of stress do you have in mind? Adaptogens aren't something that binds gaba-b receptors or have sedative effects...the effects are more or less physical, maybe with mental fatigue / brain fog reduction and in same cases increased focus. I noticed spike in libido after taking Cordyceps, but than again, it was really expensive one (with 30percent of polysaccharides). The catch is that you find the quality ones (which are rarer as diamonds) and as some asian researcher put it in "why Ginseng doesn't work", the study panels should be designed with 1-3g of Ginseng per day, for more than one month and administrated to specific group (like sportsmen). If you are interesting in that topic, I just open a new thread about this: http://www.longecity...-manufacturers/

 

[Jason Long]

Is the reason you fools don't try pine pollen is cuz examine.org? Based on how y'all type doesn't sound like you have very high test.
Also you argue like women, at least how you did with me few days back, so good thing youre trying to raise your test. D3 is very related to test also, might be one big factor holding y'all back. And you want me to break down why d3 is bad? I posted a PDF that was 100% quality peer review studies and hard textbook science broken down simply as possible and it gets ridiculed for being too hippy?? Or maybe it not pretentious enough? I get nothing from you taking my advice. just your response is probably a prime example of the behavior and logic that holds you back, least to some degree. It seems like some of you just want studies and their peers to reassure their decision to take supplements, regardless of their effect, which is dumb.

some of you are going about this wrong. Everything is what it is. If you're a champion ball player, you're gonna have high test. If you sit a desk for hours, pretentiously reading too much into studies and expecting your peas to grow into tennis balls from taking some herbs, much lol. You have to transform yourself. Like d3 is a very powerful steroid that effects many bodily functions and ultimately state of mind, so is testosterone and similar hormones. If you win everything in life you're not gonna be a loser. If you fail and suck at life you're not gonna to be a champion. Neuroticism is a bitch, brahs. brotips, only trying to help. Don't take it personal

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Arogant behaviour is not sign of high testosterone or being manyl, but just a sign of complexes from the youth. Adressing people fools will only get you banned from here, not grow your tiny........  Keep doing that.

As for the topic:
-Bee pollen is an excellent test enhancing herb, we specifically emphasized it for that.
-No sufficient evidence was presented and no scientist would make a proof from a thesis regarding "overkill with D group"; while on the other hand there is a pile of evidence for improving overall health and logevity (especially at elderies)
-Vitamin D3 is not a typical hormone and no biochemist calls him a hormone, especially with the bad connotation you have labelled it; it has an open ring and it is synthetisezed in the body...for every substance, no matter how healthy it is you can find cons. Try omega-3; higher plasma concentration in blood is connected with the most agressive forms of prostate cancer

-The biggest misunderstanding here - no, it is not that champion ball player will have per defenitium bigger dick...sorry, higher T levels than an office worker. Mostly is genetic More than T levels is the density of the testosterone receptors that promotes power output. If you don't belive me, go to gym from time to time and check it out under the shower;)

For winning FTW.
-

Edited by Jason Long, 07 September 2016 - 01:24 AM.

[Junk Master]

Not to sidetrack things even more but quite a few "champion" ballplayers get where they are because of their genetic response to exogenous levels of testosterone/synthetic androgens.

 

Some people just benefit more from performance enhancing drugs than others.  Plus, at some point, it becomes more about who can handle the most drugs without dying/getting ill for the longest period of time.

 

I love old studies that cite "supraphysiological" doses of test at 600 mg per week, and conclude it's muscle building results are inconclusive.

 

http://www.nejm.org/...50101#t=article

 

Meanwhile bodybuilders of that era were already moving past a gram of test per week PLUS at least one or two other steroids at the same time.

 

For a glimpse at what non-competitive nutrition company "guru's" take now--

 

http://roidvisor.com...-steroid-cycle/

[limerence]

You don't have to be blessed genetically to be a good athlete, though it can make it much easier and allow you more potential. Mindset is very important for having high test. If you have high test you will have a significantly different mindset than having low t. D3 is a steroid not a hormone, I though all steroids were hormones but I guess not. It still has great effect on hormones.
You are fools if you will take tongkat and bee pollen instead of pine pollen. Try it and tell me I'm wrong, I'd pay for it but it will work way better than pretty much anything else suggested in this thread. Its not well studied but there are a few Dr who pimp it and tons of anecdotes. Higher d levels are good but taking d3 supplements are not good but do what you gotta do. I dare you to read that PDF and tell me why its wrong. Just don't say no one warned you when you stop taking it and feel better. My pecker is also about as large as it gets pal lol.

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[Wagner83]

 

Green tea is anti-testosterone.  Mushrooms are anti-estrogen.  Flaxseed is anti-DHT.  But the thing is, none of these eliminate the hormone completely, only partially.  So, yes, while estrogen is essential to joint and cartilage health, no taking mushrooms will not increase risk for arthritis.  By the same token, flaxseed may be very slightly beneficial to those with thinning hair, but it's not going to affect your confidence.  You'll still be the DHT-fueled bald manly man you always were.  Except if you were a pussy, then you'll be an even bigger one (*cough* Area's DHT thread).  Congrats, chicko.  So in summary, a handful of flax a day does nothing to interfere with my raging boners.

 

It's just a matter of preference.  I don't like rhodiola, but like I said my opinion has just been based on one shit quality batch.  Eventually I'll get around to it again.  To ginseng I haven't noticed too much tolerance, so it must affect dopamine in a specific way.  TA you admitted had tolerance.  Rhodiola I don't think does, not so much at least.  So at least in this way, ginseng is better than TA?  Another idea is to rotate these, e.g. ginseng Monday, maca Tuesday, TA Wesdnesday, etc. etc.  But if all share a common dopaminergic thread, overlap tolerance is inevitable.

 

 

 

I'm not sure what the tone of that first part was but understood the idea.

 

What I said was TA positive effects do not come only from dopamine (if at all), I still experience really positive effects but of course will need to see how it works in the next weeks. Is tolerance only related to dopamine?

 

limerence, pine pollen is interesting , what is your source ? Is a tincture better than powder? It contains testosterone , wouldn't it be slightly suppressive in the long term?

https://www.anabolic...n-testosterone/

 

http://www.longecity...ndpost&p=684901

 

Here even Barlowe, a pine pollen seller, advises to cycle it https://barlowesherb...pine-pollen.hml

Edited by Wagner83, 07 September 2016 - 09:28 AM.

[gamesguru]

What I said was TA positive effects do not come only from dopamine (if at all), I still experience really positive effects but of course will need to see how it works in the next weeks.

 

Is tolerance only related to dopamine?

 

Well, common aphrodisiacs work through [or d'you know of another mechanism?  anything that modulates oxytocin is a rare beast] modulation on dopamine, or serotonin (particularly 2A and 2C) which in turn regulates many pathways.  Behind noradrenaline, serotonin neurons are the rarest.  IIRC, something like 500,000 serotonins and 50,000 nors... we're talking out of 100 billion.  So it's minuscule, but a case of quality vs. quantity, a little army defeating a great one.  Limbic 5-HT2C is the most tiny and pathetic cluster, but its blockade somehow[!] dictates the release of dopamine along several major pathways.. relevant ones, such as the preoptic area^[a], and the accumbens^[b].  Now, I hadn't seen anything in the literature connecting tongkat with serotonin, just dopamine^[1].  Same goes for kava^[2].  Doesn't mean they'll ever lose all effects, tolerance just sets in fast, serotonin goes even faster.  Like a day or two.  You could always alternate compounds with the day of the week.

[sativa]

Regarding oxytocin, apparently forskolin and NGF upregulates oxytocin...

[gamesguru]

Ayeee mate, ya done good.  Well researched.  From now on, I'll be slipping my dates forskolin.

 

Pine pollen contain insignificant levels of testosterone.  Additionally, oral testosterone is quickly metabolized by the liver.  That's why you see dianabol tabs, but no test tabs.  So it's a double whammy, two nails in the coffin... anyone suggesting a significant direct action from pine's exogenous testosterone is probably low T, certainly low cognition.