364 replies to this topic

[gamesguru]

What I said was TA positive effects do not come only from dopamine (if at all), I still experience really positive effects but of course will need to see how it works in the next weeks.

 

Is tolerance only related to dopamine?

 

Well, common aphrodisiacs work through [or d'you know of another mechanism?  anything that modulates oxytocin is a rare beast] modulation on dopamine, or serotonin (particularly 2A and 2C) which in turn regulates many pathways.  Behind noradrenaline, serotonin neurons are the rarest.  IIRC, something like 500,000 serotonins and 50,000 nors... we're talking out of 100 billion.  So it's minuscule, but a case of quality vs. quantity, a little army defeating a great one.  Limbic 5-HT2C is the most tiny and pathetic cluster, but its blockade somehow[!] dictates the release of dopamine along several major pathways.. relevant ones, such as the preoptic area^[a], and the accumbens^[b].  Now, I hadn't seen anything in the literature connecting tongkat with serotonin, just dopamine^[1].  Same goes for kava^[2].  Doesn't mean they'll ever lose all effects, tolerance just sets in fast, serotonin goes even faster.  Like a day or two.  You could always alternate compounds with the day of the week.

[sativa]

Regarding oxytocin, apparently forskolin and NGF upregulates oxytocin...

[gamesguru]

Ayeee mate, ya done good.  Well researched.  From now on, I'll be slipping my dates forskolin.

 

Pine pollen contain insignificant levels of testosterone.  Additionally, oral testosterone is quickly metabolized by the liver.  That's why you see dianabol tabs, but no test tabs.  So it's a double whammy, two nails in the coffin... anyone suggesting a significant direct action from pine's exogenous testosterone is probably low T, certainly low cognition.

[Wagner83]

Pine pollen tincture (sublingual) could be a different story and it's also a superfood.

 

Regarding TA I read it had AI properties in vitro, could decrease shbg (could be connected with a decrease in E2) and even increase test slightly, although the latter were info shared by the famous Dr Tambi and the lj100 extract. The problem is dosage , what extract one uses and if these statements are true. Experiencing and getting blood work done sounds like the only answer.

 

I'm quite impressed with these guys' whole herbs, they have detailed 3rd party testing for each batch and each herb available to all (previously known as superman herbs) : https://lostempirehe...category/herbs/

Edited by Wagner83, 08 September 2016 - 09:30 AM.

[gamesguru]

No, it's the same story!  The tincture has 80-240ng/mg of testosterone (an utterly trivial amount), and 99% of that is destroyed by the liver on the first pass.  So please guys, let's drop the pine pollen discussion.  If a plant extract significantly boosts testosterone, it is not because it contains testosterone!  It contains enzyme inhibitors, metabolic promoters, precursors (DHEA), or the likes.  Not actual testosterone!  End of story.

Absorption, metabolism, and excretion of oral testosterone in humans by mass fragmentography.
Shinohara Y, Baba S, Kasuya Y. A (1980)

A mass fragmentographic method employing stable isotopically labeled testosterone was employed to follow the time course of urinary excretion of the two main testosterone metabolites, androsterone glucuronide and etiocholanolone glucuronide, in humans after the oral administration of 20 mg testosterone-19.19.19-d3. The results indicate that the extensive metabolism of testosterone in the liver could be the reason that the orally administered testosterone appeared in the circulation only in small amounts, even though testosterone was completely absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract.

[Wagner83]

Ok so sublingual is not different from orally ingested and destroyed in the stomach.
There's some interesting feedback on it though.

[Junk Master]

Don't think you could achieve the same effect with pine pollen but testosterone complexed with Hpbdc is fairly bioavailable sublingually, and even more so intra-nasally.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/1902483

 

If you are really interested you can read about the Biogenesis provided sublingual "gummy's" provided to Ryan Braun and A-Rod.

 

http://archive.jsonl...-216852651.html

 

The MLB players like them because they are unobtrusive, quickly absorbed, good for pre-training, game day.  Plus, though not germane to the discussion at hand I believe the test propionate "gummy's" clear an athlete's system in 2-3 days.  Which really makes you wonder about the idiots who get caught!

[gamesguru]

No sorry, you can swash, plug, snort, or inject pine needle, to bypass the liver. You know, if you take things to the nth degree.

Interesting about the gummies. The hoops people will go through for an athletic edge. Unbelievable.

[limerence]

Lol. Eating pine pollen powder, like 5tbsp increases test from zinc and other nutrients and whatever. It does not have to be cycled because the testo is destroyed. Large doses of potent pine pollen tincture used sublingual/buccal have to be cycled. In less than an hour, it works very well much better than any other test product. Massive erection, mental feeling of testosterone, and can effortlessly have sex for a long time. If not cycled body obviously produce much less test and its noticeable in all ways. On days I take tincture, 2-3/week, I take 3 large doses throughout the day. One dose is much better than nothing however, I'll be ready to bang long n hard. When first using tincture I took it daily for 3-4 weeks, I guess it helped in the way a baby cycle of test would. No problem stopping

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[Wagner83]

OK when you use the tincture do you find the benefits last to through your off day?

[limerence]

Yes until the next day. Though it might also be the effects of quality sexin

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Also the tinctures on eBay are much more potent than the ones on amazon, like 2x or more potent

Edited by limerence, 08 September 2016 - 09:44 PM.

[gamesguru]

There are much better sources of zinc. And pine pollen does not contain much test, unless you're swashing and swagging bottles upon bottles of tincture.

[sativa]

My "regimen" combining daily 20-30mg boron (as borax), celery, 500mg carnitine, suma root (as well as other asian adaptogens all cycled), 3-4 egg yolks and 15mg Zinc Citrate (as part of viridian brand "clear skin" capsules) with near daily magnesium (before bed or upon waking) and milk thistle + glutamine has all resulted in heightened dominant style characteristics and perspective, in all situations.

Physical appearance has also significantly improved (I was OK before, perhaps a bit underweight, very lean, so my intent was to gain weight as muscle and strengthen all physical aspects)

Combined with mindfulness to balance and "temper" the "testosterone and alpha male effect" and channel it fluidly and intelligently it's been great!

I am 26 by the way.

Edited by sativa, 09 September 2016 - 01:48 AM.

[Wagner83]

Why so much boron?

[sativa]

The 20-30mg dose is of borax aka sodium tetraborate; not of pure boron!

I also cook with a large amount of coconut oil and liberal amounts of high quality olive oil (contains oleuropein which has beneficial testosterone effects due to its orexin properties).

Sex drive is ... well, "impeccable" (!!) and duration (without ejaculation) is at least 3 hours. I also benefit from utilising the methods detailed by Mantak Chia in his book entitled "The Multiorgasmic Man".

Edited by sativa, 11 September 2016 - 01:11 PM.

[pamojja]

The 20-30mg dose is of borax aka sodium tetraborate; not of pure boron!

 

Borax contains 11% boron. So up to 3.3 mg of boron rather a common daily dose.

[Barfly]

Not sure if it qualifies as natural but bright light therapy seems to be quite promising according to this study:

 

https://www.scienced...60918214443.htm

 

"The researchers also found that testosterone levels increased in men who had been given active light treatment. The average testosterone levels in the control group showed no significant change over the course of the treatment -- it was around 2.3 ng/ml at both the beginning and the end of the experiment. However, the group given active treatment showed an increase from around 2.1 ng/ml to 3.6 ng/ml after two weeks."

 

I was also wondering if infrared LLLT on testes would work for increasing testosterone but couldn't find any convincing studies that would make the effort worthwhile.

[yucca06]

Direct sunlight on the genitals works (but not sunburn...), and works very well (200% T increase). You'll find a few studies about this (one from 1939 if I remember well, and some more from 2010/2012). i can personally confirm this also.

 

...and LDN to normalize hormonal production through HPA axis, including T (if you're 50 or 60, you'll usually get what you had when you were 20...so if you're 18 or 25, it's not worth it) 

[gamesguru]

According to this recycled quote (below) to which it is difficult to pin down the actual citation or original source, application of UV-rays to the genitals produced a three-fold increase in DHT, while application of UV-rays to the back and shoulders produced a two-fold increase.

 

Presumably it's due to vitamin D and its local effects on testicular metabolism.  But if I can get the same effect from full-body sunbathing, I'd rather not risk indecent exposure.. for whatever reason, that area is already a few shades darker.

"When researchers gave doses of ultraviolet to subjects in Boston, USA, they found that a course of five doses, of increasing duration, each of them sufficient to produce slight reddening of the skin, could double the male hormone output. [Myerson, A., and Neustadt, R., 'Influence of Ultraviolet Irradiation upon Excretion of Sex Hormones In The Male', Endocrinology: 25; 7, 1939.] .... Some increase could be achieved whichever area of skin received the irradiation, but while exposing the back produced a doubling in hormones, exposing the skin of the genitals could cause the hormone level to triple. At this dose level they also found that five treatments was the ideal number. The effect ceased increasing with further exposure. After this experiment, the rise in hormone levels took a fortnight or more to return to normal"

 

 

As for the bright light therapy, the researcher suggests it only boosts winter levels (2.3 ng/mL) to summer baseline (3.6), by mimicking the sun's natural inhibitive effect on the pineal gland.

Professor Fagiolini explained: "The increased levels of testosterone explain the greater reported sexual satisfaction. In the Northern hemisphere, the body's Testosterone production naturally declines from November through April, and then rises steadily through the spring and summer with a peak in October. You see the effect of this in reproductive rates, with the month of June showing the highest rate of conception. The use of the light box really mimics what nature does.

[limerence]

Hello my dudes. Anyone try the pine pollen?

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[Wagner83]

Hey sweetheart,

I'd like to try the pine pollen tincture from thelostempireofherbs , last time I checked it was out of stock and I've not found sources with third party testing other than this one.

[sativa]

My aforementioned trial of various substances and foods to increase [free] testosterone was successful but I think my daily boron dose "tipped the scales" which resulted in a surge of DHT and associated eyebrow thinning due to weakened hair follicles (in the past I have noticed hair coming out easier after taking creatine for a few weeks).

So, I ceased taking boron and instead turned to balancing my hormones - reducing my free testosterone levels (temporarily until the DHT issue is remedied).

I have been using daily omega fats (I used algae based EPA + DHA), chaste berry - evenings (D2 agonist, reduces prolactin, increases progesterone AFAIK) and today I tried Dong Quai (solgar extract capsules), a useful herb that balances estrogen levels (regardless if they are high or low) amongst other things - aka female ginseng but it has uses for men too.

So far, this has been successful in reversing the surge of DHT. I'm monitoring my eyebrows and will cease this regimen when I feel its time.

I also take Gynostemma (aka Jiaogulan), magnesium, 7mg Zinc, Rhodiola standardised extract some days and a drop of indium most days which has a beneficial effect on hormone producing glands.

It is believed that indium may provide aid to the hypothalamus and pituitary glands. These two master hormone producers have the job of maintaining optimal output of hormones for the body. Once this stasis is achieved, a great many other hormone-producers become stimulated, causing a domino effect and helping retard aging and various health problems.

Edited by sativa, 28 September 2016 - 07:44 PM.

[Wagner83]

I don't think eyebrows are negatively connected with dht, bad thyroid function has been suggested to play a part.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

 which resulted in a surge of DHT and associated eyebrow thinning due to weakened hair follicles (in the past I have noticed hair coming out easier after taking creatine for a few weeks).

This is odd because androgen receptors are supposed to strengthen hair growth at the eyebrows, thickening them and enjoining them (monobrown). I've never seen anyone with high dht lose eyebrow hair. 

Boron is also very weak, it's even weaker than zinc in terms of being felt. Creatine is even weaker than boron, as I experience it.

[sativa]

I don't think eyebrows are negatively connected with dht, bad thyroid function has been suggested to play a part.

I'm aware of the thyroid link to thinning eyebrow hair (nearest the temples). As I understand, it is caused by hypothyroid (aka low thyroid) which I am certain doesn't apply to me - my metabolism is quite high amongst other things. I had hypothyroid in the past though. But...willing to entrain this possibility, are there any other subtle signs of hypo?

The eyebrow hair loss happened around 2 weeks after commencing my testosterone boosting "stack".

which resulted in a surge of DHT and associated eyebrow thinning due to weakened hair follicles (in the past I have noticed hair coming out easier after taking creatine for a few weeks).

This is odd because androgen receptors are supposed to strengthen hair growth at the eyebrows, thickening them and enjoining them (monobrown). I've never seen anyone with high dht lose eyebrow hair.

Indeed, but from my research into relationship between DHT and hair loss it seems elevated DHT can cause hair loss, in the types of follicles found in eyebrows and on scalp. A similar thing happens in women called hirsutism involving elevated testosterone and DHT. Hair loss can also occur.

DHT is thought to attach to androgen receptors on hair follicles and, through an unknown mechanism, genetically trigger the receptors to begin miniaturizing. As evidence for this, researchers have found that both plucked follicles and skin from a balding scalp contain higher levels of DHT than those from a non-balding scalp.

www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/68082.php?page=2

Boron is also very weak, it's even weaker than zinc in terms of being felt. Creatine is even weaker than boron, as I experience it.

All I can say is that it's likely you're physiology is different to mine.

When you say "felt", what are you referring to? I can feel zinc's pharmacological effects (dopamine, NMDA etc) or do you mean feeling/noticing its effects on hormones?

I can with certainty say that overall, my combination of substances and foods to elevate testosterone was successful as I noticed enhanced physique and mental and emotional attitude, all which can be related in some way shape or form to testosterone - I have a mindful approach to my thoughts behaviours and feelings which helps to contextualise what's going on.

Next time I do this, I will cycle it for a week maximum, and reduce my boron dose. I'll also follow up with DHT reducers (non synthetic works well enough for me).

Edited by sativa, 29 September 2016 - 09:05 AM.

[sativa]

Double.post

Edited by sativa, 29 September 2016 - 09:04 AM.

[gamesguru]

New leads, enzyme promoters.  Royal jelly (it was only mentioned as an anecdote so far, I went thru all 7 pages), garlic, broccoli.  Royal Jelly was studied and concluded to induce, "... acceleration of conversion from DHEA to T by six-month ingestion of RJ, resulting in improvement of erythropoiesis, glucose tolerance and mental health... acceleration of conversion from DHEA-S to T by activation of 3β-HSD2 and/or 17β-HSD3"

Garlic supplementation increases testicular testosterone and decreases plasma corticosterone in rats fed a high protein diet.
Oi Y1, Imafuku M, Shishido C, Kominato Y, Nishimura S, Iwai K. (2001)

The effects of garlic supplementation on protein metabolism were investigated by measuring testis testosterone and plasma corticosterone in rats fed diets with different protein levels. In Experiment 1, rats were fed experimental diets with different protein levels (40, 25 or 10 g/100 g casein) with or without 0.8 g/100 g garlic powder. After 28 d of feeding, testosterone contents in the testis were significantly higher and plasma corticosterone concentrations were significantly lower in rats fed 40 and 25% casein diets with garlic powder than in those fed the same diets without garlic powder. Urinary excretion of 17-ketosteroid (an index of testosterone), nitrogen balance and hepatic arginase activity were significantly higher in rats fed the 40% casein diet with garlic powder than in the 40% casein controls. In Experiment 2, the effect of diallyldisulfide (a major volatile sulfur-containing compound in garlic) on the secretion of luteinizing hormone (LH) from the pituitary gland, which regulates testosterone production in the testis, was investigated in anesthetized rats. Plasma LH concentration increased dose dependently after administration of diallyldisulfide (P < 0.01, r = 0.558). These results suggest that dietary supplementation with 0.8 g/100 g garlic alters hormones associated with protein anabolism by increasing testicular testosterone and decreasing plasma corticosterone in rats fed a high protein diet.

 

 

Additional new leads, flavonoids.

Fisetin: A Dietary Antioxidant for Health Promotion
Naghma Khan, Deeba N. Syed, Nihal Ahmad, and Hasan Mukhta (2013)

Interestingly, fisetin possesses higher affinity for the AR than dihydrotestosterone (30). We showed that fisetin interacts with the ligand-binding domain of the AR and interferes with its amino-/carboxyl-terminal interactions with subsequent reduction in receptor stability.

Effects of Apigenin on Steroidogenesis and Steroidogenic Acute Regulatory Gene Expression in Mouse Leydig Cells
Wei Li, Akhilesh K. Pandey, Xiangling Yin, Jau-Jiin Chen (2012)

Previous studies reported that the age-related decline in testosterone biosynthesis is associated with a decrease in the steroidogenic acute regulatory (StAR) protein which regulates the rate-limiting step of testosterone biosynthesis. To explore the possibility of delaying this decline using a dietary approach, we have examined the effect of a natural flavonoid, apigenin, on StAR gene expression in mouse Leydig cells. Incubation of these cells with the flavonoid enhanced cyclic AMP (cAMP)-induced steroidogenesis and StAR protein expression. The results from the analyses of StAR mRNA by reverse transcription-polymerase chain reaction and the luciferase assays of StAR promoter activity indicated that this flavonoid enhanced StAR gene expression at the level of transcription. Further studies showed that apigenin blocked the thromboxane A2 receptor and interrupted the signaling through the cyclooxygenase-2-thromboxane A synthase-thromboxane A2-receptor pathway, resulting in a reduction of DAX-1 (dosage sensitive sex reversal-adrenal hypoplasia congenita critical region on the X chromosome, gene-1) protein, a transcriptional repressor of StAR gene expression. When DAX-1 protein was reduced, the sensitivity of the Leydig cells was dramatically enhanced, with sub-threshold level of cAMP being able to induce maximal levels of StAR protein expression and steroid hormone production. The present study suggests a potential application of apigenin to improve StAR protein expression and steroidogenic sensitivity of aging Leydig cells.

 

 

As for DHT, I really think its metabolite 3α-Androstanediol is more important for the whole confidence and relaxed attitude thing.  If I'm correct, DHT is just a step in the ladder.  Potent GABA agnoist?  Best combine with ginseng and ginkgo, antagonists.

... an endogenous inhibitory androstane neurosteroid and weak androgen, and a major metabolite of dihydrotestosterone (DHT).^[1][2][3] As a neurosteroid, it acts as a potent positive allosteric modulator of the GABA_A receptor,^[4] and has been found to have rewarding,^[5][6]anxiolytic,^[7]pro-sexual,^[8] and anticonvulsant effects.^[9][10] As androgens such as testosterone and DHT are known to have many of the same effects as 3α-diol and are converted into it in vivo, it is thought that this compound may in part be responsible for said effects.^{[5][6][7][10]} Relative to its isomer 3β-androstanediol, which is a potent estrogen, 3α-androstanediol has substantially lower, though still significant affinity for the estrogen receptors, with a several-fold preference for ERβ over ERα.

 

 

And this is what I found out about broccoli and sulfurophane.  A word on 3α-HSD: "It is known to be necessary for the synthesis of the endogenous neurosteroids allopregnanolone, THDOC, and 3α-androstanediol. It is also known to catalyze the reversible conversion of 3α-androstanediol (5α-androstane-3α,17β-diol) to dihydrotestosterone (DHT) (5α-androstan-17β-ol-3-one) and vice versa."

Sulforaphane promotes murine hair growth by accelerating the degradation of dihydrotestosterone.
Sasaki M1, Shinozaki S2, Shimokado K1. (2016)

Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) causes the regression of human hair follicles in the parietal scalp, leading to androgenic alopecia (AGA). Sulforaphane (SFN) increases the expression of DHT degrading enzymes, such as 3α-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenases (3α-HSDs), and, therefore, SFN treatment may improve AGA. To determine the effects of SFN on hair growth, we administered SFN (10 mg/kg BW, IP) or vehicle (DMSO) to ob/ob mice for six weeks and examined hair regeneration and the plasma levels of testosterone and DHT. We also tested the effects of SFN on the expression of two forms of 3α-HSD, aldo-keto reductase 1c21 and dehydrogenase/reductase (SDR family) member 9, both in vitro and in vivo. SNF significantly enhanced hair regeneration in ob/ob mice. The mice treated with SFN showed lower plasma levels of testosterone and DHT than those treated with vehicle. SFN increased the mRNA and protein levels of the two forms of 3α-HSD in the liver of the mice and in cultured murine hepatocyte Hepa1c1c7 cells. These results suggest that SFN treatment increases the amount of 3α-HSDs in the liver, accelerates the degradation of blood DHT, and subsequently blocks the suppression of hair growth by DHT.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

As for DHT, I really think its metabolite 3α-Androstanediol is more important for the whole confidence and relaxed attitude thing.  If I'm correct, DHT is just a step in the ladder.  

This is interesting. I went to school with a Caucasian who was just like Mike Tyson, he had the strongly protruding cheek bones and brow ridge (hidden eyes), the very masculine, large face and the chronically cracking and high-pitched voice, as well as the GABA-A eyes. He was likewise very violent if provoked and very dominating. He had the same thing with the eyes, the mouth and everything with the way Mike Tyson moves his facial muscles. Everything matched to Mike Tyson with him except the skin color and a few other insignificant things.

 

 

Both of them look exactly as if they have very high dht. But this is the interesting part, none of them are particularly hairy at all, nor do they have any apparent hair loss, nor do they have a freakishly deep voice like someone with acromegaly or someone who has been doping excessively, they just look very masculine. Alex Jones has some of the voice features that they have and Alex Jones has supposedly been using "steroids," but I wonder which he took to get that voice.

 

Anyway. Could it be that the metabolites of dht are producing their masculine bodies while leaving out things like body hair and so on? That's an interesting topic to pursue. 

[gamesguru]

If anything, I was under the imprression that having a bit of 3α-Androstanediol gives you the cooler, more relaxed temperament or mystique, as opposed to the aggressive (insecure and almost fake) one of pure testosterone?  Since test converts to 3α-diol at an exponential rate, bodybuilders usually do not become aggressive.  In fact, you hear many reports of the opposite.  The 3α-diol keeps them in check.  However, this only applies with certain steroids, as only ones with a striking structural similarity to testosterone will undergo metabolism to DHT and subsequently to 3α-diol (so with abuse of so-called anabolic non-androgenic steroids, you may soon resemble the likes of Tyson and  Amokrane Kiane, turning violent against neighbors and storekeepers, pathologically challenging authority and exhibiting other "anti-social" traits. these would also explain their lack of hair growth. but equally likely is the idea they were natty and simply had issues with converting DHT to 3α-diol..  DHT then could have gone on unchecked, causing aggression alongside Test. okay, guys? I'm not here to judge, just to play the banjo).  I have average T, low DHT (due to dietary 5-alpha reductase inhibitors) and am frequently called pushy, rude, aggressive, even arrogant, but perhaps that's just my personality.  Haven't had a date since late July, I will accordingly check on my consumption of the dietary 5αR inhibitors and make adjustments (including more sulforaphane).  Estrogen and its metabolites may also play a contributory role in male aggression^[1], and this sort of dispels my doubts in aromatase inhibitors (at least natural ones, like mushrooms and grapeseed, which don't reduce your estrogen to nearly the same extent as something like letrozole or arimidex, at which point its pronounced absence becomes detrimental to your cartilage and joints^[2]).

 

Another idea is that maybe the GABA action long-term is counterproductive, and that it may really, in this way, cause aggression.  You could always put a block on the conversion of DHT to 3α-diol (but it's not reccommended), and that way get an idea for the quality and contribution of 3α-diol .  If taking it out of the equation really makes you less like Mike Tyson and more chilled out, one might pinpoint the GABA agonism as the culprit.  One would hope not; dropping a substance as remarkable as suforaphane is tragic.  Thankfully this seems not to be the case, with Test and DHT both causing aggression, while 3α-diol puts an end to it (at least that's true if you balance out the rapid tolerance to GABA_A agonism with an antagonist, such as ginseng or gingko).

Androgen levels and components of aggressive behavior in men.
Christiansen K, Knussmann R. (1987)

Serum concentrations of testosterone (Tser), 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT), and free testosterone (Tsal) in saliva were determined in 117 healthy young men between the ages of 20 and 30. A battery of standardized tests and projective techniques were administered simultaneously in order to measure various components of aggression, including sexual aggressiveness. All three androgens show reliable positive correlations with self-ratings of spontaneous aggression. Dominance exhibits a positive, statistically significant correlation to Tser and to DHT. In addition, DHT is negatively related to the scale restraint of aggression. These results support previous findings about Tser and point to the importance of other androgens--especially DHT--for this aspect of endocrine-affect relationships. Interest in sexual aggression yielded no significant results for Tser and DHT (Tsal shows a low positive correlation). The ratio DHT/Tser, however, correlates significantly with this component of aggression.

 

Self-administration of 3α-androstanediol increases locomotion and analgesia and decreases aggressive behavior of male hamsters
Cheryl A. Fryea, Alicia Babsona, Alicia A. Walfa (2007)

Androgens, such as testosterone (T), can have reinforcing effect, which may be due in part to actions of T's metabolite, 3α-androstanediol (3α-diol). To investigate rewarding effects of 3α-diol, gonadally intact adult male hamsters were given a two-bottle choice test to determine the amount of 3α-diol that would be self-administered over 4 days of exposure. After 2 days of habituation and 4 days of monitoring of consumption, hamsters were tested in an activity monitor and the open field (locomotion/exploration), paw lick (analgesia) and resident−intruder (aggression) tasks. Hamsters consumed significantly more 3α-diol than vehicle in the two-bottle choice test. Hamsters that were allowed to self-administer 3α-diol made significantly more beam breaks and total entries in the open field had increased latencies to pawlick, and engaged in significantly fewer attacks, than did hamsters with access to vehicle alone. Hamsters that self-administered 3α-diol had higher levels of 3α-diol in serum, hippocampus, prefrontal cortex, striatum and midbrain than did hamsters with access to vehicle alone. Together, these data suggest that 3α-diol may have rewarding effects.

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[Wagner83]

Apigenin is found in parlsey. It's definitely an interesting one!

A lot of hypothyroid symptoms are redundant with low T, afaik.

Edited by Wagner83, 30 September 2016 - 03:14 PM.