95 replies to this topic

[Dorian Grey]

News Flash, hot off the presses...  Fountain of Youth to be found in commonly available supplements!  

 

http://www.dailymail...eing-brain.html

 

B-Complex, Vitamin-C, Vitamin-D and Folic Acid reverse brain aging, damage and cell loss in just a few months.  "Their improvement was remarkable"

 

Was that pop I heard Paul Offit's head exploding?  

[albedo]

Hi Synesthesia! I did not feel to start a new thread as I am not sure how really worth is all this, thank you did so, will see comments...

FYI, I added the study in the AD research thread (hopefully not too much off-topic) together with some criticisms from LC folks to some of the past works of the same authors. Just wished to have a log to the study in the AD thread I am following.

[Dorian Grey]

Thanks albedo; I posted this a bit tongue in cheek, splashy Daily Mail headline style.  

 

With all the anti-supplement propaganda flooding the media the past couple years, the reality check supplements can and do have a place in health and longevity is refreshing to see.  

 

I'll check out the AD research thread for a more serious look at this very serious matter.  If we don't solve the Alzheimer's puzzle soon, the flood of baby boomers needing long term care will sink the economies of all the developed world.  

[sativa]

With all the anti-supplement propaganda flooding the media the past couple years, the reality check supplements can and do have a place in health and longevity is refreshing to see.

I'll check out the AD research thread for a more serious look at this very serious matter. If we don't solve the Alzheimer's puzzle soon, the flood of baby boomers needing long term care will sink the economies of all the developed world.

Who cares what the media harks on about!
But the reality is that a lot of people do care..so i agree with you haha.

Alzheimer's...isn't this just a combination of nutrition deficiencies (due to "modern" day ways of doing things), toxic build up (heavy metals, pesticides etc), autoimmune related dysfunctions (and causes such as vaccines etc) and bacterial infections?

At the core of it, the body should be able to repair itself under the right conditions and given adequate nutrition. I understand how this might go against conventional thought on this.

[Dorian Grey]

Unfortunately, the mass media has a strong influence on the guy/gal in the street.  Big Pharma is pouring big bucks into advertising, largely to influence media reporting of adverse effects from the drugs they are pushing so strongly.  Likewise, there has been a big anti-supplement push from mysterious forces aimed at getting the little guy/gal in the street away from the health food store and into their doctors office for remedies that have been "proven" safe and effective.  

 

PBS/Frontline had a show recently on supplements I was very excited to see.  Unfortunately, it turned out to be a hit-piece, with a large part of the show devoted to a hand full of people who had taken a supplement contaminated with steroids at the compounding facility the supplement supplier was using.  

 

I know my girlfriend (an RN) always goes straight to google when she hears I'm taking lecithin for instance, and googles "lecithin + danger", only to be horrified at the results she sees.  The internet has been saturated with stories of adverse effects from supplements over the past few years and it's spooking a lot of people who should know better.  Vitamin-E in particular, the most commonly deficient vitamin in the American diet has gotten crucified.  Premature death from all causes (presumably including terrorism and lightning strikes!), hemorrhage, cancer.  

 

Unfortunately, E also appears to be the best medicine for fatty liver which is epidemic (PIVENS trial), and slows progression of Alzheimer's.  Though E hasn't undergone extensive testing for Alzheimer's prevention, it appears logically, given it slows progression, it might also delay this dreadful condition.  

 

Don't know where the supplement wars will lead us in the future, but there have already been proposals to limit potency to minimum daily requirement.  Will nutrients deemed "non-essential" be banned?  Only time will tell.  

 

I didn't give you the Ill Informed by the way...  Nothing wrong with good, food based nutrition.  I just happen to prefer an unhealthy diet, and supplement it to off-set the bad dietary habits.  

Edited by synesthesia, 03 June 2016 - 09:00 PM.

[Ethic]

Show some respect and love towards all the animals who suffer and die for your craving for a longer healthier life, peace (for you reading this)

 

This is the complete multi-ingredient dietary supplement (MDS) used in the latest study (all credit goes to Jennifer A. Lemon et al. 2005):

 

Vitamin B1

Vitamin B3 (Niacin or nicotinamide)

Vitamin B6

Vitamin B12

Vitamin C

Vitamin D

Vitamin E (d-alpha tocopheryl acetate)

Acetyl L-carnitine

Alpha-lipoic acid (racemate)

Acetylsalicylic acid

Beta carotene

Bioflavonoids

Chromium picolinate

Cod liver oil

Coenzyme Q10

Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA)

Flax seed oil

Folic acid

Garlic

Ginger

Gingko biloba

Panax quinquefolium (american ginseng)

Green tea extract (50% polyphenols)

L-Glutathione

Magnesium

Melatonin

N-Acetyl cysteine

Potassium

Quercetin-3-O-rutinoside (Rutin)

Selenium

Zinc (chelated)

 

The MDS was designed to simultaneously ameliorate key processes
implicated in aging (oxidative stress, inflammatory processes, insulin resistance,
and membrane and mitochondrial deterioration). Materials were chosen
based on documented effectiveness for one or more of the targeted
features and could be safely taken orally. Dosages for the mice were reformulated
based on amounts commonly recommended for humans. ...

 

 

A multi-ingredient dietary supplement abolishes large-scale brain cell loss, improves sensory function, and prevents neuronal atrophy in aging mice. (2016)

 

Elevated DNA damage in a mouse model of oxidative stress: impacts of ionizing radiation and a protective dietary supplement. (2008)

 

Radiation-induced apoptosis in mouse lymphocytes is modified by a complex dietary supplement: the effect of genotype and gender. (2008)

 

A complex dietary supplement extends longevity of mice. (2005)

 

A dietary supplement abolishes age-related cognitive decline in transgenic mice expressing elevated free radical processes. (2003)

 

Edited by Ethic, 03 June 2016 - 11:26 PM.

[Dorian Grey]

Great Find Ethic, thanks for doing my homework for me!  

 

It's actually a beautiful looking stack and a lot of what many here have been taking and talking about for years.  

 

Thumbs down to the synthetic E, and I can live without the flax seed oil, but otherwise a largely typical supplement super-fan stack.  Interesting they threw DHEA & melatonin into the mix.  

 

It might be fun to speculate on what the most active ingredients are, and what might be less vital to this miracle pill's effectiveness.  

Edited by synesthesia, 03 June 2016 - 11:26 PM.

[Ethic]

You're welcome, I mostly agree and maybe today R-alpha-lipoic acid is a better choice, but what's the problem with flax seed oil?

 

BTW I couldn't gather any precise information on what bioflavonoids she used in 2005 (could be either this lemon, orange, grapefruit bioflavonoids blend or a pinus pinaster bark extract, 60% proanthocyanidins)

[PWAIN]

Is that aspirin I see in there? That answers everything for me. Try it without that and see how you go, or more likely don't go.

[Dorian Grey]

You're welcome, I mostly agree and maybe today R-alpha-lipoic acid is a better choice, but what's the problem with flax seed oil?

 

BTW I couldn't gather any precise information on what bioflavonoids she used in 2005 (could be either this lemon, orange, grapefruit bioflavonoids blend or a pinus pinaster bark extract, 60% proanthocyanidins)

 

Highly oxidizable oils give me the willies, particularly when they are removed from their protective seed, processed with heat and set on a shelf for a few months.  

 

I'm rather fond of beer, and probably have a fairly fatty liver which I'd prefer not turn rancid on me.  I do take PPC (polyenylphosphatidylcholine) which from what I've read may provide some of the same benefits of omega 3s regarding membrane fluidity.  

Edited by synesthesia, 04 June 2016 - 12:23 AM.

[Ethic]

Highly oxidizable oils give me the willies, particularly when they are removed from their protective seed, processed with heat and set on a shelf for a few months.  

 

 

If you mean linseed oil varnish from DIY-store, then yes, but extra virgin linseed oil, cool, airtight and protected from light is safe to use. I pour lots of it into fresh salads, couldn't live without it.

[niner]

What keeps the linseed oil from turning to varnish after it's inside you?

 

 

Show some respect and love towards all the animals who suffer and die for your craving for a longer healthier life

 

Aside from the cod liver oil, do any of those supplements come from animals?  Seems to me that should be directed toward meat eaters, people whose life choices lead to habitat destruction, etc.  Supplements are pretty low on my list of ecological errors.

[ceridwen]

I find it interesting that the above list does not include the most potent forms of those particular ingredients and yet it still seems to work.

[Ethic]

What keeps the linseed oil from turning to varnish after it's inside you?

 

I remember a television documentary about a german village having hundreds of years of flax seed tradition. They all consumed it in exceptional amounts and seemed exceptionally healthy (e.g. skin).

 

 

 

 

Show some respect and love towards all the animals who suffer and die for your craving for a longer healthier life

 

Aside from the cod liver oil, do any of those supplements come from animals?  Seems to me that should be directed toward meat eaters, people whose life choices lead to habitat destruction, etc.  Supplements are pretty low on my list of ecological errors.

 

 

Gelatine, Stearate and animal sourced active ingredients to name a few. My main concern are millions of pain feeling "model organisms" such as Mus musculus that are cursed to be related to us. Born to die by human hand, the one lucky species which may decide the fate of all others.

 

 

[sativa]

What keeps the linseed oil from turning to varnish after it's inside you?

I remember a television documentary about a german village having hundreds of years of flax seed tradition. They all consumed it in exceptional amounts and seemed exceptionally healthy (e.g. skin).

This sort of logic, for this particular issue, doesn't really work Ethic!

AFAIK, easily oxidised fats (mainly polyunsaturated ones) can undergo undesirable structural changes in vivo as a result of the bodies innate heat.

Just because a likely "very" risky practice was a tradition doesn't really give it a "clean bill of health"

Edited by sativa, 04 June 2016 - 12:45 PM.

[Ethic]

AFAIK, easily oxidised fats (mainly polyunsaturated ones) can undergo undesirable structural changes in vivo as a result of the bodies innate heat.

 

 

Interestingly in Lemon's formulation flax seed oil is the most common ingredient by weight:

 

 

Dosages were adjusted for the smaller body size of the mice and increased by a factor of 10 based on the higher gram-specific metabolic rate (and consequently faster utilization and turnover) of mice compared to humans [Calder, 1984].

 

An average mouse weighs 20g. Multiply the listed values by 5 to get an approximate [Unit]/kg for humans.

 

 

The supplement was prepared in liquid form and a 0.4ml volume was soaked into a 1 cm x 1.5 cm x 1 cm piece of bagel and allowed to dry. Each mouse received 1 piece of dried bagel with or without MDS, daily (midway through the photoperiod). The bagel pieces were rapidly eaten by the mice within 20 min, ensuring mice obtained full and equivalent doses. The formulation of the supplement has been previously published [Lemon et al., 2003, 2005] and was maintained for the duration of the study. At weaning mice were randomly assigned to either MDS supplemented or untreated group. MDS mice were treated daily from weaning throughout the lifespan of the animals.

 

So for an 70-80kg person, about 8g/day "dried" flax seed oil in antioxidant environment (not really dried?) seems to be beneficial.

 

My personal experience:

When I started flax seed oil regulary, I noticed a mild nootropic effect within a week (prior vegan diet was rich in omega6 btw) and an improvement to my psoriasis (hands). Might be due to improved cellular/organelle membranes.

 

I respect your opinions on flax seed oil, but you all miss the synergy of 60% plant omega3 slappin' yo neck (but I might be wrong ofc)

[sativa]

Aren't plant Omega 3's in a"precursor" form that need to be converted to active omega 3? Something to do with DHA, EPA and GLA...

I'm a bit rusty on this tbh.

I just use fermented cod liver oil, olive and coconut oil. Occasionally hempseed oil but this is somewhat high in PUFA's so I eat it very rarely.

Maybe I should start making ghee from goats butter again to get more omega 3 et al.

I likely have a high metabolic rate due to coconut oil consumption.

Edited by sativa, 04 June 2016 - 05:30 PM.

[pamojja]

Interestingly in Lemon's formulation flax seed oil is the most common ingredient by weight:

 

 

Dosages were adjusted for the smaller body size of the mice and increased by a factor of 10 based on the higher gram-specific metabolic rate (and consequently faster utilization and turnover) of mice compared to humans [Calder, 1984].

 

An average mouse weighs 20g. Multiply the listed values by 5 to get an approximate [Unit]/kg for humans.

 

Assuming a 70 kg human, these would be the daily doses in mgs:

 

252 Vitamin B1

252 Vitamin B3

252 Vitamin B6

252 Vitamin B12

1.260 Vitamin C

875 IU Vitamin D

504 IU Vitamin E

5.040 Acetyl l-carnitine

252 Alpha-lipoic acid

875 ASA

17.500 IU Beta carotene

1.512 Bioflavinoids

504 Chromium picolinate

1.764 IU Vitamin A, Cod liver oil

154 CoEnzyme Q10

52,5 DHEA

7.560 Flax seed oil

3,5 Folic acid

7.560 Garlic

2.520 Ginger

504 Gingko biloba

3.024 Ginseng (Canadian)

2.520 Green tea extracts

126 l-Glutathione

252 Magnesium

3,5 Melatonin
2.520 N-Actyl cysteine

126 Potassium
252 Rutin

378 Selenium

49 Zinc
 

Except the IU items 38.056 mgs per day. Quite a daily dose, about 38 capsules?

 

Would consider some doses excessively high, like the ALCAR, ASA, Beta Carotene, Flax seed oil, Green tea extracts, folic acid, NAC..

And others much too low, like the Vitamin D3, Vitamin A, Magnesium, Potassium..

Then there completely missing, like the important K2, animal based omega-3..

 

Wouldn't recommend anyone - not knowing these compounds very well - to follow such a regimen.

Edited by pamojja, 04 June 2016 - 07:39 PM.

[shifter]

Thumbs down to the synthetic E

Thumbs down to synthetic folic acid or vitamin c without bioflavinoids or iron for men and calcium without its co factors

Almost all the multis I see in the supermarket I think are rubbish at best and harmful at worst. I'm not against supplements at all, I take plenty nowadays but I think the public should do their research before grabbing a crappy centrum or others off the supermarket shelf.

[pamojja]

 

 

Quite a daily dose, about 38 capsules?

 

Thumbs down to the synthetic E

Thumbs down to synthetic folic acid or vitamin c without bioflavinoids or iron for men and calcium without its co factors

Almost all the multis I see in the supermarket I think are rubbish at best and harmful at worst. I'm not against supplements at all, I take plenty nowadays but I think the public should do their research before grabbing a crappy centrum or others off the supermarket shelf.

 

At least these mice did pretty well on such an overdose of rubbish...

[Ethic]

Aren't plant Omega 3's in a"precursor" form that need to be converted to active omega 3? Something to do with DHA, EPA and GLA...

I'm a bit rusty on this tbh.

 

To clarify this,

 

-ALA (alpha-Linolenic acid) is an omega3 in both plants and animals. And you're right, it's a precursor to both active forms EPA (Eicosapentaenoic acid) and DHA (Docosahexaenoic acid).

 

-Human body is very well able to both synthesize EPA and DHA from ALA by itself.

 

-Flax seed oil consists of 60% ALA omega3

 

-A flax-seed-vegan's EPA is as high as a fish-killer's EPA, due to homeostasis kicking in (source)

 

-A flax-seed-vegan's DHA is a bit lacking in comparison, though

 

Now I got something interesting for you, both EPA and DHA preserve our telomeres. (source)

 

-EPA preserves our telomeres about 100% better than DHA (source)

 

-Algae EPA&DHA is chemically identical to fish EPA&DHA

[shifter]

Mice aren't humans and don't live much more than 2 years let alone the 100+ we like to live. Sure I'll do just fine on Centrum and the like but what a waste of money. Do I really want to supplement on iron oxide (rust), take an overdose of 1 toxic synthetic form of vitamin E or take folic acid instead of folate where only a part of the folic acid gets metabolised into folate and the other part remains unmetabolised (what positive purpose would that serve?) Or I could do some research, spend a few more $ and get myself a high quality supplement product which will do what I pay it to do.

Centrum or other El cheapos won't kill me, but it will empty my wallet for nothing and if using that supplement and think I don't need to eat healthy foods (because I'm taking centrum which is 'complete from A to zinc' - NOT) then there is a negative impact associated with it because most of it gets pissed out anyway.

I'm not against supplements at all. I take lots. But there are some products out there I would not put in my body (even for free).

[pamojja]

Do I really want to supplement on iron oxide (rust), take an overdose of 1 toxic synthetic form of vitamin E or take folic acid instead of folate where only a part of the folic acid gets metabolised into folate and the other part remains unmetabolised (what positive purpose would that serve?) Or I could do some research, spend a few more $ and get myself a high quality supplement product which will do what I pay it to do.

 

Personally totally agree. Did search and do follow all these consideration. However, results like this do keep my bias in check, where one again can see that possible harm of something like Centrum due to these fallacies, seems indeed non-existent.
 

Centrum or other El cheapos won't kill me, but it will empty my wallet for nothing and if using that supplement and think I don't need to eat healthy foods (because I'm taking centrum which is 'complete from A to zinc' - NOT) then there is a negative impact associated with it because most of it gets pissed out anyway.

I'm not against supplements at all. I take lots. But there are some products out there I would not put in my body (even for free).

 
Again agreed. I wouldn't either. But can't follow the often repeated argument that most vitamins gets excreted anyway. All the food we take eventually also gets excreted after having done it's job. Which also couldn't be taken as if we could do away with food, if we want to stay healthy.

 

Nutrients can only supplement a diet. But if for whatever reason one is on a SAD, don't want do research papers so often conflicting - a Centrum a day is still the logical solution to avoid at least some of the widespread and completely superfluous deficiencies:

 

 

http://www.ewg.org/r...deficiencies-us

 

Nutrient from food alone, ranked by the occurrence of dietary inadequacy among adults | Percentage of dietary intakes below the estimated average requirement for a specific population* | Naturally occurring sources of nutrient** |

2-to-8-year-old children | 14-to-18-year-old girls | Adults 19 and older

Vitamin D | 81% | 98% | 95% | Fatty fish, mushrooms [vitamin D is naturally formed in the body when skin is exposed to sunlight; vitamin D is added to fortified milk]

Vitamin E | 65% | 99% | 94% | Nuts, seeds, vegetable oils, green leafy vegetables

Magnesium | 2% | 90% | 61% | Whole grains, wheat bran and wheat germ, green leafy vegetables, legumes, nuts, seeds

Vitamin A | 6% | 57% | 51% | Preformed vitamin A: liver, fatty fish, milk, eggs; provitamin A carotenoids: carrots, pumpkins, tomatoes, leafy green vegetables

Calcium | 23% | 81% | 49% | Milk, yogurt, cheese, kale, broccoli

Vitamin C | 2% | 45% | 43% | All fruits and vegetables, particularly citrus fruits and tomatoes

Vitamin B6 | 0.1% | 18% | 15% | Many foods; highest levels in fish, beef, poultry, potatoes and other starchy vegetables, and fruit other than citrus

Folate | 0.2% | 19% | 13% | Many foods; highest levels in spinach, liver, asparagus, Brussels sprouts [mandatory, standardized addition to enriched flour and flour products]

Zinc | 0.2% | 24% | 12% | Red meat, poultry, beans, nuts, some seafood, whole grains

Iron | 0.7% | 12% | 8% | Highest amounts in meat and seafood; lower levels in nuts and beans [mandatory, standardized addition to enriched flour and flour products]

Thiamin | 0.1% | 10% | 7% | Whole grain products [mandatory, standardized addition to enriched flour and flour products]

Copper | 0% | 16% | 5% | Shellfish, whole grains, beans, nuts, potatoes, organ meats (kidneys, liver)

Vitamin B12 | 0% | 7% | 4% | Animal products: fish, meat, poultry, eggs, milk

Riboflavin | 0% | 5% | 2% | Milk and dairy products, eggs, meat, green leafy vegetables, legumes [mandatory, standardized addition to enriched flour and flour products]

Niacin | 0.1% | 4% | 2% | Meat, fish, seeds and nuts, whole grains [mandatory, standardized addition to enriched flour and flour products]

Selenium | 0% | 2% | 1% | Found in different plant and animal foods; highest levels in seafood and organ meats (kidneys, liver)

These estimates only take the RDA (ridiculous daily allowance) in consideration. Not widespread gene deviations, which in up to half the population make it harder to metabolize for example folic acid or beta-carotene into active folate or Vitamin A. And other absorption and utilization issues (lke with widespread medications). So the real percentages of deficiencies can be assumed a lot higher.

[Dorian Grey]

That's a handy (and enlightening) little chart pamojja.  Good point about the RDA's too.  

 

Amazing how much chronic deficiency exists with the obesity epidemic and all.  

 

The fast food culture takes its toll on a great percentage of the population, while the anti-supplement propaganda machine and Big Pharma are alive and well.

 

A fine mess!  

[bocor]

I know a few post up it relates the human equivalent dosages of these nutrients is there any way I can double check these numbers? I'm trying to be precise here I noticed also the b 12 is over 200 mg wouldn't that really be micrograms? The other b bitamins are over 200 mg each which is fine I think also the study said ginger extract yet list at top says just ginger root?? Once again looking for a precise list as I am interested in supplementing myself thx

[sativa]

Consider too:

+ The issue of nutrient depleted soils due to intensive farming and improper fertiliser use (conventional NPK v wholesome plant nutrition which organic methods)

+ The increased requirement for certain nutrients to support detoxification systems to deal with the "onslaught" of modern day toxic ssubstance and contaminants (pesticides, xenoestrogens, heavy metals etc)

+ Also, missing importance (let alone mention) of certain minerals such as boron, manganese, silica etc

[bocor]

Wandering what this would cost per month buying individual supplements??

[pamojja]

I noticed also the b 12 is over 200 mg wouldn't that really be micrograms? The other b bitamins are over 200 mg each which is fine I think also the study said ginger extract yet list at top says just ginger root?? Once again looking for a precise list as I am interested in supplementing myself thx

 

Thanks for catching that error. Of course Vitamin B12 and selenium are both in micro gram. Too bad can't correct it anymore. The only source of this list I've got is Ethik's, but 7.56 g Garlic, 2,52 g Ginger, 0,504 g Gingko biloba and 3.024 g Ginseng are all proper doses as powdered herbs. Divide by 5 for amounts to look for in standardized extracts.

 

Wandering what this would cost per month buying individual supplements??

 

Considering my own much longer list, I would make a quick guess of about 150,- to 200,- $, much depending on the quality you're looking for, and some things more difficult to find, like for us in Europe.

 

But again, really research each compound on it's own very well, their proper doses and start with the lowest possible doses to avoid always possible adverse or allergic reactions. Then increase gradually over months and years.

Edited by pamojja, 05 June 2016 - 09:13 PM.

[kench]

I still can't get excited by a mouse study.  Human dementias progress over decades - I just can't see any mouse models being relevant. 

[normalizing]

so i guess basic vitamins, nutrients will extend life versus no vitamins or nutrients at all. very shocking!