95 replies to this topic

[pamojja]

I still can't get excited by a mouse study.  Human dementias progress over decades - I just can't see any mouse models being relevant. 

 

Me neither. However, I'm sort of conducting my own case study with a non-reversible health-condition. And the results in my case have been amazing. Now even better than described in this post.
 

Edited by pamojja, 05 June 2016 - 09:23 PM.

[Dorian Grey]

so i guess basic vitamins, nutrients will extend life versus no vitamins or nutrients at all. very shocking!

 

You'll get some vitamins & nutrients having pop-tarts for breakfast, pizza for lunch and chicken nuggets with frys for dinner.  From the looks of things though, multiple low-level deficiencies are the norm for a substantial percentage of the population.  Fix this and yes, most should have a longer healthier life.  

 

This can be done through diet alone, but unfortunately it appears this just ain't happenin' for a lot of us.  

Edited by synesthesia, 05 June 2016 - 09:27 PM.

[shifter]

I don't believe that the human body post 70 years should be frail, weak and diseased. Some of them may say that supplements are pointless because they have never taken one and are still alive, but what kind of alive?

 

You have to wonder if those people who look like they have one foot in the grave by 70 had taken  good quality supplements of vitamins, minerals and other nutrients like CoQ10 etc, would they be healthier and more productive before the end of their life? Maybe some people who die of a sudden heart attack at 40 or 50, could have lived to 90 and avoided an event they may not give a 2nd chance had they been taking supplements.

 

I saw a study years ago  'debunk' vitamins because they gave stage 4 cancer patients a synthetic form of vitamin E and predictably, the cancer was not cured. Conclusion was that vitamin supplements are a waste of money and useless. Perhaps some are, and more so when given to terminal final stage cancer patients, but if taking a good quality one throughout life, and offsetting the cost of the supplements with a better and cheaper diet (not ordering fast food or buying fizzy drinks etc as 1 burger meal far outweighs the cost of supplement use in a day or 2) I think you'll be far ahead and healthier throughout your whole life then those who live supplement free on the SAD diet

 

 

 

 

 

[normalizing]

i thought the common belief is still, if you are not deficient, dont take them

[Dorian Grey]

i thought the common belief is still, if you are not deficient, dont take them

 

Deficiencies are relative...  There's the minimum daily requirement, the recommended daily allowance, and some special circumstances like alcohol (which burns through B-Vitamins) or tobacco use (which depletes C), and iron elevation and/or a high PUFA diet which requires more E (to name a few).  

 

So long as you've got everything covered by diet, then no worries.  From pamojja's chart on page 1 and here:

 

http://www.ewg.org/r...deficiencies-us

 

It appears multiple deficiencies are quite common.  You can either live with these and hope for the best, go on a Spartan diet of widely varied raw foods to try to adjust, or supplement with pills.  I'm a meat and potatoes kind of guy so I take the pills.  

Edited by synesthesia, 06 June 2016 - 01:06 AM.

[normalizing]

well i thought the point of this is to show that combination of all those vitamins taken regularly will help all cognitive executive functions, slow down brain aging etc. but im questioning weather if you are not deficient and still take those regular they are going to change anything? it could be that brain function was bettered with adding extra nutrients you were missing prior and wont have effect otherwise. for example, i stopped with the adding of vitamins because tests showed that i actually had much greater quantities of all vitaimins than i expected. i was shocked! i havent felt any especially better or worse but my cognition is not much better at all compared to when i was 20 even though back then i was likely nutrient deficient! so what does that say, i still need to pump myself with those vitamins expecting results or its just stupid waste of money?

[Dorian Grey]

I'm surprised they even have tests for all 31 components of the supplement formula, but if you're replete in all areas that's fantastic.  

 

My only thought would be on some of the more transient areas (water solubles) that tend to vary from day to day depending on diet, but so long as your nutritionally complete in all areas every day, this protocol probably has little to offer you.  

 

I'm afraid I'm a bit lax when it comes to raw foods.  Caesar Salad with my prime rib this Friday, but this probably won't last all week.  I usually skip breakfast, have pizza for lunch at work and grab some fast food on the way home during the week.  Doubt I'd test up to par in all areas every day, so...

[normalizing]

^ not all 31,  just the most vital amines i should say. also it wasnt a test for various antioxidants or anything so im not sure in that regard. also i had really low iron levels which some say is good others say its bad so who knows. but from going through some of the interactions between vitamins, minerals and various things present in food, it seems its impossible to be balanced on all of them! they counteract each other a lot. even taking b-complex will lead to competition and leave or intake some Bs while leaving some out also depending on your genes and enzymes. so, its a novel idea to have your body stacked with all of the nutrient super power! BUT, thats impossible as they all are redistributed and extreted at different rates and times depending on so many variables. taking a multivitamin, will probably leave most of the stuff out and probably interfere with just this one nutrient you actually DO NEED!

Edited by normalizing, 06 June 2016 - 03:12 AM.

[sthira]

"Meal replacement" supplements and drinks and powdery products come and go; here's one called "Ample."

"This nutritious drink can be substituted for an entire meal"



Convenience nutrition has legs, obviously, but are these products healthy meal replacements, and are they safe for consistent consumption? Do they replace eating a healthy diet? I lean no. Nutrition Science is far too young and immature and confused. Michael Pollan wrote something like (I'm paraphrasing): modern nutrition science has yet to untangle the mysteries of a simple carrot. So why do we now presume we can reduce a wholesome diet to just a handful of nutrients, when thousands of (mostly unknown) components exist within an apple?

Nevertheless, try try try we must:

http://supplementpol...com/ample-meal/

Ample Meal – Nutritional Meal Replacement In A Bottle?

Ample Meal Review – Worth It?

Ample Meal is a complete meal drink that recently reached its funding target on Indiegogo. The gluten-free, organic meal drink wants to give your body complete nourishment. Here’s our review.

What is Ample Meal?

Ample Meal is a non-GMO, gluten-free organic meal drink designed to deliver optimal nourishment in a convenient, easy-to-drink package.

The product was launched on Indiegogo at the start of May 2016 and quickly reached its funding target. In fact, Ample Meal blew past its $50,000 funding target in just 30 hours.

We’ve reviewed plenty of other complete meal drinks before – including Soylent. One thing that makes Ample Meal different is its inclusion of probiotics and prebiotics and its use of mostly plant-based ingredients.

It also has 70% less sugar, 45% fewer carbs, and 70% more protein than “market competitors who do use GMOs and gluten”, according to a press release from the company.

The formula comes in the form of powder in a bottle. You just add water or milk, then shake and drink. It’s priced at $4.50 for the 400 calorie option and $6.00 for the 600 calorie option.

What else makes Ample Meal a popular meal in a bottle? Let’s take a look at some of its other features.

What Makes Ample Meal Different?

The makers of Ample Meal continuously emphasize their use of “superior, natural ingredients”. They use real ingredients from real foods instead of taking synthetic formulas and GMO ingredients.

The ingredients are also free of soy, gluten, added sugar, and artificial flavors.

When Ample Meal calls itself a complete meal in a bottle, it takes that title seriously. That complete meal promises to minimize inflammation and oxidative stress, maintain proper hormone balance, and maximize gut microbiome balance by giving your body everything it needs.

There are 400 calorie and 600 calorie version of Ample Meal. Here’s how the ingredients break down for each:

Fat (400cal/600cal): 22g/33g
Carbs: 26g/39g
Fiber: 7g/10g
Sugar: 2g/3g
Protein: 27g/40g
Most importantly, Ample Meal promises to taste great even though it’s not loaded with sugar or artificial sweeteners.

Benefits of Ample Meal

Ample Meal promises to be a meal in a bottle. But it also advertises specific health benefits, including all of the following:

Maintain Proper Hormone Response:

Hormonal issues like insulin and leptin resistance can lead to obesity. Ample Meal promises to help maintain healthy hormone levels using its low levels of sugar and carbohydrates. The starch and fiber in the shake also helps to slow absorption and feed healthy gut microbiome.

Control Inflammation:

When your body’s immune system recognizes an attacker, it uses inflammation to get rid of that attacker. But chronic inflammation from food isn’t a good thing: it’s connected to an increased risk of diseases like obesity, Alzheimer’s, and diabetes. With that in mind, Ample Meal is low in omega-6, sugar, and carbs. There are also minimal processed ingredients to ensure your body doesn’t have to work extra hard.

Minimize Oxidation:

Oxidation through free radicals can cause inflammation and lead to “brain fog, accelerated aging, weight gain and other sadface-inducing things”, according to the makers of Ample Meal. That’s why Ample Meal contains omega-3 fats and antioxidants. These ingredients scavenge free radicals throughout your body, fighting back against oxidation and reducing your risk of disease.

Support Microbiome Health:

Ample Meal is one of the few meal-in-a-bottle beverages that contains probiotics and prebiotics, both of which play a crucial role in your digestive system health.

Ample Meal Ingredients

Ample Meal contains a blend of dozens of natural ingredients separated into different blends. Here’s how the ingredients break down:

-Protein Blend: Pumpkin, grass-fed whey concentrate, pea, grass-fed collagen

-Lipid Blend: Coconut oil, chia seed, sunflower lecithin, algae oil, macadamia nut oil

-Carb, Prebiotic, and Fiber Blend: Tapioca, green banana, sweet potato, psyllium husk, acacia fiber, chicory root inulin

-Plant Micronutrient Blend: Organic cacao powder, organic wheat grass, organic barley grass, organic alfalfa, organic chlorella, organic spirulina

-Probiotic Blend: Lactobacillus acidophilus, plantarum, rhamnosus, paracasei, casei, salvarius; Bifidobacterium lactis, longum, and breve; and streptococcus thermophilus

Some things to note about the ingredients is that Ample Meal is not paleo, vegan, or vegetarian-friendly because it contains grass-fed collagen and whey. Aside from those ingredients, however, it’s just fruits and vegetables.

Who Makes Ample Meal?

Ample Meal was created by a guy named Connor Young. When Connor first moved to San Francisco, he was living in a hacker house with 50 people. Everyone was busy doing impactful things, but nobody really had time to take care of their nutrition.

Connor has a background and biology and nutrition. He’s studied it for most of the last 8 years. He wanted to come up with a nutritious, convenient solution. He started blogging about nutrition while giving cooking classes and nutrition lectures.

Eventually, the idea of Ample Meal was born. He started by calling it HMR, or Healthy Meal Replacement. It was basically a combination of amino acids and vials of oil and it “does not taste good”.

By September – December 2015, however, Ample Meal was getting orders throughout the Bay Area. In January 2016, Ample joined Batch 16 of the 500 Startups Accelerator program. And finally in May 2016, Ample Meal launched on Indiegogo, hitting its funding target in just 30 hours.

The company estimates its shipping date as September 2016. Ample Foods, Inc. is based at the following San Francisco address:

814 Mission St 6th Floor San Francisco, CA 94103

You can contact the company using the online form here: AmpleMeal.com/contact/

Ample Meal Pricing

In general, Ample Meal is priced at $4.50 for the 400 calorie (16 ounce) option and $6.50 for the 600 calorie (20 ounce) option. However, you can get a discount by ordering the package options, which break down like this:

6 Pack

-400 Calorie: $30
-600 Calorie: $35
12 Pack

-400 Calorie: $55
-600 Calorie: $6
30 Pack

-400 Calorie: $135
-600 Calorie: $160
60 Pack

-400 Calorie: $260
-600 Calorie: $315
1 Year Supply

-400 Calorie: $1525
-600 Calorie: $1850

All prices include shipping. The Indiegogo campaign also has a “lifetime supply” option available for $6,000. One of the lifetime supplies has already been sold, although there’s one another lifetime supply remaining.

You can also purchase a Sample Pack for $11. That Sample Pack contains one 400 calorie and one 600 calorie option.

You can currently only purchase Ample Meal from their Indiegogo page here: https://www.indiegog...in-1-minute–3#/

[normalizing]

The page you are looking for is no longer available or has been moved.

 

i wish i can get the sample, for free though. i dont get it, its powder like any other type sold all over the world wide web and in stores and then mix with your own water? wow you guys go check online for the same ingredients mix powders, they might not contain all of the same exact portions but its quite the same usually always the same ingredients give or take

Edited by normalizing, 06 June 2016 - 03:40 AM.

[sthira]

The page you are looking for is no longer available or has been moved.

i wish i can get the sample, for free though. i dont get it, its powder like any other type sold all over the world wide web and in stores and then mix with your own water? wow you guys go check online for the same ingredients mix powders, they might not contain all of the same exact portions but its quite the same usually always the same ingredients give or take

Sorry about the bum link. Here, try this: https://www.indiegog...n-1-minute--3#/

I have nothing to do with this product, I don't believe in it for longterm safety, but I think this genre is interesting and will grow as nutrition science advances.

[Dorian Grey]

My humble opinion...  We're a ways off from total quality nutrition in a pill or liquid.  Supplements simply fill in the gaps when we can't devote the time or effort to consume the wide variety of raw foods required to provide total nutrition without gaps every day.  Not perfect, but perhaps better than living with multiple chronic deficiencies and hoping for the best.  

 

The "all or nothing" arguments fall flat when we realize the hybrid of a diet as optimal as we can manage, combined with wise supplementation as "insurance" against deficiency is logically what works best.  

[sthira]

My humble opinion... We're a ways off from total quality nutrition in a pill or liquid. Supplements simply fill in the gaps when we can't devote the time or effort to consume the wide variety of raw foods required to provide total nutrition without gaps every day. Not perfect, but perhaps better than living with multiple chronic deficiencies and hoping for the best.

The "all or nothing" arguments fall flat when we realize the hybrid of a diet as optimal as we can manage, combined with wise supplementation as "insurance" against deficiency is logically what works best.

Total agreement with you here, synesthesia. Obtaining RDA each and every day is probably not possible without tracking nutrition (weighing food, entering daily data) on an app like, say, cronometer. RDA science is by no means the complete story for easy sailing to LEV, but for now RDA is the best (imho) of what nutrition science has to offer us. My own course is to meet daily RDA with a whole foods plant based diet, record it in cronometer, then target my supplementation for dietary shortfalls.

But eating nutritious meals day in, day out, week after month after year after decade is hard, dedicated work. So I totally see the need for shortcuts like multivitamins or meal replacements. But....I just don't think they offer optimal nutrition.

[sativa]

My humble opinion... We're a ways off from total quality nutrition in a pill or liquid. Supplements simply fill in the gaps when we can't devote the time or effort to consume the wide variety of raw foods required to provide total nutrition without gaps every day. Not perfect, but perhaps better than living with multiple chronic deficiencies and hoping for the best.

I totally agree too.

Liquid meal replacements will never fully mimic the vitality of a whole food meal. There are aspects of vitality present in fresh sun grown fruit and vegetables that are severely lacking in meal replacement products such as soylent and the above example.

Even refrigerating food lowers this "vitality" index! I'll find the paper link later. Its quite interesting.

...
By the by, indium is another little focused on element..its mentioned in a few posts on this forum. I use a drop every now and then with good results.

Edited by sativa, 06 June 2016 - 08:48 AM.

[Kinesis]

 

You're welcome, I mostly agree and maybe today R-alpha-lipoic acid is a better choice, but what's the problem with flax seed oil?

 

BTW I couldn't gather any precise information on what bioflavonoids she used in 2005 (could be either this lemon, orange, grapefruit bioflavonoids blend or a pinus pinaster bark extract, 60% proanthocyanidins)

 

Highly oxidizable oils give me the willies, particularly when they are removed from their protective seed, processed with heat and set on a shelf for a few months.  

 

I'm rather fond of beer, and probably have a fairly fatty liver which I'd prefer not turn rancid on me.  I do take PPC (polyenylphosphatidylcholine) which from what I've read may provide some of the same benefits of omega 3s regarding membrane fluidity.  

 

 

Plain old flax seeds are a great way to get your linolenic acid (not to be confused with lipoic acid), along with some other nice phytonutrients like amino acids, fiber and lignans.  I get some good organic flax seed, keep a jar in the fridge, and just chew up a mouthful every now and then.  They're not bad tasting at all, and the oil in its natural little protective container stays fresh in the fridge for a long time.  Dirt cheap, too, compared to paying someone to carefully extract the oil without damage and trying to keep it stable and fresh.

 

If you're worried about conversion of the linolenic acid (ALA) to and eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA), and don't want to take fish oil, there are a number of algae-based supplements on the market, such as DHA Neuromins from Source Naturals.  Algae is where the fish get theirs in the first place, except in this case it's a little more expensive to skip the middle man.  Eat flax seeds and take one of these and your omega 3's are fully covered.
 

[Kinesis]

 

Thumbs down to the synthetic E

Thumbs down to synthetic folic acid or vitamin c without bioflavinoids or iron for men and calcium without its co factors

Almost all the multis I see in the supermarket I think are rubbish at best and harmful at worst. I'm not against supplements at all, I take plenty nowadays but I think the public should do their research before grabbing a crappy centrum or others off the supermarket shelf.

 

 

And thumbs down to isolated carotenoids and tocopherols.  Unfortunately many multi supplements still use beta carotene as provitamin A and omit others such as alpha carotene, lutein, lycopene, zeaxanthin, etceteras.  As if the only utility of carotenoids was as vitamin A precursors.  Most of us are by now familiar with the infamous failure of beta carotene in large trials to reduce the rate of lung cancer; to the contrary rates increased.  http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20155614  High amounts of just one isolated carotenoid may create an imbalance.  Same goes for the vitamin E family.  Give me all four tocopherols and all four tocotrienols.  Vitamin C with the flavonoids usually found with it.  No calcium without magnesium and vice versa.  I'd much rather have a comprehensive low potency supplement than megadoses of just a few select nutrients. 

 

I'd still urge that a Centrum or One-A-Day is a lot better than nothing.  For some people that's all they'll take.  I've tried to get my elderly aunt to take supplements, but more than one pill a day is a tough sell.  Sure it could be improved on, but her diet isn't the best and I'm convinced she's better off with at least some basic coverage than with none.

Edited by Kinesis, 07 June 2016 - 07:50 PM.

[normalizing]

im actually thinking those food replacement drink products might not be such a bad idea. just a quick way to get it all in, save your teeth from the chewing and what would cost to maintain and fix them all the time. also, other positives are; losing time shopping selecting and finding, cooking HUGE TURN OFF and save time sitting on a table chewing and looking at the food like you are some kind of an animal!

[shifter]

Chewing food helps produce saliva which is an important part of the digestive process. Chewing is also good for teeth and your jaw bone/ muscles etc. Use it or lose it!

 

PS. If you are human then you ARE an animal. Meal replacements have their place (if they are healthy ones which most 'diet' ones I've seen are not!). But I wouldn't want to live my life on them

[sativa]

Chewing food helps produce saliva which is an important part of the digestive process. Chewing is also good for teeth and your jaw bone/ muscles etc. Use it or lose it!

PS. If you are human then you ARE an animal. Meal replacements have their place (if they are healthy ones which most 'diet' ones I've seen are not!). But I wouldn't want to live my life on them

Agreed. Chewing plays its important role.

Also, teeth remineralized based on the minerals they come into contact with so less chewing = less remineralization.

I love cooking. I make it quick easy and efficient. (Methodical perfectionist here) I am also a flavour addict so love to make unconventional fusion flavour combos and savour every bite.

[ceridwen]

I found chewing gum broke my teeth up leading to quite a few extractions. Any idea why this might have happened?

[normalizing]

chewing destroys teeth before dentists we had some nasty teeth even with cleaning them its impossible to prevent deterioration eventually

[sativa]

chewing destroys teeth before dentists we had some nasty teeth even with cleaning them its impossible to prevent deterioration eventually

Maybe in the west, but in traditional contexts - this isn't the case. Weston A. Price looked into why and discovered why.

[pamojja]

However, results like this do keep my bias in check, where one again can see that possible harm of something like Centrum due to these fallacies, seems indeed non-existent.

Another Multi study:

 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/27121531

CONCLUSION:

In this long-term prospective study in initially healthy men, multivitamin use for ≥20 y was associated with a lower risk of major CVD events.

 

Seems the low RDAish doses take a long time to show beneficial effects.

[sativa]

Eugh @ Centrum and any other supermarket branded multivitamin. Perhaps I'm just very "purist" (lol) or specific, but I would *never* use supermarket branded vitamins or minerals.

Mainly due to poor quality ingredients.

Also, I don't currently take a multivitamin, I use organic beetroot extract and numerous other single ingredient supplements and "add-ons" eg colloidal gold.

Edited by sativa, 08 June 2016 - 08:34 PM.

[normalizing]

Chewing food helps produce saliva which is an important part of the digestive process. Chewing is also good for teeth and your jaw bone/ muscles etc. Use it or lose it!

 

PS. If you are human then you ARE an animal. Meal replacements have their place (if they are healthy ones which most 'diet' ones I've seen are not!). But I wouldn't want to live my life on them

 

chewing is good for teeth and your jaw bone? use it or lose it? so thats why when people age they lose their teeth from all the chewing, more like use it AND lose it eh EH!

 

humans are animals? they are robots obsessed with reproducing themselves through creation of technology, thats their method of reproduction, more robots and advanced technology, our babies

[shifter]

It's like any muscle, or bone, if you don't move it around, it wastes away. Chewing stimulates saliva, which neutralises acid and it washes and cleans your teeth. It also has enzymes which help to digest food.

 

The term 'chewing gum' is pretty broad. What kind of chewing gum was it? Did it have sugar? Was it sticky? Were you quite vigorous mashing it around in your mouth? You can chew on gum for far longer then in a meal. And when you bite on gum, it generally doesn't break down and while you may think its wet, its dry. Where a large component of a lot of food is water, chewing gum isn't. And maybe randomly chewing (for no purpose from what the body can tell) makes it behavioural. Do you grind your teeth at night? Telling people they shouldn't chew because it will wear down and break their teeth is also as silly as saying you should never brush your teeth because it may wear it down too.

 

Processed foods and modern cooking techniques means these days means we don't have to eat the way our ancestors did. Rolled oats for example is far easier to chew then kernels. We also have far better hygiene and diet so our teeth are much stronger (provided you look after them)

 

Last time I checked, humans belonged to the Animal Kingdom. We are right up there on the top of the food chain but that doesn't exclude us from being counted as Animals. There are 5 kingdoms. Which one do you think we belong to then if not the animal kingdom

[ceridwen]

I never said you shouldn't chew I'm just reporting what happened to me

[sativa]

humans are animals? they are robots obsessed with reproducing themselves through creation of technology, thats their method of reproduction, more robots and advanced technology, our babies

This seems to be a purely materialistic perspective lacking in any metaphysical depth whatsoever. I digress though.

Edited by sativa, 09 June 2016 - 10:10 AM.

[normalizing]

i wonder what makes for example a lions tooth so much stronger to never wash in its lifetime and still chew tough carcass, bones and raw meat same as most animals but we cannot handle it i know they have different bacteria in the mouth and gut which helps to keep and prevent deterioration and invasion of nasty pathogens too but im just not sure if thats not possible to achieve in humans as well, some kind of new probiotic strains to help us in this department 

[sativa]

Natures way is perfect as it is. Human alternations tend to cause issues and disharmony within the system.