41 replies to this topic

[PeaceAndProsperity]

About two weeks ago I consumed Ginkgo Biloba 60mg x 6 (360mg) for two consecutive days.

On the second day I had a terrible headache (and night blindness), the same that caffeine causes.

I consumed 1g glutamine thinking it might work for the headache, and it worked for 30 or so minutes until the headache returned as before, and further glutamine consumption did nothing. Then I consumed 500mg nicotinic acid (vitamin B3) since it is a blood thinner, thinking it might help more blood pass through the obviously narrowed veins.

The nicotinic acid worked but only for about 10 minutes, and it didn't work the few hours later that I tried the same dosage.

I then tried agmatine, somewhere around 1g. That seemed to help but only for a few minutes.

 

The headache lasted for almost a week, while the night blindness still has not faded even after about two weeks.

I have tried taking taurine 1.5g yesterday and today, as well as lots of vitamin A. Neither of these have worked.

 

Night blindness means that I cannot at all, whatsoever, see in the dark. My vision in lighted areas seems more or less fine, with a tiny "darkening" of my vision.

 

Any suggestions what might have caused the night blindness? I know with absolutely certainty that it was the Ginkgo Biloba, but I am not certain about the mechanism of action of it in regards to this issue. Could it have been a brain bleeding or something?

 

 

 

[gamesguru]

it could be due to acetylcholine [1], or oxygenation [2], or constricted neck muscles affecting vein function which causes pressure to build up in your skull. or just the intense vasodilating effects, your body may get used to it. 360mg is also higher than the recommended 240mg, or even 120mg.

Edited by gamesguru, 06 June 2016 - 01:14 AM.

[normalizing]

there are tons of reported nasty side effects associated with gingko and it has been happening on this forum a lot, but thanks to people like gamesguru who claims gingko has been consumed safely for centuries with no reported ill effects, we are led to believe its actually true!

 

thanks for your report ratherbeunknown

[psychejunkie]

Gingko increases Cerebral Blood Flow (CBF) and high doses of it cause serious headaches, injuries and lesions in different part of brain; Like a stroke!

And I dont even want to talk about its Liver toxicity effects........

 

You might have developed lesions or blood leak in Visual Cortex (Occipital Lobe) region.

There are two types of Cells in Retina, Rods and Cones. One of them ony processes light and dark (Rods) and the other processes different wavelengths [Colors] (Cones), in case of low light or darkness only Cones can work properly due to their sensitivity and thats why we see everything in Black & White during the absence of bright light.

 

Some drugs cause temporarly Night Blindness by changing CBF in Visual Cortex, and I guess Gingko Biloba in high dose is one of them.

 

If you havent seen any improvment in time, trying something like Methylene Blue (in conservative doses) might help.

[BasicBiO]

there are tons of reported nasty side effects associated with gingko and it has been happening on this forum a lot, but thanks to people like gamesguru who claims gingko has been consumed safely for centuries with no reported ill effects, we are led to believe its actually true!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Every herb has some potential negative sides, but the at issue here is the OP taking a massive dose(60 mg x 6...what % extract is not given), being under the false impression that gingko is a vasoconstrictor when it is in fact a vasodialator, THEN (most impressively) taking not one but three more vasodialators until serious side effects ensued. Add to that the blood thinning effects of gingko and niacin and we're just lucky to even be having this conversation.

 

I would consult your Dr if symptoms persist and I'm thankful it wasn't more serious. Definitely learn the MOA of whatever you put into your body. Normalizing is not wrong in his criticism about safety per se, it's just that the dose, and in particular the coadministered substances, were most likely to blame. 

[fairy]

Is this too much for an infusion? Sorry, no scale.

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[normalizing]

^ why are you going in such a "natural" way? you will need a dozen of those to have even slight effect. reality is, most herbs need to be processed heavily (usually solvents) and have them in various extract forms, preferably ethanol or methanol over water extracts, and then likely branded with confirmation for quality for them to actually work.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

Every herb has some potential negative sides, but the at issue here is the OP taking a massive dose(60 mg x 6...what % extract is not given), being under the false impression that gingko is a vasoconstrictor when it is in fact a vasodialator, THEN (most impressively) taking not one but three more vasodialators until serious side effects ensued. Add to that the blood thinning effects of gingko and niacin and we're just lucky to even be having this conversation.

 

I would consult your Dr if symptoms persist and I'm thankful it wasn't more serious. Definitely learn the MOA of whatever you put into your body. Normalizing is not wrong in his criticism about safety per se, it's just that the dose, and in particular the coadministered substances, were most likely to blame. 

 

Sadly I cannot edit my main post but the Ginkgo Biloba contains as follows: 60mg standardized extract of Ginkgo Biloba with 14,4mg ginkgo flavone glycosides and 3.6mg terpene lactones.

 

As for the night blindness, it was there from the second day, the same day that I got the headache.

Edited by RatherBeUnknown, 06 June 2016 - 11:45 AM.

[gamesguru]

ginkgo is often extracted with colchicine, and inferior suppliers fail to wash this off. colchicine causes headache, and may lead to vitamin a depletion (a plausible cause for nyctalopia). inferiour suppliers also sometimes fail to remove the "ginkgolic acid", a cognitively disruptive and putative cytotoxin. be sure to look for these things on the heavy metals test for ginkgo. bacopa and tea, afaik, there's not much to worry about except the heavy metals.

Edited by gamesguru, 06 June 2016 - 01:22 PM.

[fairy]

^ why are you going in such a "natural" way? you will need a dozen of those to have even slight effect. reality is, most herbs need to be processed heavily (usually solvents) and have them in various extract forms, preferably ethanol or methanol over water extracts, and then likely branded with confirmation for quality for them to actually work.

 

Because picking them from the tree does not cost anything.

[normalizing]

fairy try collecting a dozen and read online on extraction method and then try and report

[normalizing]

ginkgo is often extracted with colchicine, and inferior suppliers fail to wash this off. colchicine causes headache, and may lead to vitamin a depletion (a plausible cause for nyctalopia). inferiour suppliers also sometimes fail to remove the "ginkgolic acid", a cognitively disruptive and putative cytotoxin. be sure to look for these things on the heavy metals test for ginkgo. bacopa and tea, afaik, there's not much to worry about except the heavy metals.

 

it is often extracted with colchicine as in always or what percent and main question is WHY? brief check on here reveals; https://en.wikipedia...hicine#Toxicity quite the sweetness! and i thought using various solvents to make herbal extracts was off putting, boy did i stumble

[gamesguru]

yeah its some scary magic behind the scenes, but the end-product is pure family fluff, if the chemist is dope. its really less intensive than the total synthesis of NSI or LSD. i think the colchicine is used by 20-50% of suppliers as a stabilizer/polymerization inhibitor, but if used properly, it is easily washed off.

 

Efficient Extraction of Ginkgolides and Bilobalide from Ginkgo biloba Leaves
Dirk Lichtblau ,† John M. Berger ,†‡ and Koji Nakanishi (2002)

An efficient and rapid protocol has been developed for extracting ginkgolides and bilobalide (terpene trilactones) from Ginkgo biloba leaves. The procedure takes advantage of the extraordinary stability of the terpene trilactone structure to a variety of chemical treatments, especially oxidation, despite the presence of multiple oxygen functions. The protocol involves boiling the aqueous extract of leaves with dilute hydrogen peroxide, extraction with ethyl acetate, washing with basic solutions, and charcoal filtration to yield an off-white powder, terpene trilactone content 60−70%. It is likely that the hydrogen peroxide treatment degrades the undesired leaf constituents that lead to intense emulsification during extractions. Further reversed-phase chromatography of the extracts with polymeric resins removes the undesirable ginkgolic acids to amounts less than 10 ppm. The extracts are suited for pure terpene trilactone preparation, enrichment of terpene trilactone content in nutraceuticals, and preparations of low-flavonoid/high-terpene trilactone controls in medicinal studies. The four ginkgolides (ginkgolides A, B, C, J) and bilobalide isolated from the extract were identical in all respects with authentic specimens.

[thebrainstore]

It does sound like it could be the extraction method. I have been taking a Gingko pill daily for 4 months now with no negative effects whatsoever. I feel that it has lowered my stress levels and given more clarity of mind and have seen it recommended for brain health by quite a number of sources. This is the first negative report I have come across. I would be very surprised if the Gingko itself would be able to affect vision for such a length of time and it's far more likely to be some unwanted residue in the product.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

Ginkgo Biloba helped me with my symptoms so it's sad that I've had this reaction.

The night blindness still persists and I get "random", very weak "headaches" during the night, sort of like if I am in the beginning of caffeine withdrawal (but I don't consume caffeine).

 

The only things I am taking (now) are glucosamine, alcar, taurine, vitamin C and boron - none of which have caused headaches before.

 

 

[Skyguy2005]

Ginkgo Biloba helped me with my symptoms so it's sad that I've had this reaction.

The night blindness still persists and I get "random", very weak "headaches" during the night, sort of like if I am in the beginning of caffeine withdrawal (but I don't consume caffeine).

 

The only things I am taking (now) are glucosamine, alcar, taurine, vitamin C and boron - none of which have caused headaches before.

 

I can only talk about my own experience. Ginkgo Biloba is herbal, I personally only use herbs and then only a few on the go at any one time, but I would eat 10x120mg Ginkgo Biloba over a day every so often, hell if the packet is several months old the effect kind of wilts so that would be 20x120mg... only negative effect is that it's perhaps a little stimulating in the evening. 

 

I would add, it's an adaptive/personal thing, I wouldn't take more than one or two starting out. I've been taking Ginkgo for years, and along with Gotu Kola it was the first herbal supplement I ever took. 

 

I use Ginkgo, Reishi, Willow, Valerian, Glucosamine and that's it. Besides LEF two per day. Firstly: Money. Secondly: Too many cooks creates confusion in the kitchen. 

 

In my experience, the feeling ill experiences have mainly been with things like vitamin E, multiminerals, amino acids, always nonherbal things. I don't know how I'd feel if I took 500mg(!!) of Nictonic Acid! 

Edited by Skyguy2005, 27 August 2016 - 01:56 PM.

[gamesguru]

I just want to highlight the possibility of taking low, infrequent doses.  Safer than large, frequent ones.  More effective than none ever.  Like 4-5 days of 150mg bacopa, 600mg ginseng, 90mg ginkgo.  That's clearly better than dong nothing, so why do all of you trigger-happy foofoos feel the need to take it to the nth degree?  You're above being modest, are you then mate?

[PeaceAndProsperity]

I just want to highlight the possibility of taking low, infrequent doses.  Safer than large, frequent ones.  More effective than none ever.  Like 4-5 days of 150mg bacopa, 600mg ginseng, 90mg ginkgo.  That's clearly better than dong nothing, so why do all of you trigger-happy foofoos feel the need to take it to the nth degree?  You're above being modest, are you then mate?

I have found that for migraine-like symptoms (hereditary) I only need a very tiny amount, like 1/10th of a single pill, and one dose can last for 3 or more days. But the ones I am using are very old, probably 1-2 years old.

[gamesguru]

Well that's only a concern for those with inherited migraine-like traits.  For the general population, most side effects cannot be felt at 12mg, let alone 90.  And since bacopa and ginseng have largely unique side effects from ginkgo, but common cognitive effects... there is only marginal synergy of side effects (bacopa sometimes causes low-grade headache), duly complimented by a profound synergy of desirable effects

Edited by gamesguru, 27 August 2016 - 05:58 PM.

[normalizing]

gamesguru i already realized you have sufficiency in brain efficiency, but let me explain to you, there will be rebound effect with your taking of those herbs you mentioned. they will only work as long as you take them for a specific number of days!  then, either you are genetically predisposed or not, you might change for the worse or just normalize to what you have been before that.  but, who cares anyway, its you to find out!

Edited by normalizing, 27 August 2016 - 08:35 PM.

[gamesguru]

What you have attempted to establish as truth is nearly completely fabricated, a monkey's shit served on a silver platter. 

 

If I was susceptible to any harm arising only from long-term consumption of herbs, it would almost certainly be related to the liver or kidneys.  In fact, brain mutations, even on brain enzymes, rarely change the way antioxidative phytochemicals work, especially rare for them to suddenly turn totally evil.

 

There will be no rebound, but rather a gradual return to baseline, on SOME parameters.  Bacopa is known to dramatically increase dendritic arborization and neural connectivity, cumulative benefits (on OTHER parameters) which persist years, even decades, after the last dose (only true of healthy and non-elderly adults. with terminal dementia, when the diesease again re-progresses, it undoes any progress. and the ginkgo and green tea MUST be taken continuously).  So put that in your pipe and smoke it, unless you're still smoking on what I schooled you with in the private messages   You know I'm on that crazy good stuff. If you walked into a bar and saw me, you would be jealous of the three women hanging on my every word, and would totally order one of whatever I'm drinking.  You probably are just in a terrible financial situation, and unable to afford the most basic of supplements, and pathetically resort to hating on that to which you are not entitled.

Edited by gamesguru, 27 August 2016 - 10:12 PM.

[normalizing]

ive tried them all stop accusing, assuming etc. you are showing little intelligence this way. you keep recommending herbs you are taking but they are stimulants and do not work for everyone and horrible for some. ive tried them and they didnt do anything really, especially bacopa. green tea is a horrible stimulant. and more likely if i saw you in a bar ill punch you in the face and then let gingko and the other herbs you are taking just increase your bleeding time as they are known to do so.

[gamesguru]

You never say what you tried, how long, or to what effect. This relelentless hatred makes it seen like you never tried any. Bacopa, for example, takes months to start working.

And that's fine. I don't take much ginkgo, so the bleeding would subside quickly, I also heal quickly, and I'm sure one of the women would have no trouble standing up to a coward like you.

[normalizing]

*sigh* so i have to have blind faith in something, spending money on for months and months in hope it works? how is bacopa even reliable at all? many people did complain of sexual problems associated with it, not sure if someone will pursue supposed cognitive benefits in long term use only to end up with other side effects like testicular pain and such as few people mentioned. how can one take it seriously, if for example, green tea and coffee work instantly?? look buddy, i have absolutely no faith in herbs that require 1-2 years of regular use or even as less as 3 months to actually probably likely maybe work! if something is reliable, has proven benefit short term and people swear it works quickly, then thats the one you choose, LOGICALLY.

 

 

edit: by accident i was browsing the forum and just now i see another complain about bacopa; http://www.longecity...-testicle-pain/

 

 

Edited by normalizing, 29 August 2016 - 04:53 PM.

[gamesguru]

Yeah, I think it affects amino acid uptake in the testes, or something alarming like that^[1].  Helps to massage them with your mouth.  But as I am lacking flexibility, it is another person's.

 

Bacopa is like the ONLY nootropic out of the four I always recommend that you have to take chronically, for months and months, to see effects.  The other three.. you see acute effects, from the FIRST day.  We're talking about ginseng, ginkgo, and tea.  When's the last time you tried all three with breakfast and again with lunch, hmm?  That's kind of an aggressive stack, but given the degree of your pessimism, it's well-justified.

[normalizing]

"56 days of treatment withdrawal, the parameters recovered to control levels"  then goes to say "without producing apparent toxic effects" what a joke. 56 days without to fully recover, thats toxicity right there being present all those 56 days. who knows what the long term potential to this is! this study didnt do follow up in 1 year or so, who knows. but also depending on how long you take it, if you take it for 1 year, how long does it take to recover? 2 years? thats toxicity. its present during this time and it doesnt go away who knows what else happens in the body not being yet studied. about massaging your balls to fix this, ask a family member and dont spew that crude crap on this family forum ktnx.

 

ok follow up question. you usually say most herbs you recommend have been used for thousand of years with no apparent side effects or problems, how come bacopa has been used for so long but just recently scientist is finding problems and side effects? this happens to any herb out there currently, newer studies might be showing some new interesting benefits while same time they show side effects which those thousand of years people using it never reported!

Edited by normalizing, 30 August 2016 - 04:59 AM.

[gamesguru]

A better question than the "follow up" one you have asked, is where you could possibly pull such bad questions from.  Do you keep mommy's hat full of rabbits by your nightstand?  Decaying rabbits?

 

Yeah, just some cute cousin I've had a crush on, totally.  But in all seriousness, it also takes about 30-60 days for the cognitive benefits to reverse, yet these are not toxcicity, so it is flawed to say because an herb induces a change which takes 56 days to reverse "that [it's] toxicity right there."  Besides, it if rendered permanently infertile your type, that should be no sweat off my back.  But you're too paranoid for supplements, and probably too much of a cunt for relationships.

 

It has relatively few side effects, those which are reported are mostly transient and benign, e.g. sleepiness and diarrhea.  It's also possible nothing was reported in the way of side effects because everyone was using a low dose (before the age of extracts, it was hard to use a large dose and probably no one tested a high dose for very long).  The fact that it was indicated for epilepsy, reduced thyroid function, general mental focus as early as 600 B.C. indicates that ancient herbalists were onto something.  Ancient herbalists were also biased and partial, and exhibited a tendency to gloss over the negatives, kind of like me, but worse.  This tendency has continued right up to the present day, even in organizations as large as Eli Lilly.  Also doubtful is that they had to put up with an onslaught of ridiculous questions, as you put me up to.  In time I will lose patience and begin to ignore you.

[normalizing]

you dont like i ask the "tough" questions, and call them ridiculous but keep answering them and you do put thought and time into it too

so dont lie, you like the questions but most importantly you just wanna pick on that annoying little kid asking too many questions while you are just trying to act like a big tough guy around the ladies (as you keep talking about them in all your posts) i see you really need to get some soon or you might end up hugging only your thousand year safe herb decorated blankets at night and in anticipation to respond to that irritating little kid in the morning, that little kid, that is in your head!

[gamesguru]

They ain't even tough.  Don't try to flatter yourself.  I answer them satisfactorily and effortlessly every time.  The only reason I look forward to your replies is that I hope to eventually dispel all your concerns, but as you have attained mastery in internet trolling (troll level: Diogenes) it seems I am destined to pour water endlessly into a leaking vase.

 

I don't pick on you, you pick on me.  I insult you, because you ask for it.

What? That's like just your opinion, man.  My only friends are herb blankets, but that doesn't stop me from getting some.  So yeah, I'm doing just fine ktnxbai

Edited by gamesguru, 30 August 2016 - 04:56 PM.

[normalizing]

back to topic, ginkgo causes headaches and various problems, and bacopa is useless with nasty side effect