28 replies to this topic

[Nate-2004]

Starting a new thread on Na-R-Alpha Lipoic Acid because the NR curated thread is veering off topic. Here are the most recent posts:

 

 

You really should forget about it... ALA is produced naturally by the body as a strong master antioxidant. However, If you supplement yourself with it you will actually decrease your own production so go to the opposite effect. In mice the supplementation decrease lifespan significantly : http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22785389
 
There is also others studies I read in the past that show its negative part..

regular ALA contains 50/50 R-ALA and S-ALA, when ALA is synthesized you'll get 50/50 mix, most of the seller can't be bothered to set them apart as it isn't cost effective. And S-ALA is literally poison.

At high concentrations, S-Lipoic acid inhibits mitochondria metabolism and the antioxidant activity of R-lipoic acid.
S-Lipoic acid is metabolized in the outer cell membrane. This may interfere with R-Lipoic acid's ability to penetrate the inner mitochondrial membrane and energy production

R-Lipoic acid is the only form of lipoic acid that is proven to significantly increase your cellular and mitochondrial antioxidant activity for preventing mitochondrial decay. This effectively attenuates the reported increase in oxidative stress with aging.R-Lipoic acid is the only form of Lipoic acid that is proven to expand total life span.

Our bodies don't produce enough of this, especially at later stages of our lifes, if as they say R-ALA is capable of increasing SIRT1 by 6 times fold, it'll be interesting some NAD+ boosting working along side

 

 

This part of the discussion is getting off topic from NR, and should probably split off into its own thread from here even though the conversation is about taking it in conjunction with NR to boost NAD or sirtuin activity further.

 

This article has a ton of references cited and explains a lot of what Black Fox is talking about above but it still does not mention anything about what Tom said regarding the decreasing of one's own production due to supplementation. This was a concern that Aubrey de Grey mentions in his book regarding endogenic antioxidants. It was Tom's comment that stopped me from buying the supplement a few days ago. Tom's comment on this however has no references so I'm not sure where he or de Grey got the info from specifically, nor do I know if it's *all* endogenic antioxidants or just some.

 

I used in the past the sodium salt of pure r lipoic acid: Na-R-Ala and my feeling was bad. After that I came across many studies that show both lifespan decrease and studies that show that we just cant compete our own endogene antioxidant. Thats also why I also stay far from Co10, and for this one also we have study that show it induces stroke in mice. So for now, my strategy is to use things that can help to increase our own production. NR, Pterostilbene, honokiol etc are all a much better strategy in my opinion

 

 

Tom I recall reading this about endogenous antioxidants in the book "Ending Aging" but I literally searched the entire PDF for the words "endogenous" and "exogenous" and it turned up nothing, the word "antioxidant" gave me several results but nothing I heard from the audio. I'm at a loss as to this vague memory and finding the source by searching "endogenous antioxidants" on scholar or Google has turned up nothing but this thread which also has no references to the original poster's assumption. Perhaps I'm searching the wrong key terms.  The studies mentioned in the article I posted above indicate that rats live longer, but when I looked at the study referenced I don't see where or how he drew that conclusion, plus I can't see the whole thing because publishers like to make people pay for thousands of various journal subscriptions just to read any reference made anywhere.

Edited by Nate-2004, 11 June 2016 - 07:25 PM.

[Tom Andre F. (ex shinobi)]

Nate, Im not sure what you mean but endogenous antioxidant are often a biomarker of what you look when using a certain compound. As you can found here http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22785389 lipoic acid decrease lifespan

 

Second, since there is 5 main category of endogenous antioxidant, I think you can consider lipoic acid as coQ10. And coQ10 was proven to not be that well safe as a supplement:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22785389 : Prolonged Intake of Coenzyme Q ₁₀ Impairs Cognitive Functions in Mice

 

or discussed here http://www.longecity...rten-your-life/

 

This is fact, from that you can choose to take supplement that are proven to benefit our body (since already produced naturally) or supplement but knowing the above. This is your choice.

[shifter]

So coq10 reduced the lifespan of a few worms. WORMS! I am going to buy a pet dog and feed it raw cacao as I heard it's good for humans so it must be good for dogs and I want my future dog to have the best! I see their must be some logic in using worms, fruit flies etc and using that data to say it must be true for humans so the vice versa must be true. Hope he'll like chocolate!

Regarding R lipoic acid I don't know why we would rely on data generated using the s form. It is not the same. In chemistry the slightest change in a structure of molecules can have vastly different effects. Use studies based on stabilised r lipoic acid or not at all I say

Edited by shifter, 11 June 2016 - 10:38 PM.

[normalizing]

tons of studies showing lipoic extends life and tom posts the one study with questionable quality of lipoic acid form and probably cause of shorten life even though it still helps cognitive function. from what i can tom had bad reaction to it and its like a mean ex gf, he bashes it.

 

shifter hah about the cacao. its amazing but dogs might die from it! is it really good for humans? not if we only did the studies on dogs it seems. actually, is cacao really good for anything besides humans?

Edited by normalizing, 12 June 2016 - 12:06 AM.

[mrkosh1]

R-alpha lipoic acid is not a breakthrough.

 

Nicotinamide Riboside is not a breakthrough.

 

 

I think they both promote health and may increase average lifespan, but I doubt they will do much to increase maximum lifespan.

 

However, from my reading I think the two could be synergistic.

 

Most importantly, ALA seems to increase the overall level of SIRT proteins. In one paper I read (I posted it to this forum) the amount of SIRT1 protein was increased six fold. ALA also changed the ratio of NAD to NADH.

 

Nicotinamide Riboside, on the other hand, increases the level of activation of the SIRT proteins. However, it doesn't increase the amount of the proteins.

 

If a combination of the two could increase the amount of protein and produce more NAD to be used by the proteins, I think we might have a serious anti-aging supplement.

 

Right now, if we want to reverse the aging process utilizing supplements rather than custom pharmaceutical drugs and genetic engineering, I think we will need to test out these combinations to see which yield the most positive results. My greatest interest in the ALA and NR combination is the potential to boost telomerase. ALA was able to increase the level of telomerase by 300% in one paper. I'm hoping that a combination of ALA and NR could increase the level even higher.

 

So has the cost of testing gene expression and NAD levels fallen enough that this community could sponsor some research?

 

 

[shifter]

But how much do you need to take to get that 300% increase? And how often do you need to 'top up'? I have a feeling my 100mg supplement once a day falls far short of what I intended when I bought it

[Tom Andre F. (ex shinobi)]

My experience using 50mg a day of Stabilized R-Lipoic Acid version was heart palpitation as reported by many users. If anyone still consider to use it I strongly advice to use biotin in the mean time as it decrease its level by competing with it.

 

The study showing a decreased in lifespan used this one wich is the common form used. This version is the one that everyone claim the benefit here (for instance on telomerase : http://www.cell.com/...47(15)00825-6).

 

http://www.sigmaaldr...ng=fr&region=FR

 

instead of the S version claimed here:

 

http://www.sigmaaldr...ng=fr&region=FR

Edited by Tom Andre F. (ex shinobi), 12 June 2016 - 09:39 AM.

[Nate-2004]

My experience using 50mg a day of Stabilized R-Lipoic Acid version was heart palpitation as reported by many users. If anyone still consider to use it I strongly advice to use biotin in the mean time as it decrease its level by competing with it.

 

The study showing a decreased in lifespan used this one wich is the common form used. This version is the one that everyone claim the benefit here (for instance on telomerase : http://www.cell.com/...47(15)00825-6).

 

http://www.sigmaaldr...ng=fr&region=FR

 

instead of the S version claimed here:

 

http://www.sigmaaldr...ng=fr&region=FR

 

The study showing decreased lifespan mentions nothing about the type of ALA used in the abstract, unless it's somewhere in the actual text of the study which is frustratingly inaccessible without paying 30 euros. If you have a link to the full text post it here.

 

That first link is broken and I'm confused about what you're trying to show us in the second two.

Edited by Nate-2004, 12 June 2016 - 01:12 PM.

[normalizing]

mrkosh if i combine the two of them, what are the things i am to notice as to any effect they might have, if you can theorize this?

[Tom Andre F. (ex shinobi)]

 

My experience using 50mg a day of Stabilized R-Lipoic Acid version was heart palpitation as reported by many users. If anyone still consider to use it I strongly advice to use biotin in the mean time as it decrease its level by competing with it.

 

The study showing a decreased in lifespan used this one wich is the common form used. This version is the one that everyone claim the benefit here (for instance on telomerase : http://www.cell.com/...47(15)00825-6).

 

http://www.sigmaaldr...ng=fr&region=FR

 

instead of the S version claimed here:

 

http://www.sigmaaldr...ng=fr&region=FR

 

The study showing decreased lifespan mentions nothing about the type of ALA used in the abstract, unless it's somewhere in the actual text of the study which is frustratingly inaccessible without paying 30 euros. If you have a link to the full text post it here.

 

That first link is broken and I'm confused about what you're trying to show us in the second two.

 

 

Its in the full PDF paper indeed in material section, they say they took this one from sigma. Sigma has the 3 alpha lipoic: the average one it seems they used, the S one that cant achieve benefits according to litterature (so they couldnt also get positive effect in mice) and sigma also has the R. I believe most studies use this average version while others have to clearly mention they used the S or the R. Im not sure the R is that much better, if anyone has real data (not marketing one) about it, please share, but its possible the benefits are better as the lifespan decrease can then be even worst. I know people will ask for reference problem is we do not have enough data to claim anything, we can only speculate. Personally, I prefer to play safe here and look for a way to increase our own production of ALA

 

Edited by Tom Andre F. (ex shinobi), 12 June 2016 - 05:29 PM.

[Nate-2004]

Do you have a link to the full PDF? 

[Tom Andre F. (ex shinobi)]

Nope you have to pay or ofc do like some of us here, use sci-hub to get it free    (google it)

[mrkosh1]

mrkosh if i combine the two of them, what are the things i am to notice as to any effect they might have, if you can theorize this?

 

Theorizing, if they have a synergistic effect, I'd say that if you are in bad health and have arthritis or other conditions that cause inflammation you may have a near term benefit. Additionally, if they synergize, you may experience drops in blood sugar. This is not a bad thing if you are like the typical American who eats way too much junk food all day long.

 

Even if they do synergize strongly and lead to a huge increase in telomerase, SIRT proteins, and the NAD needed by those proteins, the effect may take weeks or months to appear. However, they would appear much faster than with either supplement alone. I'd expect higher energy, better memory, improvement in the skin, better cardiovascular health, weight loss, etc.

 

What I really want is a drug that someone can take for a year and grow lets say ten years younger in apperance and health. The only thing that might stop this, in my opinion, is glucosepane. I don't know even if activating every anti-aging gene in the body would remove it.

[Nate-2004]

Nope you have to pay or ofc do like some of us here, use sci-hub to get it free    (google it)

 

I don't know what "ofc" is, tried looking for Sci-Hub and found it but I didn't find this study there. Would really be nice if the public could read the full text without subscribing, they really need to find some other way to monetize.

[normalizing]

nate 2004 i had problems with other blocked articles that needed payments, i just asked nicely on this forum with help and once a while someone will bypass it for me you might be lucky too. also try bluelight forums.

 

tom, how do you propose to increase ALA in us naturally? thats what lipoc acid is doing, increasing ALA naturally. its not like magic it comes inside us and works, it enhances whatever we have naturally within us

[Tom Andre F. (ex shinobi)]

 

Nope you have to pay or ofc do like some of us here, use sci-hub to get it free    (google it)

 

I don't know what "ofc" is, tried looking for Sci-Hub and found it but I didn't find this study there. Would really be nice if the public could read the full text without subscribing, they really need to find some other way to monetize.

 

 

(ofc = of course)

 

to use sci-hub you have to enter the DOI number or even the link in some case in enough.. There is nothing on sci-hub so not sure what you mean.. Its just a way to DL for free any studies..

[Nate-2004]

Yeah unfortunately this particular study (10.3233/JAD-2012-120130)  isn't on there as far as I can see from the search function on sci-hub.org. 

[Tom Andre F. (ex shinobi)]

Not sure what you mean, for me its working..

 

Here is the part they dont mention what form of alpha lipoic acid was used but at least from where it was purchased:

 

Alpha-lipoic acid was purchased from Sigma-Aldrich (St. Louis, MO)

 

 

Since sigma sells the 3 and because they do not specify wich form it seems clear they used the "normal" one

 

 

[Nate-2004]

Not sure what you mean, for me its working..

 

Here is the part they dont mention what form of alpha lipoic acid was used but at least from where it was purchased:

 

Alpha-lipoic acid was purchased from Sigma-Aldrich (St. Louis, MO)

 

 

Since sigma sells the 3 and because they do not specify wich form it seems clear they used the "normal" one

 

If it's working for you then I'm not using the sci-hub.org site properly. I'm using their google search and the only thing I get linked back to is both the nih.gov reference and the paywall at IOS press.

 

Off topic side note: Speaking of paywalls, here are two great articles on sci-hub and also why paywalls are f'ing bulls**t.

Edited by Nate-2004, 13 June 2016 - 04:57 PM.

[Nate-2004]

Here's the quote from the study you mention:

 

Alpha-lipoic acid was purchased from Sigma-Aldrich (St. Louis, MO). Mice received alpha-lipoic acid (100 mg/kg/day) subcutaneously starting at 11 months of age until they were deceased. In study 2, we gave 40 18 month-old SAMP8 mice either alpha lipoic acid or vehicle for 4 weeks. After 2 weeks of treatment, the mice were tested in object recognition or Barnes maze. At the end of behavior testing, mice were sacrificed and brains were analyzed for measures of oxidative stress.

 

There is absolutely no mention or specification anywhere in the study of whether they used S-Lipoic, R-Lipoic or the mix. There's no way to know from this study whether R-ALA shortens lifespans in humans, let alone lifespans in mice.

Edited by Nate-2004, 13 June 2016 - 05:33 PM.

[Tom Andre F. (ex shinobi)]

I already replied to that:

 

 

My experience using 50mg a day of Stabilized R-Lipoic Acid version was heart palpitation as reported by many users. If anyone still consider to use it I strongly advice to use biotin in the mean time as it decrease its level by competing with it.

 

The study showing a decreased in lifespan used this one wich is the common form used. This version is the one that everyone claim the benefit here (for instance on telomerase : http://www.cell.com/...47(15)00825-6).

 

http://www.sigmaaldr...ng=fr&region=FR

 

instead of the S version claimed here:

 

http://www.sigmaaldr...ng=fr&region=FR

 

Not sure what you mean, for me its working..

 

Here is the part they dont mention what form of alpha lipoic acid was used but at least from where it was purchased:

 

Alpha-lipoic acid was purchased from Sigma-Aldrich (St. Louis, MO)

 

 

Since sigma sells the 3 and because they do not specify wich form it seems clear they used the "normal" one

 

[Black Fox]

As far as I can tell they used the "most of common " one (50/50 mix)otherwise they would've mentioned it, the problem with regular one is that it contains 50% of the S-form which is synthetic and therefore unrecognizable by the human body, not only interfere the ability of the R-form to penetrate the inner membrane of the mitochondria as the S-form metabolize in the outer one but at high dosage it inhibits mitochondria metabolism ... That might had influenced in the life span of the mice

Tom why are you so concerned about R-ALA with all the studies behind it and not over Beta-lapachone with so little studies behind it ?

[Tom Andre F. (ex shinobi)]

So the average common form wich is used in almost all studies about ALA is good for memory enhancement, PGC1a etc but bad for lifespan right ? So you think the R version will just take the good part and also remove the lifespan decrease ? I cant believe that sorry. But mitigate the result: possible.

 

For my concern its due to 2 reasons:

 

1/ my own and some others experiences using stabilized R-ALA: brain fog and heart palpitation at 50mg / day. I never got that bad feeling with any others supplements. Femal scientist also expected bad effect if you read her on the other NR topic.

2/ vivo study: so far the only vivo study that used the average version that most study used show an impressive lifespan decrease while beta-lapachone show better result in lifespan increase even above the CR group. Stabilized R ALA is on the market since 2002 now (https://geronova.com...-acid-timeline/)

 

My speculation is that we shouldnt supplement us with antioxidant the body already synthesis and since ALA is a strong chelator, its also possible its also chelating good minerals we need and lead to damage on the long run

 

From that I made my choice to not touch again ALA and instead look for more promising molecules such as oxaloacetate, beta-lapachone, spermidine, pterostilbene..

 

Edited by Tom Andre F. (ex shinobi), 13 June 2016 - 07:40 PM.

[Nate-2004]

 

I already replied to that:

 

 

My experience using 50mg a day of Stabilized R-Lipoic Acid version was heart palpitation as reported by many users. If anyone still consider to use it I strongly advice to use biotin in the mean time as it decrease its level by competing with it.

 

The study showing a decreased in lifespan used this one wich is the common form used. This version is the one that everyone claim the benefit here (for instance on telomerase : http://www.cell.com/...47(15)00825-6).

 

http://www.sigmaaldr...ng=fr&region=FR

 

instead of the S version claimed here:

 

http://www.sigmaaldr...ng=fr&region=FR

 

Not sure what you mean, for me its working..

 

Here is the part they dont mention what form of alpha lipoic acid was used but at least from where it was purchased:

 

Alpha-lipoic acid was purchased from Sigma-Aldrich (St. Louis, MO)

 

 

Since sigma sells the 3 and because they do not specify wich form it seems clear they used the "normal" one

 

 

This wasn't exactly a reply to what I was saying. Maybe this is a language barrier issue I don't know but first off the cell link is broken, it goes to a missing page. Second off the second two links go a page with a description of alpha-lipoic acid, but nothing on those pages seem to relate to anything you're talking about. I really have no idea what you're trying to draw my attention to on those.

 

The fact remains that

 

1) This experiment was on mice, not humans. Still baffled as to why, since it's available over the counter to humans. Why experiment on animals with something available for human consumption?

2) "The common form" isn't mentioned in the publication, nor is any specific form. We have no idea what they used other than the company they bought it from, which sells all three types.  

3) If they were using S-Lipoic Acid in the mix or by itself then it could have greatly interfered or caused negative outcomes.

4) There aren't any replicated publications or results (naturally, we can't have that in the scientific community that would be too productive) producing the same outcomes with specifically R-ALA.

5) Your anecdotal experience is really just one data point, you could have been reacting to anything, perhaps the way they process it or something unrelated. I saw Female Scientist's response, she mentioned a crash but not the symptoms you talk about.

 

All that said, I'm still waiting on the more important thing and that's cited evidence that (like testosterone) taking an endogenous antioxidant causes your body to stop producing said antioxidant on its own. I'm still scouring the internet for that and I've yet to find it. I agree that it'd be nice if we can find some means of encouraging more production of that antioxidant on our own but we've yet to find anything like that for testosterone much less specific antioxidants like R-Lipoic.

Edited by Nate-2004, 13 June 2016 - 11:24 PM.

[Tom Andre F. (ex shinobi)]

Indeed Im not sure you read me well (or my english is maybe just not good enough ? As you failed to understand how to use sci-hub as well). But I will just continue to follow this topic just to get your feeling under this product. Let us know your experience then. You should use this one: http://www.swansonvi...-100-mg-60-caps ( Bio-Enhanced® Na-RALA (sodium R-lipoic acid)

Edited by Tom Andre F. (ex shinobi), 13 June 2016 - 11:39 PM.

[joelcairo]

Here is a working link, I hope, to the Cell Reports article. It looks like the forum software interpreted some punctuation as being part of the URL:

 

http://www.cell.com/...1247(15)00825-6

 

Edited by joelcairo, 14 June 2016 - 01:49 AM.

[mrkosh1]

I will be receiving a bottle of Na-R-Ala soon. I will be taking one dose each morning of 240mg of Na-R-Ala. Since I am taking no other supplements, I'll report back about what I experience.

 

If I finish this bottle with no negative effects and at least some beneficial effects, I'll try to order another bottle and try to scrape up the funds to buy a bottle of Nicotinamide Riboside.

 

My goals are:

 

1) Control of blood sugar swings.

 

2) Weight Loss

 

3) More Energy

 

4) A cure of the inflammation in my right arm.

 

5) An improvement in skin -- mainly a reduction in the very beginnings of age spots.

 

I'm going to take pictures of the back of both hands to see if the age spots decrease over the course of the two months I'm on this supplement.

 

I will also be going out and buying a bottle of biotin to supplement with.

[Nate-2004]

To test synergy with NR I'll be adding this to my stack. I'll do the same but in my case I don't have age spots. I do have a pic from 3 months back, not sure anything's changed yet.

[normalizing]

mrkosh buy the jarrow formula one it has biotin combined with ala already so its better than buying biotin separately.

 

btw i did the normal ala few times with noticeable effects on hangovers versus ZERO effect on the r-type which is supposedly much more reliant and better. im questioning this now...