54 replies to this topic

[Gordo]

 

 

Why can't there be BAT under head's skin tissue, like in others bodys skin areas? I would understand there will be less proportionally than in other areas, but not at all?

 

Substantial quantities of brown adipose tissue can be detected in adult humans using positron-emission tomography, especially when the individuals are exposed to cold temperatures. Most of this tissue in adults is located in the lower neck and supraclavicular region.

→ source (external link)

 

Here are some pictures.

 

BAT anchors to bone like muscle does, but the skull/head is mostly skin and bone on the outside, not much fat. 

 

 

Edited by Gordo, 24 May 2017 - 05:46 PM.

[Brian]

True, however keep in mind besides BAT there is also "beige fat" found closer to the surface of the skin. And on top of that there are changes that occur in muscles after CE that allow them to generate heat without shivering (sarcolipin is one example).

[Gordo]

Uric acid and glutathione levels during short-term whole body cold exposure.

 

Siems WG, van Kuijk FJ, Maass R, Brenke R.

full

Ten healthy subjects who swim regularly in ice-cold water during the winter (winter swimming), were evaluated before and after this short-term whole body exposure. A drastic decrease in plasma uric acid concentration was observed during and following the exposure to the cold stimulus. We hypothesize that the uric acid decrease can be caused by its consumption after formation of oxygen radicals. In addition, the erythrocytic level of oxidized glutathione and the ratio of oxidized glutathione/total glutathione also increased following cold exposure, which supports this hypothesis. Furthermore, the baseline concentration of reduced glutathione was increased and the concentration of oxidized glutathione was decreased in the erythrocytes of winter swimmers as compared to those of non-winter swimmers. This can be viewed as an adaptation to repeated oxidative stress, and is postulated as mechanism for body hardening. Hardening is the exposure to a natural, e.g., thermal stimulus, resulting in an increased tolerance to stress, e.g., diseases. Exposure to repeated intensive short-term cold stimuli is often applied in hydrotherapy, which is used in physical medicine for hardening.

 

 

It looks like cold exposure acts as an exercise for the defense system against oxidative stress. You lose some of your endogenous antioxidants, but improve your overall capacity in the long run. 

[Nate-2004]

So there's a lot of talk about cryotherapy, ice baths, cold showers and minimal clothing walks in the cold. I know one study showed improved BAT after 6 hours in 16c temperature outdoors. Others showed similar improvements in 10c weather for 2 hours. What about 0c or colder? How long would one need to spend at these dry air temps?  The cryotherapy is super cooled air below -100c which is insane, but you only spend a couple of minutes in it. It's also very expensive too. $327 for 10 sessions in most cases. I can't afford that.

 

What if I spent 10 mins outside in -2c weather? I'd love to know what the formula is for time spent vs temperature.

[Gordo]

So there's a lot of talk about cryotherapy, ice baths, cold showers and minimal clothing walks in the cold. I know one study showed improved BAT after 6 hours in 16c temperature outdoors. Others showed similar improvements in 10c weather for 2 hours. What about 0c or colder? How long would one need to spend at these dry air temps?  The cryotherapy is super cooled air below -100c which is insane, but you only spend a couple of minutes in it. It's also very expensive too. $327 for 10 sessions in most cases. I can't afford that.

 

What if I spent 10 mins outside in -2c weather? I'd love to know what the formula is for time spent vs temperature.

 

I think the cryotherapy thing is kind of a gimmick and probably not worth the expense.  You can do cold exposure for very little expense, for example cold showers, cold baths, or just using some zip lock bags full of ice cubes, applied to the supraclavicular area:

If you wanted something better than a zip lock bag, try these.

And yes, cold outdoor air exposure is another good option.  Going for walks on cold days without excessive clothing is beneficial.

But as for your precise question - what is the benefit of X minutes at Y temperature... Obviously this varies from person to person, the more BAT you have, the greater the benefits of activating it, and the more cold exposure you get, the more you will build up BAT, so the benefits may actually change (increase) over time.  Some people have very little BAT and may have a hard time building more up, so the benefits for those people may be more limited.  There are countless experiments described in pubmed with cold exposure and the results, so you can probably get some ideas from reviewing what has been published (many of those studies are linked in this thread and its associated thread on the CR Society forum).  The "Cool Fat Burner" guy has also done a lot of useful experiments, the ones using indirect calorimetry measurements may especially interest you: https://coolfatburne...metabolism-lab/

You'd have to guess what the equivalent of wearing a cool fat burner would be in terms of outdoor air exposure, perhaps if you were outside in near freezing temps wearing light clothing you'd probably be getting similar cold exposure (you want to be just above whatever exposure level causes you to shiver, in other words, put on enough clothing so you don't shiver, but not so much that you don't feel very cold at all). 

Or you could just get a cooling vest, they aren't really that expensive, then you can do cooling year round.

If you want to measure your own progress but don't have access to special lab equipment or don't want to pay for blood tests, I think blood sugar measurement is a reasonable metric to use, and glucose monitors are inexpensive (I've seen some at Walmart there were free after mail in rebate too).  If your CE practice is working, you should see an improvement in blood sugar levels.

[Nate-2004]

From what I gathered in the videos I saw posted earlier, some of what Rhonda Patrick has said, etc, I thought shivering was something that was experienced at first then stops as your mitochondria begin to produce heat from fat. So you're saying just above the temp I'd be shivering which is confusing because I thought anything below that was the temp since with frequent or long exposure to that low temp you'd stop shivering. 

 

I guess this isn't as simple as 20 mins at 80c in the sauna for heat shock type of thing. That's easy to do and follow compared to the cold shock side of things.

 

I'm wondering if you can be both cold adapted and heat adapted at the same time. I use the sauna every time I'm at the gym after a workout.

Edited by Nate-2004, 23 November 2018 - 03:59 PM.

[Gordo]

Well as long as it stops, it’s probably fine, but in general shivering is a sign that you’ve gone too far, and things could lead to hypothermia from there. You want your brown fat to warm you up enough that you don’t need to shiver.

[Nate-2004]

Hmm, the guy in that video seems to shiver a lot with his. I dunno. How do you keep an eye on core body temp? 2 hours with a cold vest like he has sounds like ages of discomfort. Not like 20 mins in a sauna. 20 mins is a cinch, 2 hours of freezing? Eeep. Right now the temp outside is 25F, I could go the cheap route and sit outside with gloves, wool shoes and cozy bose headphones and watch shows on my computer I guess but man, 2 hours... lol

 

The guy in the video was doing it for about five months before reaching that 3000+ BMR, I don't know how true that all is but it sounded like he was spending almost every day if not every single day for hours in that cold vest. Drinking ice water. Etc.

Edited by Nate-2004, 24 November 2018 - 06:23 AM.

[Gordo]

Hmm, the guy in that video seems to shiver a lot with his. I dunno. How do you keep an eye on core body temp? 2 hours with a cold vest like he has sounds like ages of discomfort. Not like 20 mins in a sauna. 20 mins is a cinch, 2 hours of freezing? Eeep. Right now the temp outside is 25F, I could go the cheap route and sit outside with gloves, wool shoes and cozy bose headphones and watch shows on my computer I guess but man, 2 hours... lol

 

The guy in the video was doing it for about five months before reaching that 3000+ BMR, I don't know how true that all is but it sounded like he was spending almost every day if not every single day for hours in that cold vest. Drinking ice water. Etc.

 

I think the cool fat burner is excessive for most people, this is why I don't own one (my cooling vest phase changes at 55F which I think is a very good temp). But I really appreciate all the work and science that guy has done.  I get the sense that guy doesn't eat well (in other videos he talks about binging on junk food) so he is probably in a constant battle with excessive calorie intake, and he uses cooling as a way to combat that.  For someone who eats healthy and is not overweight, there is no need to do cold exposure like that guy.  For someone that needs to lose a lot of weight, extreme cold exposure + lower calorie intake + exercise would probably get the job done in the fastest way possible - but really any one of those 3 will also work.

 

You can take your temp sublingually or by arm pit or ear to keep an eye on core body temp (if you are drinking ice water, sublingual method may be worthless).

[Nate-2004]

I think "eating well" is relative. I try to eat well, broccoli smoothies, high fiber vegetarian burritos, all the things really, but I also have a weakness for cookies and ice cream. I try to minimize that best I can. From what some of the scientists in the field like Judith Campisi have said,nutrition  is surprisingly lower on the list for keeping inflammation down, when compared to exercise and other stressors. Just trying to find the easiest route to achieving the benefits of cold stress. Your cooling vest seems good but it's about the same price range as his thing which I think gets you colder. For now I'll have to rely on weather and cold showers but I might actually get his thing and try to use that often as possible. Seems a lot less of a hassle and a lot less painful and tedious than an ice bath.

 

Plus my roommate has schizophrenia, he might find cold and heat stress beneficial too.

 

[Kalliste]

I want to commend the very good N=1 posting in this thread. That level of seriousness is great.

 

I want to add that ice baths and cold showers gave me symtoms that a doctor quickly named as a classic case of  "Chronic Prostatitis" a year ago. 

The symtoms have since resolved mostly, though there is some lingering discomfort in this region. 

 

I began developing symtoms after taking daily 3-5min ice baths in my tub and just getting dressed and spending another hour or so indoor gradually warming back up.

[Nate-2004]

I want to commend the very good N=1 posting in this thread. That level of seriousness is great.

 

I want to add that ice baths and cold showers gave me symtoms that a doctor quickly named as a classic case of  "Chronic Prostatitis" a year ago. 

The symtoms have since resolved mostly, though there is some lingering discomfort in this region. 

 

I began developing symtoms after taking daily 3-5min ice baths in my tub and just getting dressed and spending another hour or so indoor gradually warming back up.

 

I wonder why prostate inflammation would begin after ice baths. How do you know for sure there wasn't another confounding variable? Just strange reaction is all.

[Kalliste]

I wonder why prostate inflammation would begin after ice baths. How do you know for sure there wasn't another confounding variable? Just strange reaction is all.

 

I experienced a very direct relationship between those two activities. I was taking same supplements, eating same diet, did not concurrently try anything exotic.

My problems were not as severe as those described below but very similar, maybe a milder case. 

 

 

 

Send to

 

 

 

 

Scand J Urol Nephrol. 2007;41(5):430-5. Epub 2007 May 9.

Chronic abacterial prostatitis and cold exposure: an explorative study.

Hedelin H1, Jonsson K.

Author information

 

Abstract

OBJECTIVE:

Chronic abacterial prostatitis/pelvic pain syndrome (CP/CPPS) is characterized by pain, voiding and sexual dysfunction persisting fo r> 3 months. The symptoms tend to occur in relapses of varying length. To evaluate what causes a relapse and what precautions patients with CP/CPPS undertake to avoid a relapse and/or aggravation of symptoms, individual semi-structured interviews were performed.

MATERIAL AND METHODS:

Information was obtained from semi-structured in-depth interviews with 10 selected men with CP/CPPS (mean age 44 years; 30-62 years). The interviews were transcribed and analysed according to Girorgi's phenomenological method as modified by Malterud.

RESULTS:

CP/CPPS tended to start in connection with a specific event involving cold exposure, suggesting cold as an initiating stimulus for CP/CPPS. The informants also reported that cold exposure caused aggravation of symptoms and provoked their relapse. Sitting on cold objects, spending time in cold, damp or windy surroundings and walking on a cold floor were provocative and thus were avoided. The exposure did not have to be either prolonged or intense. Heat applied to the perineum, as well as spending time in a warmer climate, gave relief from symptoms.

CONCLUSIONS:

It appears that cold is one of the factors that can trigger a process resulting in CP/CPPS. The fact that cold also causes aggravation of symptoms and can initiate a relapse was evident, as was the fact that symptoms could be relieved by heat. The connection between cold and symptom aggravation is well known among clinicians but has not previously been studied in a systematic way. The fact that cold, in a susceptible man, can initiate a process resulting in CP/CPSS has not been reported before. Studies aimed at elucidating the mechanisms behind this phenomenon are warranted. Reflex vasoconstriction in a susceptible individual is a possible cause.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/17853032

[Nate-2004]

You may be better off sticking with sauna instead. Wonder if certain haplogroups don't respond as well to cold shock as others. Do you know which one you're in?

Edited by Nate-2004, 26 November 2018 - 06:29 PM.

[ceridwen]

Ursula

[Kalliste]

You may be better off sticking with sauna instead. Wonder if certain haplogroups don't respond as well to cold shock as others. Do you know which one you're in?

 

23andme result indicate my ancestors lived in Scandinavia for long time so I should have some cold adapted genetics.

But my diet is not perfect, maybe I would not have had this problem if I followed a 100% ketogenic diet. 

 

I donate blood, take mitoQ, glucosamine, cycles of aspirin, curcumin etc so inflammation should not come so easy. 

[Nate-2004]

23andme result indicate my ancestors lived in Scandinavia for long time so I should have some cold adapted genetics.

But my diet is not perfect, maybe I would not have had this problem if I followed a 100% ketogenic diet. 

 

I donate blood, take mitoQ, glucosamine, cycles of aspirin, curcumin etc so inflammation should not come so easy. 

 

Really hard to say man, it's one of those things we'll know more about very soon, but not now. A lot of my friends have a good percentage of scandinavian in them but they're all in a completely different haplogroup. We're all white celtic types and yet not even from the same line. T1a1, which is my haplogroup, goes back 7000 years. That's pre-written language and barely post agricultural. I have a good hunch it's going to play a very strong role in why we're all reacting so differently to the same drugs and stimuli. Though I think this is moreso the case maybe with specific drugs than it is with stimuli like exercise, heat stress and cold stress. We all share a common ancestor with mice and the cellular response to these stresses surely date back to before that ancestor, possibly back to the first multicellular organism. So I could be wrong here. There are very few and far between cases where a person may not see any of the net benefits of exercise, I would presume the same is true for heat and cold.

Edited by Nate-2004, 27 November 2018 - 06:15 PM.

[Gordo]

I know from experience that cold exposure can definitely aggravate preexisting conditions/problems. If my immune system is already fighting something, I find that I cannot tolerate serious cold exposure at all. Sometimes I don’t realize my body is fighting something UNTIL I do the cold exposure. I’m a little doubtful that cold exposure could CAUSE prostatitis but I can see how it could aggrevate a preexisting condition. Causes are described here: https://www.healthli...statitis#causes

[Gordo]

https://www.cell.com...9nOJZO8vs3AEZmk

Secretin: An Old Hormone with a Burning Secret

Most theories of meal-induced thermogenesis involve a gut-brain-brown adipose tissue axis driving sympathetic nervous system-mediated thermogenesis. Li et al. demonstrate that secretin released by the gut after a meal binds to abundant receptors in brown adipose tissue to stimulate thermogenesis, inhibiting food intake and thereby suggesting a novel role for secretin regulating satiety.

[shp5]

I know from experience that cold exposure can definitely aggravate preexisting conditions/problems. If my immune system is already fighting something, I find that I cannot tolerate serious cold exposure at all. Sometimes I don’t realize my body is fighting something UNTIL I do the cold exposure. I’m a little doubtful that cold exposure could CAUSE prostatitis but I can see how it could aggrevate a preexisting condition. Causes are described here: https://www.healthli...statitis#causes

 

I was the same. Wind was the worst. My experiences:

I started with the james bond shower (normal shower with cold shower afterwards) years ago -it was suggested on this forum - and my susceptibility to colds has radically improved since. Also, I weened off socks while sleeping (though I still can't go naked), and woolen socks at home. I wear sandals whenever possible and go barefoot as often as I can tolerate.

The james-bond shower should be weened-on slowly with a lukewarm shower afterwards, and one should have some cordyceps (or whatever helps you) ready for the case you're overdoing it.

 

 

Isn't it interesting how so many of the foods linked to BAT activation have for many years (centuries) been noted for their health promoting effects?  BAT is starting to look like some kind of unifying tour de force for exceptional health and longevity.

 

Secretin is secreted by the duodenum. According to my very incomplete knowledge, what TCM calls "the spleen" is mostly a function of the duodenum, and has (together with kidney-yang) an important part in cold resistance. Gonna start treating the duodenum more in my cold-susceptible patients.

Edited by shp5, 10 December 2018 - 10:26 AM.

[Nate-2004]

I'm an engineer but not the type of engineer that is willing to make my own cold vest so I ordered the one off that guy's site. Gonna start doing his routine soft core for an hour a day and then a little more hardcore over the next several months. I wish I had a machine to measure my BMR but alas I shall have to just see what happens.

[sthira]

I wonder why human hibernation isn't a thing. NASA appears to have abandoned putting astronauts down. Wiki on human hibernation doesn't offer much -- two references ages ago. Seems to me like there's some there there with regard to human hibernation, then sweet resurrection into the singularity.

If you could go into mindless floating hibernation, would you? For how long? I mean, assuming they could get your ass alive and walking around again...

If I could be put into some silver space-age looking egg pod, injected, paralyzed, doped into dreamless nothingness for the next five months, I'd do it. Yep. In fact, I'd go longterm -- a year, five years, 50 years... Were we all born too soon?

[Gordo]

If I could be put into some silver space-age looking egg pod, injected, paralyzed, doped into dreamless nothingness for the next five months, I'd do it. Yep. In fact, I'd go longterm -- a year, five years, 50 years... Were we all born too soon?

 

It seems like a lot of people were studying human hibernation, not sure about current research, see: 

Race to be first to ‘hibernate’ human beings

The article even cites a case of a man who was frozen for nearly a month.

 

 

I'd go into a hibernation pod for a few decades if it was proven safe and it put a pause on aging.  Wouldn't want to be an early pioneer though

It can be frustrating being able to see where things are likely heading, but knowing you are unlikely to make it to that potentially amazing future where virtual reality worlds will be stunning and near unlimited, artificial intelligence helps solve most of the world's problems, machines make work "optional" and standards of living unparalleled in history while also protecting the planet and developing renewable energy sources, and hopefully even solving the aging problem and all related disease.  Then again a meteor will likely one day hit the planet and wipe us out, and if we can avoid that, eventually our sun will fry the whole planet to a crisp, that's guaranteed.  It's always strange to think sometimes about the fact that everything we build and try to protect, all life on the planet, will one day be gone, yay mortal sun, all good things must have an ending, but here's to hope that what is gone, will be made new again.

[shp5]

Resveratrol increases brown adipose tissue thermogenesis markers by increasing SIRT1 and energy expenditure and decreasing fat accumulation in adipose tissue of mice fed a standard diet

 

Adipose tissue is central to the regulation of energy balance. Two functionally different fat pads are present in mammals: white adipose tissue, the primary site of triglyceride storage, and brown adipose tissue (BAT), which is specialized in heat production. In this context, new strategies capable of modulating the development and function of white and BAT become relevant. In the present study, we analyzed the influence of resveratrol (sirtuin activator) on energy balance and the expression of thermogenesis markers. Mice were divided into two groups: standard diet (ST) and standard diet plus resveratrol (ST + RSV). After 2 months of treatment, ST + RSV mice presented significantly decreased fat accumulation in adipose tissue, with diminished total cholesterol and glucose plasma levels. Additionally, increased oxygen consumption was observed in ST + RSV group. Analyses of mRNA of thermogenesis-related genes showed significant increase in UCP1, SIRT1, PTEN and BMP-7 expression in BAT. Our data suggest that improved metabolism produced by oral administration of resveratrol is, at least in part, associated with increased thermogenesis followed by high expression of UCP1 and SIRT1, which can mediate higher energy expenditure and decreased fat accumulation in adipose tissue.

 

 

 

 

https://www.research...a_standard_diet

Edited by shp5, 12 October 2019 - 06:47 PM.

[Kalliste]

 

 

Posted in wrong thread. Please remove this comment

Edited by Kalliste, 15 November 2019 - 05:36 AM.