285 replies to this topic

[LongLife]

In a such sense, taking C60 EVOO with purple color can be regarded as not yet oxidized(or degraded) form? If so, wouldn't this mean taking them within a period while it is purple color can be effective?

Turnbukle, what is your maximum dosage at once in a day and in a week without any side effects?

C60 produced by buckylabs, Carbon60oliveoil seem to be purple when they are manufactured(as guessed), but it also seems that manufacturing process includes light exposure(visible light). Still, it is purple, doesn't this imply color cannot tell everything about its oxidized or olive oil components' adduct formation?

GENERAL INFORMATION:

I have been reading over many articles, posts and research papers on C60, primarily to answer my questions for some of the paradoxes that have come to light.

 

Color. In oil, talking olive oil and vegetable oils (olives are fruits), C60 starts out purple and migrates to dark brown. In almost all cases this is true. There is speculation why this color change occurs and some deep testing has also produced some paradox results. So far, a deep brown color is not 100% indicative of "being bad" but is mentioned to be the continued integration of the C60 with the oil. Yes, even though it is not being shaken or stirred.

 

Any oil will go rancid, even diesel oil. Bacteria, fungus, light, heat, it all plays it's rolls on oils. C60 does not stop reacting with the oil. When it gets inside of you, it keeps reacting for a very long time. The C60 does not breakdown into smaller particles. It is a catalyst and causes stuff to happen just because it is present (the place and the time). Due to this, there is a LOT of research on many aspects of C60 from "super dupper, I've got to get some of that" to "oh my gosh, what the %$#*&^& happened to all those critters?" 

 

I consider myself "semi-old" and getting older all the time. At this point in time, I would choose not to touch this stuff for a few years (until a few questions are answered in labs) IF I were younger (say under age 50 and healthy). I am on the fence now, I read testimony of TURNBUCKLE and others who have two, three, four years under their belt and I am REALLY tempted. I might consider whipping up a tiny batch with my favorite polyUNsaturated's, meaning having a few batches being stirred at any give day, s as to be taking FRESH clean product. Hey, I'm not getting younger doing what I'm doing now.

[Turnbuckle]

Any oil will go rancid, even diesel oil. Bacteria, fungus, light, heat, it all plays it's rolls on oils. C60 does not stop reacting with the oil. When it gets inside of you, it keeps reacting for a very long time. 

 

 

 

People prefer supplements that have some shelf stability, and C60EVOO simply doesn't have it. So for me it's now a saturated oil (like  caprylic acid or caprylic/capric acids) with added polyphenols (hydroxytyrosol). One could then experiment with adducts by adding in a small amount of unsaturated oil, but I haven't done that.

[mikeinnaples]

 

In a such sense, taking C60 EVOO with purple color can be regarded as not yet oxidized(or degraded) form? If so, wouldn't this mean taking them within a period while it is purple color can be effective?

Turnbukle, what is your maximum dosage at once in a day and in a week without any side effects?

C60 produced by buckylabs, Carbon60oliveoil seem to be purple when they are manufactured(as guessed), but it also seems that manufacturing process includes light exposure(visible light). Still, it is purple, doesn't this imply color cannot tell everything about its oxidized or olive oil components' adduct formation?

GENERAL INFORMATION:

I have been reading over many articles, posts and research papers on C60, primarily to answer my questions for some of the paradoxes that have come to light.

 

Color. In oil, talking olive oil and vegetable oils (olives are fruits), C60 starts out purple and migrates to dark brown. In almost all cases this is true. There is speculation why this color change occurs and some deep testing has also produced some paradox results. So far, a deep brown color is not 100% indicative of "being bad" but is mentioned to be the continued integration of the C60 with the oil. Yes, even though it is not being shaken or stirred.

 

Any oil will go rancid, even diesel oil. Bacteria, fungus, light, heat, it all plays it's rolls on oils. C60 does not stop reacting with the oil. When it gets inside of you, it keeps reacting for a very long time. The C60 does not breakdown into smaller particles. It is a catalyst and causes stuff to happen just because it is present (the place and the time). Due to this, there is a LOT of research on many aspects of C60 from "super dupper, I've got to get some of that" to "oh my gosh, what the %$#*&^& happened to all those critters?" 

 

I consider myself "semi-old" and getting older all the time. At this point in time, I would choose not to touch this stuff for a few years (until a few questions are answered in labs) IF I were younger (say under age 50 and healthy). I am on the fence now, I read testimony of TURNBUCKLE and others who have two, three, four years under their belt and I am REALLY tempted. I might consider whipping up a tiny batch with my favorite polyUNsaturated's, meaning having a few batches being stirred at any give day, s as to be taking FRESH clean product. Hey, I'm not getting younger doing what I'm doing now.

 

 

I disagree with the part in bold. The initial color is completely dependent on the amount of chlorophyll in the oil.

 

A cold pressed, freshly made made batch of quality EVOO with a high chlorophyll count (deep green oil) will result in C60EVOO with a deep red color when black lit. This is not spoiled oil and will be brownish in color when not back lit.
 

[mikeinnaples]

 

Any oil will go rancid, even diesel oil. Bacteria, fungus, light, heat, it all plays it's rolls on oils. C60 does not stop reacting with the oil. When it gets inside of you, it keeps reacting for a very long time. 

 

 

 

People prefer supplements that have some shelf stability, and C60EVOO simply doesn't have it. So for me it's now a saturated oil (like  caprylic acid or caprylic/capric acids) with added polyphenols (hydroxytyrosol). One could then experiment with adducts by adding in a small amount of unsaturated oil, but I haven't done that.

 

 

Evidenced by what? Admittedly, I have not been reading everything like I used too due to time constraints. Are you saying that C60EVOO has less shelf life than even EVOO if stored properly? A quality EVOO stored in the dark and away form heat sources does not go rancid for quite a while. Personally I dont risk it, because I split my batches into monthly doses and freeze them a single time, and only thaw it before use. Of course there may be issues with that as well.......

[smithx]

I have personally discontinued C60 usage for now, at least until Kmoody gets some answers.

 

To clear up any mistaken impressions people may have about what was known about the particular batch which was found to cause tumor growth:

 

- Kmoody mentioned that they purchased SES C60OO and used it in the study that showed increased tumor growth

- I previously had asked SES how they produced their C60OO and they said they used sonication (documented in the best commercial C60OO thread)

- Sonication could have been responsible if it was used, because it could create different compounds than would be created by stirring

- Kmoody said in an email to me that he had contacted SES and they claimed they did not use sonication in the batch which they sold to his lab

 

So we can't blame sonication for this, until proven otherwise.

 

On tumors: yes the mice were injected with tumor cells. Yes they are a mouse line prone to tumors. On the other hand:

 

- No one can be sure they don't have genes predisposing them to cancer. Anyone could have inherited them, or they could have had a spontaneous mutation.

- No one can be sure they don't already have cancer. You can do all kinds of imaging and still miss small tumors.

 

So if C60OO stimulates tumor growth, even if it suppresses tumor formation, it's unsafe to take it unless you have no tumors. And since you can't know that you have no tumors, it must be presumed to be unsafe to take.

 

At this point, until we have better data, it seems foolish to take C60OO unless you are using it to treat some kind of mitochondrial disease that can't be otherwise treated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sensei]

On tumors: yes the mice were injected with tumor cells. Yes they are a mouse line prone to tumors. 

 

They are immuno-compromised mice.  Specifically, so that the xenografted tumor cells will not be attacked by the host.

 

I would be interested in Ichor adding Fe or Cu to the mix with ascorbate and see what happens.  My conjecture is that we would likely see tumor apoptosis and necrosis.

 

IMHO, the probable action of C60OO causing the tumor growth, is the scavenging of superoxide radicals.  

 

It is established science that C60OO is a powerful superoxide scavenger.  Superoxides are cytotoxic to most cancer cell lines because the cancer cells don't produce, or under-produce catalase.  Catalase degrades H2O2, which is a byproduct of Superoxide.

 

Superoxide dismutase: an emerging target for cancer therapeutics.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12540279

[LongLife]

 

 

Any oil will go rancid, even diesel oil. Bacteria, fungus, light, heat, it all plays it's rolls on oils. C60 does not stop reacting with the oil. When it gets inside of you, it keeps reacting for a very long time. 

 

 

 

People prefer supplements that have some shelf stability, and C60EVOO simply doesn't have it. So for me it's now a saturated oil (like  caprylic acid or caprylic/capric acids) with added polyphenols (hydroxytyrosol). One could then experiment with adducts by adding in a small amount of unsaturated oil, but I haven't done that.

 

 

Evidenced by what? Admittedly, I have not been reading everything like I used too due to time constraints. Are you saying that C60EVOO has less shelf life than even EVOO if stored properly? A quality EVOO stored in the dark and away form heat sources does not go rancid for quite a while. Personally I dont risk it, because I split my batches into monthly doses and freeze them a single time, and only thaw it before use. Of course there may be issues with that as well.......

MIKEINNAPLES:

 

I did not see the part about the Chlorophyll when reading about the colors, not to say it is not so. I will check it out.

 

NINER says adducts are formed. This is not a common event as usually a chemical reaction entails leaving something behind or two new molecules/compounds being formed. IMHO, IF the oil (olive oil in this case) has whatever in it, say Chlorophyll for instance, that whatever complex MAY become part of the adduct.

 

That being said and believed to be true, the olive oil does not have to be "rancid", it could be that it is in via to rancidity, it could have chemical changes that took place/are taking place, which in the end may cause "massive tumor growth" or whatever. Too many variables. KMOODY and team shall hopefully put many potential issues / questions to rest.

 

Evidenced by what?

By research, the information comes from studies, published, their results. So I am not clear on the question, as in what part of the statements are you questioning. If it is about oils going "rancid" from a number of factors I listed, this is "general knowledge" in the oil industry. If it is possible, maybe the word "rancid" needs to be defined so we are on the same page. It could mean "not fit for human consumption", correct? I am using the term as in "not fit for use with C60", like that. If the oil components have caused tumors to increase in size "massively", then I believe it is not fit for consumption.

 

If you are referring to what TURNBUCKLE stated, I agree with him in what is said concerning the type of oil, saturated, unsaturated, etc. If it is about " and C60EVOO simply doesn't have it"

...well, the literature "claims" (not everything is understood about C60 yet) that the C60 continues to react...obviously, it performs with the lipids, oils, in our body or it would not get through that double fatty tissue wall of the mitochondria, correct? There are a few different theory on that too. Great. No givens yet, too many variables. But TURNBUCKLE would need to express what further he means by this. Is it a fact that all C60EVOO goes "rancid" faster than EVOO? I hope not, I don't know.

[Turnbuckle]

 

But TURNBUCKLE would need to express what further he means by this. Is it a fact that all C60EVOO goes "rancid" faster than EVOO? I hope not, I don't know.

 

 

I meant that C60 in EVOO does not have shelf stability. It continues to react with components in the oil and this is obvious by the changing color. No conclusion about its effectiveness can be drawn from its color alone without further study, only that it must be chemically different. Certainly EVOO without C60 does not have shelf stability. The polyphenols decay with time. The chlorophyll decays as well. The acidity goes up. This starts on day one and accelerates, especially if the oil is stored incorrectly. According to this paper, rancidity is preceded by the formation of odorless and flavorless hydroperoxides--

 

(odorless, flavorless compounds, produced during the primary step of oxidation) and that they successively broke down into aldehydes and ketones, which are responsible for off-flavors (secondary oxidation). 

 

 

 

So just because the oil doesn't taste or smell rancid doesn't mean it hasn't been damaged.

[nowayout]

C60OO?  As with any supplement, hurry up and use it while it still works.

 

Unless you live in the U.S., where all kids are above average and placebos are getting stronger.

 

http://nymag.com/sci...g-stronger.html

[nowayout]

- No one can be sure they don't already have cancer. You can do all kinds of imaging and still miss small tumors.

 

Apparently we can be pretty sure - that we have cancer cells...
 

http://www.nytimes.c...lth/27canc.html

 

 

Cancer cells and precancerous cells are so common that nearly everyone by middle age or old age is riddled with them, said Thea Tlsty, a professor of pathology at the University of California, San Francisco. That was discovered in autopsy studies of people who died of other causes, with no idea that they had cancer cells or precancerous cells. They did not have large tumors or symptoms of cancer. “The really interesting question,” Dr. Tlsty said, “is not so much why do we get cancer as why don’t we get cancer?”

[smithx]

Update from Kmoody

 

I have been corresponding a bit with Kmoody and he's given me permission to post this update. Based on all the evidence so far, I think it prudent to discontinue C60OO until more results are in.
 

 

The evidence we currently have is limited, but growing. When we made fresh C60oo in house it met expected product specifications. When we received SES research C60oo and tested it, we found that it had a lower concentration according to HPLC at a fixed wavelength absorbance. We looked into this further, and discovered the absorbance profile (per UV/VIS spec analysis at full spectrum) was different between the two (i.e. some of the C60 may have broken down into a by-product that had a different absorbance profile, which accounts for the apparent decrease in concentration by our analytical method).

We adjusted our HPLC method, and were able to resolve a second C60 peak in the SES C60oo, but not in our home-made stuff. We confirmed that the second peak is not contaminant C70, and our current thinking is that it is a breakdown product, likely from photo-oxidation. This is the only difference we have been able to detect between our formulation and SES research's formulation, which has led us to hypothesize that whatever this peak is, it is responsible for the apparent toxicity we are seeing.

We are attempting to further characterize the peak now. However, this is a bit of a secondary project for us because I want to translate C60 as an actual drug candidate, and olive oil is a poor vehicle from a regulatory perspective because it is not chemically defined, and exhibits significant batch to batch variability. So rather than try to answer what is going on in olive oil, it is better from a commercialization perspective to find a chemically defined vehicle, confirm it has similar efficacy as compared to C60oo, and do stability testing and breakdown product characterization with that vehicle instead of olive oil.

So that is where we are at the moment. Our new vivarium (mouse room) will not be done until the beginning of August and we have a number of existing contractual obligations for contract research, so our capacity to do C60oo studies right now is limited until we can move into our new facility. Once we do, we expect to be able to thoroughly answer many of these questions directly.

Apologies I haven't had the bandwidth to stay as involved in the Longecity conversation as I would have liked. The lab has been keeping us incredibly busy!

 

 

[mikeinnaples]

Just a bit of extremely new information from me. I will let you decide the relevance.

 

My dog began C60 at 10 years of age and was just diagnosed at age 13 with a massive tumor in her head. She was taking 5mg a month of home brew C60EVOO (using SES C60 99.5%), so probably around 2.5mg C60 in my mix. Unfortunately because of the size and location of the tumor, combined with her age, there isn't much I can do for her medically speaking. There are other things I am doing for her, keto+MBZ+apiginen+quercetin+resveratrol, etc. to try to help her though. With that said, she is a an extremely young 13 .....minus the cancer of course.

 

For me personally, this has prompted me to stop the supplementation as well.

 

 

[Turnbuckle]

Just a bit of extremely new information from me. I will let you decide the relevance.

 

My dog began C60 at 10 years of age and was just diagnosed at age 13 with a massive tumor in her head. She was taking 5mg a month of home brew C60EVOO (using SES C60 99.5%), so probably around 2.5mg C60 in my mix. Unfortunately because of the size and location of the tumor, combined with her age, there isn't much I can do for her medically speaking. There are other things I am doing for her, keto+MBZ+apiginen+quercetin+resveratrol, etc. to try to help her though. With that said, she is a an extremely young 13 .....minus the cancer of course.

 

For me personally, this has prompted me to stop the supplementation as well.

 

How fresh was this mix?

[Graviton]

With that said, she is a an extremely young 13 .....minus the cancer of course.

What do you mean by "an extremely young 13 minus the cancer"?

[mikeinnaples]

 

Just a bit of extremely new information from me. I will let you decide the relevance.

 

My dog began C60 at 10 years of age and was just diagnosed at age 13 with a massive tumor in her head. She was taking 5mg a month of home brew C60EVOO (using SES C60 99.5%), so probably around 2.5mg C60 in my mix. Unfortunately because of the size and location of the tumor, combined with her age, there isn't much I can do for her medically speaking. There are other things I am doing for her, keto+MBZ+apiginen+quercetin+resveratrol, etc. to try to help her though. With that said, she is a an extremely young 13 .....minus the cancer of course.

 

For me personally, this has prompted me to stop the supplementation as well.

 

How fresh was this mix?

 

 

The EVOO was prepared with C60, split into amber bottles equally, and frozen in approximately 3-4 months from harvest date of the olives. I kept the C60EVOO frozen until use.

 

As I have mentioned in other posts, my C60EVOO was bright red when back lit. The EVOO itself started out very green.

 

 

Specifically this oil: https://www.barianio...irgin-olive-oil

 

Here is how it is processed, so you dont have to dig around on the site if interested.

 

Production of extra virgin olive oil starts with the peculiar caretaking of our olive orchards. Nothing is neglected since the start. The olive harvest begins in October, when the olives are still green, up until the end of December when the olives reach their ripeness and are black in color. The olives are hand harvested to avoid bruising and other damage caused by mechanical harvesters. As the olives arrive at the olive mill they are immediately cleaned and washed to remove any debris before being crushed. The resulting olive paste from the crusher is subsequently uniformly mixed and its oil extracted. This extra virgin olive oil remains cold extracted and unfiltered to preserve its raw qualities and stored in temperature controlled stainless steel tanks until bottling

Edited by mikeinnaples, 05 July 2016 - 02:25 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

 

With that said, she is a an extremely young 13 .....minus the cancer of course.

What do you mean by "an extremely young 13 minus the cancer"?

 

 

What I mean is that her behavior and appearance was not that of a typical 13 year old dog. Her eyesight, hearing, endurance, and mobility were extremely good. She was walking 3+ miles a day and could still leap over the couch from the floor, heh. Granted some of that has to do with her breed (Parson Russel Terrier aka, formerly known as a Jack Russel), but even the two vets she sees remark on how youthful she is.

 

That has changed in the past week pretty drastically. She is a tough old girl, so she isn't ready to give up yet. I am just hoping I can halt the progression or at the very least make whatever time she has left, comfortable. Needless to say, this entire holiday weekend was all about her and taking her to do the things she loves (beach, park, car rides)

[mikeinnaples]

Sorry if I am derailing the thread some talking about my dog. While it isn't directly relevant to commercial C60EVOO, it is relevant to the underlying tumor issue as this is a 'massive' tumor. Is the C60EVOO responsible, who knows.

[Graviton]

 

 

With that said, she is a an extremely young 13 .....minus the cancer of course.

What do you mean by "an extremely young 13 minus the cancer"?

 

 

What I mean is that her behavior and appearance was not that of a typical 13 year old dog. Her eyesight, hearing, endurance, and mobility were extremely good. She was walking 3+ miles a day and could still leap over the couch from the floor, heh. Granted some of that has to do with her breed (Parson Russel Terrier aka, formerly known as a Jack Russel), but even the two vets she sees remark on how youthful she is.

 

That has changed in the past week pretty drastically. She is a tough old girl, so she isn't ready to give up yet. I am just hoping I can halt the progression or at the very least make whatever time she has left, comfortable. Needless to say, this entire holiday weekend was all about her and taking her to do the things she loves (beach, park, car rides)

 

That sounds like C60evoo she took kept her in youthful phenotype, but worsen the tumor development that she might have before she had started to take.

Has ever your dog diagnosed with tumor before from vets? developing cancer progression, or make new tumor from normal cells?

Edited by Graviton, 05 July 2016 - 03:05 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

That sounds like C60evoo she took kept her in youthful phenotype, but worsen the tumor development that she might have before she had started to take.

Have ever your dog diagnosed with tumor before from vets? developing cancer progression, or make new tumor from normal cells?

 

 

She has had several lipomas before, but never cancer. The lipoma history and the way it was presenting itself, led two different vets to believe it was that.

[Graviton]

 

 

That sounds like C60evoo she took kept her in youthful phenotype, but worsen the tumor development that she might have before she had started to take.

Have ever your dog diagnosed with tumor before from vets? developing cancer progression, or make new tumor from normal cells?

 

 

She has had several lipomas before, but never cancer. The lipoma history and the way it was presenting itself, led two different vets to believe it was that.

 

Sorry for confusion. I meant tumor. falsely interchanged between tumor and cancer.

So, she had tumors before. Then, C60evoo might aggravate tumor progression, but still wonder if it might develop new tumors.

Where were several lipomas in your dog before she took that?

Edited by Graviton, 05 July 2016 - 03:12 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

Yeah she has had lipomas before, therefor 'tumors'. The existing lipomas have not changed much in size. The only only I noticed any growth of was one on her abdomen and it has been minimal over the past few years.

[BioFreak]

I've got an - several months open - 60oo bottle, buyed 30.11.2015 (expiry date July 2017)... from owndoc. Stored in indirect light (but a brown bottle, so no UV I guess).

 

Might it be risky to consume now? Turnbuckle, kmoody, your opinion?

[Captain Obvious]

I had a cat once. He wasn't very old, but got a cancerous tumor anyway and had to be put down. He didn't consume any C60.

 

The point is, here we have a case where n = 1 with huge number of unknown variables so it really can't be used as a case for or against C60 supplementation.

Edited by State of the Art, 06 July 2016 - 10:27 AM.

[mikeinnaples]

I had a cat once. He wasn't very old, but got a cancerous tumor anyway and had to be put down. He didn't consume any C60.

 

The point is, here we have a case where n = 1 with huge number of unknown variables so it really can't be used as a case for or against C60 supplementation.

 

Yeah no shit, thanks for the insight captain obvious.

 

My post was very clearly anecdotal, so glad you are finally on board after your epiphany.

Edited by mikeinnaples, 06 July 2016 - 01:05 PM.

[Captain Obvious]

Captain Obvious. I like that. Not sure if I can change my username, but if I can, that'll be the new one!

Now, I was not replying to you personally or claiming that you were making it as an evidence of anything, so no need to get hostile with me.

I was just making the obvious (as you said) point, because as far as I could see, people started taking this as some sort of a warning signal. Which i suppose it is, but then C60 is a xenobiotic anyway and should be approach with caution in the first place.

We'll just need to wait for further studies (obviously again) before ringing the alarms.

[Captain Obvious]

Btw, the cat story is true. :/

[mikeinnaples]

Captain Obvious. I like that. Not sure if I can change my username, but if I can, that'll be the new one!

Now, I was not replying to you personally or claiming that you were making it as an evidence of anything, so no need to get hostile with me.

I was just making the obvious (as you said) point, because as far as I could see, people started taking this as some sort of a warning signal. Which i suppose it is, but then C60 is a xenobiotic anyway and should be approach with caution in the first place.

We'll just need to wait for further studies (obviously again) before ringing the alarms.

 

Fair enough. Looks like I read that differently than you intended it.

 

 

Edited by mikeinnaples, 06 July 2016 - 02:09 PM.

[Graviton]

Did Kmoody just test with C60 EVOO from SES(prepared by SES, following their own method)? Or, did he purchased C60 raw materials from SES, then prepare C60 EVOO following Baati's protocol?

I wonder raw C60 from SES is problematic or preparation methods of SES is problematic.

Edited by Graviton, 07 July 2016 - 08:06 AM.

[BioFreak]

My takeaway is not to buy c60oo from an supplier because even if there is the remotest chance that the production or storage are not optimal, or the product too old, the risk is too high. There is no external control of the suppliers, and even if there was, mistakes can be made.

 

I'm now waiting for the full report... And then probably will start @ home production.

[Graviton]

At this point, either home-made and vendor's C60 may not be safe. If one may make a mistake/mistakes on following Baati's protocol at home, and if one does not have enough knowledge in chemistry, one's preparation can be even worse than vendor's. One thing more need to consider is devices and apparatus that can sufficiently fulfill its quality.