285 replies to this topic

[sthira]

KMoody: you tested sloppy vendor products on mice. But did you attempt to concoct your own C60oo by purchasing C60 powder directly from SES, purchasing a high quality, freshly-harvested polyphenol ev olive oil, mixing as instructed, and keeping the self-produced result in darkness? This appears to be the way many here used C60oo -- not vendor products, but a home-produced substance then stored in dark coolness.

[ambivalent]

Kelsey, respectfully, although it is clearly right not to be casual with the wellbeing of lab mice,  it is seems rather strong to state that mice would be poisoned by vendor's products. It has only been established that SES product was toxic and as far has been discussed this may have been due to irregular preparation methods. Agevivo's mice were almost certainly administered degraded oil and two of the three lived extensively and it seems likely that some toxins would have developed in Baati's oil, but to no detriment.

 

May I ask the extent to which good&cheap failed in your second sample test?

 

The community deeply appreciates your efforts, I feel it is in all of our interests, perhaps critically so, to raise funds here to help further develop your work.

 

Many thanks.

 

    

[Graviton]

It also seems that C60oo bottles prepared by oneself at home are not safe either. If they care about the risks from light exposure, then entire process of manufacturing should not include light exposure, but would that be easy at home?. Due to lack of apparatus and understanding of preparation method, preparing home seems to take the similar risk as vendors' c60 oo. 

[Empiricus]

It also seems that C60oo bottles prepared by oneself at home are not safe either. If they care about the risks from light exposure, then entire process of manufacturing should not include light exposure, but would that be easy at home?. Due to lack of apparatus and understanding of preparation method, preparing home seems to take the similar risk as vendors' c60 oo. 

 

My question is similar.

 

If the olive oil had been exposed to light prior to adding c60, is there any reason to think this brew wouldn't be as bad as the brew exposed to light during or after? Is light absorbed by "c60-in-olive oil" the real concern here, or does light-exposed olive oil that's later mixed with c60 amount to the same thing?  

Edited by Empiricus, 19 February 2017 - 11:01 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

 

 

We took empty vessels from each of the vendors and tested their ability to prevent light mediated degradation of C60oo. None of them were effective at blocking out the light at appreciable levels.

 

 

Tell me more.

 

How did you determine that these vessels were insufficient in their ability to prevent light mediated degradation of C60oo?

 

Amber glass certainly is effective at "blocking out the light at appreciable levels", at least some wavelengths.  That's why it's amber and not clear.

 

Did you put C60oo in these vessels, expose them to some reference level of light and then somehow measure degradation of the C60oo?
 

 

[Turnbuckle]

 

 

 

Amber glass certainly is effective at "blocking out the light at appreciable levels", at least some wavelengths.  That's why it's amber and not clear.

 

 

 

 

 

Amber glass does block light at some wavelengths. Unfortunately, even red light is sufficient to cause a problem with C60 solutions, and amber bottles are almost transparent to those wavelengths. 

 

Visible light has been shown to induce C60 photo-chemical transformations and have been shown to have a low energy gap of approximately 1.8 eV, which excites ground state electrons in C60 to the excited state and causes oxidation in the presence of oxygen [16] and [26]. Our expectation is therefore to observe phenomena associated with fullerene oxidation, and is indeed confirmed by spectroscopic data.

 

http://www.sciencedi...021979715000326

 

 

Red light has photon energies of 1.65–2.00 eV, and thus has sufficient energy to oxidize fullerenes in solution. You can demonstrate its penetration through amber bottles with a red laser pointer or LED flashlight, and you can demonstrate its chemical effect by dissolving C60 in MCT oil and exposing it to red light  for a few minutes as I reported in this post. If the light has a wavelength of around 688 nm or less, it should have sufficient energy to create oxygen radicals and produce an odor of rancidity from the caprylic acid released. (You won't get the same odor from olive oil because of the lower vapor pressure of the fatty acids, however, there is likely just as much damage).

Edited by Turnbuckle, 20 February 2017 - 12:19 PM.

[jeanlzt11]

To avoid light, could you put each bottle in a black mylar foil lined ziplock bag and then freeze?  They're inexpensive on Amazon, come in all sizes and look reusable.

[Turnbuckle]

To avoid light, could you put each bottle in a black mylar foil lined ziplock bag and then freeze?  They're inexpensive on Amazon, come in all sizes and look reusable.

 

 

I've used black polyethylene ziplocks and they work rather well, though a very small amount of red light can be detected through a single layer using an intense beam. However, keeping it in the freezer ought to prevent any significant exposure. Black foil lined bags ought to be even better.

[Huckfinn]

But: while it's feasible to keep C60OO in complete dark how do we go about putting c60 through mortar and pestle in the darkness?
We just add it to OO as is?
And even in this case: we couldn't see a thing.
?

Edited by Huckfinn, 20 February 2017 - 08:27 PM.

[Graviton]

 

To avoid light, could you put each bottle in a black mylar foil lined ziplock bag and then freeze?  They're inexpensive on Amazon, come in all sizes and look reusable.

 

 

I've used black polyethylene ziplocks and they work rather well, though a very small amount of red light can be detected through a single layer using an intense beam. However, keeping it in the freezer ought to prevent any significant exposure. Black foil lined bags ought to be even better.

 

why do you need black ziplocks? what about the small box container which seems to block the light.

[jeanlzt11]

A lightproof box might work too, as well as wrapping them in aluminum foil.  It's just what's most convenient for you.  The bags would be easier for me as I could seal and store them individually.

[jeanlzt11]

Since C60 is less reactive to oxygen while in solution it would seem wise to mix all of the C60 at once.  But since the smallest amount of C60 that SES sells is 1 gram that would make about 1500 ml or 50 ounces of product.  Would it be better to try and store some of the C60 powder under vacuum so you could make less or make up the whole gram and freeze? I don't use much so making up the entire gram would last years. Anyone have suggestions?

[Graviton]

Since C60 is less reactive to oxygen while in solution it would seem wise to mix all of the C60 at once.  But since the smallest amount of C60 that SES sells is 1 gram that would make about 1500 ml or 50 ounces of product.  Would it be better to try and store some of the C60 powder under vacuum so you could make less or make up the whole gram and freeze? I don't use much so making up the entire gram would last years. Anyone have suggestions?

How do you know that C60 is less reactive in solution? Different types of oil are easy to be oxidized in presence of light and oxygen.

[jeanlzt11]

I'd prefer to make small batches and store the unused C60 powder but don't have any way to use inert gas, only a vacuum sealer.  I thought it should be used all at once from reading this post #7

[Turnbuckle]

 

Since C60 is less reactive to oxygen while in solution it would seem wise to mix all of the C60 at once.  But since the smallest amount of C60 that SES sells is 1 gram that would make about 1500 ml or 50 ounces of product.  Would it be better to try and store some of the C60 powder under vacuum so you could make less or make up the whole gram and freeze? I don't use much so making up the entire gram would last years. Anyone have suggestions?

How do you know that C60 is less reactive in solution? Different types of oil are easy to be oxidized in presence of light and oxygen.

 

 

 

See this post.

[jeanlzt11]

To avoid light, could you put each bottle in a black mylar foil lined ziplock bag and then freeze?  They're inexpensive on Amazon, come in all sizes and look reusable.

Could anyone tell me why someone put  a "dangerous, irresponsible"  emoticon on this post of mine?  If it is dangerous I'd like to know why.

[lost69]

1 bottle of carbonc60olive oil has been open and inspected by customs, should i be concerned?

 

i guess it got exposed to light for very little time but since we have no data on time of exposure to produce toxicity and type of light i m not sure what to do about it for now

[Graviton]

 

 

The fullerenes were degraded in all the treatments and the decay followed a pseudo-first-order rate law. In absence of a solid matrix, the half-life (t1⁄2) of the C60 was 13.1 days, with an overall degradation of 45.1% that was accompanied by the formation of functionalized C60-like structures. Furthermore, mass spectrometric analysis highlighted the presence of a large number of transformation products that were not directly related to the irradiation and presented opened cage and oxidized structures. When C60 was spiked into solid matrices the degradation occurred at a faster rate (t1⁄2 of 4.5 and 0.8 days for quartz sand and sandy soil, respectively). Minor but consistent losses were found in the non-irradiated samples, presumably due to biotic or chemical processes occurring in these samples.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/28211322

 

Here is another study that fullerene is light sensitive material, and fullerene degrades even in non-irradiated group.

If solid particle C60 is bought from company, then how do you know that C60 solid is preserved in the absence of light?

Edited by Graviton, 04 March 2017 - 03:59 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

 

 

 

The fullerenes were degraded in all the treatments and the decay followed a pseudo-first-order rate law. In absence of a solid matrix, the half-life (t1⁄2) of the C60 was 13.1 days, with an overall degradation of 45.1% that was accompanied by the formation of functionalized C60-like structures. Furthermore, mass spectrometric analysis highlighted the presence of a large number of transformation products that were not directly related to the irradiation and presented opened cage and oxidized structures. When C60 was spiked into solid matrices the degradation occurred at a faster rate (t1⁄2 of 4.5 and 0.8 days for quartz sand and sandy soil, respectively). Minor but consistent losses were found in the non-irradiated samples, presumably due to biotic or chemical processes occurring in these samples.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/28211322

 

Here is another study that fullerene is light sensitive material, and fullerene degrades even in non-irradiated group.

If solid particle C60 is bought from company, then how do you know that C60 solid is preserved in the absence of light?

 

 

From the abstract it seems that the non-irradiated group degraded to a minor degree due to chemical or biological attack. It's also known that C60 will be degraded by ozone in the air, which can exist in the home. So for storage, best to keep C60 in the dark, double ziplocked, and perhaps in the freezer as well. Of course you won't know what happened to it beforehand at the manufacturer unless you ask them. Crystals of C60 should be less prone to attack before they are ground, and purer crystals will be less reactive due to the lack of crystal defects that allow oxygen to penetrate. Purer samples will also take longer to dissolve for the same reason.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 04 March 2017 - 09:58 PM.

[Graviton]

Not sure why it has to be stored in the double ziplocked. If it is stored in the air tight amber glass, at the first place, then what is the reason? How can air get through the glass bottle?

Not sure about the freezing chemical reaction. Too little unknown at that temperature. Freezing generally seems to slow down the types of reaction that is in favor of the heat. How do you know that favor in this case?

[Turnbuckle]

Not sure why it has to be stored in the double ziplocked. If it is stored in the air tight amber glass, at the first place, then what is the reason? How can air get through the glass bottle?

Not sure about the freezing chemical reaction. Too little unknown at that temperature. Freezing generally seems to slow down the types of reaction that is in favor of the heat. How do you know that favor in this case?

 

C60 from SES it comes in a small plastic vial, and probably doesn't have a perfect seal. Also, when you take it out, moisture will condense of the vial, but not if it is in a bag.

[Graviton]

If C60 is absorbed as a pristine form in intestinal tract and if it go through plasma in hourly manner, taking natural or artificial light from daily life can cause problems?

 

For C60 in plasma under the skin, how much light effectively affect the photo-sensitivity of C60? Would light outside affect the C60 in blood vessels before elimination period of C60?

 

After C60 is eliminated from plasma, how much light effectively affect C60 sensitivity to light if C60 is bound to membrane of cells?

 

Usually, inside the body is thought to be dark, but some cells are prone to light exposure from outside, and as Turnbuckle says it sounds to be dangerous to take light not only bleeding or open wound.

Edited by Graviton, 13 March 2017 - 06:44 AM.

[sensei]

FWIW,

 

I have mixed my own C60-OO from SES 99.95% that sat in the screw cap tube in my cupboard for over a year (it is not yet empty and still there BTW, with no signs whatsoever of moisture).

 

I  used commercial olive oil that sat in light for who knows how long, and mixed it by mortal pestle and then shaking.  I did keep the finished oil in a dark cupboard. -- But I used to hold it in front of a light bulb to see how well the C60 was dissolving.

 

I used CLEAR GLASS MASON JARS -- did not keep in fridge or freezer, and sometimes took 2 weeks to finish a jar, while others were being shaken.

 

Now -- on to the idea of lethal toxicity. -- used to sit the amber bottles that I purchased from vaughter out on the counter.

 

As I have reported before, I have downed 3 of those bottles -- rated @ 135 mg C60 -- based on other studies, 90 mg -- in one gross disgusting go. On more than one occasion.

 

I have also downed ~150-180  ml of my own mix that I know was .8-.9 mg/ml (I used a very good scale to measure the C60).

 

 

Based on the acute dosages that I, Anthony Loera, and others have taken of C60-OO made in multiple different ways --- well before any of this worry about light came about -- I propose there was some other contaminant than anything caused by light exposure.

 

As past posts of mine show I have ingested GRAMS of C60.  I took a break of about 2 years (although I downed a left over 50 ml/45 mg vaughter bottle I found laying around that was a few years old - about a month ago.

 

I have had no incidence of cancer, and I'm obviously not dead.

 

The only things I can report are:

 

My baldness has not increased

It took about a year for the gray to return to my beard and chest hair without taking C60

 

I plan to return to the high dose regimen I was following a few years ago that had such effects on my hair color and even eye color.

Edited by sensei, 26 June 2017 - 02:18 PM.

[caliope]

I've been using homemade C60-OO regularly going on three years, and predictably I too can attest to being cancer free (if I'd died of cancer I wouldn't be here to comment, after all). However, unlike most other users, I have recently had a head CT (looking for hereditary aneurysm). They surely would have noticed a tumor, even though they were just looking for aneurysms. It does seem to me that C60 is safe for healthy people. Whether it would be good for the typical stressed out, overweight, sugar-saturated American is the real question, I think. Does anyone have some rats with very unhealthy lifestyles?

 

[ta5]

I know someone who's been smoking cigarettes regularly going on three years, and can attest to them being cancer free.

[caliope]

Wow. Maybe that response was a test to see if C60 makes people irritable and defensive? I hope that my response proves it does not. Of course all the evidence here is anecdotal, and yes there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that smoking is harmless, as you mention. I thought the point of the forum is to gather as many different perspectives as possible, not to definitively prove anything one way or the other. I love this stuff, and yes my point of view is biased. Take everything I say with a grain of salt, as you should all anecdotal evidence. 

 

[Kimer Med]

Based on anecdotal reports, it seems likely that C60oo increases the activity of catalase, which is an enzyme that catalyzes hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) into oxygen and water. For example, increased catalase activity would explain the reduction in gray hair that many have reported.

 

Most types of cancer cells are known to have less catalase than healthy cells. The immune system uses H2O2 to attack and destroy errant cells. If catalase activity was increased in cancer cells, too, it's possible that they would be more resistant to the immune system than they already are, and would therefore grow faster.

 

Based on the Baati study, it seems as though C60oo may help prevent tumor formation. However, once tumors start growing, it may enhance their growth. On that basis, the prudent course of action may be to stop taking it if you develop cancer.

 

A possible counterpoint is that C60oo has apparently been shown to be effective against acute myeloid leukemia. However, that makes me wonder if catalase is as low in that type of cancer cell as it is in other cancers.

 

If this hypothesis is correct, it would also suggest a good counter-treatment: high-dose Vitamin C acts as an oxidizing agent, and forms H2O2 by way of an enhanced Fenton reaction. Substantially increasing H2O2 may be enough to overcome the increase in catalase activity.

[SarahVaughter]

Largest manufacturer/seller of C60-EVOO here, passing by to say that some months ago, we started to get our Solaris C60 in black glass bottles instead of the customary transparent plastic ones. Quite a while ago we already switched to thick black glass Miron bottles, which are so dark they can be practically called wholly non-tranparent.

 

I agree with Anthony Loera (sensei) that it is likely not (ordinary) light that causes any toxicity, for the following reason: Even though our storing (the olive oil comes in metal drums BTW), mixing and filling is done in complete darkness, half a dozen years ago, when we started, we used to consume residues from our manufacturing process in copious amounts in our salad. Like Loera, bottles at a time. And that oil was oil we did not fill off, it was from mixing experiments for example, stuff that had been sitting on the bottom of a vessel, exposed to our bright lab light for days. Since the product is so expensive and we would of course not sell anything like that, we'd drip it straight into our salad, without even filtering it. We'd use our salad bowl as some kind of "garbage bin" for oil residues from all kinds of places, and we'd let it sit on the bottom of containers and shallow vessels etc. until we'd made a salad again. We've been doing that for years. For six years we've been consuming enormous amounts (compared to even our best customers) and we always took product that was unsellable, residues.

 

I am curious to know how intense and what frequency (spectrum) the UV light was that Ichor used. I suspect what they did to the C60-EVOO by exposing it to an undisclosed UV-bombardment is comparable to have a bottle sitting for weeks or months in the bright sun. I'd pay them 1000 dollars for their exact protocol, and we will then replicate it exactly with both our old bottles as well as our new. Yes we will purchase mice and yes we will poison them to death if we have to, to verify their results. But there is no significant intensity UV light of glass-penetrating frequency inside a fridge or kitchen shelf so strong that when it penetrates brown glass, it will turn C60-EVOO into a lethal poison or even very midly toxic. I'd like to see Ichor's full data and as I said, I'm willing to pay money for it. We'll make a video of us replicating their procedure and post it on our site - I promise to do that regardless of the results. I also am prepared to bet an enormous amount of money that there is not the slightest risk of toxicity when stored in a brown bottle inside the home for years in ordinary ambient light. And I am willing to let an independent party establish that fact and put the bet money in escrow.

 

One more thing: We've sold many tens of thousands of bottles over the years and never, ever complained anyone of untoward side effects. Nearly all vendors of this product have an anonymous WHOIS and have zero address/company details on their site but we're a UK company in good standing for the past full decade and we're VERY easy to sue. The mixer we use was 30,000 USD and transporting that 800 lb beast was another two grand. Pic on our site. We do not compromise on quality.

Edited by SarahVaughter, 01 November 2017 - 03:02 AM.

[Valijon]

Show us the results of the tests and Ill buy some. I had tossed my previous C60 because of safety concerns.

[SarahVaughter]

It is up to him making the claim to provide evidence for such claim. You tossed a product based on an unsubstantiated claim. All we have is an assertion that shining an unknown intensity of UV light of an unknown frequency for an unknown amount of time through an amber bottle of C60-EVOO of an unknown provision turns it into a potent lethal poison. I'd like to see some evidence, like as in how to replicate this phenomenon. I am asking the one who made the claim to provide evidence, and am willing to pay for his time providing such, and willing to pay a very large sum as part of a bet (with escrow and neutral 3rd party observers) in case his claim is relevant for our product (as in, will there be significant toxicity under ambient light or light falling onto the bottle from a window). Using our old amber bottles, because now we use black glass that lets not even 1% of light through. One of the most common logical fallacies is Party A making an unproven claim to the detriment of party B, and when party B asks party A for proof, party A demanding that party B proves that party A's claim is incorrect. It is common knowledge that his is usually impossible. Again, I'm willing to pay 1000 dollars to Ichor for telling me how to replicate this phenomenon, and I pledge to replicate it on video and show the results on my site. I think when making such a serious claim, one should provide some evidence, especially when a very harmful claim is made about a potential competitor's products. As an aside: Did Ichor's Indiegogo backers get their money refunded? Strange how a successful startup with millions in seed money chose to ask people in the street for a dollar, five dollars, "anything helps", because one runs the substantial risk of an embarrasing public failure, forever tarnishing one's record in case one can't deliver to one's backers. Anyway "Ichor has investigated C60, but has had trouble with getting a consistent C60-oo formula for their experiment" so I presume they refunded the money. https://www.indiegog...model#/comments

Edited by SarahVaughter, 01 November 2017 - 11:54 AM.