47 replies to this topic

[farware]

So after a lot of reading I finally decided to take Tianeptine which is generally believed to be an SSRE (e = enhancer) that works on D2 receptors as well as glutamate receptors. Therefore I believe it may not be as beneficial for people low in serotonin / glutamate.

 

However, according to some studies high serotonin (in the stratium?) is the actual cause for anxiety and lots of mental disorders  http://archpsyc.jama...ticleid=2319711

 

So maybe its best to stop thinking about low / high NTs and look for the actual root causes and what receptors are involved in problems. Different areas in the brain can be in hypo / hyperstates for various NTs. Tianeptine seems to be modulating the glutamate receptors so it has a lot less side effects and seems to be effective for a broad spectrum of mental disorders.

 

• Day 1: Dosage 1x12mg - Went ok, little more active than usual. Nothing noticeable yet. 
• Day 2: Dosage 3x12mg - Best day in several years, anhediona completely gone, very creative feeling. Feeling of nostalgia. An almost spiritual dejavu .. crazy experience really. Managed to "hold" this dejavu for several seconds, then lost it, wondering how to reproduce that. Insane insomnia kicked in because I was so euphoric. Went to bed like really late. 
• Day 3: Dosage 3x12mg - Only got 5 hours sleep, usually need 8 to 10. Was rather productive that day, did a lot of chores, immense libido that day 
• Day 4: Dosage 1x12mg - Overslept, very vivid dreams, almost like in a bad horror movie but woke up thinking 'now that was fun' but dream recall was not good enough to remember more than a few seconds which is good for me but would prefer it to be a little longer. Muscle pain that day, generally depressed mood. Got relief in the evening after taking Piracetam 

 

Ok, so I'm sticking to 1x12mg for now. Insomnia is really killing it for me. I really like it for the vivid dreams and the enhanced libido. I think introducing 3x12mg too quickly overwhelms the body.

 

I havent quite figured out how Piracetam can lower muscle pain but I believe it has to do with its effect on the blood flow and vasodilation. 

Piracetam Improves Activated Blood Flow and Facilitates Rehabilitation of Poststroke Aphasic Patients

http://stroke.ahajou.../31/9/2112.full

 

Will let you know how it works out for me. Need to be patient now. 

 

 

Full List Of Side Effects:

 

- Eyelid twitching 

- Insomnia

- Enhanced Libido 

- Very, very subtle heart palpitations (once in 4 days) 

- ( Muscle crampings / pain? Could be individual response)

 

 

 

Edited by farware, 04 July 2016 - 09:42 PM.

[normalizing]

muscle cramps could be related to its opiate effect. its known to be a mild opiate in high doses even though you took quite small doses, you might be sensitive to opiates. anyway, thats the one side effect that sucks because it can cause depressive, muscle pains and other pains and problems if high dosed prolonged time and suddenly being dropped

[farware]

After 4 days without Tianeptine the effects continue to last which is the most surprising to me. Before Tianeptine my dreams usually incorporated more of my past always with the same characters. After Tianeptine the dreams have entertaining storylines again and are more creative and use more of my immediate experience from the day before. That may be a result of increased neuroplasticity which could be a result of lower glutamate. I also think its a sign of enhanced problem-solving capabilities. In one of my dreams my brain tried to solve a problem I'm working on in RL. Problem-solving skills and verbal reasoning are impaired in autism. Previously I also could never recall my dreams so clearly, thats a lot easier now and they are often a great experience.  

 

Thats great progress for me because I can draw a lot of conclusion from that. Sleep has a profound effect on your health and if you can sleep better your body will recover more easily. Although most people would say that they solve big problems on a rational level, I believe they underestimate the power of the unconscious. The brain is working on problems even when you dont actively think about them. Thats works via the unconscious mind and not on a rational level and I suspect that process seems to be impaired in people with impaired glutamate receptors.  

 

The effects are very profound which is why I will continue to take 1x12mg at least once per week. The insomnia was really strong for me so I am taking it very slow.

 

 

 

[farware]

I'm now back on 12.5mg Tianeptine per day. My body is still adjusting to it and Im trying to build a tolerance to the single dose so I can increase it to double that. The eyelid twitching is slowly going away and it fixed any libido issues permanently even when Im not on it for a couple days.  

 

I now finally can take digestive enzymes again it seems not sure if thats because Tianeptine is also working on the gut somehow but apparently its also used for IBS if I remember correctly, would be nice if there are synergetic effects

 

As for synergetic effects, next things I'll try is try Tryptophan + Tianeptine as suggested by stinkorninjor here http://www.longecity...-review/page-2 

 

Also trying L-Phenylalaline although it has mild MAO effects I dont think it will interfere a lot when you're low anyway. If the amino acid itself is too weak since its just a precursor I may have to get ahold of some PEA powder but am only considering it since I get pretty good effects from drinking raw cacao with hot water.  

 

I still have pretty severe insomnia as a side effect but I think Ill be able to fix that eventually 

[Seeker of Truth]

Where do you guys get buy tianeptine from? It's something I've been considering trying.

Edited by Seeker of Truth, 16 July 2016 - 12:23 AM.

[farware]

Anyone on here who can tell me a little about how it works chemically? 

 

My problem is that many theories suggest that opioid antagonists can cure autism but Tianeptine is an opiate as far as I understand it, how does it come its also considered for autism and IBS?

 

Here are some references:

 

https://en.wikipedia...ioid_antagonist

 

https://www.reddit.c...ing_absolutely/

 

Panksepp, have speculated that opioid antagonists such as naloxone and naltrexone may be useful in the treatment of autism

 

 

 

If it IS an opioid can it still regulate the opioid system? How does this work in the body? ELI5 please

Edited by farware, 16 July 2016 - 03:15 AM.

[farware]

Read through a lot of addiction stories which makes a bit more wary of my intake so I will only take the pills I have left and then reassess whether this may become addictive at low doses. Also to counter the tolerance-building and work more on autoimmune issues I will take low dose Naltrexone in combination with this.  

[normalizing]

where are you going to get naltrexone from?

[Mind_Paralysis]

Hmm, the supplementation with Tryptophan may not mean much, since as I recall, the rate-limiting enzymes put the kibosh on trying to increase them to any greater degree - so your brain wouldn't be flooded with Serotonin anyway.

Upon further review it does appear as if Tryptophan DOES increase Serotonin-levels (unlike eating foods high in tryptophan), to a small degree. But I'm not so sure this has much of an effect - you need to mess around with the enzymes for this to work.

Precursor control of neurotransmitter synthesis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/6115400/

 

That study is more than 30 years old though, and as I recall, it hasn't been reproduced or rechallenged, so it's sketchy, to say the least.

 

My further research did show that the most plausible problem isn't intake or synthesis of Tryptophan, but rather the enzymes that convert it into Melatonin and Kynurenic Acid.

 

 

Still, no one has ever done what you're doing, so it will be rather intriguing to see what the effects are! Perhaps there will be a slight, slight synergistic effect?

[farware]

I have a gene defect that causes less efficient serotonin processing according to 23andme. A lot of people think this data is hugely unreliable but so far for me everything has been spot on and has helped me identify Tianeptine in the first place. So I assume even if I have a lot serotonin its not making me as happy/stable as regular people. Tianeptine as a reuptake enhancer and glutamate modulator makes the most sense. 

 

I just wanted to drop in to report on possible addiction again. I have taken it for a while now regularly and I feel absolutely no urge to take more than 2 pills per day. Also the initial hangover and eye twitching is gone for good. Insomnia is still bad but I'm slowly adjusting. Now I just feel happy and more relaxed. Combining it with digestive enzymes with HCL and PEA from cacao just works wonders for me. Couldnt take the digestive enzymes before so Tianeptine also seems to work on the gut. I don't have to mention that my libido is back in full swing .. less anxiety seems to work magic in that regard. Ive been more active than in many years, can do things I used to enjoy again. I also notice how I find it easier to work on reasonable investment strategies that incorporate both pro and cons of an investment. Usually I'd be like a maximalist focusing only on the pros. Obviously my performance was rather poor over the years thanks to that. I'm an excellent stock picker but you absolutely need to know when to drop a loser because cutting losses is crucial in markets these days. So yea, money management is A LOT easier for me at the moment. Also after years of struggling making a decision on a rather important subject for me it took me 1 week on TIaneptine to find a solution.  

 

So Im very happy that things are finally working out for me. I highly recommend trying it if you believe you are affected by depression and excess glutamate and/or low testosterone. 

 

PS I stopped Piracetam .. I react very poorly to it, especially the Choline 

 

Just dont give up, keep trying things and keep a daily log of what works, you'll get there eventually... just dont give in. Cheers 

[Mind_Paralysis]

Are you still supplementing with Tryptophan as well?

Mind doing an experiment wherein you remove the Tryptophan from the regimen, in that case? To see what the possible effect, if any, would be.

[farware]

@Stinkorninjor I am not taking Tryptophan yet, but will try 5HTP in combination shortly 

 

 

@Everyone thinking about taking LDN at the same time... don't. I did and it was a horrible week. Apparently not ready yet for it. In another thread on here I read that you're supposed to take Tianeptine first for a good while to up dopamine and boost neurogenesis, then take the LDN. 

http://www.longecity...-would-it-work/

 

 

 

So trying to be a bit methodical here .. what would be the reason to take Tryptophan now? First, how would I take it? Most likely as L-Tryptophan (amino acid) or as 5-HTP which would be the 2nd step in the conversion process? 

 

L-Trypto -> 5HTP -> Serotonin

 

Sidenote for myself: The conversion process from 5-HTP to Serotonin depends on P5P. P5P depends on B6. However, it is believed that in particular autistic people / ADDers have issues converting B6 to P5P. To support the conversion from B6 to P5P the body needs B3 or more specifically NAD(H). 

 

So I am already supplementing P5P directly which probably improved dream recall more than Tianeptine. B6 can be toxic in high doses because it crosses the blood-brain barrier more easily whereas P5P does not cross the blood-brain barrier easily which is why I do not recommend B6 to boost this process. 

 

I also need to read more about the endo system, in particular adrenaline / endorphins. Trying to understand here how Tianeptine works on endorphins .. I generally feel a lot better now on Tianeptine. Initially the insomnia was horrible but now that Im through that its good. 

 

 

 

I double-checked my blood results and serotonin in the blood is on the low end. The goal here is obvious, improve neurogenesis and make serotonin processing more efficient. Question is whether you want to interfere with your bodys natural process to create serotonin. Short-term beneficial but longterm could cause more problems.  

 

Something of note - L-trypto competes with other amino acids:

 

For example, L-tryptophan shares the same transport mechanism with valine, leucine and isoleucine.

http://www.progressi...P_vs_Tryptophan

 

 

Valine is a branched-chain amino acid (side-chains with a branch) implicated in rare form of autism: 

http://www.nature.co...-autism-1.11375

 

 

Lectins: 

 

Lectins are thought to play a role in immune function, cell growth, cell death, and body fat regulation.

 

Because we don’t digest lectins, we often produce antibodies to them.

http://www.precision...l-about-lectins

 

 

A majority of researches now believes that autism is related to bacteria and toxins. 

 

Little offtopic: My questions is why do so many people with autism have a leaky gut? Could it be that our constant use of preservatives instead of using a fermentation process has resulted in this astronomical surge in autism? Are lectins to blame and are bacterial infections only a comborbid symptom due to a compromised immune system / leaky gut?

 

Some have argued that since agriculture is a relatively recent invention, humans did not evolve to tolerate grains nor beans well in any case. For some susceptible people, consuming a “Paleo-style” diet, where carbohydrates come from fruits and vegetables, rather than grains and beans, may be beneficial.

 

 

 

Of course it doesnt explain everything away, but most mental issues can be addressed by working on the gut. As it happens Tianeptine is sometimes used for IBS - how does that work? 

 

 

 

Edited by farware, 07 August 2016 - 05:31 PM.

[farware]

Another note: 

 

The results of the present study suggest that the complex effects of 5-HT on sleep depend on the degree and time course of activation of the serotonergic system such that 5-HT may directly inhibit sleep, yet induce a cascade of physiological processes that enhance subsequent sleep.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10658624

 

5-HTP seems to boost melatonin if I am not mistaken. Could be that a lot of this comes down to sleep .. sleep is important and seems to be disturbed in most mental disorders. By increasing Melatonin indirectly, boosting Serotonin and altering your sleep + the Tianeptine boosting neurogensis could prove to be a killer combination.

[Mind_Paralysis]

Tryptophan enhances Melatonin as well - as you probably know, the same pathway creates Melatonin after serotonin. Not quite the same pathway also creates the awesome NMDA-antagonist Kynurenic Acid! Good stuff. Well, if you don't have a psychosis-disorder that is... probably the deadliest compound around for those guys.

 

 

[jack black]

Any updates? I'm considering tianeptine too for similar issues. Thanks!

The only thing that gives me a pause is the vivid dreams and neck pain part that goes away with piracetam. Sure thing for excessive ACh. And I am sensitive to that.

Edited by jack black, 19 September 2016 - 12:45 PM.

[farware]

Sure, here are my updates

 

1) 5-HTP works great in combination with P5P to produce more Serotonin. P5P is needed for the conversion process 5HtP -> Serotonin

2) Tianeptine works great to enhance Serotonin uptake, making the increased Serotonin available to your body 

 

After you get used to it, there will be no more side effects (takes 1-2 weeks)

 

I ran out once and it was the first time I noticed a small urge to take them, so there is a small withdrawal effect but nothing you cant cope with unless you have been taking more than the therapeutic dosage which I adhered to. 

 

Currently dealing with some blood pressure issues (low) and I am not taking them but once I feel normal, I will continue taking them since they are neuroprotective and help me feel happy and normal

 

 

 

Edited by farware, 19 September 2016 - 01:33 PM.

[farware]

If you dont take the 5HTP its likely you will run into sleep schedule issues. Once I started taking 5HTP, adhering to a normal sleep schedule was easier. 

[Mind_Paralysis]

If you dont take the 5HTP its likely you will run into sleep schedule issues. Once I started taking 5HTP, adhering to a normal sleep schedule was easier. 

 

Curious... what could this be caused by? You mention 5htp and the SSRE-component to Tianeptine - now this SSRE-component appears to be fairly weak, however, it is NOT non-existant, which some have researchers seems to have assumed, since it's not a part of Tianeptine's antidepressant effects.

BUT...! The effects on asthma with Tianeptine is very real, and that effect has been proven to be caused by a drop in Serotonin serum-levels. So it's certainly part of the pharmacology.

 

Are you saying that Tianeptine's SSRE-effects may be interfering with the conversion of Serotonin into Melatonin? I can kind of see how that could be the case... the body may respond by lowering serum serotonin overall, which would then lead to an overall lowering of melatonin as well.

[jack black]

If you dont take the 5HTP its likely you will run into sleep schedule issues. Once I started taking 5HTP, adhering to a normal sleep schedule was easier.

Ok i got some tianeptine but didn't start yet. Do you take 5HTP at evening? I never had any effects from that. Maybe melatonin instead?

[jack black]

i started the tianeptine today (about 15mg of free acid form in the morning). it did have a subtle, but noticeable calming effect, but also made me tired and sleepy in the afternoon and i had to take a long nap (maybe because of poor sleep after some Friday night excesses).

 

i'm still unsure about the tryptophan or 5HTP supplementation thing.

 

according to this study: http://brain.oxfordj...tent/137/9/2600

autism is linked to impaired inhibition, and tryptophan depletion created improvement in brain function.

so, maybe tianeptine effects are due to it's serotonin depletion action?

if so, the tryptophan/5HTP supplementation would effectively turn the tianeptine action off.

 

if that's acceptable in PM, it would not be acceptable in AM, right?

 

looks like i answered my own question?

 

Edit:

looks like the best treatment for ASD is risperidone, tianeptine is way behind: http://bipolarnews.org/?p=2903

No, i won't take risperidone, but it's action is anti-serotonergic, so this reinforces my interest in serotonic depletion.

Edited by jack black, 02 October 2016 - 02:12 AM.

[Mind_Paralysis]

Hmm.

 

What sort of effect does the study measure though?

 

For Autists with severe issues of aggression, aka they have an extroverted instead of INTROverted persona, in combination with Social difficulties, they usually perscribe antipsychotics to control that part - and it works, just like it works for Borderline Aggression and incorrectly diagnosed ADHD-aggression - by cutting off emotional response and cognition to a great extent.

 

If that's what the study measures, impairment of aggression, then there's no wonder it has a great response-rate! Risperidone is one of the most sedating and effective antipsychotics there is. I would, however, question the effectiveness on the REAL symptoms of ASD - social cues sensitivity and sensoric hyperstimulation.

 

In essence, I think it's useless sh*t and the study is more biased than Dr. Wertham's memoirs. (wrote a moral book on the dangers of comicbooks and other youth-entertainment)

[jack black]

My update. The first 2 days of 10-15mg of free acid (once in AM) made me calmer, but more tired and apathetic. Yet harder to fall asleep despite 200mg 5HTP in PM.

The 3rd day is much better. Energy back to normal and better socially. Motivation OK, but could be better. Some neck/head tension (just like the OP). Had to take Tylenol for that. Will stop ALCAR and start piracetam tomorrow.

No weird dreams. I will take melatonin tonight.

BTW, good comments Stinkor on the antipsychotics in ASD.

Edited by jack black, 03 October 2016 - 07:52 PM.

[jack black]

I took it with piracetam and without ALCAR. No neck/head tension, but tired and not very productive today (day 4). I'm losing my patience to this. Will try higher dose next in case free acid has lower bioavailability.

I'm also adding low dose memantine to see if that combo works better.

Edited by jack black, 04 October 2016 - 06:03 PM.

[Mind_Paralysis]

Hmm, try and hold off on that Memantine - at least for just one day - you haven't properly evaluated higher-dose Tianeptine yet - 30 mg x 3 is a lot more than 15.

 

If Autism really IS related to overly sensitive opiate-receptors, you need to allow them to whatchamacallit downregulate - similar to how SSRI's help with anxiety by overloading the serotonergic circuitry to the point of shutdown.

 

Of course, there are all those autists which supposedly prefer Opiates as their #1 drug of abuse - so, err... take it easy as well. Don't want to get addicted.

 

(on the other hand, the glutamate-connection is there - Tianeptine is proof that the glutamate-system can be modulated by the opiate one. Whoda' thunk it! NMDA can modulate the opiate one - but noone used to think the reverse was true as well...!)

 

 

It should also be noted that EVERYONE reports brainfog from their first dose of Memantine... so before you get the right dose... it won't help you be productive. Quite the opposite.

[normalizing]

memantine caused short term memory problems each time i took it, about several or so irregularly on and off. not sure if brainfog is related to short term memory probs but that is what it caused

[Mind_Paralysis]

Brain fog is related to short-term memory problems, yes.

However, usually it seems to be related to other forms of memory-degradation as well - not just short-term memory. Spatial abilities seem to be impaired for some as well, basic reasoning too.

 

Some people even describe it as being drunk! Which I suppose could be related to the relation between NMDA-glutamate and GABA - you all of a sudden having more GABA inhibitory action than excitatory NMDA-action.

 

Memantine ain't sugar-pills, that's for sure!

 

(it's pretty damn good stuff though - shutting down excitatory transmission can be god-send if that transmission is f*cking haywire)

[normalizing]

stink, are you saying memantine can be a good option for alcohol withdrawal?

[Mind_Paralysis]

stink, are you saying memantine can be a good option for alcohol withdrawal?

 

There's a chance. It does help with resetting of tolerance, so it could help some with those effects.

 

Actually seems as if there is some promising research on this topic - have a look.

 

 

Memantine reduces alcohol drinking but not relapse in alcohol-dependent rats.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/25138717

 

Effect of memantine on cue-induced alcohol craving in recovering alcohol-dependent patients.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/17329479

 

A pilot double-blind treatment trial of memantine for alcohol dependence.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/17378918

 

(the trial just above seems to have found no effect on trying to quit, but possibly on relapse)

 

 

Naltrexone and Memantine Effects on Alcohol Drinking Behaviors

https://clinicaltria...how/NCT01519063

 

(probably best when combined with Naltrexone - double-effect)

 

Treatment of alcohol dependence in patients with co-morbid major depressive disorder – predictors for the outcomes with memantine and escitalopram medication

https://substanceabu.../1747-597X-3-20

 

 

Acute effects of memantine in combination with alcohol in moderate drinkers

http://link.springer...0213-003-1617-5

 

(strangely enough, Memantine blocks the dissociative effects of alcohol - curious, since COMPETITIVE NMDA-antagonists cause dissociation themselves - of course, Memantine ISN'T competitive, so that's a bigger diff then previously assumed, it would seem.)

 

[jack black]

Lol, I took 1/2 dose of memantine today already. While it made me a bit dumber, the office became brighter and more colorful. The mood improved and even I got some things done in afternoon. No wonder it's an ADHD drug. Will see how long this will work.

[jack black]

i started the tianeptine today (about 15mg of free acid form in the morning). it did have a subtle, but noticeable calming effect, but also made me tired and sleepy in the afternoon and i had to take a long nap (maybe because of poor sleep after some Friday night excesses).

 

i'm still unsure about the tryptophan or 5HTP supplementation thing.

 

according to this study: http://brain.oxfordj...tent/137/9/2600

autism is linked to impaired inhibition, and tryptophan depletion created improvement in brain function.

so, maybe tianeptine effects are due to it's serotonin depletion action?

if so, the tryptophan/5HTP supplementation would effectively turn the tianeptine action off.

 

if that's acceptable in PM, it would not be acceptable in AM, right?

 

looks like i answered my own question?

 

 

well, maybe my own answer was wrong?

after having disappointing results for tianeptine in AM + 5HTP (200mg) in PM, i took them both in AM and looks like better motivation and concentration.

I wish the OP would come back and chime in his own experience.

 

Lol, I took 1/2 dose of memantine today already. While it made me a bit dumber, the office became brighter and more colorful. The mood improved and even I got some things done in afternoon. No wonder it's an ADHD drug. Will see how long this will work.

 

to update that, the bad news is positive memantine effects on motivation went away on the second day. The good news is negative cognition effects went away on the 3rd day. The brighter colors effect lasts the longest, LOL.