47 replies to this topic

[jack black]

I hope farware (OP) doesn't mind my hijacking his thread (farware, feel free to post here, LOL). I stopped the tianeptine combo with 5htp and memantine this weekend for a drug holiday. While I felt ok, I became tired by Sunday evening. This is a problem for me because when I'm tired i do impulsive eating and don't have willpower to resist gluten and/or milk (lifelong addiction).

That set me back a lot. I restarted the combo yesterday and today I feel better (had better sleep too).

I still don't understand why tianeptine works better with 5htp. Before this I felt no benefits from 5htp.

[farware]

I hope farware (OP) doesn't mind my hijacking his thread (farware, feel free to post here, LOL). I stopped the tianeptine combo with 5htp and memantine this weekend for a drug holiday. While I felt ok, I became tired by Sunday evening. This is a problem for me because when I'm tired i do impulsive eating and don't have willpower to resist gluten and/or milk (lifelong addiction).

That set me back a lot. I restarted the combo yesterday and today I feel better (had better sleep too).

I still don't understand why tianeptine works better with 5htp. Before this I felt no benefits from 5htp.

 

No problem. 5-HTP is basically a significant Serotonin booster at the expense of Dopamine. In that sense 5HTP would work similar to SSRIs. By inhibiting the uptake, the brain increases the Serotonin concentration and downregulates the 5HTA2 receptors. 

 

5HT2A activation results in: OCD, depression, fatigue

 

The SSRIs that downregulate this receptor over time could therefore help to get rid off all that but the side effects are horrible and don't really address the core issues: Motivation and happiness. Motivation is regulated in part by dopamine.  

 

-------

 

Then we have Tianeptine. Tianeptine enhances Serotonin uptake rather than inhibiting it. This is good because it lowers the activity of serotonin and makes it more efficient. Some people with a certain gene defect have less efficient B6 conversion. Serotonin production requires P5P (the B6 coenzyme) and that means people won't respond well to SSRIs because their levels of Serotonin will drop so far that they get suicidal thoughts (Note: assumption, no idea if this is correct).

 

Proven: Tianeptine also enhances the stress response. 

 

Aside from that (and this is how it may fight depression) is that is activates adenosine receptors (proven). Ever did an allnighter and felt incredibly alive? Sleep deprivation results in adenosine buildup. Same principle here.

 

On top of that Tianeptine stimulates Dopamine release. No idea in what region.

 

Sum up Tianeptine

• - Serotonin enhancer (more effective processing)
• - Adenosine activation
• - Dopamine stimulation 
• - Blood flow regulation (assumption, because it fixes erectile dysfunction)
• - Neurogenesis

== CURED of depression

 

SSRIs do the contrary, no neurogenesis, no dopamine stimulation, no blood flow regulation and are highly addictive even at therapeutic doses. That's why I can only conclude that SSRI's are a scam by the pharma industry and that big money has an interest in keeping them alive. Why the FDA allows this product in 2016 on the market is beyond me. There are enough studies that prove that placebos work better. It does more harm than good. 

Edited by farware, 11 October 2016 - 03:59 PM.

[jack black]

OK, here is my thinking. tianeptine alone LOWERS 5ht in neurons instantly decreasing the abnormal 5ht2ar signaling that is typical for depression. however, that globally lowered 5ht makes (some) people tired or anxious due to decreased signaling via other 5ht receptors. 5htp prevents that and the net effect is more or less 5ht neutral and this effect predominates (IMHO, BDNF is the king):

 

 

tianeptine produces its antidepressant effects through indirect alteration of glutamate receptor activity (i.e., AMPA receptors and NMDA receptors) and release of BDNF, in turn affecting neural plasticity.^{[4][5][6][7][8][9]}

 

https://en.wikipedia...wiki/Tianeptine

 

this is completely different from SSRI that flood neurons with 5ht that causes slow down-regulation of 5ht2ar. this is why depression gets worse before it gets better with SSRI. farware explained it well above.

Edited by jack black, 12 October 2016 - 02:28 AM.

[jack black]

I noticed an interesting effect today. My job includes some teaching where I have to do public speaking for 3 hrs or longer. That makes me completely exhausted, both mentally and physically. Fortunately I have to do it only a couple of times a year. Today I did that and was only moderately tired. The combination works. Not every day though. Yesterday I lost my cool after a minor screw up and felt depressed and unproductive for the rest of the day.

Either way, cudos to the OP who came up with the combination.

[jack black]

Question. Has anyone noticed any effects of alcohol on this combo? The reason I ask I had some alcohol for 4 consecutive days (small to moderate, nothing excessive) and now I'm depressed for third day despite no change in every thing else.

[Mind_Paralysis]

Question. Has anyone noticed any effects of alcohol on this combo? The reason I ask I had some alcohol for 4 consecutive days (small to moderate, nothing excessive) and now I'm depressed for third day despite no change in every thing else.

 

I'm a tee-totaller, so I'm afraid I can't give you an answer to that...

 

I recommend you quit drinking completely, all-together though - most people with AS that I know either don't drink, or they drink far, far too much, resulting in bad effects.

 

Might be something to that, Alcohol does have a terribly complicated MOA, so it should in general be avoided when using other substances.

 

(reminds me again how much I wish alcohol was illegal... it's just everywhere when it comes to binding)

[jack black]

Yeah, that alcohol experience was interesting. Both the initial stimulation and later the almost week long depression. Now I see how alcohol doesn't mix well with my current stack.

I also came here to update the thread about getting some anxiety with higher doses of 5htp (200mg+). I stopped 5htp and the anxiety went away. Will try tianeptine alone or lower dose.

[normalizing]

tianeptines short half life is still such a huge problem in my opinion. but sadly enough, it will never be re modified for longer release version as it has become obsolete in all countries now

[jack black]

I'm taking tianeptine free acid that has slow absorption. Similarly is sulfate. The sodium salt has rapid absorption and has to taken more than once a day.

[normalizing]

yeh sodium part is quickly absorbed and i find myself dosing consistently constantly which is annoying and also pricey. i havent heard of any free acid or sulfate versions, i usually get the original package pills tho

[jack black]

update: added some 5HTP back as thianeptine alone made me slow and tired again. dunno why?

[normalizing]

maybe its the prolonged version you are using now? perhaps idea is to minimize the side effects hence why the company stayed with the sodium version

[PeaceAndProsperity]

No problem. 5-HTP is basically a significant Serotonin booster at the expense of Dopamine. In that sense 5HTP would work similar to SSRIs. By inhibiting the uptake, the brain increases the Serotonin concentration and downregulates the 5HTA2 receptors. 

 

5HT2A activation results in: OCD, depression, fatigue

 

The SSRIs that downregulate this receptor over time could therefore help to get rid off all that but the side effects are horrible and don't really address the core issues: Motivation and happiness. Motivation is regulated in part by dopamine.  

 

-------

 

Then we have Tianeptine. Tianeptine enhances Serotonin uptake rather than inhibiting it. This is good because it lowers the activity of serotonin and makes it more efficient. Some people with a certain gene defect have less efficient B6 conversion. Serotonin production requires P5P (the B6 coenzyme) and that means people won't respond well to SSRIs because their levels of Serotonin will drop so far that they get suicidal thoughts (Note: assumption, no idea if this is correct).

 

Proven: Tianeptine also enhances the stress response. 

 

Aside from that (and this is how it may fight depression) is that is activates adenosine receptors (proven). Ever did an allnighter and felt incredibly alive? Sleep deprivation results in adenosine buildup. Same principle here.

 

On top of that Tianeptine stimulates Dopamine release. No idea in what region.

 

Sum up Tianeptine

• - Serotonin enhancer (more effective processing)
• - Adenosine activation
• - Dopamine stimulation 
• - Blood flow regulation (assumption, because it fixes erectile dysfunction)
• - Neurogenesis

== CURED of depression

 

SSRIs do the contrary, no neurogenesis, no dopamine stimulation, no blood flow regulation and are highly addictive even at therapeutic doses. That's why I can only conclude that SSRI's are a scam by the pharma industry and that big money has an interest in keeping them alive. Why the FDA allows this product in 2016 on the market is beyond me. There are enough studies that prove that placebos work better. It does more harm than good. 

 

Great post, appreciated! 

I know I have high serotonin from my father's genetics and I know that both tryptophan and glutamine worsen my obsessiveness but I couldn't find which serotonin receptor causes the ocd - no study or website on Google to that effect that I could find, and the stupid idea that LOW serotonin CAUSES ocd is regurgitated again and again and again.

 

I also know that serotonin CAUSES depressive and "moody" moods in myself, as well as affective issues... now, could it be that this receptor is both responsible for the depression I get from tryptophan (5htp, SAMe, etc.) while also being responsible for things like flat or reduced affect, blunted emotions, etc?

[jack black]

OK folks. i found this super duper review on tianeptine that taught me a bunch of new things. when you read it it sounds like a miracle drug!

 

In summary, it downregulates corticosteroids, stress effects on brain, glutamate and NMDA,

upregulates AMPA and BDNF,

activates A₁ adenosine receptors.

The net effects are pro-cognition, pro-learning, and pro-memory.

 

Curiously there was nothing about serotonin itself and reduction of excessive glutamatergic activity was blocked by caffeine.

 

The last part is fascinating. looks like caffeine makes stress worse and can contribute to anxiety/depression/seizures via glutamatergic activity?

 

Activation of A₁ adenosine receptors by tianeptine would explain why it made me tired after all those years coffee drinking.

 

Maybe i should discontinue caffeine and then that 5HTP will not be needed (only melatonine)?

 

Here is the full text, enjoy: http://www.mdpi.com/...7/3/10/3143/htm

 

 

[jack black]

Curiously there was nothing about serotonin itself and reduction of excessive glutamatergic activity was blocked by caffeine.


Maybe i should discontinue caffeine and then that 5HTP will not be needed (only melatonine)?

I did some more digging and the reason they didn't mention serotonin is because the tianeptine impact on serotonin in brain has been debunked. It does lower it in blood though.

As for the second part, I stopped using caffeine and sure enough tianeptine works well itself.

[jack black]

to make the story short, i stopped tianeptine altogether for the sake of experimentation. the no stimulant regiment seems to work well so far. i suspect using tianeptine upregulated my dopamine receptors and i need no stimulants to function anymore. This is after years of caffeine abuse.

[farware]

to make the story short, i stopped tianeptine altogether for the sake of experimentation. the no stimulant regiment seems to work well so far. i suspect using tianeptine upregulated my dopamine receptors and i need no stimulants to function anymore. This is after years of caffeine abuse.

 

Hey jack, how are you doing?

 

I have also stopped taking Tianeptine in October because of potential longterm side effects but it is December almost and the effects that it had on me seem to be lasting. It seems to have raised my awareness level and definitely upregulates the Dopamine receptors (seem more sensitive so to speak). 

 

I am currently battling problems with my thyroid but aside from that things are ok. I acquired one of these Fitbit devices and am trying to do at least 7k to 10k steps a day now (got like 80k this week). So yea I am hopeful for next year to turn stuff around.  

[jack black]

Farware, thanks for asking. i'm doing fine and enjoy the increase in energy from tianeptine, even after i stopped it over a week ago. i still need something to mellow me out a bit. I have that slow MAOA and that creates a short fuse and stress. i'm trying Ginkgo for it's supposed 5HT2a antagonism, but its effects are limited and it gives me GI issues.

LOL, just ordered a bunch of new supplements for myself for Christmas to try out ($$$). I'll try your P5P/K2/taurine stack.