13 replies to this topic

[David Middlemiss]

Hi guys, this is only my second post here, (A real Newbie)

I have been diagnosed with a Phsychotic illness, Bipolar symptoms cycling up to healing the world and then dropping to hell like states

I wish never to expeience the later again

I have taken quetiapine fumerate for a long period, almost 20 years, between 400mg at worst, mainly 200mg as a rule or down to 100mg after stepping down my dosage with the help of my doctor,

after a peak emotions both Good and bad flooded me on a roller coaster ride that completely bottomed out over th last few months

I feel totally stripped, depressed and empty at this point in time,

It eventually totally bottomed after my partner and I had gone away and i'd forgotten to take my  medication and after one night suffered dramatic withdrawal and a massive trough, after a 9 month uppcycle/peak the drop and bottoming,

I'm reasonably stable at present but feel rung out, empty andat times still very unstable,

i feel numb and much of my personality has dissapeared, eratic, unable to focus, unable to keep appointments, reason, basal function has seemed to be the norm, as if my right and left brain have no connection likewise the rest of the brain regions.

I would like to stabilise, reset and rewire to an extent, using mainly natural substances, I'm pescatarian, and am prepared to collect and juice herbs, raw food diet, and although this is a pretty big ask would like some ideas of how to move forward as a productive member of society yet fulfil some goals in life,

I'd say I'm very open minded and would like to look at Dihexa and possible Brain Plasticity so interested in Valporic acid other ideas and looking for a New Programme to overwrite the old outmoded connections and anything to rewire thw addictive compulsive part of my brain, also i have become desensitised and would like to slowly bring empathy back into play with gentle drive and I'd say Cognative Behavioural Therapy, Brain wave therapy and am open to ideas

At the moment I'm thinking along the lines of

 

Selenium

Multi B Vits

L-Tyrosene

L-Theanine

L-Glutamine

DMAE

N-Acetyl-Cysteine

Flax Oil

CDP-Choline

 

and working out safe dosages and how to cycle

 

Possible Inclussions

Panax Ginseng

Eleuthrococcus Senticosus

Rhazya Stricta Decne

 

Many Thanks

David

[Mind_Paralysis]

Flax Oil has limited use, mate - humans, and many other mammals, are not efficient in converting ALA into DHA and EPA - which are the nootropic versions of Omega-3.

 

Look at replacing that with a proper Vegan Omega-3 supplement:
 

http://veganhealth.o...omega3#veganDHA

 

Valproic Acid I think is a good choice - especially because of the multiple modes of action - it doesn't just promoted BDNF and stabilize mood, but it's also a day-rhytm promoter, and sleep is important in Bipolar.

 

I would recommend cycling Valproic Acid with Agomelatine (Valdoxan) and possibly with an addition of Bupropion - incredibly enough, Bupropion (wellbutrin, voxra) have been shown to be less prone to triggering mania than SSRI, SNRI, MAOI and TCA's. Likewise for Agomelatine.

 

Why you would cycle with Agomelatine is because Valproic Acid reverses tolerance to Melatonin and Agomelatine! = ) Of course, it may be that you will only need Valproic Acid - so best to try that out first, on its own.

 

Here's some info on Bipolar and Agomelatine:

 

Adjunctive agomelatine therapy in the treatment of acute bipolar II depression: a preliminary open label study

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3575211/

 

Agomelatine adjunctive therapy for acute bipolar depression: preliminary open data.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17845278

 

Low Risk for Switch to Mania during Treatment with Sleep Promoting Antidepressants.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/25599460

 

 

 

[David Middlemiss]

Hey Stinkorninjor, that is Great advice,

Will look at Good Vegan Omegas, the article was very informative,

The Valporic Acid is looking Good, I'll se my psychiatrist this month and see about possibly adding it to my prescription to trial if not I'll source some another way

I can then think about the Aglomelatine,

How do I cycle in general as I'm not familiar as yet,
I know the mechanism basically I think,
I stops a resistance or dependence building up and allows to replace any deficiencies incurred by volatile chemicals etc
Thanks for your time, lots to begin with,

[Mind_Paralysis]

I am not entirely certain as to how you dose Valproic Acid to reverse tolerance, but since you would be using it for mood-stabilization as well, that may not be relevant to you.

 

The impression I get from the trials is that you only need lower doses of Valproate to reverse tolerance - but that's just a feel that I have.

 

 

Here, have a look at the studies I base my idea on, you may be able to figure it out better than me:

 

"Valproic acid up-regulates melatonin MT1 and MT2 receptors and neurotrophic factors CDNF and MANF in the rat brain."
http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/22243807/

"Novel targets for valproic acid: up-regulation of melatonin receptors and neurotrophic factors in C6 glioma cells."
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16313512

"Regional upregulation of hippocampal melatonin MT2 receptors by valproic acid: therapeutic implications for Alzheimer's disease."
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24909617

"Human melatonin MT1 receptor induction by valproic acid and its effects in combination with melatonin on MCF-7 breast cancer cell proliferation."
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17303109

 

 

Since you are bipolar, it may be that you don't actually need to cycle this at all - just stay on your dose of Valproate, and the Agomelatine will keep hitting your MT-receptors pretty hard - the CDNF and MANF will certainly come in handy.

Edited by Stinkorninjor, 16 July 2016 - 08:57 AM.

[David Middlemiss]

Great, I'll have a chat to my psych and do a little more research myself, sounds promising, I'll let you know how it goes,

The supplements I've started to use listed in above posts (are those that I believe will work based on my limited point of view and chosen on their overall combined/group/ holistic affect) Seem to be working quite welll,

although sleep patterns had fluctuated, their was a slight increase in mania although after a little jiggling all seem quite stable and mood seems to be improving, smoothest I've felt in a long while,

I've mixed raw Macha (green tea) Turmeric, Ginger and raw cocoa and encapsulated them, I'm going to take them 3 per day just for perks,

Looking at other therapies along side to try and create a more solid base for to build upon,

[sativa]

Hi,

It would be a good idea to find out the state of your immune system as this is implicated in many issues. Also, certain supplements and herbs/spices can further imbalance your immune system further aggravating the situation. This site has most of the info you need as well as how to go about resolving the imbalance.

Th1 and th2 balance:

https://selfhacked.c...-th2-dominance/

Th17 aspect:

https://selfhacked.c...014/10/27/th17/

[David Middlemiss]

Hi sativa

 

I'll possibly try that, I would like to find any defficiencies I.e vitamins, minerals etc to boot, which tests would best asses the state of play please as I'm not sure where to start?

 

There had been the  beginning of a reasonable suppliment and healthy eating regime, I've been very resillient of late and had no symptoms of physical illness other than migrane type headaches quite regularly, (although since the breakdown and this current start to recovery focusing new vitamins and minerals toward brain and body system satbilisation etc those have diminished too) and I had not been touched by illnesses although many people around me had been suffering cold, flu and sickness viruses,

As yet I have had no Ill affects, although most health and diet related goodness had fallen by the wayside since this recent crash/nervous breakdown, I have started to improve and Look after myself again.

For the most part I beleive the issues are due to the mental imbalances, micro chemicals poss defficiencies etc,

 

the Bi polar type symptoms are probably brain and body chemistry defficiencies, past poor lifestyle choices, undealtwith trauma and problems flagged up by eratic behaviour and then causing/exacerbated by sleep and sleep paterns after a hyper manic episode leading into a crash cycle,

 

 

[David Middlemiss]

Hi Stinkorninjor,

First Thanks  very much for your help and advice thus far and all the info,

 

Ive been taking apple cider vinegar daily,

I also Chaga mushroom double extract and 2 commercial supps on top of my stack below,

 

One for Mental stability and mood enhancement taken twice daily

 

Containing: Licorice Root, Lavender, saint Johns Wort, Valerian Root, Lemon Balm Herb and Hops, ( I'm working on my own version of this and will encapsulate this myself)

 

This one is fortnight on, fortnight off for body mind and nervous system,

This is split so Half the doses stated,one half in the morning and the other mid afternoon

 

Containing:  Vitamin C 2000mg (3333% RDA), Holy Basil 500mg, Ashwagandha 300mg,

Rhodiola Rosea 300mg, Magnesium 300mg (100% RDA), Zinc 10mg (66% RDA), Selenium 200mcg

 

I liked the sound of Galantamines affects on both positive and negative affects of bi polar and schizophrenia , I had read some studies but cant remember which thread or the web addy of the studies

so have decided to try it,

so 8mg per day on a morning

 

And my normal stack

 

Multi B Vits

L-Tyrosene

L-Theanine

L-Glutamine

DMAE

N-Acetyl-Cysteine

Flax Oil (Once Finished Will Go On To Sustainable High Quality Fish Based Supp as You Advised)

Choline-Bitrate

 

I had started taking most of this together so did not know what was working and started to feel a little weird, spacey  so I have cut back almost stopped and am going to start off one or two things at a time and poss keep notes,

 

Have stopped for a couple of days now and feel terrible so going to start basic and see how we go

[Mind_Paralysis]

Dude... You're taking so much stuff... all these herbs and plant-extracts...

 

I'm honestly not a fan of this. At all.

 

Mainly because with plants, you never quite know what you're getting, now do you? The dosages and balances of substances, are all over the place. This is one of the reasons why I'm NOT a fan of medical marijuana - it's not accurate enough to be used this way.

 

The only way to get the right control, is to use synthesized versions of the active cannabinoids - that's how you do research. I think there's a tremendous potential in the active compounds of Marijuna though - CBG is the one I see a big, varied use of.

 

But enough of my ranting. Because of my stance, I alas, don't know much about these herbs - I only know surface stuff, and you're taking so many, so I don't even know where to begin. Sorry dude.

 

All I can say is that you're on the right track with stopping everything and trying them one by one - that way, you can actually get some kind of feel for what you're doing.

I'd recommend quitting all supplements for a while as well - so as to not pollute your results from trying the herbs.

 

 

Now, did you talk to your doctor about Valproic Acid? Have you given it a proper read and some thought? I really do think it could be very good for you - has all of the right properties, imho.

 

Oh yeah, I think you should check out the CERC-501 thread here on the forums - Kappa-antagonism has the effect of making your past negative experiences affect you less - most definitely not any risk of triggering mania either.

 

And you're into reprogramming, yeah? If you first use CERC-501, and then use Dihexa, the reprogramming could theoretically take place - first, you decrease the negative response you have from remembering the events, enabling you to learn how to deal with them - THEN... you enhance your learning, meaning that abolishing these negative emotions surrounding negative events will go even faster! : D

 

Seriously - I think this could be the future of PTSD -treatment - a 1-2 punch that pretty much takes the events apart.

Edited by Stinkorninjor, 07 August 2016 - 10:50 PM.

[David Middlemiss]

Cool cool

 

docs app is tomorrow so thats first on the agenda

 

think the main culprit has been galantamine as took 8mg this morning and weird queezy feel so will carry on abstinance

 

Will try to match symptoms to receptors etc and try and target one by one with supps with a longer period with one at a time , keep records etc (softly softly)

 

checked the CERC-501 thread, I have reservations, just the learning from the neg experiences, but I guess the learning stays and the moving forward becomes easier/better,

 

The Dihexa really sounds Good to me and yes I agree

 

I also think phsychiatry/health as a whole could become a suplimental/dietry science

 

I'll keep you posted

 

 

[Mind_Paralysis]

Cool cool. That does sound like a pretty good plan! = )

 

I can see how you would be a bit apprehensive about CERC-501 and other Kappa-antagonists - it's such a new way of doing it - altering learned behavioural response to environment. Sort of like CBT but as a drug!
Working in a sort of reverse way of traditional opiates - blunting punishment instead of enhancing reward.

[David Middlemiss]

yea, I think some circumstances of fear of punishment are extremely helpful in moderating behaviour, It would have to be a conscise list and possibly aided by someone willing to take part in the process,

I havent ruled it out,

 

phsyc has opened the doorway for valporic acid start dose 200mg daily, although the blunting of quetiapine is quite heavy on concentration, creativity and expansiveness as is bi polar/phsycotic disorder and I really dont like the idea of further blunting or of long term dependant usage

 

I suppose the CIRC-501 and Kappa-antagonists would blunt the punishment and Dihexa could theoretically help rewire the reward pathways, I have to throw in that I have been an addictive personality in the past with sex addiction as my worst and most uncontrolable issue

so not sure if naltraxone may help with the opiate like similarities on the brain,

 

Open to ideas?

 

yea, I think some circumstances of fear of punishment are extremely helpful in moderating behaviour, It would have to be a conscise list and possibly aided by someone willing to take part in the process,

I havent ruled it out,

 

phsyc has opened the doorway for valporic acid start dose 200mg twice daily, although the blunting of quetiapine is quite heavy on concentration, creativity and expansiveness as is bi polar/phsycotic disorder and I really dont like the idea of further blunting or of long term dependant usage

 

I suppose the CIRC-501 and Kappa-antagonists would blunt the punishment and Dihexa could theoretically help rewire the reward pathways, I have to throw in that I have been an addictive personality in the past with sex addiction as my worst and most uncontrolable issue

so not sure if naltraxone may help with the opiate like similarities on the brain,

 

Open to ideas?

 

[Mind_Paralysis]

Ask your psychiatric doctor if you can change the Quetiapine to Rexulti (Brexpiprazole). It's a less overall blunting medication - it's actually allowed for use as treatment of depression as well - the first antipsychotic to get that. It may not actually BE a traditional atypical - more Serotonin Dopamine Activity Modulator - SDAM. A third-gen antipsychotic if you like.

 

The blunting could be less of a problem then.

[David Middlemiss]

Cheers again, I'll check out its profile and look at a possible switch.

 

Do you think there'd be any withdrawal or instability with coming off quetiapine?

 

I know thats going to be a me specific point and I guess a suck it and see approach is probably best!