72 replies to this topic

[tjcbs]

Piracetam has never done anything good for me, and if i take more than one tablet i start feeling some negative effects.
On a hunch I tried a VERY small dose, ~75mg. Almost immediately I felt the "brain waking up" sensation others report. I tried it again the next day, and i got the same result.

There are 2 explanations for this:

*A subset of the population metabolizes piracetam more efficiently than the rest, and normal doses push them past the peak of the inverted U dose response curve.
*Placebo effect.

I feel like the first is at least feasable, as typical piracetam doses are insanely high for a psychoactive mediaction. It could be that most people metabolise
it very poorly, which would account for the much lower doses required for the other racetams. However at this point i'm still not sure which is correct.

Anyone else who is a poor responder to piracetam may want to try this and report.

[synaesthetic]

I just tried a micro-dose of around 100mg (I normally take 800mg at a time) and I like it more than 800. Mild stimulation but it's going nicely with caffeine instead of making me feel like i'm over concentrating. I think for myself, I'm going to keep taking these smaller doses of piracetam as I enjoy the effects more.

[Centurion]

800mg of piracetam screws me over. Ill try chopping my tablets up lol

[synaesthetic]

I kept reading about people doing such high levels of piracetam I thought I had something wrong with me, I'm feeling so much better now on a more appropriate dose!

[wild2side]

I've had the best results ever form piracetam at 400mg x2 a day.
Anything more than that (even taking just one 800mg tablet a day) pushes me over to the overstimulated part of the inverted-U.
I think the headache problems some people experience with piracetam have a lot to do with overdosing. I too had the same problems, and adding choline like everyone here was suggesting only made things worse.
I also found very good results with an even smaller dose of piracetam (200mg x2 a day) and a small dose of vinpocentine (5mg x1 a day). I have the improved verbal recall from piracetam, and an overall cognitive boost from vinpo, and its not overstimulating.

[Ghostrider]

Strange, I have taken up to 4 grams of piracetam in one dose and felt absolutely nothing. Tried this with Relentless Improvement and another brand of piracetam. I feel nothing from high dosages of oxiracetam and aniracetam either. Nothing from vinpo. The only nootropic that kinda seems to work is pyritinol, maybe, but even if the effect is beyond placebo, it is still quite weak. Honestly, all the nootropics I have tried seem to do absolutely nothing for me. Green tea seems to be the best nootropic for me.

[xanadu]

Piracetam rarely shows it's effects after one dose for those who are not regular users. Most people need to take it for days or weeks to see the results and a few report no results at all. I've been a skeptic of the so called "attack" doses that are usually recommended. Some people may need those large doses but certainly not all. I've cut back my dosage of piracetam and it still feels very stimulating. I was taking 1.2 gm a day and cut back to less than 800mg while still getting the same benefits but not feeling as overstimulated. I may try cutting back even more. I doubt that 100mg would work but I will experiment.

Piracetam is a subtle drug and those who are looking for something that hits fast and has a clear cut effect will be disappointed.

[goedikey]

If you would rsearch this site, you would find that Piracetam has vey different effect fron Aniracteam in my opinion. Pira made me sleepy whee Ani made me feel quite well with some lecithin.

[medievil]

hey

i started taking piracetam yesterday, 1200mg, but i'm feeling overstimulated, so i will try to reduce my dose and post the results here

[EmbraceUnity]

I started with 1600mg, but reduced to 800mg and felt much better. If I can reduce my dosage even further that would be great.

I just wish it were easier to determine the effectiveness of these things.

[trevyn]

I just wish it were easier to determine the effectiveness of these things.

You could run your own little mini-study. Make your own visually identical placebo pills, label two bags #1 and #2, then get someone else to put the placebos in one bag and the piracetam in another. Start dosing from one bag and do some cognitive functioning tests and record the results. 2 weeks (or whatever) later, switch bags. Analyze the data and look for significant differences. Then, have the person tell you which bag is which. Also important for this other person not to know which number bag you are currently taking. Voila, self double-blind testing.

Tried a 100mg dose myself this morning. I think placebo is as strong as any effects at this point.

[EmbraceUnity]

Good idea. I just found someone who might be interested in doing such an experiment with me actually

[edward]

Interesting, I know that very high doses of Piracetam make me sleepy for some odd reason even with proper choline dosage. 800-1600 seems to be a good dosage for me, anything higher and I get weird. I really haven't tried anything lower simply because of the crazy dosages of 4 - 8 grams I have seen.

[stillalive]

Intresting theory with small doses. Think I will try it someday too, my resultats with high doses weren't really any good. When I started supelementing with more efficeient choline sources(used choline biutrate first) like GPC, ALCAR I got really depresed. Don't know if it was the pira/choline which did that but I felt a lot better some weeks after stoping taking them so I assume they were at least a part of the problem.

Do you take any choline with such small doses of Piracetam?

[revnik]

Does anyone have any new thought on the microdosages?
800mg is to high for me personally, makes me lethargic/tired. I like 2x 400mg/day or 4x 200mg (which seems even better).

I'm having simular experiences with Hydergine, I need to take it liquid in small 0,25/0,50 mg dosages or I get totally spaced out and lethargic...

Edited by revnik, 20 May 2008 - 08:30 PM.

[revnik]

Does anyone have any new thought on the microdosages?
800mg is to high for me personally, makes me lethargic/tired. I like 2x 400mg/day or 4x 200mg (which seems even better).

I'm having simular experiences with Hydergine, I need to take it liquid in small 0,25/0,50 mg dosages or I get totally spaced out and lethargic...

EDIT
I didn't have enough choline in my diet, DMAE solved it. I now can take normal dosage (4x 800mg)

Edited by revnik, 23 May 2008 - 03:19 PM.

[Chemist]

Revnik, were you taking choline before the DMAE. I get very sleepy when using piracetam 4000 mg tpo qday. Even with choline I still get sleepy.

[revnik]

Just lower your dosage, so did I. Try 1200 - 2400 mg a day. Tiredness might be due to overstimulation.

Revnik, were you taking choline before the DMAE. I get very sleepy when using piracetam 4000 mg tpo qday. Even with choline I still get sleepy.

[mikeinnaples]

I was taking 1.2g 2x/day with 310mg of Choline 2x/day .....plus 900mg Alcar 2x/day, and lecithin granules (mixing reveratrol and silymarin with it). No deprynl as I am still unsure about the best legit product.

The result: It seemed to slow my thinking down considerably and my ability to focus was completely wrecked. I stopped taking it a a week ago just to see and I have returned to normal (no alcar/choline/piracetem)


This was not a problem before when I was taking 1.2g / day total with 620mg choline total in the morning. It seemed to hyperstimulate me some, which wasn't a bad thing. Looks like I went completely in the wrong direction and should have split the current dose to 2x/day instead of doubling me effective daily dose of the racetam. I had wanted to keep the same effect going through out the day and evening, but instead I just hindered my work. (I am an application architect, requires heavy logical thinking and ability to focus ....lol)

[Ribs]

Wanted to add to this topic --I'm planning on trying this Microdosing.

I pulled from this link (here) The following, which seems to imply (at least in this experiment) that the higher dosage levels only had a anxiolytic (anti-anxiety) effect, and not a nootropic effect - the effects mutually exclusive, in this case.

[The nootropic and anxiolytic properties of different doses of piracetam].
[Article in Russian]
Voronina TA, Molodavkin GM, Borlikova GG, Ostrovskaia RU, Tushmalova NA, Naznamov GG
Laboratory of Psychopharmacology, Russian Academy of Medical Sciences, Moscow, Russia.

The effect of piracetam at various doses on the behavioral and electrophysiological characteristics was studied, including the development of passive and active avoidance conditional reflexes in rats, their behavior in conflict situations, and the transcallosal evoked response (TER) in rabbit brain. In the dose range from 50 to 300 mg/kg, piracetam improved the avoidance performance of both types and produced a dose-dependent increase in the TER amplitude, but did not affect the behavior of rats in conflict situations. As the drug dose was increased to 400-1000 mg/kg, the positive learning influence disappeared (sometimes the effect was even negative) and the TER increase changed to decrease. In contrast, the conflict situation tests revealed pronounced anxiolytic activity of piracetam at elevated doses. Thus, the nootropic and anxiolytic effects of piracetam (and, probably, of the other tranquilizers as well) do not coexist and are significantly shifted relative to one another on the dose scale, being probably realized via different mechanisms.

--------

Seems to speak even more to the idea that accurate dosing is important...

[2012pharmD]

What that study [on rats] is saying is that 50mg-300mg of Drug per kilogram-BodyWeight was seen as the best range for learning. Learning in the case of rats was avoiding something bad - a small electric shock I'm guessing.

If you held that proportion [and you should NOT] & applied it to people, you'd have gigantic doses:

I weigh 80 kg. 50mg/kg for me is 4 grams a day. 300mg/kg is 24 grams a day. "Too much" would start at 32 grams/day.

Several people here seem to get good effect from 4-5 g/day total dose. One space-cadet/Neo-sees-the-Matrix [you decide] has a blast at the top of the above range. Many pre-made capsule-product versions out there recommend less than a gram per day total dose.

What you really want is repeatable & reliable evidence. Something like a website counting game, pattern-recognition game - something with a score. Starting dose at the very low end of what "feels" like an improvement, considering there is nothing from the FDA to go on, sounds like a good idea.

[acantelopepope]

I've been reading about the effects of Piracetam on cholinergic receptor density... From what I'm gathering so far, if you take Piracetam for about two weeks, your acetylcholine levels will be naturally higher, and need less Piracetam/Choline stimulation to maintain them.

Therefore by continuing to supplement at a static dose, you're overstimulating yourself, and should, theoretically, start to see undesirable effects once you pass the threshold.

This is a theory. But it makes sense in my situation, and like I said, there are several studies definitively stating parts of this.

[Johann]

I've been reading about the effects of Piracetam on cholinergic receptor density... From what I'm gathering so far, if you take Piracetam for about two weeks, your acetylcholine levels will be naturally higher, and need less Piracetam/Choline stimulation to maintain them.

Therefore by continuing to supplement at a static dose, you're overstimulating yourself, and should, theoretically, start to see undesirable effects once you pass the threshold.

This is a theory. But it makes sense in my situation, and like I said, there are several studies definitively stating parts of this.

That is sort of what I'm seeing w/ Ani.  Smaller doses seem to lead to more clarity while maintaining a 1000 mg/ day dose tends to get me a tad foggy. 

[NeuroGuy]

http://www.nootropic...am/dopsero.html

The low-dose effect (100 mg/kg, intraperitoneally) of the nootropic drug pyracetam on some DA-ergic neurochemical parameters of the rat striatum, as well as on the locomotion activity of rats were studied using the "open-field" test. It was shown that pyracetam (l mM) in vitro increases the K(+)-stimulated (28 mM) DA release from the perfused isolated striatum to 148 +/- 14 pmole/mg tissue compared to the control animals: 101 +/- 10 pmole /mg (p < 0.05, Student's t-test). Pyracetam in a dose of 100 mg/kg increased the DA level and decreased the 5-HT level in the striatum homogenates: DA- to 121% and 5-HT-to 81% (p < 0.05), respectively. The content of DOPAC, HVA and 5-HIAA in the tissue remained the same. In addition to the mentioned effects pyracetam promoted the locomotion activity of rats in the "open field" -putative behavioral marker of the striatum DA-ergic function. Thus pyracetam is capable of modifying the DA-ergic activity of the rat striatum, thus stimulating the neuromediator release.

[bobman]

Piracetam has never done anything good for me, and if i take more than one tablet i start feeling some negative effects.
On a hunch I tried a VERY small dose, ~75mg. Almost immediately I felt the "brain waking up" sensation others report. I tried it again the next day, and i got the same result.

There are 2 explanations for this:

*A subset of the population metabolizes piracetam more efficiently than the rest, and normal doses push them past the peak of the inverted U dose response curve.
*Placebo effect.

I feel like the first is at least feasable, as typical piracetam doses are insanely high for a psychoactive mediaction. It could be that most people metabolise
it very poorly, which would account for the much lower doses required for the other racetams. However at this point i'm still not sure which is correct.

Anyone else who is a poor responder to piracetam may want to try this and report.

That's interesting. Although it would be more likely that you metabolize it more slowly rather than more quickly. Essentially the metabolites are usually inactive, so unless piracetam's metabolite is the nootropic, I doubt it. You could be more sensitive to changes in your brain chemistry, rather than having an unusually slow metabolism. In fact, the dose difference is rather huge, which would mean you have a great impairment of Cytochrome P450 or whatever else is responsible for piracetam's metabolism.

[chrono]

I've read in many places that piracetam isn't metabolized within the body, i.e. it's excreted unchanged. Don't have a reliable reference for this atm, though.

I think a more likely explanation of this can be put down to individual differences in the cholinergic system. Piracetam enhances utilization of ACh, so depending on any number of factors in the complex system of acetylcholine biosynthesis (enzyme/transporter activity, precursor availability), a "normal" dose might have too much of an effect and push part of this equation out of balance.

Of course, that's just one explanation. Piracetam has many effects in the brain, and some people might be sensitive to some of the others. But I think choline is the most likely candidate.

[SATANICAT]

Hmmm.. Interesting stuff about the 2 week threshold. I've taken piracetam 3 times and every time I've felt awful, had the inability to focus, tension, anxiety, etc. And, yesterday I took my highest dose as a somewhat attack dose (4g) and it made me edgy and pissed of at EVERYTHING; I was watching a Disney movie and it was pissing me off. Then I felt awful and fell asleep 4 hours before my normal bedtime. Then, I had a nightmare for the first time in 4 years, with every little detail making complete sense. Since this last dose of piracetam I've decided to put the bottle away for a while. But now that you say it, a microdose may make sense. I may be getting WAY too overstimulated and making myself ill. I'll report my micro-dose in the next couple of days. I'm just worried that another dose of piracetam is going to wreck me out for the rest of the day >.>

[chrono]

Hmmm.. Interesting stuff about the 2 week threshold. I've taken piracetam 3 times and every time I've felt awful, had the inability to focus, tension, anxiety, etc. And, yesterday I took my highest dose as a somewhat attack dose (4g) and it made me edgy and pissed of at EVERYTHING; I was watching a Disney movie and it was pissing me off. Then I felt awful and fell asleep 4 hours before my normal bedtime. Then, I had a nightmare for the first time in 4 years, with every little detail making complete sense. Since this last dose of piracetam I've decided to put the bottle away for a while. But now that you say it, a microdose may make sense. I may be getting WAY too overstimulated and making myself ill. I'll report my micro-dose in the next couple of days. I'm just worried that another dose of piracetam is going to wreck me out for the rest of the day >.>

Have you tried taking choline along with your dose of piracetam? A couple of people who've described this same irritability (including myself, to a certain extent) have found it ameliorated by concurrent choline supplementation.

[SATANICAT]

I forgot to include that I took Alpha-GPC or Citicoline everytime. AND I just went and took a microdose 20min ago. I took a 800mg capsule and put it in a line (like cocaine addicts do) and took about a fifth of it (by licking it off of paper, not snorting). Either it was the bad taste that stimulated me, or it's actually working 0.o! I'm incredibly focused right now, and I didn't take a source of choline with it. Strange... It's probably just the placebo, but I feel really good and I just got off a 9 hour shift :D This theory is making me optimistic!


Edit: I was thinking and a micro-dose WITHOUT a choline source seems to do the trick. I haven't tried taking any choline yet, but I have a feeling that it probably wont do anything. And, I'm not irritable.

Edited by SATANICAT, 21 June 2010 - 12:27 AM.

[unregistered_user]

Hmm, this is making me want to back down on my ~2g per day intake. Instead of 700-800mg doses I'll try 200mg and report back.