72 replies to this topic

[Rags847]

Hmmm.. Interesting stuff about the 2 week threshold. I've taken piracetam 3 times and every time I've felt awful, had the inability to focus, tension, anxiety, etc. And, yesterday I took my highest dose as a somewhat attack dose (4g) and it made me edgy and pissed of at EVERYTHING; I was watching a Disney movie and it was pissing me off. Then I felt awful and fell asleep 4 hours before my normal bedtime. Then, I had a nightmare for the first time in 4 years, with every little detail making complete sense. Since this last dose of piracetam I've decided to put the bottle away for a while. But now that you say it, a microdose may make sense. I may be getting WAY too overstimulated and making myself ill. I'll report my micro-dose in the next couple of days. I'm just worried that another dose of piracetam is going to wreck me out for the rest of the day >.>

Have you tried taking choline along with your dose of piracetam? A couple of people who've described this same irritability (including myself, to a certain extent) have found it ameliorated by concurrent choline supplementation.

Choline can also increase depression. You need to feel it out and try totally dropping or adding choline on certain days.

Edited by Rags847, 21 June 2010 - 04:24 PM.

[unregistered_user]

Has anyone had much luck taking piracetam without supplementing choline?

[chrono]

Has anyone had much luck taking piracetam without supplementing choline?

Sometimes. But for a more complete answer, I'll direct you to this thread: piracetam without ANY choline source

[aLurker]

This is something you might want to read: http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/6415738
Especially this sentence: "Piracetam at 4.8 g/day had a more rapid onset of action on behavioral variables than 2.4 g/day, but its therapeutic effect tended to diminish at 12 weeks, possibly as the result of overstimulation."

I started taking Piracetam yesterday and is currently trying 2g per day; 1g in the morning and 1g in the afternoon. I have no idea if this is a good dosage but if the study above is any indication the best dosage for long-term use of Piracetam is probably closer to 2.4g than 4.8g. I'm just hoping this is a good compromise between effectiveness and long-term maintainability. Any evidence which points to a better dosage is very much welcome.

I also want to mention that there is evidence that Piracetam is dose dependent and I haven't really seen any studies in humans indicating that the "micro doses" some of you take is effective beyond the placebo effect.

Here is a summery of a Russian study called "Therapeutic Efficacy of Nootropil Different Doses in Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder"
Summary
Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) is the most common cause of behavioral and learning problems in childhood. Therapeutic efficiency of nootropil (piracetam) in two different doses has been evaluated in the open control study of 80 children with ADHD, 70 boys and 10 girls, aged 6-11 years, being divided into 3 groups. Two groups received nootropil, as a monotherapy, for a month: 1st group (30 patients)--in the dosage of 70 mg/kg daily and 2nd group (30 patients)--40 mg/kg daily orally. The control group of 20 patients did not receive any treatment. All children were examined twice with one month interval. A procedure of assessment included of structured questionnaire to parents, neurological examination with scored evaluation of subtle signs and psychological testing. Nootropil therapy in ADHD children resulted in the improvement of behavioral characteristics, motor coordination as well as continuous, selective and divided attention. A response rate was 60% in patients received 70 mg/kg of nootropil and 43% for nootropil dosage of 40 mg/kg. The results of the study suggest more considerable positive therapeutic effects of nootropil higher dose on behavioral, motor and attention characteristics in children with ADHD.

[health_nutty]

Bump, are people still having good effects from microdosing?

[unregistered_user]

I've been microdosing for 3 days but I'm going back to 1g doses to see how that compares. The microdosing didn't seem any more effective for me.

[health_nutty]

As much as I want to believe the bigger doses are better, I'm coming to the conclusion I need smaller doses (or Piracetam isn't for me). I need more time to figure this out.

I'm more clear headed in the morning than after taking Piracetam. It just feels like i'm ON something even at 400mg, and not in a positive way. I'll give even lower doses 100-200mg a try before I give up on it.

[aLurker]

What that study [on rats] is saying is that 50mg-300mg of Drug per kilogram-BodyWeight was seen as the best range for learning. Learning in the case of rats was avoiding something bad - a small electric shock I'm guessing.

If you held that proportion [and you should NOT] & applied it to people, you'd have gigantic doses:

I weigh 80 kg. 50mg/kg for me is 4 grams a day. 300mg/kg is 24 grams a day. "Too much" would start at 32 grams/day.

Since I just learned how to do this I might as well apply it here too:
According to http://www.fasebj.or...nt/22/3/659.pdf here is what those dosages translates to:
(rat dosage)*(3/37)*(your body weight)
For instance 50-300 mg/kg for rats would mean that I as a 70 kg human would have an optimal dosage between 284 and 1703 mg.
Now this is obviously not that reliable since these are animal studies and I haven't even read them, but it's a lot more feasible than 32g. Though I really wouldn't use these calculations to rationalize micro dosing. There are studies done in humans, focus on those.

[health_nutty]

What that study [on rats] is saying is that 50mg-300mg of Drug per kilogram-BodyWeight was seen as the best range for learning. Learning in the case of rats was avoiding something bad - a small electric shock I'm guessing.

If you held that proportion [and you should NOT] & applied it to people, you'd have gigantic doses:

I weigh 80 kg. 50mg/kg for me is 4 grams a day. 300mg/kg is 24 grams a day. "Too much" would start at 32 grams/day.

Since I just learned how to do this I might as well apply it here too:
According to http://www.fasebj.or...nt/22/3/659.pdf here is what those dosages translates to:
(rat dosage)*(3/37)*(your body weight)
For instance 50-300 mg/kg for rats would mean that I as a 70 kg human would have an optimal dosage between 284 and 1703 mg.
Now this is obviously not that reliable since these are animal studies and I haven't even read them, but it's a lot more feasible than 32g. Though I really wouldn't use these calculations to rationalize micro dosing. There are studies done in humans, focus on those.

I think human study dosages are a good place to *start*. However in my case those dosages were giving me the opposite of what I want, so I adjusted from there. Also keep in mind that most of those studies were not done in "normal" people.

[aLurker]

I mixed up the values for mice (3) and rats (6) so the corrected math in the post above is:
(rat dosage)*(6/37)*(your body weight)
For instance 50-300 mg/kg for rats would mean that I as a 70 kg human would have an optimal dosage between 568 and 3405 mg.

(comment: Hey, I'm actually in the middle with my daily 2 g then.)

[aLurker]

Effect of piracetam, a nootropic agent, on rat brain monoamines and prostaglandins.

Two doses of the drug were used, a lower dose (20 mg/kg ip) and a higher dose (100 mg/kg, ip), the latter being known to exert a facilitatory effect on learning and memory. Piracetam produced a dose-related effect on rat brain serotonin (5HT) and noradrenaline (NA), with the lower dose inducing a decrease in 5HT levels and an increase in NA concentrations. The higher dose of piracetam produced the opposite effect. Dopamine (DA) levels were not significantly affected. The lower dose of the drug attenuated 5HT turnover and augmented that of NA, whereas the higher dose of piracetam produced the reverse effects, in clorgyline treated rats.

I know from personal experience that too much Piracetam is a bad thing, but this seems to indicate that too little Piracetam could also be a bad thing. Though we shouldn't assume it works exactly the same way in humans.

But it might be a Goldilocks dilemma where you have to pick the right dosage.

Edited by aLurker, 02 July 2010 - 07:32 PM.

[Saradiart]

This thread is encouraging.

My past usage of piracetam left me depressed because it made me manic and hopeful at first, only to stop working. I felt like I lost my chance then!

My second try with piracetam months later gave me water retention and some kidney pain and didn't affect me at all :( Might have been choline, but I don't know.

Let's give this a third try and will give all kinds of doses a fair try. At least I hope lower doses won't make me retain water because that is scary.

[babyseal]

No kidding about finding the right dose.

Piracetam in particular seems to have dose-dependent actions. I get very different effects with microdoses (~80mg) versus more regular doses (400mg).

I tend to be extremely sensitive to medications, probably due to having chronic Lyme disease and Bartonella which might affect the blood-brain barrier and practically everything, so I have a policy of starting out with the smallest doses I can achieve when trying something new.

This means I put the smallest amount I could shake out of the capsule into about 4oz water, then "titrated" by taking sips of that water until I felt like I'd had enough (2-3 sips).

This "microdose" worked great for me--I had only positive effects, nothing huge, but good effects.

After getting used to it at the low dose, I went up to 400mg. It felt like too much--like what other people describe when they take 1600mg+.

I am sticking with the microdose (a small amount in water, taking the proper number of sips, or even a sip every now and then through the day) every few days.

I do the same thing with lithium orotate: too much gives me side effects, but spread-out microdoses are helpful.

Why use any more of a substance than you have to (except in cases where hormesis is a concern)? Seems like lower risk to use a lower dose, and your supply lasts much longer.

Edited by babyseal, 14 September 2010 - 01:58 PM.

[babyseal]

Hmmm.. Interesting stuff about the 2 week threshold. I've taken piracetam 3 times and every time I've felt awful, had the inability to focus, tension, anxiety, etc. And, yesterday I took my highest dose as a somewhat attack dose (4g) and it made me edgy and pissed of at EVERYTHING; I was watching a Disney movie and it was pissing me off. Then I felt awful and fell asleep 4 hours before my normal bedtime. Then, I had a nightmare for the first time in 4 years, with every little detail making complete sense. Since this last dose of piracetam I've decided to put the bottle away for a while. But now that you say it, a microdose may make sense. I may be getting WAY too overstimulated and making myself ill. I'll report my micro-dose in the next couple of days. I'm just worried that another dose of piracetam is going to wreck me out for the rest of the day >.>

Have you tried taking choline along with your dose of piracetam? A couple of people who've described this same irritability (including myself, to a certain extent) have found it ameliorated by concurrent choline supplementation.

Choline can also increase depression. You need to feel it out and try totally dropping or adding choline on certain days.

Can you say more about choline possibly increasing depression?

I take alpha GPC sometimes, and although it tends to make me calmer, I had the feeling that it might be making me depressed. I also take lecithin (Fearn soy lecithin), and it usually makes me happier. Choline+inositol seems to make me a bit depressed, but it also makes me relaxed and gives me a sense of well-being. It might be that the inositol has the relaxation and well-being effects, and the choline might have the slight negative effects.

[Introspecta]

I wish i could micro dose but i've been taking the stuff so long that i barely feel 6 gram doses. Even back when i first started piracetam i needed at least 2400mg a day spaced out to feel much. Interesting how different people respond. The 3 kilos i have here would last so much longer if i were able to micro dose.

[babyseal]

For anyone who's interested, I could swear that I get EXTRA dopamine from these piracetam microdoses (from putting the smallest amount I can shake into water, then having a sip or two).

Why? Microdose piracetam affects me similarly to taking two 500mg DLPAs (D-L phenylalanine) within a few hours of each other (which I don't do anymore since it seems like too much. I don't take DLPA any more, but I'm just citing it as an example).

In both cases, my movements are more effortless and slightly sped up. I type and move more easily and quickly. My body is more attuned to gestures and movement.

[glob]

Protocol (one week):

Piracetam 200mg + AlCar 200mg every 2 hrs (powder)
Aniracetam 800mg twice (capsules)

Effects (compared to 4 gr Piracetam + 3gr AlCar divided in 4 doses during the day + Aniracetam 800mg twice - 50 days):

Better alertness: modulated insted of "roller coaster" style
Head pleasantly warm (starting from occiput)
Steady calmness
Never foggy
No headache

I can not report any kind of memory improvement, till now.

(sorry for my bad english)

[manic_racetam]

This is something you might want to read: http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/6415738
Especially this sentence: "Piracetam at 4.8 g/day had a more rapid onset of action on behavioral variables than 2.4 g/day, but its therapeutic effect tended to diminish at 12 weeks, possibly as the result of overstimulation."
...........

I think this may be the reason that Noopept is suggested to be discontinued for a month every three months. I know that my mega-dose experiment started out wonderfully and quickly lost it's therapeutic effect, likely do to over-stimulation.

Maybe you could take noopept at 10mg per day chronically? Or maybe it's just a good idea to cycle off of stacks every few months to give your brain a break....

[Uncle]

So theoretically, if micro dosing is a viable option - then an 'attack' dose could be as low as say 1200mg?

Also, if micro dosing does start to cause headaches in some. Then would a micro dose of Choline be an option?

I've recently ordered some Piracetam, which is yet to arrive. When it does I will now start low for sure & work my way up.

Do the best results come from taking it on an empty stomach or with some food?

[SuperjackDid_]

Look like i'm over stimulation for year pass ,until i try micro dose (25mg) ,will experiment more.
Over stimulation for year make brain damage ?

[SuperjackDid_]

Anyone else ?
I can feel Piracetam at 1mg dose ,better focus ,concentration .

[Introspecta]

Probably placebo effect at 1mg

[SuperjackDid_]

Probably placebo effect at 1mg

I have mental clarity and i can read pub-med abstract faster than baseline .
Vision also has improve ,i know how Piracetam effect look like .
Anyway i just take more larger dose everyday ,larger dose seem induce brain-fog and lower mental concentration ,physical movement .

I have experiment 25-50mg for a while and seem i still get hyperactivity ,but combine with Alcohol i have much more verbal lucid instead of anxiety and brainfogged .
Problem on lessen dose is mood ,mood not bright .

[Wilberforce]

Hi guys,

Great thread. Thought I'd add in some of my experiences on this topic.

I started on the usual type of doses reported (4800mg twice daily). It would be a short 'high' then I'd feel tired & irritable with sore eyes/sinus and sometimes bloated stomach. For the last two symptoms [sinus & stomach] I'm fairly sure high-dose Piracetam disrupted my 'friendly bacteria' in the gut and set off an auto-immune response. Also, I think the for the first 2 symptoms [tired & irritable], I believe these dosages were seriously over stimulating neuro-transmitters.

I have also tried Pramiracetam and Noopept at typical published dosages. Whilst I never felt irritable I did feel tired and my eyes were sore soon after. I didnt notice much in the way of other effects - lights slightly brighter (maybe).

I have switched Piracetam down to 200mg 2-3 x daily for the last 2-3 weeks and it works really well. I experience colours very vividly, mental accuity is high, mood is improved and often find libido high ;-) - I believe there is a 'Dopamine' effect.

Added in ALCAR today and got a bit of brain fog! I'm not sure whether to try again.

Choline works for me to potentiate the Piracetam effects but not more than 2 x per week, otherwise it feels somewhat like the above when high dosing.

St John's Wort in the morning seems to provide a calmer balance to the higher rate of thinking. Occasionally throw in 1 x Kava Kava as well for similar effect.

Would love to hear other experiences with 'low' doses. Having read some comments here I am thinking of switching down to 100mg a dose.

Will.

Edited by Wilberforce, 26 April 2012 - 01:57 PM.

[hippocampus]

Probably placebo effect at 1mg

I have mental clarity and i can read pub-med abstract faster than baseline .
Vision also has improve ,i know how Piracetam effect look like .
Anyway i just take more larger dose everyday ,larger dose seem induce brain-fog and lower mental concentration ,physical movement .

I have experiment 25-50mg for a while and seem i still get hyperactivity ,but combine with Alcohol i have much more verbal lucid instead of anxiety and brainfogged .
Problem on lessen dose is mood ,mood not bright .

it's not possible to feel anything from 1 mg if usual doses are >800 mg. I also doubt that 50 mg does anything, unless combined with something that magnifies its effect A LOT.

[SuperjackDid_]

Right effect is there ,concentration peek around 1-5mg ,i take micro dose at morning and more larger dose when i go outside or at evening for overall brain oxygen/glucose benefit .
My symptom get better everyday after i reduce dose , color + vision still remain sharp even i reduce dose ,i can combine with any others useful noots , instead of give me massive headache for normal Piracetam dose .

Gingko effect is amazing when combine with Piracetam ,i usually get headache and feel lazy at normal dose ,but with micro dose ,give me speedy feeling + motivation to do a job.
Oxiracetam improve my creativity a lot and maybe so much good for writing some text book.


Piracetam lost effectiveness is simply over stimulation ?Unlucky i can't get full-text to confirm about over-stimulation ,problem might solve sooner ,also no one know just 1mg do something ,it just introduce more pieces to puzzle .

[Geoffrey]

I also need micro doses. When I first started Piracetam at 800mg per day it worked fine for about two weeks, but as it accumulated in my system it began to have negative effects: headache, brain fog, a feeling of being drugged all the time, tinnitus (possibly caused by increased bloodflow?), and growing tiredness. I started taking choline to remedy this, but it only helped with the headache. The tiredness grew to the point that I would have to sleep during the day and would wake up feeling horribly groggy. I started taking my 800mg pill at night, and it would put me out like a light, like a sleeping pill. However, I would wake up after 8 hours sleep (more than I usually have) still feeling unrefreshed. So I stopped the Piracetam, and symptoms continued for quite a few days, and slowly began to subside. The sharpened vision continued for about a week-and-a-half after stopping, clearly indicating to me that the Piracetam had accumulated somewhere (probably brain!), and was only gradually being flushed out. Since, I have experimented with Aniracetam, Oxiracetam and Pramiracetam (separately). They all have slightly different effects, but the overaccumulation problem always kicks in after about a week of taking them at very conservative doses. So I have now tried drastically cutting those doses to <50mg, further "diluted" sometimes 1:4 in centrophenoxine (for choline). So far this seems to be a much better dosage, and I'm not getting the tiredness. Brain fog is sometimes still an issue (too much centro?), and I still have to stop dosing for a couple of days per week to try and clear the excess of whichever -racetam I'm experimenting with.

This is very bizarre considering the huge doses that some people take here. Can human chemistry really be *that* different? For me, however, it does stand to reason that anything that is genuinely psychoactive should not need mega-doses.

I'm not quite satisfied that I have found a stable regimen yet.

[hippocampus]

Right effect is there ,concentration peek around 1-5mg ,i take micro dose at morning and more larger dose when i go outside or at evening for overall brain oxygen/glucose benefit .
My symptom get better everyday after i reduce dose , color + vision still remain sharp even i reduce dose ,i can combine with any others useful noots , instead of give me massive headache for normal Piracetam dose .

Gingko effect is amazing when combine with Piracetam ,i usually get headache and feel lazy at normal dose ,but with micro dose ,give me speedy feeling + motivation to do a job.
Oxiracetam improve my creativity a lot and maybe so much good for writing some text book.


Piracetam lost effectiveness is simply over stimulation ?Unlucky i can't get full-text to confirm about over-stimulation ,problem might solve sooner ,also no one know just 1mg do something ,it just introduce more pieces to puzzle .

I don't know how you can even measure 1 mg! It's like saying that you got drank from 10 ml of wine. It's not possible.

[lourdaud]

+1
Hahhah that's the stupidest shit I've ever heard.. Never seen such a clear example of placebo :P

[Wilberforce]

+1
Hahhah that's the stupidest shit I've ever heard.. Never seen such a clear example of placebo :P

Nice to see (or is it hear?) your Nootropic regimen is working for you fella.