45 replies to this topic

[tjcbs]

Is anyone using this?
Its surprising to me to see this becoming more and more common, as it contains l-dopa which is almost certainly very neurotoxic.
What are some good alternatives for increasing dopamine? (apart from deprenyl, which I cannot take due to ssri usage)

[FunkOdyssey]

I've seen reports of people taking 5mg of deprenyl daily while on an SSRI without incident. I don't think there is much risk unless you push the dosage into the range where it inhibits MAO unselectively (somewhere greater than 10mg/day).

Personally I'd go for it. Check out forum.avantlabs.com and search for deprenyl AND ssri for some first-hand experiences there.

[xanadu]

Where did you hear that m puriens was neurotoxic? It's been used for a long time with no such reports.

[tjcbs]

Not specifically mucuna, but l-dopa itself is well known to be neurotoxic.

[yopomug]

Not specifically mucuna, but l-dopa itself is well known to be neurotoxic.

--in reasonable amounts, not exactly. the biggest problem with l-dopa, as it's most often used is getting to a point, clinically, of diminishing returns. l-dopa looses its effectiveness over time. i'm not sure if this is due to upregulation or some other process of homostasis, but i'd certainly be careful of taking l-dopa for long periods of time...

for very short term use -- a few days before an important sexual encounter, for example -- i'd say it's a pretty safe bed.

[jackj]

Hi, i ordered and tried mucuna pruriens, up to my second week now.

To be honest the only time i felt a mental effect was on the first and second day. I took 200mg on the first day. The effects where not all that special but i did see a major difference in the way i communicated with people. Long story short I cut down to 100mg a day, the brain fog/bimbo state was pretty much gone and I felt better than average for a good period but i think the effect wore of really fast.

One lasting effect seems to be my muscle mass. Prior to it my main exercise was walking and yoga, core body strength work and while not big i was not weak either. Anyway two weeks in on 100mg a day and damn i'm almost beefcake, I'm at the stage where i dont want to get any bigger, seriously my shirts have gone from normal to i can't cross my arms they are so tight. Another things is i lying down after some light exercise and i could feel blood pumping my lower back muscles. A very weird feeling. I wish i had some kind of strength test i could go by.

I havnt noticed any real negatives yet. Although i'm going to cut down further because the increase in size this fast in unintended, i realise it stims HGH but this is a bit fast for my liking. :S, if i could stay as i am now i would be happy but at this rate i'll turn into Hulk ... by the way im 27 and one negative might be that my brain seemed to get over the mental stim. pretty quickly.

Edited by unlucid, 03 July 2007 - 12:27 AM.

[djmmm]

Neurotoxicity is only associated with synthetic L-dopa.

Neuroprotective effects of the antiparkinson drug Mucuna pruriens

Mucuna pruriens possesses significantly higher antiparkinson activity compared with levodopa in the 6-hydroxydopamine (6-OHDA) lesioned rat model of Parkinson's disease. The present study evaluated the neurorestorative effect of Mucuna pruriens cotyledon powder on the nigrostriatal tract of 6-OHDA lesioned rats. Mucuna pruriens cotyledon powder significantly increased the brain mitochondrial complex-I activity but did not affect the total monoamine oxidase activity (in vitro). Unlike synthetic levodopa treatment, Mucuna pruriens cotyledon powder treatment significantly restored the endogenous levodopa, dopamine, norepinephrine and serotonin content in the substantia nigra. Nicotine adenine dinucleotide (NADH) and coenzyme Q-10, that are shown to have a therapeutic benefit in Parkinson's disease, were present in the Mucuna pruriens cotyledon powder. Earlier studies showed that Mucuna pruriens treatment controls the symptoms of Parkinson's disease. This additional finding of a neurorestorative benefit by Mucuna pruriens cotyledon powder on the degenerating dopaminergic neurons in the substantia nigra may be due to increased complex-I activity and the presence of NADH and coenzyme Q-10. Copyright © 2004 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum

[jackj]

Thanks for pointing that out djmmm I was suspect myself when a few people mentioned it but it doesn't seem to be the case... now?

I brought it from here - very quick!

http://www.herbal-po...r120ca10o1.html

[medievil]

does anyone know if mucune has the ability to dramatically shorting lifespan (or extend) like ldopa?

[pSimonKey]

it also contains serotonin, NN-5-MEO-DMT and 5-MEO-DMT

[ajnast4r]

5-MEO-DMT

[wis] [wis] [wis] [wis] [wis] [wis] [wis]

[jackj]

So i was just seeing things? lol

I've stopped taking it daily as I can't see any sustained effects other than increased body muscle mass. I'll give it a week or two to see how i feel.

I'm also a bit unsure about the limited information available on the web and lack of studies.

[medievil]

it also contains serotonin, NN-5-MEO-DMT and 5-MEO-DMT

maybe the neuroprotective effect comes from the DMT?

[pSimonKey]

http://sun.ars-grin.....xsql?taxon=644

[narcissistic]

it also contains serotonin, NN-5-MEO-DMT and 5-MEO-DMT

as well as bufotenin an other chemical witch strong psykoaktiv properties. and nicotine.

[narcissistic]

an interesting herb any way. I have heard that it has bin discussions whether it should be approved as a mane stream medicine for Parkinson in the USA

[ajnast4r]

http://sun.ars-grin.....xsql?taxon=644

that is an AWESOME site

[narcissistic]

Neurotoxicity is only associated with synthetic L-dopa.

Do you have any idée’s way that is? Shouldn’t synthetic L-dopa be the exakt counterpart? Couldn’t it simply be a dos thing?

Every one who is suffering from Parkinson and medicates with L-dopa get serious side effects.

[narcissistic]

http://sun.ars-grin.....xsql?taxon=644

Thanks allot I now got reading material for 6 month.

[jackj]

So can anyone enlighten us as to what the above link might tell us?

I'm still off it, might give it another week and take 200mg again to see if i get the same effect and go for a week or so more.

Interesting stuff none the less

[narcissistic]

I simply don’t understand why the synthetic L-dopa would be neurotoxic when the natural occurring isn’t, maybe its to complex to be synthesized properly. So much for science saving humanity from it suffering; I know every one with Parkinson get serious side effects and suffer from there medication. But than again maybe they are more sensitive to the side effect from L-dopa then people in general.

[medievil]

i would also bet the natural one if is faaaaaaaaaar from effective as the synthetic one

[FunkOdyssey]

i would also bet the natural one if is faaaaaaaaaar from effective as the synthetic one

Actually:

Neurol Neurosurg Psychiatry. 2004 Dec;75(12):1672-7.

    Mucuna pruriens in Parkinson's disease: a double blind clinical and pharmacological study.
    Katzenschlager R, Evans A, Manson A, Patsalos PN, Ratnaraj N, Watt H, Timmermann L, Van der Giessen R, Lees AJ.

    National Hospital for Neurology and Neurosurgery, London, UK.

    BACKGROUND: The seed powder of the leguminous plant, Mucuna pruriens has long been used in traditional Ayurvedic Indian medicine for diseases including parkinsonism. We have assessed the clinical effects and levodopa (L-dopa) pharmacokinetics following two different doses of mucuna preparation and compared them with standard L-dopa/carbidopa (LD/CD). METHODS: Eight Parkinson's disease patients with a short duration L-dopa response and on period dyskinesias completed a randomised, controlled, double blind crossover trial. Patients were challenged with single doses of 200/50 mg LD/CD, and 15 and 30 g of mucuna preparation in randomised order at weekly intervals. L-dopa pharmacokinetics were determined, and Unified Parkinson's Disease Rating Scale and tapping speed were obtained at baseline and repeatedly during the 4 h following drug ingestion. Dyskinesias were assessed using modified AIMS and Goetz scales. RESULTS: Compared with standard LD/CD, the 30 g mucuna preparation led to a considerably faster onset of effect (34.6 v 68.5 min; p = 0.021), reflected in shorter latencies to peak L-dopa plasma concentrations. Mean on time was 21.9% (37 min) longer with 30 g mucuna than with LD/CD (p = 0.021); peak L-dopa plasma concentrations were 110% higher and the area under the plasma concentration v time curve (area under curve) was 165.3% larger (p = 0.012). No significant differences in dyskinesias or tolerability occurred. CONCLUSIONS: The rapid onset of action and longer on time without concomitant increase in dyskinesias on mucuna seed powder formulation suggest that this natural source of L-dopa might possess advantages over conventional L-dopa preparations in the long term management of PD. Assessment of long term efficacy and tolerability in a randomised, controlled study is warranted.

    PMID: 15548480 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[narcissistic]

i would also bet the natural one if is faaaaaaaaaar from effective as the synthetic one

I bet the natural L-dopa in mucuna is closer to what we normally convert tyrosine in to, and there for more suitable for our nerve system than the synthesized variant.

Morfin can also be synthesized in a laboratory but its an extremely complex and expensive process, so still opium poppies are grown in order to maintain the opiate need of the world.

Actually the extremely popular benzodiazepines family have a natural Indian herb as its model, witch has bin used for centuries for the same purpose. Long term Valium us cause brain damage, I don’t think its likely that the herb witch function by the same mechanism have that side effect.

In the middle of the 60th L-dopa was first synthesized, which was world news; the scientists hade don it again, for the first time science could offer an effective treatment for Parkinson, ones again science hade saved millions of humans from their suffering etc. The irony is that at the wary same time people in India and china with Parkinson hade basically the same treatment, the only deferens is that the natural L-dopa probably are more effective witch the western world medical companies starting to realize (or maybe they simply cant deny it any longer) now 40 years later!

The whole western medical circus is a disgrace (chemistry is interesting thaw).

Edited by narcissistic, 10 July 2007 - 04:26 PM.

[narcissistic]

I resaved my order on mucuna the other day. I must say I’m amaze by the effect. I will definitely use it occasional; however I wouldn’t take it every day for a longer period of time. Gastrodia is an other herb with similar actions but not as potent, for every day use during a long period I would defiantly prefer it over mucna or pure natural L-dopa.

[jerebaldo1]

I've compared Mucuna supplements over the last several months because of pure curiosity about how L-Dopa affects me. Also, I've started exercising and playing basketball, so psychomotor stimulation seemed useful.

So far I've tried Himalaya USA since that's the only brand that Iherb had. It didn't seem to have an effect at 200-600mg, it's expensive, and its L-Dopa content is unstandardized.
Next I tried NutraceuticsRX Mucuna sourced from American Nutrition because it was the cheapest high L-Dopa preparation I could find. It has 250mg of extract standardized to 40% L-Dopa. The only effects I got were occassional twitches on major muscle groups, which I thought was amusing, and a general feeling of malaise. The only good effect seemed to be that I tore it up playing basketball on 750mg of this stuff (300mg L-Dopa). I felt like I had more endurance to make very jerky, abrupt movements. Unfortunately, I got no psychoactive effects on this.
Finally, I just got and tried a Mucuna extract by America's Finest with only 15% L-Dopa per 400mg capsule. And I wanted to see if that may be a more ideal preparation for experiencing psychoactive effects since I knew that mucuna had a great variety of psychoactive chemicals in it's various parts besides L-Dopa. It's the cheapest preparation on a mg/$$ ratio I could find from the retailer Doctor's Trust.

This extract seems to be sleep enhancing and more mood stabilizing than anything else I've ever tried. It prevents high levels of caffeine from making me agitated or irritable. I was not expecting this level of effectiveness at 2.4grams (360mg L-Dopa, 6 capsules). Oh, and it rapidly eradicated the slightly irritable, spacey feeling i get when coming off of Kratom. I have no idea why this may be. For all I know this supplier's extract may contain a much greater proportion of the unique mucunoid alkaloids or the tryptamines than other extracts. But based on my experience I recommend people interested in Mucuna try a few grams of extracts with modest amounts of L-Dopa or else several grams of bulk powder. If the Himalaya USA product were a few times cheaper it would be a good candidate for bulk powder. If anyone can find a source for cheap bulk seed\leaf powder do let me know.

Edited by jerebaldo1, 17 August 2007 - 09:52 PM.

[the big b]

So in what instances would this be a useful supplement? Can it be an addition to just any stack?

[jackj]

So in what instances would this be a useful supplement? Can it be an addition to just any stack?

I thought it would be useful because I found myself feeling disconnected from a lot of things socially. I hadn't taken any similar dopamine like products before and noticed on the first two caps that there was a change. I think I referred to it as a "ditzy blonde" feeling at I sometimes see. People and the smallest things seemed to be interesting and there was a need to connect with people.

I cut to one cap after than for a week or two and felt much better around people in general social situations. I even decided to clean up my act and let my better half move in. Whether or not this is related to the product I don't know but I had no thought to do such a thing prior to taking it.

At about week four I was not seeing the dramatic effects I did in the first week. I did notice my lean muscle mass and general size had increased though (gf will attest to this). I've got new muscles everywhere and while not being huge i'm no longer average either. Plus my exercise regime hasn't changed, just regular walking and some basic yoga.

During this time I was also taking about 800mg of Pirac, Lecithin and a multi. I try to miss a day or two now and then on Pirac though, mainly because I find extended use gives a 'crash' at about day 7.. it's short lived but I really can't be bothered which much at that time so I try to avoid it.

I slowed down (3 caps a week) on the Mucuna after a first month. The effect I was hoping for (stimulating some kind of social warmth) has been seen. I'm no expert but the idea was to get my body to 'pick up the slack' and I think it has.

The reason I found Mucuna was because the supplier of Deprenyl managed to mess up two orders. I received it in the end but it was two months into the Mucuna. I went a week with out anything and took Deprenyl (5mg) every three days. The effect was not pleasant, the basics being I was more determined to get work done but had a general feeling that I was superior to everyone (unessesarily ruthless). I was taking the tablet form from he same supplier of Hydergine that seemed to give a similar effect but with more side effects, although I wasnt taking a choline source at the time). Sore neck and nasel stiffness. Regardless, I doubt i'll be using them anymore.

At the moment i'm looking for a reason to keep using Deprenyl. It migth end up on the Hydergine pile soon. I've also tried taking smaller doses but still the same feeling, with or without Pirac and welcome any suggestions. Perhaps its just not for me?

One new supp. that I'm waiting for is Alpha GPC. Its a powder form and from a new supplier. Slightly more expensive, but from what I can see it might be similar to a combination of both Pirac and Mucuna. I think this is good because the long term effects of Mucuna 'velvet beans' haven't been studied from what I can see. There is also the risk of dyskinesia which I have been watching out for (small involuntary movements when lying still). I sometimes (rarely) see like these after a week of Mucuna but I might be overly cautious here because really it's the only side effect I've noticed so far.

Anyway, any suggestions? otherwise I hope it helps.

Cheers.

Edited by unlucid, 26 August 2007 - 09:12 AM.

[medievil]

Actually the extremely popular benzodiazepines family have a natural Indian herb as its model, witch has bin used for centuries for the same purpose. Long term Valium us cause brain damage, I don’t think its likely that the herb witch function by the same mechanism have that side effect.

what herb are we talking about here?

[rsnuk]

Just ordered 1 KG of this stuff, any recommendation on how i should use it and does anyone else have a personal experience they would like to share?