57 replies to this topic

[tunt01]

You can get your microbiome sequenced here www.ubiome.com with a "smartgut" test.  Don't know if they test for the Gordonibacter that converts elligatanins to urolithin.  Awaiting my kit results.

 

Did you ever get results on this?

[maxwatt]

Yes, I have "normal" biodiversity, no pathogenic organisms, but I am lacking some bacteria, particularly lactobacillus, that are negatively associated with various conditions.  Surprising in that I eat yogurt near daily.

As far as I know they do not test for Gordonobacter.  But one species of Urolithin producing Gordonobacter was recently found to be associated with Colon tumors.  Whether causative of by association is unclear.

[Nate-2004]

I don't think we'll see anything as far as actionable therapies for the microbiome for a few years. A lot of these orgs studying the microbiome are backed up with a very large number of samples to sequence and apparently it's a really long process. I'm sure we'll see more once inventive ways to speed this up are produced. Until then, just keep your diet high in soluble fiber and inulin, fish oil also promotes these. Apparently ellagic acid doesn't necessarily have the tannins to produce urolithin A either, so not sure why they aren't going with the more efficient route of selling urolithin A, but maybe it's tough to produce it in large quantities. I guess you'd have to find ways to culture gordonibacter and feed it all the proper tannins to get it to produce urolithin a, then somehow isolate that once you get enough of it. I can't even begin to know how one would do such a thing from start to finish.

[APBT]

Yes, I have "normal" biodiversity, no pathogenic organisms, but I am lacking some bacteria, particularly lactobacillus, that are negatively associated with various conditions.  Surprising in that I eat yogurt near daily.

As far as I know they do not test for Gordonobacter.  But one species of Urolithin producing Gordonobacter was recently found to be associated with Colon tumors.  Whether causative of by association is unclear.

 

Log-in to your ubiome account, click on "advanced features," select "search" and enter Gordonibacter (or any other microbe) and it'll list what percentage were found in your sample.

[pamojja]

I don't think we'll see anything as far as actionable therapies for the microbiome for a few years.

 

Not a good reason for some not to try already today. For example at http://microbiomepre...rewebsites.net/ one can upload one's ubiome results, and it will pull out of the literature, wherever available, how possibly correct over- and/or undergrowth.
 

[Rays]

Log-in to your ubiome account, click on "advanced features," select "search" and enter Gordonibacter (or any other microbe) and it'll list what percentage were found in your sample.

 

Thank you. I apparently have some Gordonibacter, even if very little. Just < 0.01 %. How much Gordonibacter do other people have? Is there a way to feed them to get them to reproduce more?

[pamojja]

Thank you. I apparently have some Gordonibacter, even if very little. Just < 0.01 %. How much Gordonibacter do other people have? Is there a way to feed them to get them to reproduce more?

 

Here the prevalence: http://microbiomepre...et/Library/Tree, its found in about 61% of samples.
 

[Harkijn]

Thank you. I apparently have some Gordonibacter, even if very little. Just < 0.01 %. How much Gordonibacter do other people have? Is there a way to feed them to get them to reproduce more?

Note that there is also a circular thing going on here. If you look here, for instance:

http://www.datapunk....ay.pl?1335613 S

you'll find that Gordonibacter is enhanced by.... pomegranate ellagitannins!

[Nate-2004]

Note that there is also a circular thing going on here. If you look here, for instance:

http://www.datapunk....ay.pl?1335613 S

you'll find that Gordonibacter is enhanced by.... pomegranate ellagitannins!

 

So is there any way to isolate these specific tannins or get a sufficient amount of them? Honestly I hate pomegranate.

[pamojja]

So is there any way to isolate these specific tannins or get a sufficient amount of them? Honestly I hate pomegranate.

 

http://microbiomepre...11% of Samples) gives the following specifics for gordonibacter:

 

antibiotics florfenicol Decreases

chloramphenicol family antibiotics florfenicol antibiotics Decreases

pomegranate fruit pomegranate Increases

pomegranate ellagitannins Increases

vet: animal-targeted drugs (prescription) florfenicol Decreases

 

However, I did consume in average 760 mg/d of pomegranate extract standardized to ellagitannins since 10 years. Already since 4 years above 1 g/d. But no gordonibacter present in my last year microbiome. Therefore at least me will next try the whole thing including rind in a smoothy maker.

Edited by pamojja, 16 June 2018 - 05:58 PM.

[APBT]

SOURCE:  https://www.hindawi....i/2017/5939818/

 

 

Probiotic Bacteria for Healthier Aging: Immunomodulation and Metabolism of Phytoestrogens

 

2.2.3. Ellagitannins, Aging, and Probiotic Bacteria

Ellagitannins are complex derivatives of ellagic acid, which are largely metabolized by the colon microbiota of different mammals [125, 126] and humans prior to absorption [127, 128]. The microbially mediated origin of urolithin has been demonstrated [129, 130]. Ellagitannins, ellagic acid, and urolithins exhibit anticancer properties in vitro and in vivo [69, 131]. Pomegranate extracts inhibit the growth of lung, prostate, colon, and breast cancer cells in vitro [132–135]. Urolithins inhibit mitogen-activated protein kinase signalling [136], which could curtail the risk of development of colon cancer by inhibiting cell proliferation and inducing apoptosis [90].

To date, only two urolithin-producing strains, Gordonibacter urolithinfaciens CEBAS 1/15P and Gordonibacter pamelaeae DSM 19378, have been identified [137, 138]. However, these strains cannot produce the downstream products urolithin A and urolithin B. Unraveling the bacterial phyla or group of bacteria responsible for production of these compounds is of great interest since they can be potentially used as probiotics [139]. Consumption of foods containing ellagic acid is also associated with health beneficial effects, and they could be mediated by the presence of urolithin-producing microorganisms [77].

Probiotics able to produce or to increase species related to the production of urolithins or other phytoestrogens such as equol and enterolignans can mean a step forward in the probiotic interventions, increasing the bioavailability of these compounds, and subsequently their therapeutic applications.

 

[pone11]

It's been a couple of years since this information was released.  I'm somewhat surprised that no one is marketing a gordonibacter urolithinfaciens probiotic at this point.  Seems like a market opportunity is going unmet.

 

The thought occurs that such a probiotic could be directly combined with the pomegranate precursors and brewed to make urolithin out of the body.   You could then ingest the urolithin rich juice directly.

 

This would not only give a more optimal output - because you could control temperature and duration of the brew - but would sidestep the issue of bioavailability and establishment of the probiotic in the gut.

[Oakman]

^ This has been done. For our needs, the problem is getting the correct probiotic strain to use.

Here's one example, there are others:

 

http://www.ijpab.com...7-5-1-35-41.pdf

[pone11]

I would not use Urolithin B.  There are three types of human biome: those that produce no urolithin from ellagic acid, those that produce urolithin A and those that produce Urolithin B.  Those whose gut microbes produce Urolithin B tend toward metabolic syndrome and cancer.

 

http://www.pubfacts....ithin-phenotype

 

Does anyone with access to full text of this study have data on what percentage of your gut biome needs to be gordonibacter urolithinfaciens?    uBiome will profile this one in the advanced section down to an accuracy around .001%.

[Daniel Cooper]

Has anyone ever seen a source for gordonibacter urolithinfaciens?  I've never seen it in a probiotic, but surely someone sells it in some form?

 

 

 

[APBT]

Does anyone with access to full text of this study have data on what percentage of your gut biome needs to be gordonibacter urolithinfaciens?    uBiome will profile this one in the advanced section down to an accuracy around .001%.

 

FULL TEXT:

Attached Files

•  Ellagic Acid Metabolism by Human Gut Microbiota - Consistent Observation of Three Urolithin Phenotypes in Intervention Trials, Independent of Food Source, Age, and Health Statu.pdf   478.12KB   298 downloads

[pone11]

Unfortunately, the "three phenotypes" study full text does not profile the levels of specific gut bacteria associated with each of the three phenotypes.

[pone11]

^ This has been done. For our needs, the problem is getting the correct probiotic strain to use.

Here's one example, there are others:

 

http://www.ijpab.com...7-5-1-35-41.pdf

 

That study never measures the output of urolithin A or B in their brew.   It is not clear they formed any urolithin at all.

 

One question I have is how stable are urolithin metabolites once formed?  If they are heat sensitive or degrade over time, brewing them into a commercial product is very problematic.  You would have to brew and drink at home to work around those limitations.

[Rays]

Note that there is also a circular thing going on here. If you look here, for instance:

http://www.datapunk....ay.pl?1335613 S

you'll find that Gordonibacter is enhanced by.... pomegranate ellagitannins!

 

So, if I eat a couple of pomegranates a week, including the white mesocarp and membrane, the number of Gordonibacter should rise, right?

[Harkijn]

So, if I eat a couple of pomegranates a week, including the white mesocarp and membrane, the number of Gordonibacter should rise, right?

I would not know about dosages, but yes, it seems that taking pomegranates (or juice made from the whole pomegranate) enhances Gordonibacter to some degree. It is at least something we can start with here and now instead of waiting for someone to produce a Gordonibacter pill. BTW, also raspberries and walnuts have been mentioned as precursors IIRC.

[Rays]

When taking azithromycin, won't that kill your microbiome? I'd like to keep my Gordonibacter, amongst others.

Are you guys not afraid of losing your valuable microbiome?

 

What can we do to prevent that? Can you take azithromycin sublingually? Is it possible to prevent azithromycin going into the intestines and making sure all is absorbed in the stomach?

 

Is it doable to repopulate your own microbiome, using your own sample?

 

[Rays]

Sorry, wrong thread.

 

[William Sterog]

Pomella has been shown to increase plasma levels of urolithin A, urolithin B, hydroxyl-urolithin A, urolithin A-glucuronide, and dimethyl ellagic acid-glucuronide. Those compounds have been shown to have potential antioxidant and anti-aging effects.

Maybe is this extract effective?

[Daniel Cooper]

It's effective if you have the right gut flora (gordonibacter urolithinfaciens being one species) that converts ellagic acid to urolithin (the A flavor in particular being useful).

 

If you don't have the right gut flora you're SOL.

 

Why we can't buy a probiotic supplement that contains gordonibacter urolithinfaciens I have no clue.

 

 

 

[William Sterog]

It's effective if you have the right gut flora (gordonibacter urolithinfaciens being one species) that converts ellagic acid to urolithin (the A flavor in particular being useful).

If you don't have the right gut flora you're SOL.

Why we can't buy a probiotic supplement that contains gordonibacter urolithinfaciens I have no clue.

I thought that that mean that this particular extract effectivity didn't depend on gut composition.

[Daniel Cooper]

Unless this extract contains urolithins (which as far as I know it does not) then precursors (mainly ellagic acid) must be metabolized to produce them.  This requires the proper gut flora which many have but some do not.

 

This pomella extract seems to be derived from pomegranate fruit, which does not contain any urolithins.  In fact, I don't believe that any known foods or plants contain urolithins and that our only source for this compound is metabolism of precursors in the gut.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[albedo]

Nestlé Health Science invests in global strategic partnership with Amazentis to develop its new cellular nutrient Urolithin A

https://www.prnewswi...-300822293.html

[Engadin]

Glad to see even Nestlè wants to have a share in the lifespan prolonging market cake. It leads me to think a fierce competition ahead as more companies will join after make up their minds to understanding the potential of healthy aging market.