35 replies to this topic

[Iamnobodi]

I am really confused about my mental health at the moment. At times I'm not sure if I even have a problem. But at other times I definitely don't feel normal, and that's how I feel now. 

 

After doing some research on Schizophrenia (SZ), the negative symptoms really resonated with me. That is: blunted emotions, loss of drive, social withdrawal and poverty of thought. My uncle was schizophrenic, unfortunately he committed suicide. A second degree relative increases the change of SZ by 2 percent. So I might be pre-disposed to some aspect of SZ. 

 

I don't really experience positive symptoms - hallucinations (except for sleep paralysis occasionally), in terms of delusions not really either. I may feel people are looking at me from time to time but I think that is normal. 

 

I went to see a psychiatrist  today, but I didn't bring up SZ, I sort of tucked this thought away, but now I am regretting not discussing this with my Pdoc. 

 

Any suggestions on a course of action - or whether I should be concerned about SZ.

 

Cheers 

[psychejunkie]

usually basic symptoms appear prior to SZ's negative and positive symptoms:

https://en.wikipedia..._schizophrenia 

 

Check if you had experienced any of them, you might suffering from something else.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

I am diagnosed schizotypal with various other problems. I've been like this my whole life, and it's definitely genetic from my father.

Like you, it changes. Sometimes I feel as if I am definitely autistic or schizophrenic, while at other times I feel that it's just superficial symptoms, I don't have any of the serious symptoms that characterizes the diseases. Then, when reflecting upon this uncertainty I sometimes believe that it's just emotional instability, because it changes after how my "confidence" (hate that word) is - but I am not an emotional, unstable person.

 

Like you, I am socially withdrawn. I've always been socially withdrawn but right now I don't have a single friend and will probably never have one until I die, because socializing is uncomfortable for me and I don't like other people in general. It's pretty obvious that I am schizotypal to some degree.

 

This might sound like a bad advice, but don't seek a psychiatrist. Generally, people seek psychiatrists because they're in a moment of emotional despair and frailty. To be labeled mentally ill for the rest of your life, and risk being locked in a mental hospital for things that have nothing to do with the diagnosis, because some overly social "doctor" doesn't even understand the disease you're diagnosed with, and being forced on medication (or just taking them) is not worth it. Their "help" is often for other people, to prevent you from harming them. But you're not really a harm to other people, I assume, so why bother.

If I were you I'd seek out supplements.

 

GABA-A agonists help with socializing in schizophrenics and autistics, especially if you like myself fear eye contact, so try those. 

Edited by RatherBeUnknown, 12 July 2016 - 02:33 PM.

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

I'm on the same boat as you. 5 years and no positive progression. Newest MRI result showed Hikam's syndrome. Maybe I'm luckiest person in the world and that syndrome is causing my anhedonia/apathy/inability to think. Only relief I had was from ethyl and methylphenidate. When it all started I was one of the happiest and brightest 15 yo person. Now I'm 20 and I live like vegetable. Srsly, what the fuck world? Why this disorder? For fuck's sake!

[Mind_Paralysis]

Have you looked into Modafinil? It's one of the few substances currently widely available that has shown some benefit for Negative Symptoms - i.e without turning you psychotic.

 

I'm on the same boat as you. 5 years and no positive progression. Newest MRI result showed Hikam's syndrome. Maybe I'm luckiest person in the world and that syndrome is causing my anhedonia/apathy/inability to think. Only relief I had was from ethyl and methylphenidate. When it all started I was one of the happiest and brightest 15 yo person. Now I'm 20 and I live like vegetable. Srsly, what the fuck world? Why this disorder? For fuck's sake!

 

Hikam's Syndrome?? What on Earth is that? Never heard of... and googling only turns up Hickam's Dictum - which is a scientific law stating that a patient may need to be diagnosed with additional diseases, if one single disease just can't explain all of the symptoms.

 

What ails you, friend?
 

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

https://en.wikipedia..._hydrocephalus  It's Hakim's syndrome, not Hikam's. I made a mistake. 

 

Especially this fragment: 

 

 

• Dementia is predominantly frontal lobe in nature and of the subcortical type of dementia. It presents in the form of apathy, forgetfulness, inertia, inattention, decreased speed of complex information procession (also described as a dullness in thinking and actions), and disturbed manipulation of acquired knowledge, which is reflective of the loss of integrity of the frontal lobes.^[5] Memory problems are usually a component of the overall problem and have been predominant in some cases, which can lead to the misdiagnosis of Alzheimer's disease. However, in NPH there may be an obvious discrepancy between (often severely) impaired recall and intact or much less impaired recognition. The dementia is thought to result from traction on frontal and limbic fibers that also run in the periventricular region.

 

Edited by MichaelTheAnhedonic, 13 July 2016 - 12:39 AM.

[AlmostEasy]

There is an entire world of people with your problems and you won't see it talked about much on this forum, but it is a specialty of this one:

 

http://phoenixrising...ecfs-symptoms-2

 

For negative symptoms of SZ you will want to check otu:

 

- Sarcosine

- NAC

- Cox inhibitors

- Methylation protocols (talked about in the link I posted)

- Low dose amisulpride / olanzapine

- Minocycline

 

http://www.schizophreniaoptions.com/

 

If those don't do it for you then you'll have a very large journey ahead of you, which is possible.  I don't think neg only SZ exists but it is typically the first thing people find when beginning to search and it is a symptom group that relates to a plethora of other disorders stemming from many other causes all having similar systems interrupted, blocked, or damaged.

 

https://sites.google...eatmentroadmap/

 

That should get you started.

Edited by AlmostEasy, 13 July 2016 - 04:09 AM.

[Londonscouser]

I'm the exact same, I've been experiencing the negative symptoms you describe for at least 3-4 years... I have 3 uncles with schizophrenia, but not immediate family members.

 

I was waiting for the day I would experience a positive symptom, but i'm 22, and it hasn't come yet. For 4 months, I quit smoking cannabis, started to exercise / eat healthy, and the negative symptoms got about 20-30% better.

 

I've been smoking weed everyday for the last 8 months, and I still feel the partial reduction of negative symptoms from my abstinence of weed, which is why i will quit soon for good.

 

It should note i have been taking L-theanine and taurine. These are the only two substances i take on a daily basis. I've heard vitamins c and e are quite good for negative symptoms as well.

[Iamnobodi]

I'm the exact same, I've been experiencing the negative symptoms you describe for at least 3-4 years... I have 3 uncles with schizophrenia, but not immediate family members.

 

I was waiting for the day I would experience a positive symptom, but i'm 22, and it hasn't come yet. For 4 months, I quit smoking cannabis, started to exercise / eat healthy, and the negative symptoms got about 20-30% better.

 

I've been smoking weed everyday for the last 8 months, and I still feel the partial reduction of negative symptoms from my abstinence of weed, which is why i will quit soon for good.

 

It should note i have been taking L-theanine and taurine. These are the only two substances i take on a daily basis. I've heard vitamins c and e are quite good for negative symptoms as well.

 

Londonscouser cutting out all drugs will only help with the symptoms. I've also quit alcohol and it has helped tremendously for me. 

[Londonscouser]

Yeah I plan to stop the drugs I consume (cannabis + nicotine), eat healthy/exercise for a long period of time, and essentially re-wire parts of my  brain, which will probably take years.

 

There are times that i think one day I might experience positive symptoms, which scares the living daylights out of me. I will probably know by the age of 30...so 8 years of worrying !

On the other hand, I've lived a wonderful life. Best childhood imaginable. I've seen Liverpool come back from 3-0 against AC Milan in the champions league final. I've been fairly blessed.

 

[Jordan23]

From what I understand the negative symptoms of Schizophrenia are typically associated with a dopamine deficiency. They are more likened to be associated with depression if it is just those symptoms alone. 

[PeaceAndProsperity]

^There are people who experience "low dopamine" or "negative symptoms," who are helped by dopamine stimulants but often only for a very short few minutes or hours until everything goes back to before the stimulants were taken. I seem to be one of those.

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

^There are people who experience "low dopamine" or "negative symptoms," who are helped by dopamine stimulants but often only for a very short few minutes or hours until everything goes back to before the stimulants were taken. I seem to be one of those.

 

Yup, just like me. I've felt amazing on ethylphenidate. 

[Mind_Paralysis]

 

^There are people who experience "low dopamine" or "negative symptoms," who are helped by dopamine stimulants but often only for a very short few minutes or hours until everything goes back to before the stimulants were taken. I seem to be one of those.

 

Yup, just like me. I've felt amazing on ethylphenidate. 

 

 

ETHYLphenidate?!

Why on Earth... mate, Ethyl is far more short-acting than Methylphenidate, it's got much more of a "kick"-induction - and to be frank, that increases the chances of it triggering a psychosis, since it's more prone to triggering mania than Methylphenidate.

 

If you believe yourself to have Negative Schizophrenic symptoms - why would you take something like that?

 

I hope you realize that was very stupid, and could actually have triggered worse symptoms than you already have.

 

 

However, with that said, I'm not entirely convinced that you really have negative Schizo, if there's no diagnosis, then it could be any number of things.

Unlike RBU, I'm quite in favour of a proper diagnosis and dissection of your issues - try and get a proper evaluation by a psychiatrist - there's nothing saying you actually have to take the drugs they prescribe - because you're clearly not violent or dangerous or what-have-you, but - you will actually know, for certain, what ails you.

 

Well... you'll know more.

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

Easy mate. EPH is not that bad, really. I was in such a bad state that I didn't care if I get psychosis. I just wanted to feel something, some kind of stimulation and I got it. 

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

Oh, newset MRI showed Hakim's syndrome (Normal Pressure Hydrocephalus) and I'm waiting for visit in hospital. 

[Londonscouser]

good luck Michael

[Mind_Paralysis]

Yeah, good luck mate. =) I hope you get a knowledgable and capable Doctor.

 

Meanwhile, can we perhaps suggest some compound to help him, if his problems are really caused by Hakim's Syndrome, which is apparently also called Normal Pressure Hydrocephalus - NPH?

 

Normal Pressure Hydrocephalus overview

http://emedicine.med...150924-overview

 

Would NSI-189 or Dihexa be the drug of choice here? I'm leaning more towards Dihexa, since synaptogenesis seems like a more generally enhancing mechanism - NSI-189 affects specific parts... I don't think the PFC is one of them.

 

This reminds me... recent data from fMRI-scans confirms that Schizo is a form of degenerative disease! It causes wild synaptic pruning, I believe - and Dihexa causes synaptic GROWTH! : D

 

Perhaps... Dihexa... is the ultimate... treatment of schizo?

[Galaxyshock]

This reminds me... recent data from fMRI-scans confirms that Schizo is a form of degenerative disease! It causes wild synaptic pruning, I believe --

 

Was this on schizophrenics taking antipsychotics? APs are neurotoxic, known to shrink the brain and decrease gray matter. I don't think schizophrenia itself is neurodegenerative but the medications people take (or are forced to use) to treat it.

[Mind_Paralysis]

 

This reminds me... recent data from fMRI-scans confirms that Schizo is a form of degenerative disease! It causes wild synaptic pruning, I believe --

 

Was this on schizophrenics taking antipsychotics? APs are neurotoxic, known to shrink the brain and decrease gray matter. I don't think schizophrenia itself is neurodegenerative but the medications people take (or are forced to use) to treat it.

 

 

No, not quite.

First, Schizophrenia really - is - a neurodegenerative disease - just like depression.
 

Synaptic pruning a key element in schizophrenic pathology

http://www.nytimes.c...psychiatry.html

 

Possible gene responsible for the process

https://www.nih.gov/...k-deconstructed

 

Second, there is some evidence, but not entirely clear-cut, that old-school typical antipsychotics like Haloperidol causes more shrinking of gray matter, but the case is in complete reverse when it comes to atypicals (pretty much EVERY first-line drug used to treat the disorder these days) - they actually CAUSE NEUROGENESIS! : D

 

Atypicals impair emotion and some areas of cognition, but those impairments are wholly temporary.

 

Neuroplasticity and Antipsychotics in Treatment of Schizophrenia

http://www.esciencec...2.php?aid=56182

 

In conclusion, there is strong evidence that atypical antipsychotics possess an important role in neuroplasticity and neuroprotection when administered to schizophrenic patients. The results of many studies pointed to this obvious neuroprotective effect and to the capacity of neurogenesis of SGAs.

 

 

Improving cognition in schizophrenia with antipsychotics that elicit neurogenesis through 5-HT(1A) receptor activation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24423786

 

The differences between typical and atypical antipsychotics: the effects on neurogenesis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22945197

 

 

See the difference? They've even got a bead on a potential mechanism: 5-ht1a modulation.

 

Now, as you may be aware, there's a NEW atypical antipsychotic on the market - BREXPIPRAZOL (rexulti). This is the first atypical to get official FDA endorsement as treatment of depression.

 

If I was to vaguer a guess... I would say, since Brexpiprazol seems to have even more atypical properties than regular atypicals (there's talk about renaming it a SDAM instead - Serotonin Dopamine Activity Modulator) it also causes MORE neurogenesis than any other previously discovered antipsychotic.

 

 

IN CLOSING:

 

You probably realize that there is an experimental medication which may well turn out to be the best antipsychotic ever made: DIHEXA - causing synaptic growth really does seem like precisely the mechanism necessary to truly treat schizophrenic symptoms.

 

But... let's not take it for granted - it may well turn out that it only treats a few symptoms, and not the whole shebang. In theory it should be very useful as an adjunctive though.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

This reminds me... recent data from fMRI-scans confirms that Schizo is a form of degenerative disease! It causes wild synaptic pruning, I believe - and Dihexa causes synaptic GROWTH! : D

 

Perhaps... Dihexa... is the ultimate... treatment of schizo?

Shouldn't men be less likely to be schizophrenic then since they have more synapses due to higher androgen production and exposure?

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

Oh, and one of the mine MRI pictures looks like this: https://i.gyazo.com/...148ff8faa59.png

Why so much space @ pfc? Doc said that there's no atrophy, only enlarged space.

[Mind_Paralysis]

 

This reminds me... recent data from fMRI-scans confirms that Schizo is a form of degenerative disease! It causes wild synaptic pruning, I believe - and Dihexa causes synaptic GROWTH! : D

 

Perhaps... Dihexa... is the ultimate... treatment of schizo?

Shouldn't men be less likely to be schizophrenic then since they have more synapses due to higher androgen production and exposure?

 

 

No. As far as I understand it, we need more synapses than women, for certain functions - muscular control in particular. Hence, the decline may hit us just as bad anyway.

That, or perhaps said androgen production actually enhances the process - speeding it up, even! Remember, this is usually a fully functional, important function in the brain - unnecessary synapses use up a lot of energy that could be going towards other neural functions, and the male body actually uses 25% more energy than the female - in a RESTING state! 0_o That may also account for it - perhaps energy conservation, hence pruning, is more important in us males.

Edited by Stinkorninjor, 14 August 2016 - 09:40 PM.

[Mind_Paralysis]

Oh, and one of the mine MRI pictures looks like this: https://i.gyazo.com/...148ff8faa59.png

Why so much space @ pfc? Doc said that there's no atrophy, only enlarged space.

 

No idea, Michael. If I was to hazard some kind of random guess, I would assume it has something to do with your NPH - perhaps this space is the result of the liquid that gathers?

 

Dunno'. What? He REALLY didn't say anything else?? Kind of odd, of the Dr.
 

[Galaxyshock]

Second, there is some evidence, but not entirely clear-cut, that old-school typical antipsychotics like Haloperidol causes more shrinking of gray matter, but the case is in complete reverse when it comes to atypicals (pretty much EVERY first-line drug used to treat the disorder these days) - they actually CAUSE NEUROGENESIS! : D

 

In this study Olanzapine (atypical antipsychotic), just like Haloperidol, caused a significant reduction in brain volume that affects both gray and white matter:

http://www.nature.co...l/1300710a.html

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

 

Oh, and one of the mine MRI pictures looks like this: https://i.gyazo.com/...148ff8faa59.png

Why so much space @ pfc? Doc said that there's no atrophy, only enlarged space.

 

No idea, Michael. If I was to hazard some kind of random guess, I would assume it has something to do with your NPH - perhaps this space is the result of the liquid that gathers?

 

Dunno'. What? He REALLY didn't say anything else?? Kind of odd, of the Dr.
 

 

 

Well, you're probably right. I wasn't in the hospital yet, there's no info about atrophy on the results paper. So, If I'm lucky and if they will remove the extra fluid, then, just maybe, it will get better. One of the NPH symptoms is apathy/dementia. 

[Mind_Paralysis]

 

Second, there is some evidence, but not entirely clear-cut, that old-school typical antipsychotics like Haloperidol causes more shrinking of gray matter, but the case is in complete reverse when it comes to atypicals (pretty much EVERY first-line drug used to treat the disorder these days) - they actually CAUSE NEUROGENESIS! : D

 

In this study Olanzapine (atypical antipsychotic), just like Haloperidol, caused a significant reduction in brain volume that affects both gray and white matter:

http://www.nature.co...l/1300710a.html

 

 

There's a few problems with your reference here - firstly, it's from 2005, and it's only one study. The review I posted was from 2015 and included a lot of other studies.

 

And then there's this study, from 2004, which shows that Olanzapine reverses some of the potential damage from Haloperidol.

 

Olanzapine counteracts reduction of brain-derived neurotrophic factor and TrkB receptors in rat hippocampus produced by haloperidol.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/14746882
 

Now, your study was on macaque Apes, while mine is on rats - so I suppose one can chalk it up to some kind of metabolic difference between the two species, but the 2015 review included humans as well, showing neuroptrophic effects.

 

As I understand it, this is a long-running debate, regarding what the effects are...

 

But, to me, the newer review is proof that the atypicals increase neurogenesis.

 

I found another review which looked specifically at this, and it appeared as if the reductions were much smaller in Olanzapine-use than in Haloperidol-use. One possibility is of course that it's dose-dependant - depending on high or low dose, you get different results, with Olanzapine in particular.

 

For instance, good ol' Fluoxetine poops out as well

https://molecularbra.../1756-6606-4-10

 

 

I suppose a final possibility is that it's the more modulating Atypicals which have the positive effect - e.g Aripiprazole and Brexpiprazole.

Otherwise, how do you explain the fact that Brexpiprazole works on depression, according to this study? (which got it approved by the FDA for MDD treatment)

 

Lundbeck Reports Positive Phase III Results Of Depression Treatment Brexpiprazole

http://www.clinicall...xpiprazole-0001

 

Over 90% of patients completed the randomized phase of the trial

 

 

That amount of patients completing the trial in perticular, is rather encouraging, wouldn't you say? As far as I understand it, that's actually way, WAY above average when it comes to AD-trials, so either these are the most patient and abiding patients ever, or it's damn good stuff.

 

But you have a point - Brex ain't Abilify or Olanzapine, it may be something all-new.
 

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

So... I learned that simple schizophrenia is caused by... enlarged ventricles in the brain. 

[Mind_Paralysis]

So... I learned that simple schizophrenia is caused by... enlarged ventricles in the brain. 

 

What?? Curious... Is that the conclusion your Dr. has come to, regarding your own issues? (did extensive ct-scanning show that you have enlarged ventricles, which then produce too much cerebrospinal-fluid?)

 

Do you have a link regarding this?

Otherwise, as far as I know, simple Schizophrenia, which as I understand it is nothing but the negative symptoms - no paranoia or hallucinations, is actually caused by alterations to the PFC - the mGlur-receptors to be specific.

 

It's why I've been dying for someone with negative symptoms to actually try Fasoracetam - it should in theory be highly effective - yet we won't know until someone actually tries it.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

It's why I've been dying for someone with negative symptoms to actually try Fasoracetam - it should in theory be highly effective - yet we won't know until someone actually tries it.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but shouldn't so many other things target the exact same mGlu receptors and if there is underactivity at them, it should be evident by the reaction to taking any of them?

Like NAC, etc.